I was encouraged to read the letter by Jonathan Olson with the central point on the folly of the “one true way” doctrine and I applaud Jon’s courage in taking the conversation there. Some may question how we get from CSA to the “one true way” issue but it’s vital to understand that CSA exists anywhere a skewed hierarchical organizational structure exists. Large corporations. Professional sports. Religion. The military. Extended families. These are all systems that have a specific hierarchical organization that is intensely revered from within them. And these are all systems where sexual abuse and other kinds of abuse flourish. As serious as the CSA issue is – and is rightly being addressed more aggressively than it has ever been in the past – it remains a symptom of a far deeper issue of self-righteousness in the church, as Jonathan has correctly pointed out.
There’s a common thread amongst us all and shown on this site and in the comments; that we’re fighting to preserve the church. We don’t actually want to burn the church down. NOT because it’s the one true way, but because it’s good. It’s not perfect, it’s good. And that’s good enough. And maybe more importantly because it’s OURS. It’s what we’ve grown up with, or it’s what we’ve come to love through a friend at school or a workmate or a random invitation on a community centre bulletin board. And we’d all be lying if we didn’t admit to having enjoyed many days of encouragement and hope while going to meetings and conventions and that many of our closest friends are also professing. And we’d all also probably be lying if we didn’t admit to being uncomfortable with the unwritten rules and regulations that have no scriptural merit. It’s one thing to abide by a rule that is simply a tradition, Jesus warned specifically against that in Mark 7 and in John 15. It’s another thing altogether – and not in a good way – to abide by a rule under the pretext that it achieves righteousness when in fact it’s an empty tradition. Tradition in and of itself is not evil. We love our hymns. They’re familiar to us and that’s okay. God created us, God created music, God created our brains that migrate to a certain amount of traditional “comfort”. God doesn’t despise that in us. And although this may be open to other interpretations, in Matt 6:23 when Jesus said “But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!” it could mean that if the things that we think are Light and righteous are actually things that are meaningless (darkness), how much greater is THAT darkness. Because now we’re distracted from the true light . . .JESUS. If we can get a false sense of security by what we wear or because we don’t have a TV or a bottle of wine in our home, or because we think we have a membership card in the “one true way”, then the enemy has us right where he wants us. He has us completely distracted from Jesus as the real way and the truth and the life.
I suggest that many of us would agree there is much about our church that is right and good. Clearly there’s a growing mistrust in the leadership of the ministry (understatement), but I’ve no doubt every single one of us knows some workers that we love and respect deeply and that point us to Jesus, instead of just pointing us to a religion. And the reality is that our church HAS helped direct us to Jesus, which is exactly what it’s supposed to do. Sometimes it’s been done in spite of itself, but it’s been done, and here we are. And many of us want to keep going to meetings in some way shape or form. But the minute we start worshipping the church, instead of where it should be pointing us (Jesus), that’s when we’ve gone adrift. The minute we revere the vessel that holds the water more than the water that quenches our heart and soul, that’s when the water spills and we wake up to the harsh reality that licking the cup doesn’t quench our thirst.
Jesus didn’t pull any punches in declaring that religion was over, and the veil would be rent. He was now THE way. The law pointed us to Him, but now that He’d arrived, the law could be put away, made obsolete (Heb 8:13). And this is not to suggest that anyone is esteeming the old law, but the point is that Jesus was trying to show us that the old law, and all religious law in general, was no longer needed now that we could have a relationship directly with God. At that wedding in the 2nd chapter of John, Jesus could have turned the water into wine in any vessel. Surely there were empty bottles or skins laying around everywhere. But he chose to use the pots full of water specifically meant to be used for ceremonial hand washing (same ceremonial handwashing he mocked in Mark 7). He wasn’t just performing a miracle, he was making a mockery of the tradition of ceremonial handwashing, a mockery of trusting in religion. And yet here we are, some 2000 years later, with new versions of ceremonial handwashing, new laws, albeit “softer laws”, but laws nonetheless, that are just a distraction from Jesus as the way and the truth.
Doing certain things because we believe that’s how they were done in the first century church is a noble, and possibly even worthy cause. But trying to prove that our church is the continuation of the first church is flawed at its core when Jesus himself promised that He would be with us. Jesus was unimpressed in Matthew 3:9 with with their lineage connecting back to Abraham. And Jesus would be unimpressed today with the claim to be a religious continuation of the first century church. If we focus on Jesus, then THAT’s the connection. Not lineage. Not provenance. The historical reality is that our church comes out of the radical reformation that followed the primary 16th century reformation, out of which came the anabaptist movement, of which we maintain many of the hallmarks of, for what remain as many good reasons. And all that is OKAY. It matters not where we’ve come from, it matters where we’re going and what we believe in. And if we believe we’re spirit led – as I’ve heard said often recently – then it’s time to put our faith where our mouth is and cease with this borderline blasphemy of thinking we’re saved because we belong to the correct religion. There’s a big part of me that wants to post my name to this. But I’m committed to “staying with the ship” so to speak; to fight to make it right from within instead of fleeing into the night. And to be clear, I applaud the ones that have left the church but continue to meet and enjoy fellowship. I’m not quite there yet and I fear that we still have a long way to go before comments like mine will be well received by certain workers with influence. I am the elder of a precious little Sunday morning meeting in our home and as long as we’re not ostracized like some have been, we can slowly but surely be part of a rising crescendo of voices from within the church. So, I won’t post my name, in an attempt to try to keep my place so that our family can try to uphold a standard of truth from the inside, and to slowly effect change. I know many are doing the same, some quietly, some loudly, but God sees and hears all.
A brother and friend from Canada.
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This is the best submission I have ever read on this site.
Amen to all of it !
I agree!
Your and Jonathan Olson’s enthusiasm and ideas. What about those friends and who are left quite lukewarm by what you present? Don’t see Christ in it What if workers, young and old are as equally unenthused ?
I guess there will be enough of you who be enthused? Will you have ministry? What will that look like? Married ministers, doing it as well as holding down a job/business?
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I certainly saw the spirit of Christ in this letter. This elder didn’t lay out any ultimatums that everyone has to agree with him on every point. No two people agree on everything, yet we can have fellowship together. If someone really loves the form and disagrees with the author to the point that they can’t have fellowship with the author, then that’s on them. I know there are some people out there who do not have a strong grasp of the spirit so they cling to the form. This talk about the fallacy of the form must be scary for them, but hopefully they can come to love and embrace the spirit. Philippians 2:12 “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”.
You are correct in pointing out that he also didn’t lay out a plan as to what the ministry should look like. Keep in mind that there is no requirement to know and provide the 100% correct answer in order to point out that something is wrong. I certainly don’t know exactly what the right answer is, but I do know that overseers with lots of power, zero accountability, and a loyalty to the ministry above the flock is wrong. I think that the ministry does need to spend more time in the world rather than living a sheltered life where 90% of their interactions are with friends who are taking extra care to adhere to the form around them. Jesus and the disciples spent a lot of time interacting with non-believers and I think the workers should do the same. I don’t know what that increased interaction looks like. I imagine those details regarding the ministry’s structure and interaction with the world will take some time and a lot of prayer in order to figure out.
Well said! We don’t know and don’t have to know at the moment, as the spirit will lead if we let Him. We just know a major change must take place. And I believe it will. I think we are already seeing the start of it. Praise the Lord!
Amen! You have stated all of my thoughts so clearly. Thank you for taking the time and having the courage to be part of the rising crescendo of voices.
Thank you for all you said, I agree. May God continue opening peoples eyes to these very things!
I love this letter! I can’t stop reading it. You have expressed my feelings about so many things and opened my eyes to some scripture as I’ve never read it before. Thank you!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts – it takes courage to do so. How do you feel about the lack of financial transparency within the ministry? I believe that it is the elephant in the room that nobody wants to discuss. Decades of CSA, SA, adult abuse, and attitudes of entitlement, leads me to question the money side of our fellowship. I think we have plenty of evidence to show that “Money doesn’t corrupt character, it reveals it.” And the fact that many overseers, especially in Canada, are very quiet rather than addressing the coverups that they’ve been involved in, indicates that as long as the money is there, and the friends aren’t asking, the status quo remains.
I have no regrets or concerns about any donations I’ve given to workers or conventions. AND I have NO interest or concerns with what EITHER choose to do with donations OTHERS make.
I’m a little mystified as to why any others feel inclined to worry about what is done with donations THEY haven’t given.
If you don’t trust them, don’t give them any. That’s how most humans choose the Charity they donate to.
I personally am not real interested in the financial part of this whole issue. And I’m sorry if others are.
Junior Jones, I guess you are OK with your donations being used for paying of hotel rooms and prostitutes? That seems what the original guy that died was doing who kicked off this whole mess! I personally am not ok with that and am sure that is why many are asking for transparency.
Not sure what makes you think you know what MY donations have been and for what purpose or motivation. But I guess once you post online you have no secrets? 🤷🏼♂️
To calm your fears, I don’t have enuff $ to donate much of anything, but I’ll assure when I DO, I know what it is used for. 😊
If money is not available it makes many things impossible. It opens doors that before where shut. While I was in the work there were times that – between my companion and I – all we had was $5. That made it impossible to do anything but what we were entrusted to do. With another companion she received a few thousand dollars – and she used it all right – but NOT for the furtherance of the gospel but to get what SHE wanted. I received nothing of that. So money IS important and so is its transparency. .
I agree it’s another area where more transparency is needed. For sure. And it’s not unrelated to the “one true way” trap in that it connects to this notion that we are not a formal church, and things just magically happen. Many of the friends are highly qualified business people and I’m confident that money matters could be handled much better than they currently are, if we had a significantly revised hierarchical org chart.
I love this!!!!
This is the most spirit led letter on here and the place I’ve been praying to see our fellowship for 15 years.
Yes!
Well said.
We find ourselves in a nearly identical position; recognizing there are many issues that are distractions from the true purpose of our service, yet simultaneously having found great value over many years in the workers, friends, meetings, AND structures of our organized-unorganized group. The CSA hurricane is a catalyst for us to have a healthy examination of what belongs and what should be removed.
To explain further regarding structure: What comes to mind is the “wood, hay, stubble” mentioned in I Corinthians 3, which was consumed by the fire that inevitably comes. Paul mentioned it in relation to an individual, but I believe it’s relevant for the church as a whole, as well. The trivial falls away, the essential remains. However, refining is not a comfortable process, and has the potential to be very destructive if uncontrolled. We do want to be careful to preserve the *core* of the structures of our group that do a good job of bolstering our faith.
For example, conventions can be a wonderful reminder of the connections we have with people from across our region, country, and world, as well as a much-needed deep dive into the Scripture. Conventions can also be a purely social event, a huge time-suck for upkeep, or an offensive display of opulence (either personally or collectively).
A unified examination of *all* our traditions seems overdue! Maybe a good exercise in this regard is to consider what Jesus said “…the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.” If our structures, habits, and traditions are requiring more energy and time invested into them than what we are getting back spiritually, then change is needed.
One last thought: I’ve realized over the last while that the very thing that can be a thorn for one can be a comfort to another. The 90-yr old grandma can be reinforced in her personal spiritual convictions and vows when she puts her hair up into a bun in the same way as those in the Old Testament were reminded of their spiritual charter through various naturally oriented commandments for clothing and conduct. A 20-yr old woman may have a very different reaction to the very same habit, and forcing her to conform to an arbitrary tradition causes more spiritual harm than good. We need to respect one another’s personal convictions. “Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.”
Regarding financial transparency, this can become immensely complicated. Beyond the legal/tax implications, there is a huge logistical hurdle if complete transparency and oversight is desired.
Donations happen in a diffuse manner, and unevenly across time and geography. Most don’t want to draw attention to themselves, so do so in an anonymous way. Donations often are in cash form, or by giving some tangible item (a car, a speaker system for a meeting, a replacement laptop). People also donate larger amounts in their wills. All these items present different challenges, and would require a very significant cultural shift across everyone in the church.
I advocate for a barebones approach – more than we have now, but not so much that whatever is envisioned doesn’t become its own distracting structure, with endless committees, reports, officers, elections, etc.
What would work for me is an accounting of the banking transactions at the overseer level. The cash donations to individual workers, payment of halls for gospel mtgs, equipment at convention etc is not necessary to account for.
At the overseer level, we don’t need to see who has donated, but cash in and a detailed accounting of disbursements is important. Again, many details of disbursements aren’t necessary, just categorized in a standard accounting format.
At the overseer level, it should be handled by, or at least audited by, a professional outside accounting firm.
I Agree, Other Elder. Financial issues are not a priority of mine or any in my fellowship that I aware of. Simplest approach is used your own judgement: Don’t trust? Don’t give. Didn’t give? Not yr biz.
I find leaving money in wills to the ministry a troubling concept. Is that considered a ‘dead’ sacrifice? (I’m not trying to use a pun). If the ministry is to go out without purse or scrip (Mark 6:8) how can it be right for large amounts to be ‘willed’. Who controls that money and who has direct access to it? If the overseers have direct access to what could be millions and millions of dollars, that is a recipe for disaster. If people want money to be used wisely they should leave it to people they trust to use it wisely in support of the ministry as needs arise. It is a fact in some places that the ministry has aggressively SOLICITED for wills, how can that be right on any level!! (As an aside, I think it is wrong for money the ministry controls today due to inheriting wealth from wills, to be used for building convention/church buildings. 40+ years ago it made sense to have it on private farms where everyone pitched in, but today with regulation and cost and a largely non-ag society it isn’t working so well. Venues can be easily rented for the purpose and doesn’t require the workers to be distracted from their mission of preaching the gospel for 4-5-6 months per year (Acts 6:4), but that’s another topic).
I agree with you Brendan. I have been astounded at the sums I have heard some overseers have at their disposal(yes millions). Not so much the go in faith ministry we are led to believe which I believe is ant the root of a whole host of problems we are seeing.
The way forward is for the Friends/Elders to look after finances and facilities. The ministry group are poor managers due to lack of experience. There are some really talented and experienced Friends who could look after conventions, special meetings and house meetings. Workers should have no say in who participates or attends meetings…..it should be an individual collective meeting decision.
Agree completely. In the real world, donated money to charity organizations has strict handling rules and transparency requirements. We should have the same for any bank accounts.
Goods given, ie cars, speaker systems, equipment and cash donations to field workers doesnt require so much management (unless it becomes excessive?). But large amounts into bank accounts, totally does.
This was so encouraging to read. Thank you for posting this. I have come to feel the same and so many others that have spoken to me feel exactly like this. We cannot bring change with human strength but we can bring the way of Jesus clearer within our fellowship by praying. Spirit lead prayerful communication is a way forward.
Jesus never mentioned clothing and it is a form of control that we see in other denominations, and we cringe at that, but take a look at our own clothing customs and appearance. (Really this is just the women that are being condemned if they dress like 2023 the men already have the freedom to dress like they live in 2023.)
Because we have been born of the spirit of truth, that leads us into all truth, it allows us to live in this world and the spirit shows us where to draw the line, with all inventions, activities, possessions, clothing and life styles that we confront in whatever day we live in. The spirit of truth is the answer to all our questions not a set of rules that uses outward control to force us to submit to the rules of man rather than the spirit.
Rules have consequences if you break them. This is the reason most of us are very afraid to add our real identity for fear of retaliation. This is so wrong!
Jesus did show us the gathering for fellowship together to be in a home and the ministry to go two by two. There is strength given, by God, to live accordingly. When man starts controlling these doctrines that Jesus left us, then burdens and division starts to occur.
Jesus made it very clear that he did not invalidate, did not use emotional abuse to control, did not lie, did not use spite or malice and on and on it goes.
Judging others according to a man made rule is actually self righteous and judgemental, both of which Jesus actually condemns.
God cannot lie and that is why throughout the bible God tells publicly the wrong as well as the good of His people. If God covered up the wrong God would be lying and GOD cannot lie.
These last two letters have been eye opening to how prevalent the “only way”, and “trace it back to Christ” doctrine apparently are. Ya’ll are going to think my head is buried in the sand, but I don’t have memory of either of these being directly or specifically spoken. (Could some of it be subject to interpretation?) I feel like I’ve heard it alluded to by some older workers, but it’s not memorable to me, since I would have assumed it was just outdated thinking. I just have always felt like most of us were careful to let the spirit judge. I just can’t imagine that the majority of people & workers currently agree with and embrace the “only way” and “traceable back to Christ” doctrine. I would love to see the survey results on this. (Just put the results in a bottle & float them to my island, if you please.)
It was loud and clear when I was growing up in the 1960’s and beyond. That sort of preaching is much more muted over the last couple of decades. It started to decline quickly after the Secret Sect book became well distributed in the late 1980’s.
Thanks BGM, that makes sense, as my experience is only from the last couple of decades. Thankfully my parents didn’t agree with and pass that doctrine along to me, since they would have been of the loud and clear generation.
I was born in the late 80s and was definitely taught that this is the “one right way”. I remember hearing from the platform at convention, specific denominations named as wrong. My mom still 100% believes that doctrine, as do many of the people in my parents’ meeting. Not exactly sure where my dad stands on the topic, haven’t conversed with him about it. But it still very prevalent in the Midwestern US.
The belief remains common.
Mferguson,
This was just said by a sister worker in our area for special mtgs when a young woman let the workers know she could no longer stand behind an institution with so much corruption, and would no longer be attending fellow mtgs. One sister worker acknowledged an understanding but the other said “well you know this IS the ONLY right way” so it is alive and kicking strong among many of the workers I believe. Count yourself fortunate if you’ve never felt or heard that mind set
Yikes!!!! “Judge not . . . . .”
Where I live only way-ism is mentioned quite a bit depending on the worker in the field. It’s not said point blank, more like frequent mentions of “those in other churches” (followed by some negative comment) or talking about how those who take a name for their church (which is pretty much every church but us) are glorifying themselves but we just want to glorify Jesus. Another example of how this viewpoint can be mentioned without directly saying it is when someone attends a Christian church and is interested in meetings. If they decide to continue going to a their (non-meeting) church and a worker or friend regretfully shares this news and says something along the lines of “well if they are honest they will come to meetings eventually” or “they just aren’t willing” it doesn’t take a lot of reading between the lines to see that what they are actually saying is that those who do not profess are considered to be dishonest and unwilling- ie not true Christians. The whole thing where those who attend meeting are called “professing” (as in professing godliness/proclaiming Christ) and those who do not attend (even if they are Christians) are called “worldly” or “the world” is further subtle reinforcement of this idea. An example of subtle “direct line back to Christ” preaching that I heard recently was in gospel meeting where the worker talked about “when Jesus started out in the ministry…” which to me seemed like a subtle way to imply that He was a worker. I’m not sure how many believe this/how many do not but I can say that as someone who is questioning these thoughts / does not fully subscribe to these teachings I have felt very much in the minority. My thought is, people can say stuff like this and not ruffle feathers/offend many or get “corrected”. This tells me that it’s a fairly common or accepted belief. It’s not considered that controversial to preach a subtle only-way message. But if someone spoke from the platform saying the opposite I am quite sure it would ruffle feathers/be considered very progressive or controversial. In my own conversations exploring and gently questioning these aspects of our belief I have been met largely with shock and horror or very very noncommittal answers. Some believe others will be saved but that it’s more likely they have a chance if they do not attend any church at all, which I find very surprising. If as a church we were more focused on Christ and less focused on ourselves and those around us I think we could be more fruitful.
Thanks, I do see it more clearly after you tell me what to look for & how they say it without saying it. I still hope we aren’t as much a minority as you feel, but sadly I must defer to your experience on that point.
I’m sorry for the response you’ve received to your interaction on this topic, but I feel good about the growing prospect of a different response in the future.
We literally heard at special meeting this spring that “this started on the shores of Galilee”. Um, no, this started with William Irvine and Edward Cooney right before 1900. But since they were both excommunicated, we’ve swept all that under the rug.
Having joined this church in the past 10 years or so with no prior knowledge of or exposure to it, I can say from my perspective there was an obvious prevailing sentiment in the manner that Tellmethestory mentioned. But not only that, I’ve heard both the “only way” and “traceable back to Christ” mentioned directly in gospel meetings, conventions, and even more frequently in testimonies from friends. (Western BC, Canada area for context)
This letter leaves a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes. It gives me such hope. Thank you thank you thank you.
this is just a curious point.not fault finding.As i have noticed when on other sites(not like this one).Some are political, and i really don’t care about politics,just sometimes it passes the time.But they have thes annoying pop-ups advertising.I have come to understand companies have to get permission and pay to put their advertising on their site.I am just asking.I thought this site was just info .not for profit.I know i am ignorant of internet sites because i don,t have one.But maybe you could enlighten why these annoying advertising pop-ups appear?
Thanks for the feedback Darrell. Revenue from the ads go directly to WordPress in exchange for free hosting. The ads were rarely seen until the website got busy a few weeks ago. Hosting with WordPress has served us well but maybe it’s time to consider alternative hosting arrangements.
Download and use the browser called Brave and the ads are gone.
I can only imagine the traffic that wings is experiencing since March. I hear people are giving up “Words With Friends” to read the latest here (pun intended).
Almost 1 million views since March. It is not being monetized by WINGS and won’t be.
thanks for the information and gettingh back to me!!
Someone suggested using the Brave browser. I use it too (it operates almost identical to Chrome), and it does eliminate the ads.
Mferguson,
This was just said by a sister worker in our area for special mtgs when a young woman let the workers know she could no longer stand behind an institution with so much corruption, and would no longer be attending fellow mtgs. One sister worker acknowledged an understanding but the other said “well you know this IS the ONLY right way” so it is alive and kicking strong among many of the workers I believe. Count yourself fortunate if you’ve never felt or heard that mind set
Absolutely! Still very much alive and kicking!
When our children leave home without “professing”, you’ll hear the workers and friends say, “don’t worry, they know WHAT’S right… they’ll come back.” It doesn’t matter if they already have a close relationship with the Lord right where they are; its not the ‘WHO’ (Jesus) that matters to the workers, it’s the ‘WHAT’! (And the ‘WHAT’ is the “system” on which William Irvine & George Walker built our foundation; the foundation that is now crumbling!
Thank you, absolutely agree !
Jesus did show us the gathering for fellowship together to be in a home and the ministry to go two by two. I believe this is the principle behind, this is the only way, and that is actually not wrong but quite right, as Jesus and his teachings are the only way. God gives power and strength to live accordingly.
I looked in other ways and I never felt God in them as they did not follow these teaching from the bible. So I do know that God blesses us as we follow the teachings of Jesus. I know, like Peter, that Jesus has the words of eternal life and there is no other place to go, but to Jesus for words of eternal life.
Problem’s arise and did arise immediately after Jesus left this earth when men’s ideas start to be taught instead or mixed up with Jesus teaching.
I very much appreciate your thoughts! I just wanted to add that Jesus did not designate a “right place” for worship. True, the home is a great place! However, Jesus seemed to have spent more time in fellowship in the garden than he did in homes. (Luke 22:39+) So the question becomes: Which place is the “right place” to worship?
Lovingly – This point of view/understanding is something I have a lot of questions about. I’ve heard it said my whole growing up but in my recent studies (trying to sort out what we do that’s tradition vs scriptural requirement vs just general good practice after all that is going on) I have not yet understood a clear requirement or teaching for either of these practices (two by two ministry, meeting in homes). True, we see it done in scripture. But does that make it a requirement or a “teaching” that must be followed? We also see different methods of gathering and different lifestyles for those sharing the gospel in different places. Sometimes two by two, sometimes three, sometimes even more. Sometimes without a wife sometimes with. When Jesus sent out the 12 and then the 70, there were specific instructions given. One of those was to go two by two. In both instances it is recorded that those groups came back to him. So it seems like those instructions were just for that time? In fact, in Luke 22:35-36 before his death it seems like he is actually telling them those previous instructions about going without money and protection (as he sent them before) have passed and it’s a new time now with new instructions. When he gave the great commission, there really weren’t many specifics at all for the form of things. The way it seems to me (and I admit I may be missing something here? If so I’m open to hearing!) is that the apostles in Acts did things differently from how Jesus sent out the 12 and 70 and the and the focus was entirely on spreading the good news. It wasn’t highly organized. And the apostles in Acts often did not make their own decisions- we see the body of believers choosing multiple times to send Paul somewhere to encourage others or to have him leave town for his own safety. I don’t mean to undermine the encouragement I have gotten from workers or the importance of missionary work/spreading the Gospel/encouraging the flock. But I do question if it is scripturally supported to make this specific method of ministry or meeting in homes only (with the exception of convention buildings) a “gateway” to the Gospel of Christ by saying this is a requirement for being the one true way? I ask these questions with all respect and love.
Dear Tellmethestory.
I concur with what you have to say about the 2×2 ministry, and the location of the church meetings.
When Jesus sent out the 12 and the 70, He gave them specific instructions to “go only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.” He sent the 70 to the same audience saying they were to go to them as He Himself would have, but could not. Under Jewish law, no evidence about events was to be taken as truth except it was to be verified by at least one witness. Hence the Children of Israel would have been more inclined to take the word of two about events. Events such as His teachings, His miracles, His ministry. When He have His commission that go to all the World, I see no specific instructions to go by twos.
That doesn’t mean such witness would not be effective. But we look to the Acts of the Apostles to see how this Truth was brought in that day. There were those going with a single companion, those with no companion, those with 3 and possibly 5 companions. I think we would have to agree, if that were a doctrinal prerequisite, surely the Apostles would have gone that way. So the 2×2 practice does not prove anything about the validity of the ministry, or the fellowship.
As to the in-home meetings, Paul did refer to Elders, and the meetings that were in their homes. But Jesus didn’t. It is possible that it was a convenience. Historical records indicate that Christians gathering in the days before the Emperor Constantine were most certainly severely persecuted. It was likely they would meet where they could, in homes, in caves, by the sea side, in workshops, and so on. The early gatherings were likely among few participants, and so it is eminently probable a little get together in a home was called for.
I appreciate home meetings. I appreciate the sharing and the order and tolerance of views. But I’m not sure it proves anything about “rightness”.
There is also the argument about Jesus instituting the Sunday meeting in “an upper room of someone’s home.” He indeed called for a meeting there. But it was not on Sunday. It was a Friday I believe. It was not a fellowship meeting as we know it. It was for Jesus to participate in the Passover with His disciples – the last act of Him gathering with them prior to the ultimate fulfillment of the Old Covenant.
It was a meal. He instituted the sacraments. But He asked that as often as they were to gather together they were to break bread and consume the cup of wine in respect of him. I might take that to be intended literally. As we gather together over a meal, we should break a loaf (not nibble on a tiny crust we passed around) – to be the scoop or aid to passing food from the communal pot. Or as we drink the celebratory wine, we would pass the cup as was customary. He said to partake of all of it, did he not? So why do we diminish His instructions? But I’m not set on that, I point out some practices were customary, and had meaning to that culture. And why don’t we follow His instructions and commemorate Him in the way he requested as we literally, not figuratively, break bread in fellowship? It does mention wine, not grape juice, does it not?
I say these things not to be contentious, but to illustrate that the form is not more important than the message. Or the message more important than the fellowship, the sharing and the caring. If the form is what justifies us, are we not then Methodists? Wouldn’t we rather show grace and mercy, as we would hope to also receive?
And speaking of grace and mercy, what are we to show to the least among us? And to those “little ones” such as Christ asked to be brought to Him. I think there was a pretty severe penalty proscribed for offending one of them. Surely such offence as great as sexual abuse could hardly have been imagined.
If asked about other Church organizations, would we not consider such behaviour an offence only (maybe) just less than homicide?
May God help us all.
I’m trying to sort issues out also. My motivation is to follow scripture. So as the original author of this thread stated, we have some empty traditions, “unwritten rules and regulations that have no scriptural merit.”
I’m not from a multi-generational family in this church and I’m the only professing person in my family.
Would someone please assist me with sorting out the “form” from God’s will & way? An example could be: is it scriptural that women should not cut their hair? Another example: is it sinful for women to wear pants?
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Further to, and in support of Merle’s statement “that the form is not more important than the message”, in Colossians 2:16-17 Paul said “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Once Christ arrived, many things that were meant to point to Christ were no longer needed. The bible itself entirely points us to Christ. So as risky as this may sound (it’s not actually), when our focus is more on the text of the bible than the purpose of the bible (Christ), we’re on thin ice.
When Jesus had that amazing encounter with the Samaritan women that resulted in Him offering her the living water, she said “Our ancestors worshipped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” Jesus reply was also in line with Merle’s reminder that the message itself and the spirit of worship itself is more important than the form. Jesus said “Woman, believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. . . Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.”
(Incidentally, not only was that person a Samaritan, and a woman out on her own in that historical context, she’d had five husbands and was currently living with #6, and yet that didn’t hinder Jesus from not only letting her speak, but also offering her eternal life. I just mention that as a way of support for the many divorced/remarried people that have been told they must not speak or pray or partake of the remembrance of Christ. This too shall pass.)
How disturbing is it that the author of this letter feels the need to conceal who he is. There is love, empathy, and concern for those in Christ and the fellowship. There are no lies, no directives and no gaslighting.
I look at the comments and those with great feelings and concern choose to leave their names out. This cannot be because of love. It is from fear. Absolute fear of what will happen, how those that we have walked with for years will strike out in a very cruel manner, family that in an instant will turn their back, the very ministry that put predators in homes will accuse you of being evil, etc. You will be shunned, talked about, gossiped about, accused of losing faith, victims of the internet, lost your way, and going to a lost eternity.
I know. I was a long time elder until April of this year. My family and I have experienced each and every one of these for not being silent.
Dear Jim Vallery, Thank you for your courage and love that enables you to stand for what’s right and to take a stand. It helps to encourage the rest of us~
Jay, We also understand that some of the experiences we revealed about ourselves could consequently hurt others involved and that is not fair to them to break their confidence that way. So you make your first posts and admit some things, and then after that you keep posting and people start to learn your personality, kinda the whole online persona thing of our day. Hiding behind an anonymous persona has the ironic effect of magnifying our personality and manifesting our beliefs.
Without a doubt. I fully understand protecting loved ones and those that have given their confidence to you. I am driven and obsessed with doing that myself. This letter implies it was for keeping their place, keeping their part. As you read through the comments this seems to be a common theme. It is a tragedy that in any situation one is fearful of retribution for speaking honest loving truths.
It is said a person has three parts. A public self, private self, and secret self. We are all here because of the very cruel and sick secret self of some have been exposed. Posting anonymously does give one the ability to express their private self. It most certainly has its very useful place. My opinion on the matter is the unfathomable need to protect the public self when one expresses a truthful, honest, Godly, loving, Spirit led private self.
Very well said, Jay
For those afraid to use there names. God for sure knows who you are. So are you more afraid of the workers than you are of God? If that doesn’t scare you to your core, perhaps you might need to reexamine who you worship. We are to only fear God.
Skip Thompson
Do you say the same to the victims of child abuse? You don’t know the individuals circumstances. Most people filter what they say to their family, friends, associates – you are trying to paint someone in an unfair light without any context.
Dear confused,
You’ll notice that this particular thread wasn’t about CSA. It was about an elder giving his thoughts on the fellowship and the ministry.
Then admitting to not giving his name out of fear. To me this letter could be fiction or heresy or someone else possing as an elder. So without the author’s name it really has no value other than nice sound bites.
I stand by my comment.
Skip Thompson
I can vouch for the authenticity of the letter.
I choose to post my name, but only after having a lengthy discussion with all of my family members. My name on here also puts them in a position of facing persecution for my posts. I have a large family, some are more able for criticism and some have been already pushed past what they are comfortable with. For us, it was a family decision for me to post my name. If any member of my family did not feel able to endure more trauma then we are all already experiencing, I would have been anonymous. We all handle trauma differently, some fight, some flee and others freeze, I realize sometimes my response affects my whole family. Empathy for individual situations seems in order.
I understand the reluctance to self-identify. Over 20 years ago a number of us (mostly elders and wives) tried to address systematic abuse of junior workers, excommunications of elders who had spoken up, and issues such as leaning on people to leave estates to the ministry. There was even organizational incorporation for the purpose of tax avoidance on donated funds. Because our concerns were expressed in a “public” meeting, there was no escaping identification.
I can say that facing a room of senior workers such as Eldon Tenniswood, Ernest Nelson, Dale Schultz, Willis Propp, Dick Middleton and others is itself intimidating. Constructive criticism wasn’t really encouraged. We were heard, placated, sent home, and subsequently tolerated.
I have also been witness to harsh criticism by a senior worker toward another overseer. That’s right, overseer. Words like “so-and-so is an evil man. They are Satan in disguise.” This all because they perceived the person a threat in the worker hierarchy. It’s kind of left me disillusioned about the gentle leading of the Holy Spirit. We need to face the problem of leadership by old white men that advocate 19th century attitudes toward relationships, especially toward women. That is another subject.
Since then we have experienced a tepid tolerance by friends and workers. Part of that is, honestly, probably because we are careful about who we trust, and have been sometimes vocal about our concerns. And probably we give off vibes that we are not worshippers of form and worker authority.
There are friends that have always embraced us, and that is appreciated. We are careful about trusting people we are unsure about, and certainly feel there are those who feel the same about us.
I warn that based upon our experience, you will be tolerated and included to a point. But standard treatment of “troublemakers” is to isolate, warn other friends, identify you to new workers in your field as a “problem”, and hope that the issues you raise or concerns expressed will over time just fade away.
Another issue I don’t see directly addressed is this: the only real power over us is use of ostracism . Bad behaviour is dealt with by making you feel outside, not really trustworthy. The part that can really hurt is when family and close friends start to put distance from you. If “friends” would take a stand and not allow this ostracism, there is no other way of enforcement. So I would say – divide and conquer is an effective way of controlling people who are conditioned to respect authority in the church.
In conclusion, our reluctance to self-identify is part of the problem. Expectations are that you will stay quiet, not rock the boat, and eventually you will either conform or leave. But you won’t effect any real change. We need to speak up and be seen. That is the only way real light can be shed on real problems.
A former elder. A heart-sick friend.
Merle, can you send me an email, I would like to connect? garner.shaned@gmail.com
Thanks for your wise words, Merle. It’s very helpful to me, and much appreciated.
One of the reasons I have felt liberty in speaking out, is that I feel like time is of the essence. There’s a time for righteous anger, but if that anger settles into bitterness over time, then that would be very sad. At the same time, I would never want to have a part in a riot, rebellion, etc. The spirit of riot and rebellion is not the way the Lord has dealt with me personally.
I also have a keen interest in the generations following. I’m a natural introvert, and I’d prefer to crawl under a rock and just read and pray. Or sit under a tree somewhere. I don’t need to be included in the tribe that are the movers and shakers. That doesn’t do anything for me. Never has. I personally think that behavior is not in line with the meek and lowly One.
My interests are fully aligned with any who love God, His Righteousness, His Word, and His sheep. Even if I might see things slightly differently from an administrative point of view. I feel like the Holy Spirit will help us “esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake” at the same time that we avoid moving the landmark.
The child sex abuse at the very top, along with the hiding of it, the obstruction and slow-walking, most of all the shameful treatment of victims, all that now quietly speaks for itself. The speed at which this is moving reassures me that God is in it.
Paul Svendsen
Bend, Oregon USA
No one wants to be part of an insurrection. But anyone speaking out, especially to other friends in a forum like this, might well find themselves accused of trying to cause trouble – and that is possible. It’s also true that someone with absolute pure motives could be also so accused in an effort to discredit them. I submit that has been the case before, but of course my opinion is only as good as my reputation, and only as good as my interpretation of events. Honesty compels me to say I cannot possibly be sure of anyone else’s motives or veracity.
Generally in cases like this, it will become believable because there are “many witnesses”. So one person could look at the situation and say troublemakers are trying to undermine the Truth. Others could look and say honest souls are trying to bear witness to truth and nudge us a little closer to honest communication.
Thanks for this Merle. In humble sincerity, you’re correct that the reluctance to self-identify is part of the problem, and I’m somewhat guilty of that. My only clarification is that although I may not self identify on this forum – even though it’s clearly a well moderated and “rational” forum – I DO self identify in places where I believe it matters more and where I believe I CAN effect real change. It’s been hard, but I’ve finally broached many tough topics with friends and family close to me that I know most likely won’t agree. And I feel that because things remain civil (that’s not to suggest self identifying is not civil) I’ve been able to have some surprisingly effective conversations. In fact I’ve been astounded to see and hear the progressive attitudes amongst many that I kind of had labeled as hardliners. The truth will set us all free eventually. I hope it’s in my lifetime. In the meantime I will remain quite outspoken within our community of friends, while also trying to walk that fine line of maintaining a seat at the table, where suggestions may be better considered.
Some of us can make a bigger impact by sharing anonymously, and some of us can make a bigger impact by sharing our identities. Let’s not jump to conclusions, and just urge each other to speak up and stand together in whatever ways are available to us. Speak the truth with all boldness and humility!
Yes I concur Michael.
This website is a great help.
It’s obvious that a lot of friends have not agreed with many things and have not seen them as scriptural. Some have kept quiet to be peacemakers others because they haven’t had the courage. It doesn’t really matter to me what the reason is.
We all now have a vehicle in which we can share equally. Share thoughts that we find so many others agree on. A discussion follows and we can then think on the input from others and grow wiser. (understanding and good judgement)
This is mostly heart felt good and constructive input to improve what has been around for over 100 years. I have read all the books and historic documents about our fellowship and I’m under no illusions. I’m very content where I’m at.
Ex friends have valuable constructive observations and experiences to share. Some are angry and bitter I understand that. A lot have a reason to be.
There will be good outcomes and it is resonating around the world.
To Offend not
The only thing the bible mentions about long hair that I know of is 1 Cor 11:15 ” if a women have long hair it is a glory to her”. So you could say it is good for a women to have long hair but it isn’t a law and how long is long? If a man has hair to just touching his shoulders we call it long. If a women were to have the same length hair, we call it short.
As for pants, the new testament says clothing should be respectable and modest. (1Timothy 2:9-10) The workers use old testament to back up the no pants rule. Deut 22:5 “The women shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither should a man put on a women’s garment.” I believe this was referring to cross dressing. Pants are not considered men’s clothing today. The pants I wear are very specifically made for a women.
Hope this helps!
Thanks!
One more thing regarding hair. No where in the bible does Jesus say women must wear their hair up in a bun. This is another non- scripture based tradition. Mary Magdelene wiped Jesus’ feet with her hair so it couldn’t have been in a bun. It was also obviously very long. Tradition of the times maybe? Does this mean we have to have knee length hair? Jesus never says we do but you have to pray about it, what’s right for you. The biggest problem is the judgement in our church based on these things. If a women has no conviction on long hair, does that make her less christian than a women who does? We need to stop looking at the outward appearance and look for the spirit within a person.
I pray God gives you clarity on these things for yourself. May the peace of God be with you!
And so it does not say “long” does it. It speaks of it as a covering, and that if it is cut, it might ad well be shaven. God knows about the races and different hair. It is not about comparing length. My hair never has grown really long. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that in my heart, I understand that I am a woman and accept my place. And so my hair, in whatever natural state it is, is my sign of willingness to submit to my place and keep it as God made it.
People are looking for a way around the scripture. Was it not all divinely inspired?
To Kim and Offend not
I think it would be good to direct a person to read the whole chapter regarding hair for a woman. 1 Corinthians 11:15 – But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering
And back in earlier verses, 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
The hair is not just her glory, but it is her covering, which is required for prayer. So then if you want to begin arguing the point, how long? Is it OK to trim the ends, just long enough to put it up, have bangs? Well this is where the Holy Spirit comes in to teach each person. I think workers in years past reacted to people testing the limits and made rules, but each person needs to ask the Holy Spirit, but why not just live in a way that there is no question, no gray area? If she doesn’t have a covering, she may as well be shaven or shorn, and her hair is given her for a covering, seems pretty straightforward to me.
Regarding dress, modesty is to be our guide, so again, we each need to be asking for guidance from the Spirit. Again I think workers used to dictate to people what is modest because some people don’t seem to understand. We no longer follow the old law, so it doesn’t apply, but modesty does. I just look at myself in the mirror and ask myself if this is modest. Some women need to sit down in front of a mirror and cross their legs because that is what people see in meeting. Not all dresses and skirts are modest. Some pants are modest, but really ask yourself if those skin tight jeans or yoga pants are really modest.
Modesty is not just how we dress but also what we talk about and how we conduct ourselves. Do we try to draw attention to ourselves or do we seek to be modest?
TRT,
Note that this was Paul’s guidance given to women living in the Middle East approx 2000 years ago! We neither live in that culture or during that time. Paul was doing the same as workers have tried to do which is put guidelines in place which is not needed as Jesus already promised the gift of his Holy Spirit in John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
No one said anything about skin tight jeans or yoga pants. I said MODEST dress. Normal pants are modest dress. Is it ok to wear skirts, definitely, but not the skin tight ones many women are wearing today. My point was, nothing in the bible dictates dress other than modesty. The rest is all tradition of our church.
If your hair is shoulder length it is still covering your head. And absolutely! We should be going to prayer for all things, wether they are right or wrong for us individually. So as a church, we need to stop judging people based on hair and clothes. We don’t know their convictions from God.
Learning a little bit about the history of head/hair coverings for Orthodox Jewish women might change a little how you see this, since Paul was definitely Orthodox. I/we so rarely understand (or acknowledge) context.
Thank you.
Just an observation that God created many different kinds of hair and not all of it can be grown long. So when I read Paul’s observations about it, it seems clear that his interpretation is for the culture and race he lived in and experienced, since it is impossible to apply it to all cultures and races.
I also personally have experienced that there is no “safe side” regarding the rules. I can follow all the rules and not know Jesus. The safe side is the walking out in faith, when we don’t really know and don’t have a path and must rely on God to lead. And that can be scary. I think maybe that is the point. =)
Thank you.
Kim.
I am sorry that happened. Sometimes people don’t have wisdom. I don’t ever expect anyone to do things I do as far as the way I present myself, but I am not going to change it to please a person. I want to be pleasing to my bridegroom. He is worthy of my adoration and submission to Him, not to what someone else thinks, on one extreme or the other.
Hope you continue to have peace in your relationship with Him.
Kim, I didn’t mean to direct my comments about jeans and yoga pants at you. It was just an example.
I don’t experience anyone laying down the law. I am sorry you must have had some bad experiences . It would be wonderful if everyone could get the same answer from the Spirit, but the human colors what we think, and other people do, too, so then there are people who wear those things thst i mentioned. So I think that is why some workers have tried to create a rule, but as we all know, just because you have on a dress or skirt, that does not automatically mean it is modest. But I think those workers’ hearts were in the right place. Maybe some weren’t, but most were.
When we think of representing the Bride of Christ here in this world and that what we do is because we love Him, it changes our perspective a little. Instead of thinking “what can I do” we think “what is pleasing to Him?”
Yes I agree. Thank you for your spirit. My mom let me cut bangs when I was 14, the rest of my hair was long. The sister workers sat at our table and told us how even a 9 yr old would know better. So yes, bad experiences! Thankful we are now out from under the control of the workers and can just be led by the spirit.
Thank you so much for expressing my thoughts and feelings for me. The unwritten, nonbiblical rules and silent passiveness has got to stop. Living for God should be joyful, not suppressive.
Thank you.
Dear rondabc4672b851, Agree totally…joyful, not suppressive because of being Spirit led!
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I 100% agree with you, and you’ve said it better than I could.
I appreciate all of the thoughts shared in the original post and the ensuing comments. I think it’s a wonderful thing that we can share here freely, even if it means some of us are anonymous doing so. I think we get a lot more truthful comments as a result, maybe a few more jabs as well – and sometimes we need to be able to pour out our complaints so that we ourselves can process them.
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I‘m still having difficulty following all of this talk about our traditions. As one who has moved around, I can say that in my experience traditions and ways of doing things vary greatly from area to area, and those that are isolated and never move around will have a tendency of sticking with the way their parents or others taught them and seeing any progression as “wrong”.
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I’m hearing calls for more regulation, more accountability, more organization, for the workers and then, on the other hand, less regulations for the friends. I for one think we have a super flexible and fluid, practical setup (with plenty of room for improvement), that has been fine tuned over the years to meet the present needs of the day and still give excellent opportunity for our ministry and fellowship to be a benefit to us. The problem, I see, is when it’s not adhered to. Not because they’re doctrine, but because they’re safe. I think the boasting about different natural traditions came from back in the day and it still trickles down through the generations, but my small personal experience is that all of the workers and all of the friends are all across the board when it comes to opinions on these things, and I would be very surprised if those that are currently sticklers for these things being doctrine aren’t a very small but vocal minority amongst us
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We have “the great divide” between the east and the west because of differences. While that has immensely bothered me over the years, actually I do like that that it’s in fact free to happen. We’re not just following a set of regulations written by some guy or a board of members at the top.
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I am fully on board that the 2×2 ministry, meetings in the home, long hair, what else? Meetings every week, emblems taken as they are – are not doctrine. And I’m very sorry that they have become that way for some. It reminds me of that brass serpent that was lifted up for saving the people in Moses’ day, and eventually became an idol to worship until Moses decided to destroy it.
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I don’t know for sure but based on the prevalence of similar traditions in days past in most other churches, it seems to me that these and other such traditions, wearing skirts, black stockings, having to use the King James Version, and so forth, were common expectations of those that were good Christians. And we just carried them along and never questioned them – now many other churches have moved well past these things and here we are. I’m sorry that there are those here that are still hearing these preached as necessary to be right. However, I think we tend to hear them because they’re the ones saying things, but I can’t see that most people see them as doctrine anymore.
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I find it a bit shocking that here on a website dedicated to CSA/SA that the workers going 2×2 is questioned. It might not be doctrine, but it sure has a lot of practicalities. It’s safe for the workers, especially our young sisters, it’s safe for the friends, especially those that are vulnerable. If it’s doctrine then it becomes paralyzing when there are unexpected circumstances come up, but I can say that if Dean had been hanging around with his companion, sure he could have still been doing things but it would have made things a lot more difficult.
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Meetings in the home – it’s just so much more wonderful than a big church building, and so much more flexible. And, cheaper.
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I’m not opposed to the workers having their own baches, but are we willing to foot the bill for that? I think it’s something so special to have the workers stay in the homes, and with safety measures of our own (especially, educating our children for their safety), we can still give each worker a private room (only for homes that are capable of such) while protecting ourselves and our children. If we forced them to sleep together in the same room all of the time for our safety and so that they can keep an eye on each other – just think of some of the abuse that has happened to our younger workers – they need a little place of safety as well. I remember a dear lady from my early 20s who had been in the work for several years, back in the 60s or 70s. She made the comment – “Sometimes the few short minutes you can justify spending in the privacy of the bathroom become your refuge.” I often wondered why she said that. Now I just wonder what all she had to put up with from her companion. I think things have changed tremendously from those days, and I can see that the younger ones have a voice and are respected and appreciated by their older companions in a way I didn’t see when I was younger. And I can tell they feel free (sometimes too free?) to speak up about things they don’t think is right. But I can see based on what we’ve even read here on this website, that clearly there are still those that will attempt to use their place to abuse others.
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My personal opinion is that those that will abuse their place will go to great lengths to do so, and more regulations will just give them a better cover while punishing those that are honestly trying to do what’s right.
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Regarding worker finances – I am appalled at what I hear happened in the past in some areas where workers, overseers I suppose were the responsible ones, expected things that in the eyes of almost everyone else, were not right. Not only their expectations on others and but how they carried it out. They’ve done great damage to the reputation of the work in general. However, my experience, is that you can’t get a worker to admit even the tiniest of needs, and they seem to feel a bit shy at taking what we offer them, and very grateful. There are exceptions of course. Back in the day when there were no cars, and workers stayed for weeks in the same home having a nightly gospel meeting, it seems that there wasn’t much money to worry about things anyway. But then people got busy and more financially comfortable. And it just got easier to give our kids some cash and let them get what they need, and… we do the same for the workers.
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I was put in my place one time when I overheard someone offering to cover the cost of a gospel meeting mission. And even though the worker hesitated, I’m sure to see if the offerer was just being polite or if they were serious, I could see what I think was a quiet measure of relief pass over the worker’s face, and his humble thankfulness. I’ve since tried to follow this example when I could afford it, and admittedly, it was harder than I expected because they seem so afraid that they are giving the impression that they are expecting something from me. Don’t ever ask a worker, “if you need anything just let me know”. In my experience, they will never tell you what they need, because they have learned how to go without – after all they have a bed and food, and any thing else could be seen as superfluous. It just goes against every moral thread in their body to admit they need something. But when I offer specific things, then I can get clearer answers from them.
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So – and this is all my opinion – I think if we put our money where our mouth is and look for situations where we can offer to cover more than just expenses for the workers, we’ll be surprised at how willing they are to do things our way – We can take the effort to rent places for gospel meetings and cover the costs. We can take them shopping, pay for what they need. We can take them to the doctor and cover their bills. We can take them to the gas station and fill their tanks. We can spend time with them.
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It’s easy to complain… it’s not so easy to be willing to offer time and effort because we’re too busy chasing the almighty dollar. And a cold hard fact is that those that appear as rebels never get a chance to make a difference.
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I don’t know if anyone remembers William Lewis getting up on the platform at a convention wearing a red sweater way back in the day? That was when red was a big no no because of its association with “red-light districts”. A lot of people knew it wasn’t right but who could be taken seriously if they tried to change it? William didn’t exactly seem like the progressive type, but he was in a position to stop this goofy requirement, he did what he needed to do, and people were willing to listen to him (I don’t actually know much about him, so this is not in praise of William, but of this one specific thing). I actually gathered that much of the enforcement came within the meetings themselves, not from the workers, but I’m speaking 3rd hand there.
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IMHO There just doesn’t seem to be any other way around it – those that have credibility to make changes happen are those that have invested themselves into the system, at least time but also money (if they have it) and have developed a reputation of seeking good for the fellowship. And I know a lot of people are not in a position emotionally to do that because of things that have happened, and I’m thankful that victims are starting to be heard. There seems to be an environment favorable to change, and I pray that God hears our cry so that these changes can truly be realized. Sorry so long.
SS
If you don’t believe in the authority of the Bible, that is your choice. I was trying to answer a question of someone who seemed to be trying to clarify what the Bible says as guidance for their life. If you are throwing out the words of Paul as not pertaining to the modern day, why don’t you throw out the words of Jesus, too?
I think we need to give the eternal God more credit than is being given to Him. Does it seem strange that an eternal God’s words would be too old to follow after only 2000 years? We follow the new Testament. That is why those things are left on record. It is how the church went forward after Jesus.
So to anyone questioning, that is fine. Yes we do have traditions, just like any family, but family traditions can change, but please go to the scriptures, and please pray. God Himself has a thought about this, so try to get your understanding from Him, not from people online who don’t even believe in the sanctity of the Bible and God’s unchanged word.
TRT,
No one is throwing out Paul’s words. But please don’t twist the scriptures as those were not the eternal God’s word but Paul’s. The entire bible points to Christ so yes I do choose to abide in Christ and follow his words as I can’t go wrong if I do that.
“Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
I do read and pray for his guidance with understanding the scripture and do not claim to understand everything but with the spirits continued guidance I will.
We don’t follow the new testament or we shouldn’t be anyway. We should be following Jesus only. And that isn’t how the church went out after Jesus, following the new testament. The new testament wasn’t written for a couple hundred years after Jesus’ death. We, the people of the internet, do believe in God’s word, just not all the extra rules to go along with it.
Should anyone believe in the authority of the bible? It was written by our very primitive ancestors, before microscopes and telescopes, before anyone knew what cells or germs or galaxies are, before the zero was invented, and before they knew where the sun went at night. They thought the Earth was flat and the center of the universe and the sky was a dome and the stars at night were lights twinkling through the dome.
If you get sick, do you make animal sacrifices and pray? Or do you go to the doctor?
Seems to me that trusting the bible too much is the root of everyone’s problem here. Reading your bibles more and praying more isn’t going to change anything. People need to get off their knees and get mad and get educated and take action.
I very much appreciated the original post here. I dropped out of all the religion worship a long time ago, but still go to my Sunday morning meeting. I go because I can honestly say that I love my brothers and sisters there. I go to glorify Christ, God manifest in the flesh. We must not slink away because we don’t meet the level of approval expected by the workers. They are not the head of the church. Christ is the head and it is Him I follow. I care nothing about the approval of any others. I also agree with an earlier poster here regarding posting anonymously. I will sign my real name because that is how Jesus knows me.
For those who are bible literalists, you may want to give that some pause and consideration.
The bible does need some serious editing for clarity and revision to advice such as child abuse and genocide, to name a few.
You are so correct, Watchman. Clarity…. A twisted interpretation can be used to support some serious atrocities. The ministry for example. A whole special, exalted, superior category of people set up to manipulate and control another category of people. Thanks be to God that fewer and fewer people accept that without question.
Thanks for your good thoughts! And I would like to add that in the original language, Deut 22:5 says, “a woman should not bear the instruments of the mighty and the mighty should not enrobe a woman’s garment”. So that verse is speaking specifically about military service.
I have found Acts 15:1-29 helpful in considering “rules and regulations”.
With particular emphasis on 9-11 and 28,29
Thank you
This very subject is one that I’ve found myself wanting to understand more clearly as I have felt a clear calling to “Awake!” “Arise!” & “Dig deep!” in the midst of the current revelation of hidden trauma. What have I been complacently doing (or put my focus on) that has entangled me in tradition and kept me from truly growing spiritually? I’ve been thankful for the reminder that I need to be working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. God wants our trust and He is a jealous God!
In regard to women’s outward appearance, as AnneMarie mentioned, I’m not so sure we take into consideration the context Paul was writing in and, therefore, we’ve always leaned toward a more literal interpretation. His teaching certainly does apply to today in that I wonder if he was simply stating that appearance should be such that there is no question a man is a man and a woman is a woman (There is certainly nothing new under the sun…). The familiar verses, I Peter 3:3-4, have come to mind most recently and I’ve found myself wondering if we’ve put a bit too much emphasis on making women stand out in outward appearance. He says women shouldn’t be known by the way they adorn themselves, but I know it’s been ingrained in me since a child that girls are to wear skirts, put their hair up and stand out in the world in appearance, to not “fit in”. Perhaps it is more about moderation of dress and beauty in spirit, not given to flaunting or show, but portraying that which is comely to a woman of God.
I know no one means it this way, so I submit this in peace towards all as my opinion. Talk of women and how they “should be” outwardly, feels not deep enough, and beside the point in this crisis. The little tradition things that don’t belong in our future are obviously worth discussing and worth changing (will evolve), but feel so much smaller to me than the main CSA/SA/mishandling issue and what can be done to address that. So many (not all) of the perpetrators and coverup people are men. As a man, I feel we should try to focus on how believing men should behave, and what character traits they should have going forward according to scripture. Essentially the condition of the heart according to scripture, and how women should be more equally valued/included having shared responsibility so we can climb out of this mess together. We should talk about how sitting quietly and accepting the way things are, or failing to help the needy in their distress most often isn’t right either. Someone trained on combating CSA in a large organization, spoke about how leaders are often chosen by success traits rather than character traits, and how that has led to many wolves among the sheep in religious organizations/ suppression. What character traits according to scripture should we be looking for, so we don’t get so easily fooled going forward by shallow outward things.
@justice4all, I appreciate your thoughts and understand the underlying traditions may seem a bit shallow in light of the bigger issue. The one thought that keeps coming back in all this is that if we truly want to protect the children & vulnerable, we must give women more of a voice. Nurturing and intuition most often come naturally for them, and if they don’t feel at liberty to speak up and be heard, these things will continue at the hands of the wolves you mention.
First, I like your user name! We all need to dare to discern. Also, I agree that the vast majority of women have that maternal instinct to not protect their young, but also to pick up on cues of unsafe persons. They need to speak up and be heard.
justice4all, I appreciate your thoughts and I have been considering this also regarding the little “traditions” in regards to CSA.
Here is my little perspective as a female in this way and how it relates. I grew up with parents that began coming to meetings/professed in the early 80’s. At that time there was a staff in our state that was very much about the appearance and there were a lot of rules and traditions especially for women. It was incredibly strict. I was not allowed to wear pants even though I walked to school in the winter and the wind flipped up my dress often. I learned to live with it. I loved my parents and I loved and continue to love God and wanted to be right with my Heavenly Father. I knew even as a young girl that I was to dress and behave modestly.
In my late teens I attended a special meeting in a different state. An older brother worker spoke and he was discussed the dress of women in that location and he shared his strong disappointment in many women who outside of the meetings wore shorts and tank tops. (This was in California). He talked at length and vehemently about it. As I sat listening to him I thought of what I was wearing and I felt ashamed to be a female even though I was wearing a long modest skirt and modest sweater. I remember wanting to pull my skirt longer and my collar higher by the end of him speaking. I felt shame, even thought I didn’t have anything to be ashamed of.
With that in mind if a culture is created and thriving where women are “shamed” by the way they dress/appear are already programed to feel shamed and fearful on how others perceive them it is a breeding ground for CSA. There is a vulnerability to the consistent judgement and harshness of those around us. So if those same vulnerable young people are abused they are carrying even more shame and guilt and fear.
I don’t know if I am expressing this well or if it makes sense to anyone, but it is something that has been near to my heart.
Yes, of course, require of yourself that you listen to ALL people, members or non-members of the fellowship, regardless of age, gender, status in the hierarchy, etc. And, as you stated, make sure that they feel free to speak up. The diminishment of many voices may seem subtle but it is keenly felt when thoughtless leaders aren’t even conscious of their exclusionary practices. When they are aware, they are convinced it is God’s will. The wolves are still creeping and strutting and flaunting their supposed power.
I appreciate more than I can express in words the thoughts shared in this letter and in so many of the comments. Much of what I have read here resonates in my heart and with what I have been reading and praying for clarity on.
My belief is that there are going to be no quick fixes to this system, no matter how quick we would like to see change. And unfortunately our human nature often bucks at change, but I believe that it is worth fighting for. It is like what was shared in the letter. “There’s a common thread amongst us all and shown on this site and in the comments; that we’re fighting to preserve the church. We don’t actually want to burn the church down. NOT because it’s the one true way, but because it’s good. It’s not perfect, it’s good. And that’s good enough. And maybe more importantly because it’s OURS.”
I would also like to say that my heart is filled with sorrow for each innocent victim that was preyed upon and then silenced, not believed, and ostracized. That breaks my heart. I had no idea that this was going on and that there are still those gathering with fear for the safety of themselves or their children also breaks my heart.
Right now many conventions are happening or set to take place and I find myself feeling worried, but I know that I need to continue to pray and do all that His spirit directs me to think, say, and do.
In John 17:15 Jesus is praying for his apostles, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
I love this prayer and what he says later in verse 20 “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us…”
This is so precious to me and I am so thankful that we have this prayer on record. May we all continue to pray for guidance by Gods spirit that He can keep us, guide us, and reveal to us His will through all of this. That we can live in a way that would be pleasing to God and that the life of Christ would be reflected in our lives for the preservation of souls.