WINGS note: This letter was written by a very concerned friend.
After reading the most recent letter that captured so well the problem enshrined in exclusivity, I feel compelled to write. Silence at this point is complicity.
I applaud all those who have courageously shared their experiences as victims of abuse; sexual, physical, emotional and spiritual. We have heard from current and former workers, and current and former members of our fellowship. I say “our” as one who was raised going to meetings and has spent the last 30 years as an active participant.
How much longer is an open question. It is fully understandable that most, if not all who have shared their pain and their experiences choose to remain anonymous. I choose to sign my name to this letter. These are my thoughts and convictions, and mine alone.
To be clear, I am not a victim of abuse, at least not the most direct kind. But unlike many previous authors, I am angry.
I have brushed against abuse and abusers for my entire life, under the auspices of those entrusted with spreading the gospel, but did not know it. At least three known pedophiles spent significant time in my home as a child, teenager, young adult, and now as a father with my own children. None were known to me or my family, but all were known to the overseers at the time.
This only counts those that admitted their proclivities and crimes, not the generational monster that was Dean Bruer, who also spent a significant amount of time in our home, or any who have not yet been named and brought into the open. For a “never” event, that is far too frequent. It must also be acknowledged that what has been revealed in the past two months has been grudging at best, and had Dean not died, would not be known. That is inexcusable.
We keep hearing about the example of King David and giving grace to sinners as a way to pardon the repeated missteps in past and prior handling of abuse. Annaias and Saphira (Acts 5:1) are the examples we should be discussing. They intended good for the nascent Christian community by selling their property and donating the proceeds, but withheld money and lied, first by omission, then by commission when confronted. Both were struck down in that moment.
There are consequences for actions. I don’t pretend to know any person’s status with God, and believe that anyone can find and follow their own revelation and conviction. God is the final arbiter for all, but from a human perspective, nearly the entire current leadership has lost my respect and confidence.
As horrifying as the crimes of pedophilia and sexual abuse are, as tragic as it is that multiple workers and friends have endured their own emotional and spiritual abuse, as egregious as it is that endemic denial and deflection have pushed a Christian ideal into the realm of abuse, we are still discussing symptoms, not the root of the problem.
The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative.
I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful.
There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.
However, it is impossible to be an agent for change when no alternative exists. The level of change needed is more than structural, it is seismic. The ecumenical church that many of us wish for is so far from the current structure that it might as well be a fantasy. We need our own Martin Luther to nail his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of a church. But we don’t have a church building of course, another facet of which we are inordinately proud.
Second, as so many have pointed out, the pervasive denial of a power structure or hierarchy is almost as damaging, and a simple way to avoid responsibility. We are apparently not one body in Christ, but 18 geographic bodies (in the U.S. at least) with their own Ordnung, following a roughly similar tangent as Christians. Very simple way to pass the buck, and hyper-convenient way to pass abusers on without dealing with their actions.
Our workers have the authority to assign location of fellowship, elders in those meetings, and who can or cannot take part. They have the authority to say who can and cannot take the emblems, the most direct and physical connection to Christ. They are the gateway to baptism, the closest thing we have to admission into the legacy of Jesus’ life. That is power, and when combined with a dogma that states we are God’s chosen people, it is a truly singular form of power. The overseers control every facet of the lives of those workers in their sphere of influence. They decide whom to allow to enter the ministry, where they labor, who their co-workers will be, and when/if they are dismissed from the ministry. That is clearly power.
In the meetings, the hierarchy is clear, with women at the bottom and men/elders on the next rung. Within the ministry, the hierarchy is also quite clear, with all women at the bottom, younger men on the next step up, and exclusively older/experienced men at the top. To deny this structure exists is disingenuous at best, outright malfeasance at worst. There is no system of feedback or accountability, so combined with a dash of narcissism, the result is a recipe for abuse of all flavors with no recourse.
I believe that the majority of those attending meetings are good and loving people with well-intentioned ideals. I believe the same can be said of the majority of workers, who are willing to give their lives in service to this ideal. I believe the current church structure has strayed so far from the stated ideal that it is untenable. I am angry and believe there is a silent majority in the church who are in accord but has no voice. Until the problem is named, change is not possible. Once named, change remains a far-off and potentially unreachable goal, but honesty is a start.
Jonathan Olson
May 28, 2023
WINGS for Truth 
Absolutely agree with every word you have written.
I would like people who agree to please LIKE this down the bottom of the letter. We need to show evidence of massive support. At the moment we have just thousands of posts from individual’s.
Let’s unite and show the strength of our support, even if you don’t agree with every word.
Maybe someone can come up with a way of showing these people that we are all horrified and appalled and want change.
There are Overseers that are true, they need to step up and get rid of the bad ones with support from Workers and Friends.
Desperate times.
Sadfriend, please reach out to me at garner.shaned@gmail.com
I agree!! So many have asked me why did I give the worker “authority” over me and have told me to go over their heads and not give them the power, but when they have the ability to move me to another meeting, tell me I am not allowed to take the emblems, tell me I can’t take part or refuse baptism to my children, they have authority over me and are able to “punish” me for not conforming. The whole structure needs to change to be able to have any kind of voice to speak up especially if you happen to be a female, not born in the faith, and not a sister worker… you have no voice with the high up brother workers.
This spirit of telling people what they can’t do is not of Christ. Jesus forgives 70X7 and would be happy to see you there worshipping him. He will always have the spirit of love, not control.
Jennifer, please reach out to me at garner.shaned@gmail.com
You do know that your relationship is with Christ? There is no reason why you can’t have a relationship with Christ….it seems that you feel that someone must give you permission?? There is no place in Scripture that I am aware where this is the case…..bring your honest self before our Lord and trust in Him to guide you!
I agree wholeheartedly with the writer of this post. One question mark tho — He/she states that it is not written annoymously .. yet I see no name.
For me credibility goes up considerably with a name!! I suppose Wings has its reasons!! And at this point I don’t wish to question Wings as Wings is probably the the most positive force within the organization that exists just now. In reality the only source of honest transparency that exists .. and they have my highest admiration for their unlque capacity and courage in this!
However — I personally question the realistic chances of the neccesary changes for a responsible future for the group ever happening.
Something like the old testiment story of an unjust and increasingly unreasonable Egyptian leadership .. hopeless to reform … and the difficult decision finally made for folks instead to “move on”. That did become an option .. and in reality it didn’t turn out so bad for those folks — or for many of us that for one reason or another have been forced to “move on”.
Author name now added – Jonathan Olson
Thanks .. not that I know who he is anyways — and I guess it really doesn’t matter.
If this is the sort of validation you’re looking for, he’s had two brothers and one brother-in-law in the work (2 of 3 are still in the work to my knowledge).
Edgar, Several families in my area feel as you do, we don’t see change as possible with the current leadership. We have formally separated from the ministry and are now meeting in an unsanctioned meeting.
Our new meeting is awesome, we feel the Holy Spirit strong in it and that was always the test. We are trying to reach out to others that have moved on in the past and to bring them back into fellowship with us.
Galatians 5;1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Brian and Kim, please reach out to me at garner.shaned@gmail.com
Bravo, this outlines the exact complexity of why leaving is so traumatic on top of the trauma lived. Thank you
If this is the sort of credibility you’re looking for, he’s had two brothers and one brother-in-law in the work (2 of 3 are still in the work to my knowledge).
Edgar,
How have your Christian fellowship meetings been going since your crossed the red sea? Interested to hear how your walk with God has come in the last 20 years.
Thanks,
You wonder about our spiritual life since our exodus journey ….. It doesn’t resemble the Egyptian days so much …but we feel that we are much more free to develop the spiritual aspects of our lives now than then … It has been wonderful to be able to notice and admire the goodness and spiritual aspects of the folks we live and move with in the course of our ordinary days — without the idiotic 2×2 condition that we must get them to meetings and they must profess to be worthy our admiration. “Fellowship” isn’t restricted to Sunday morning or Wednesday evening any more ….And not restricted to “insiders”
Regarding fellowship meetings … we attend them equally often as we have any record of Jesus attending “Sunday morning meeting in the home”
All in all — we feel that developing the spiritual values of love, mercy, kindness, hospitality, forgiveness, truth and justice, equality, non-violent response to conflict etc etc …. is much much greater part of our lives now since the “Egypt exit” — Very different but a wonderful part of our lives.
Hope this answers your question. MVH Edgar Massey Cell : +46 70 551 2828
The person who wrote this said they chose to sign their name, yet no name is attached to the post. Can the writer add a comment and let us know their name. In my state, many of us that have posted on this sight are now in contact and it has been a tremendous encouragement to me to have names with ones who have resounded echos in my own heart.
Author name now added – Jonathan Olson
I wonder if it’s possible for WINGS to coordinate a way for us to connect with other concerned friends in our state/area? In my area there haven’t been any sort of meetings about any of this, and the communication from the workers has been minimal. I’ve been wanting to find/create a group of folks to meet with who actually care and have concern.
Search up Julia Taylor’s Facebook group: Shining Light on CSA. It’s for concerned friends all over the US.
Heartbroken, email me at garner.shaned@gmail.com
I agree with all this.
Agree with every word Jonathan Olson said. If the workers get away from saying they are the only true way and all other churches are bad and their preachers are false, they will then lose the only hold they have on the friends. I remember many Saturday night meetings at convention when the main speaker would talk about a young person recently killed in a car crash or a teenager that drowned in a gravel pit who were not professing, so they were doomed to a lost eternity – their way of saying hell. Scared the crap out of me and most others in the meeting that were not at sleep. Very dreadful thing to think you had a one way ticket to hell if you were not professing.
Every time I hear of a worker speaking about someone ending up in a lost eternity, I know they don’t have the same spirit as I have. It is not up to us to condemn.
God can’t bless something that is built on false doctrine. But he has blessed the friends and workers deeply that are repulsed by this false belief. When we can just be a little flock of poor sitting at Jesus feet with a deep uncondemning love for all then we will flourish as a church. I’m glad that this sentiment has been shifting in the hearts of those we gather with and I believe something very pure will come after a few difficult years of exposure and correction
Very well written letter by Jonathan that does echo most of my own feelings.
Open heart surgery is really what’s needed right now on “The Truth” to dissect and remove all the tenets that are practiced and upheld that are not Christ like but based on fear and control. I fear most do not have the strength or will for this.
Thank you Jonathan – this is well written and clear. We do need to address the problem of unchecked power and patriarchy. Parents, professionals and survivors of abuse have an unmatched determination to see that these issues get resolved properly. It’s time for an Acts 6 approach regionally. By this Acts 6 approach, reporting, resolution and communication of CSA/SA cases would be removed from the hands of the ministry so that they can focus on their calling. This is a way within scripture to ensure that these issues get handled the way they should. When people transfer regions, the regional team handling issues could clear people to move regions based on their history. The teams would be able to compare notes as needed.
I have posted many comments on here before and am done hiding behind an anonymous name.
I agree 100% with everything said. Some of the overseers may be changing policies around CSA now because they have been forced to confront the issue. But it does not make them any less guilty for the decades of hurt and division that their leadership has brought because of CSA, telling people to not come to meetings/take part, preaching exclusivity, preaching fear instead of love, etc. There are good brother and sister workers that can fill these roles and bring honestly and transparency back to the ministry. I trust God is in control and letting all of this happen, but just as with Esther and Mordecai, there still must be action. God is obviously speaking to people to have conversations with each other and to address issues with the workers. May we all find the strength to speak and act what has been laid on our hearts by God. I am happy to have a conversation with anyone. We have been addressing the CSA issue head on in Wisconsin with the overseer and workers for the last 7 years.
Here is my email if anyone wants to reach out and continue these conversations.
garner.shaned@gmail.com
Thank you Jonathan for speaking up and writing such a meaningful letter. Our family has suffered terribly at the hands of overseers. Including my dad, who is one of the kindest, spiritual, helpful meeting going men I know, and he had to be silent for 30 years in meeting because of the overseers ruling. We were shammed by workers in Montana so bad that we sold our home and moved to other states (my parents back to MN and I moved to Alaska). So much more to be said here (I need to write a letter of mine own about this at some point), but for now I have a few questions/thought:
1. Why don’t all the overseers of the United States have a meeting to talk about everything they’re hearing from us so that we can be unified with change or at least discuss as an entire church (in the US) change ? I’m amazed how we hear things like the announcement from the West Coast about a “workers code of conduct” and yet our overseer here, Titus Lehman, had never heard of it. Why would the overseers not call each other and talk through all of this?!
2. Feels like the word ‘overseer’ needs to be changed it’s not biblical. And let’s see some female overseers.
3. And I love that you brought up that this is ‘a way’ not ‘The Way’. I fear too often we sound just like the Pharisees.
4. Might seem off topic, but bear with me. Skirts are not scriptural. I don’t know how to articulate this exactly, but there is some thing about women having to wear skirts, and if they don’t they’re ostracized, and I feel this has a profound effect on women (men too). I find it puts too much power in the hands of workers and friends. When a female feels ashamed if she wears pants around men, it takes away her strength and ability to speak up for herself, which can lead to abuse. Skirts are not scriptural. Modesty is and dressing our gender is also scriptural. But there’s no reason women can’t wear modest pants (obviously pants are feminine in our culture). Growing up in this way, if I had pants on and the workers came over, I was absolutely mortified!! I would sprint out of the room to put on a skirt. And because of that, it puts workers and men on a pedestal; If we don’t feel empowered to even dress how we feel is actually modest (let’s be real, pants are often more modest than a skirt), how can we speak up? I believe there’s something about skirts that leads to the oppression of woman that leads to an attitude that we can’t speak up. If we can’t even bear to wear pants around workers, how can we speak about something that doesn’t feel right? Now I will say that it was on my heart to wear modest pants to convention preps this year, and I felt really good about my decision, and nobody seem to care a bit. So maybe it’s something we overemphasized and care too much about. But at the same time, I think we wear skirts just out of tradition and manipulation, and not out of true revelation from God.
There’s not a lot of alternatives for the type of fellowship we do love and enjoy with our church. I say we stay a fight!! We stay and make our church better.
Maybe we need a nation wide zoom call, a call to action and we invite all the overseas to attend and share their thoughts? And we can share our concerns with all them at once?
Ashley (Williams) Hom
I love what you shared, Ashley! I think a lot of us share a lot of your feelings.
I had no idea of your family’s story! I would love to read it if you feel called to share it more in depth at some point!
Hi Ashley, I am not courageous enough to post with my name but I enjoyed what you wrote and have two points to add.
1. The discussions cannot just be the USA and Canada, they must include our brothers and sisters globally. That means from our native South Korean workers to our native Nigerian workers (all of whom are probably unaware of the state of things in the USA).
2. I will be honest, I never heard of the term overseer in my youth, we called it elder worker. I don’t think overseer is a helpful term.
Thanks
Wholeheartedly agree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Ashley (and Jonathan)!
It is coming. There is organization building out of Georgia now…to do exactly this.
Devon, how do other friends in Georgia support these efforts? It is time for change.
This is exquisitely written, Jonathan. After sitting in meetings for six decades, I have concluded the workers’ doctrine is this: “We are the only true ministers of the only true way and you need to be in it for salvation.” If you take away this doctrine, there is nothing left.
What we are witnessing now is the fruit and failure of that doctrine. Tragically, the lives of many young, innocent children have been sacrificed to uphold the doctrine’s image.
To paraphrase Gamaliel in Acts 5, “…if this doctrine is of man, it will fail…”
It is and it will.
Re: Acts 5 paraphrase above –
The doctrine is not of God and it has failed. Many, many people can see that and have suffered deeply because it. But it continues on because there is astonishing support for these men (and women). There are also many unthinking people who are so insecure they can’t imagine a world without the authority of workers.
I am encouraged to see that there are people in this little group that understand that what we are seeing is the fruit of the underlying doctrine.
In this fellowship, if you are a senior worker, then no one below you (friends or elders) can correct you because you give the orders. No one outside can correct you, because they are all lost. So you can easily end up like a kids billycart with no brakes roaring down a really steep section of road with a train crossing at the bottom. It was always going to end bad.
My advice, don’t follow along until it hits a freight train.
Step back and pray for the Salvation of these people.
We are not saved by faith in a ministry of any sort
“We are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
When Christ is our authority, when His words are the foundation of our choices.
That is the faith that makes us counted in.
This whole situation has rocked me to the core. But, when I got to the core, I found some things there. I have been going back and reading in John, as I feel like I need the simple teachings of Jesus. I personally believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, a divine Son begotten of a divine father. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, believe that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel and I spent many years in other churches, trying to believe and understand the Trinity. My personal belief about who Jesus is have led me to believe that this is the only way for me to worship where those beliefs are common. There are so many traditions that have become legalistic and I don’t agree with them. But, I need to be true to what I believe about Jesus. When I first started coming to meetings, there were some traditions that I saw that I questioned, and fortunately for me, I was told to pray about it. I did receive my own convictions about some things, and I have lived by my convictions. But, there were other things like Ashley mentioned that I didn’t personally have convictions about, but I did, because I knew that others would be critical. I do not believe in the churches position about divorce and remarriage in the case of adultery, and I also cringe when I hear people talking badly about other churches. I spent many years in other churches, with a sincere heart, and seeking to have a better relationship with God. I have honestly and sincerely in prayer asked God for clear direction about whether to leave or whether to stay, and I felt like Peter when he said “to whom else shall I go”. I don’t know anywhere else to go where we believe the same thing about Jesus and so, I need to stay, but I am committed to doing my part to cleanse the filth that should never have been in God’s way. Ephesians tells us that fornication should not be named even ONCE among us, and we have digressed so far that we are committing horrendous sexual crimes against our women and children. It needs to stop for the purity of the name of Jesus to be upheld.
Thank you all for the courage to put your name on your post, I understand the persecution you may face and the fears. I also understand those that choose not too as they also know they have much to loose. May we all keep loving Jesus and loving souls.
Dear Jennifer, our little mtg feels just like you. We no are no longer under the worker’s jurisdiction but simply meet together because Jesus loves us, just as He loves every soul and we love Him and want to live for Him. We want to the words of Jesus and His Holy Spirit to be our docrine and teacher, not the tradtion on man. Mark 7~
It feels so odd to see this level of division that even the “friends” feel they need to be separate from the “workers”. To me that suggests deep rooted division where you have elevated worker above friends – rather than being brothers and sisters in the one body of Christ.
I am sorry, but this isn’t only down to the workers – it is your fellowship also, taking away the workers doesn’t really achieve anything unless you are trying to create another fellowship or stating that all “workers” are the same – which is simply not true.
Jennifer I’ve also begged to know where to go and feel as the answer is to stay. Unfortunately some of the friends don’t want to hear or believe the church is in a crisis they can’t accept what has happened is criminal. That mindset is so unsettling to me. They don’t even believe it when the workers tell them it is true!
Dear Observer and Empathy, we love the friends and many of the workers are precious! We have just stepped aside for awhile…until certain situations change (if they do) and there is transparency as to sexual predators among us, transparency concerning finances and less control…letting the Spirit lead and not man’s laws and traditions. Dean Bruer and the many criminals that were leading us, correcting us and that are coming to light now are a dissapointment…no bitterness, just a heart-shattering dissapointment. There are other personal issues that I won’t go into that also dissapoint. I feel a peace now…letting the Spirit lead.
So pleased to hear you found Jesus at the core.
I believe that will be the blessing in all of this mess.
“For many shall come in my name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many”.
Use Jesus name and teaching to convince people to follow them.
So the Lord Jesus who alone is worthy of that authority, looses it.
This is God helping us to return the authority to Him who is worthy.
Very well stated and I concur.
Very well said and I concur.
“I believe that the majority of those attending meetings are good and loving people with well-intentioned ideals. I believe the same can be said of the majority of workers, who are willing to give their lives in service to this ideal.”
–
Me too. Things have changed seismically since the days of Irving. Natural things cannot escape the laws of nature – they will always descend into further chaos. But that hasn’t happened with this fellowship. Where are the black stockings? Where are the workers that are telling brides that their wedding ring is jewelry? That all we can do is sit at home and write letters on Sunday after meeting? The women and men required to sit separately at conventions, antennas and radios being yanked out of cars? Being told that sports are too worldly? 20 years ago the sisters wouldn’t be without nylons and the brothers without ties. Now I don’t think anyone would say anything if women wore pants to meeting as mentioned above. I am guessing that friends would say things before workers would. We all know those people in our meetings, we love them dearly. Now powerful men are being brought down quickly and people are listening to victims and taking them seriously. I think that’s a pretty seismic change – and it feels way overdue but most of us hardly felt the day could even come at all. I just can’t believe that CSA/SA is worse today than it was in previous days. It looks worse because it’s getting revealed, but much of the workers being taken down are things that happened 20+ years ago. The general population is more informed these days, and I believe that has already brought about some positive changes. I know God would rather that we had all been taught more perfectly by love and the Holy Spirit. But the cries of those who suffered abuse at the hands of those that should have protected them – It seems clear to me that God stepped in and performed a miracle in a way that no person could claim the glory. But as Jonathan said, it’s not just those that experienced abuse first hand that have been affected – everyone has. We are all sighing for some relief.
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The reality – most of us can’t bear to go participate in any other fellowship or religion. It doesn’t mean all or any of the people in other fellowships are wrong. They’re free to worship as they wish. But it’s not for me. We could break off and create our own little copycat fellowship minus the oversight and workers. But the reality is that they don’t last long and before too long everyone goes their separate ways. I know some have lasted for a number of years. But unless they take the effort to add members, it’s going to die a natural death. Maybe that doesn’t matter. Those that have mentioned that you have done so, I do hope that it continues to be for you what it is now.
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I know I’ve received a lot of support from the fellowship and our ministry. I believe with all of my heart that the ministry is a large part of why we are still together today and have added to the numbers until it’s a large worldwide fellowship. I believe they are God’s gift to be helpers in our joy. I believe there are some serious problems that must be taken care of for the preservation of this fellowship in our day so that our children can enjoy it even more than we have and experience the wonderful support that our fellowship provides. I believe it will happen.
–
In Gal 1 Paul said if anyone or even an angel of God came preaching another gospel, let him be accursed – and he repeated it. It seems to me that Paul was making it clear to the Galatians that it was on them to make sure that they weren’t deceived by those that had at one time been right and brought to them something that had power in it to give them new life. Paul tells them, if I (we) change, let me (us) be accursed. I believe that’s a right we have. We have the right to call the ministry (and anyone else) on things that are not in line with the scriptures. Maybe it’s a responsibility. If they don’t hear us, God please give us the courage to pursue it in a way that we maintain our own spirit and preserve our soul so that we can bring about effective change.
–
Those of you that never gave up seeking to address and correct the problems of CSA/SA amongst us, we will be eternally thankful for you and we have so much to learn from you. Shame on the rest of us for just resigning ourselves to the way things were, closing our eyes to the problems that seemed impossible or too much effort to overcome, swallowing our own hurt and experiences, only finding our voices after the persistent and unfailing efforts of those who have been on the front lines and have borne the greatest wounds and have the scars as a constant reminder of the abuse they have endured. We love you and instead of supporting you as we should have, you have supported us.
FYI, the average length of time for disclosure of sexual abuse is just over 20 years according to studies on the subject.
BGM, It took me 50 years to disclose I was sexually abused as a child by a professing man. There are many victims who have not spoken out. May God heal each one.
So sorry to hear that. You are quite right. Not only do disclosure periods average about 21 years, that doesn’t account for the ones who never disclose. Only a minority ever disclose.
BGM, I really appreciate you educating us all on that very important statistic. I know for myself that it takes a lot of courage to just even begin to process. My own CSA/SA experiences were nothing compared to what some here have endured. I will have to say that the most traumatic experience for me as a child was being part of a family marked as sinners and I never understood. I had to bear the shame of being wrong when I was simply an innocent child. Time (40 years) revealed the truth. But I had to decide if I was going to leave or stay, and what staying would look like. I was fortunate to be privy to a few who had endured misunderstanding for years and they didn’t let it affect their own heart, and I loved and wanted their spirit – they were examples for me. I’m still not completely healed. But I determined there was no place I would rather be but this fellowship – and I’m determined that our children don’t have to bear shame and guilt in a place that should be a refuge and healing. I don’t have the power to make anything change. But I truly believe that I’m just one of many and God is hearing our cry. In my experience, the biggest shame came from the friends we met with 2x/week, and the workers were all across the board and so many quietly supported us in whatever way they could. I knew I was guilty and worthy of shame because I sided with sinners. But I couldn’t not. And I know I’m not popular on here for cautioning people to be careful with how they treat the innocent caught up in situations not of their own doing. My family was not accused of CSA/SA but I still experienced being marked a sinner through association. The greatest freedom came when I realized that what those that treated us the way they did was wrong, and when I could clearly mark it wrong in my own conscious, it totally changed my perspective and gave me a tangible freedom. And in time when their own families experienced so many problems. I could support them instead of saying I told you so and finding myself happy for their problems. I had to come to the understanding that bitterness could not rule my emotions. It still does if I let it, but I don’t like what it does to me and I work every day to not let that be the guiding factor in my life, interactions and choices. My children – I’m going to do everything in my power so that the vulnerable amongst us are educated and empowered so that we can be free from oppression and truly love our meetings and our ministry. My own experiences and what I observe are why I believe this is a ground-up movement, not a top-down movement.
Ditch the exclusivity belief and no one in the meetings can have any power over you. The power is in your hands. I’m in, but if someone tried to pull an abusive power play on me, it would be confrontation or “see ya later”, either works fine.
BGM, I don’t know that many can just flip it off when trauma and often our belief systems have occurred before our ability to logic and judge was fully developed. If I came across as believing that we are an exclusive fellowship, that was not my intention. If I came across as stating that fellowship is my choice for me, that’s my intention.
It’s definitely a challenge for many people who have invested their souls in it….I get that. I rejected exclusivity in my teens on the basis of the math so it was never a big personal issue for me. I really hadn’t closely evaluated your position on exclusivity, or delved into your posts too deeply….you need to start making paragraphs and you will get better readership. 🙂
BGM, you graciously didn’t say that I can’t figure out how to say what I want to say in a normal amount of words. I do usually put in paragraphs unless I don’t realize that I’m writing so much. But then the paragraphs squash together once posted. So I’ve tried to rectify that.
The more I think about it, the more surprised I am at your comment –
“ Ditch the exclusivity belief and no one in the meetings can have any power over you. The power is in your hands. I’m in, but if someone tried to pull an abusive power play on me, it would be confrontation or “see ya later”, either works fine.”
I think you would know already that abuse can be very deceptive and manipulative and hard to determine that you’re being controlled by it. But it is true that once people educate themselves to recognize abuse and understand they have power to ditch it, it is, well, Empowering!
Nice paragraphs! 🙂
Protection from abuse is much more than being able to recognize it. It occurs most often when there is a power differential. That’s why “ditch the exclusivity belief” is so important. If you believe exclusivity in a religious system, the potential of getting tossed out is excruciatingly painful. A person will ditch any and all virtues to avoid the possibility of getting condemned to eternal fire and pain. I have seen people twist themselves like pretzels to avoid getting the boot from the meetings. Their integrity is shattered, their souls are empty.
So ditching the exclusivity is taking the power back from those who lord it over you. It is taking back your integrity. It is reclaiming your soul and authenticity. It makes you whole again. (I don’t mean you by “you”, just the general idea).
No one should ever allow anyone to control the gates of heaven. “Work our your own salvation…..”.
Dear BGM – I’ll try to continue my paragraphiness. 🙂
Thank you for sharing with me your thoughts. I know this is healthy, and it’s healthy for us to discuss things with others who don’t always see things the same way and yet are willing to have an impassioned but friendly discussion. With the reminder that the thing that actually brought us into the same conversation is a serious and sensitive subject.
I do know that you are right about power difference automatically causing a vulnerability that has been seriously taken advantage of. And I know that the ex-communications that have happened within various areas of our fellowship are a bit horrific in my book. And I can speak with some personal painful experience regarding that.
I totally understand that this of knowing you could go somewhere else no problem that it can take away the hurt of being kicked out because you belong essentially “anywhere”. However, this is the part that I cannot agree with. On paper it sounds good. Just hop from church to church, fellowship to fellowship every time you get into a problem or difference that causes strife or worse yet, excommunication. Or someone abuses you in one way or another. Just move on, go somewhere else.
It’s just that it solves nothing, it heal no wounds. In part because we take ourselves with us. In part because every where are humans. You’re saying that if they have no power over you, then they can’t hurt you. The truth is that it still hurts some. If a stranger on the street insults me, it hurts and affects me for a good while. I’m a people pleaser. But I know that us females are a bit more susceptible to this. I say that people crave a sense of belonging. It’s why they gladly drink the exclusive kool-aid. We need to be close enough to people so that they have opportunity to hurt us – not for that purpose but for the reason that that’s the place where we can develop trust and receive comfort and assurance, and let that very special love grow by which we are to be known. It comes with the risk of being hurt. And when we are hurt, if we just move on to the next place we don’t ever process the hurt and and hold people accountable and neither do we grow.
Here’s where I believe that protection of non exclusivity can be healthily practiced. Jesus respected the priests for their God-given position. They condemned him and asked him to be crucified. And he died for their sins and asked God to forgive them. And then the months following were horrible days of God’s vengeance. The just suffering for the unjust.
and while being abusively insulted, He did not insult in return; while suffering, He did not threaten, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
This – this shows what protected Jesus – he entrusted himself to God who judges righteously.
We have the bad habit of thinking mere humans are God and when they fall from grace we are offended. We respect the workers for their place and love them and we understand that they are given to us as helpers in our Joy. When we are falsely accused and misunderstood by them and we know in our heart that we are right before God, we have a right to count what they are doing as wrong. And we can forgive them, which in no way creates reconciliation. Forgiveness we can do in our heart between us and God for the protection of our heart and brain.. Reconciliation is a long sometimes painful process where at least one side has to change before fellowship can happen again. Nobody deserves full access to my heart and brain. I love and appreciate the workers. They might be able to excommunicate me from their area of responsibility. But that doesn’t mean that they are right. I can either fight it by contacting others or I can patiently wait it out. You mentioned this too. I also think either way is accurate at different times. But to just give up and move on doesn’t fix or heal anything.
Peter’s 1st letter covers all of this in very clear detail.
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God are to entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
Very glad that you said that we have moved beyond Irving (think you met William Irvine). Wonder if you could educate the overseer and workers in my state and probably most other states about him if you have time. I asked them about Irvine and they said they really did not know much about him and couldn’t tell me much of anything. I told them they should consider reading a book by Cherie Kropp – Preserving the Truth but they just read the Bible and the funnies in the newspaper. This book also contains a lot about the early days of SA/CSA in the church. William himself had a illegitimate kid – a big deal in those days.
Hello Max. I don’t give Irving too much real estate in my brain. I believe he was riding the change wave at the right time and that God could use him at that moment and I’m very thankful for that. But pride got the best of him and his actions have allowed others to have occasion to level many criticisms at our fellowship until this day. Why should the workers have to explain this to others? We’ve moved on. I don’t think it’s wrong to say that we are from the beginning. How is that different than saying the Christians were of the seed of Abraham because they had the same faith as Paul explains so graphically in Romans? If all of us are reading our bibles and letting it direct us and happily listening to others’ revelations in our fellowship and ministry while simultaneously comparing what they say to what we find in the Bible – isn’t that clearly taking what we do from the beginning? I don’t deny that we have a bunch of crazy unprofitable traditions brought in from the ones who were trying to escape what they thought was wrong – and I believe they didn’t understand what was wrong and so they brought those wrong things with them. And that’s all of us, our first generations of our families who found this fellowship. But as we continue to read and get closer to the love of Jesus, we can be more and more cleansed from those dead works. As I mentioned above, I think that we’ve come a long way. Any change away from traditions is traumatic and if we completely disrespect the ones who came out of what they thought was bondage and lies and now tell them that they are propagating bondage and lies, shame on us. The older ones amongst us need our support through all of these changes because I think that many truly feel that we are losing everything godly when we feel like it’s becoming more godly. And if it weren’t for their seeking for something to satisfy their souls, we’d never have the privilege of being a part of this awesome fellowship. Intreat them as fathers and mothers who really desired the best for their children.
Oops, Important correction – “I don’t believe it’s wrong to say WHAT WE HAVE is from the beginning”. I do believe it’s not correct and in fact quite presumptuous to say that WE are from the beginning.
Dreadful that most of the friends and probably some of the workers in South Korea are blinded or want to be rather blinded from facing the facts. Many young friends who faced the facts had to leave the meeting as they were regarded as friends over taken by devil’s trick. Recently I’d tried to explain what had happened in North America to our friends. They said it can’t be true and the orgin of our meeting is from Williams Irvine is not of our meeting but other group. I couldn’t help but stop the conversation. I have been professing for 37 years but not any longer from last year. I am willing to go back only when the workers offically announce that our meeting started from 1897 by men named Williams Irvine and John Long. They are taking advantage it to keep their power. I want them to serve Jesus from their heart and release themselves from this origin myth. This will free us from many things.
I have read with interest all the posts here.I agree that there are scriptures that need to be visited again that the correction of keeping us united “as one body” takes hold.It is interesting to me why any would think there being one ministry or one body is arrogant.This natural body that God has set our life in clearly teaches this.This is the one thing that we learn from it.The members are in fellowship together under one head.Wether we are upset or not with the ministry is irrelevant.It is the ministry that God uses to graft us into the vine.I am not a worker or an exworker,but i am a believer.As God is able to correct us as individulas he is also able to correct his ministry.If you believe that all the “christian churches”constitute Christ’s church, where is the fellowship between them?Between the catholic and the protestant there is a great divide,there is no unity among any of them.In one of the letters to the churches(the churches were all of the same belief) in revelation Jesus mentioned of this one woman who was teaching a doctrine to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality.But he said”i have given her space to repent and she repented not,behold i will cast her into a bed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation.God’s son is watching over his church.He gives space for people to change.But he added i will kill her children with death(those who were following that doctrine).The point i am trying to make is Christ is the head over his body.As members of his body we can have full assurance the head is still in control,not the members,including the ministry.There is a saying in the world which i believe is a good reminder “you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater”.You throw out the unclean water.By that i mean anything that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ.Paul mentioned to us(i believe it is more powerful to think that the spirit mentioned to us) when correcting that it be done in the spirit of meekness considering our own selves lest we also be tempted.Remember Jesus warning to us “a house divided cannot stand”.Remember how our own body loves every member loves all its other members and does everything in its power to save a member.And if a member has to be cut off it is not with joy but with great sorrow.I know how grevious some of these things are and the hurt done to its members.But like it says in the letter to the hebrews ,”make a straight path for your feet that that which is lame be not turned out of the way”but let it be healed”.Do not let Satan get an advantage over us by dividing us.As God said to David,because you have done this thing you have given God’s enemies great cause to blaspheme.Some of these things which are reported are grevious for sure.One second to last thing what Jesus said to us and this is a commandment(we were not given many)”that you love one another as i have loved you,by this shall all men know you are my disciples. The last thing i would mention that kind of shook me was what Jesus said”behold the kingdom of God is within you”.There is where we have to pay attention.Sorry about the length of this!!
Darrell, whew your lengthy comment is nothing to all of mine taking up space on this page and as a result I have no right to make even one more comment. But I just want to thank you for having the courage to write all that you did. In fact it really helped me to clarify my own thoughts on these things. I would never be presumptuous as to say that I think the ones in this fellowship are the only ones that can be saved. Who are we to decide who is saved or not. If others find salvation in other forms of fellowship or by feeling connected to Christians everywhere (still a form of exclusivity) or whatever – that’s between them and God. But for myself, there is no other option. And in those same churches in Revelations that you mentioned – those that were right in churches with even grievously wrong offenses – they were commended. They weren’t asked to separate themselves. Instead he gave them extra assurance so that they could stay and be a clear witness to what was right before God through Jesus (That’s my interpretation anyway).
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I love all that you shared about the special oneness that we can be a part of. It’s not exclusivity if we want everyone in the world to be with us. Neither is it arrogant to be clear about the gospel that brought life to us. All that you said about the disagreements between the different churches. Yes. And when Jesus was here he didn’t accept all of the factions of Judaism that were in effect when he came into the world. Rather, he condemned all of them. He forgave anyone, religious or not, who came to him with a repentant heart. I think we can still love everyone everywhere – that’s right. But that very special love that comes from a close fellowship based on our common salvation and waiting for Jesus’ return, that’s what I want to be a part of, that love that marks those that are His disciples.
Educate and empower.I love this church as you do!!I love the horrible pit in my life it brought me out of.I am so sorry for the hurt that has been done.I too have seen things that have been taught that had no scripture to use as right correction.I have seen things that to me are misrepresented by scriptures being isolated.I certainly do not consider myself an expert or would exalt myself over others.But in my heart i believe this with all of it(my heart),it was the death of Jesus on the cross that opened the way for us to approach God though we were sinners.In the 27th chapter of John’s gospel it details Jesus death on that cross.In th 50th and 51st verse it says “Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up the ghost,immediately the veil in the temple was rent in twain.This veil represented that the way to God’s throne of grace was not yet opened to us while that first covenant was standing(from hebrews).Upon Jesus death God tore it in two.We were now under a new covenant where God promised he would no longer remember our sin and iniquities because through our faith in the death of his son we would find forgiveness.Paul when writing to the corinthians in those first two chapters explained this to them”when i came to you i determined not to know anything among you but Jesus Christ and him crucified that your FAITH would not stand in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.This is the cornerstone of our salvation.This is where our faith was intended to be.It is our FAITH in the death of his son that is saving us,not because of any righteousness of our own conduct.We understand his teachings to us are our guide of conduct in the world and in our fellowship,but we are saved by his death on the cross for us.Jesus in all the gospels said over and over and over”Your faith has made you whole.God is going to justify us by this not because of how succesful we keep laws.And through this faith God will be able to correct our behaviour.I hope i am not violating this site because i know it isn’t a site meant to us to preach at one another.Nor am i trying to be a teacher of any.Over the last few years i have heard more about our conduct than about our faith.If the only reason Jesus came to earth was to teach us how to live he could have ascended back to heaven without dieing.The law had already showed us how to live.He came so that sinners could have a way back to God.I hunger for these things.Things that open to our understanding the son of God.I have loved the spirit of some of those who have posted on this sight.I pray that whatever correction the ministry needs they can receive it.I am praying for them.When Paul approached Peter(the account is in galations) the believers were being led away by his hypocrisy(he was preaching one thing but doing another).Paul said even Barnabus was carried away with this contradiction.But he said Peter was to be blamed.If we don’t believe workers can be carried away in a teaching this account teaches something different.We need our ministry but i believe what is happening amongst us now they are to be blamed .We need them to rise up to hold up to us Christ and him crucified that our faith will be able to withstand every fiery dart!!I hope one day i might get to meet some of you here in this site!!
Educate and Empower – I cannot agree with you when you say it’s not wrong to state we are from the beginning. This way is not from the beginning as it was founded as many other churches were founded. However, what can be said is that the ministry does attempt to model some of the instructions Jesus gave his disciples. I really don’t like the perpetuation of these lies. This church cannot be traced back more than 120 years when it was founded that is the fact. The secrecy and the twisting of the things has to stop.
SS, that was my bad, and I realized the error and tried to correct it as quickly as I can. I don’t find find the lack of teaching the beginnings of our current fellowship as secrecy and twisting. It’s just not profitable. I don’t believe we have the right to say we are the exclusive ones. But when people are in need of the gospel, they don’t need all that clutter. They need something that gives them comfort and hope again. I truly think the exclusivity idea was done in all honesty and good faith but then as everything does, it quickly got gobbled up by the human. And anything that can be gobbled by pride and fed to the human nature, I doubt was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don’t speak that with conviction, just doubt.
i live on vancouver island canada and i see your time stamp so obviously we are in different time zones.And i understand your not agreeing with me.Here is an interesting thing(to me).Every human being on this planet believe something.Wether it is evolution,budah,mohammed or wether we just live and die,and thats it.But it is all a belief.And it will affect how we live.I am very familiar about william Irving and all those Earlier workers who were moved to go out in the manner of what was written.I too believe that this account is true.I know that bothers some in this faith.But this “way” is from the beginning.I will paste this for a reference.I am not trying to “school”you as i believe you read your bible too or you wouldn’t have visited this site,it is just a reference..This is pasted from John’s gospel..“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.End of Quote.This prayer of Jesus was also for us who would believe on him through their witness of him.And this witness of Christ(through the witness of those apostles) God has preserved for every generation.In Matthews gospel he mentioned to them after his ressurection “and lo i am with you always ‘even to the end of the earth.I believe he was meaning he would be with their witness of him right to the end of the world.I believe when these men(William Irving etc.) put their faith in what these apostles had witnessed the spirit of God was with them.I have loved that our faith is built on an eyewitness account not a theory,those who believe we are the product of a series of accidents in the cosmos is not based on an eyewitness,our faith has a great advantange.You will remember in the creation how that the spirit of God moved on the face of the waters and change began to take place.Anyone watching would not see the power that was causing this.But here is what i find reassuring.As these men went out in faith of what the apostles had written things began to realign with the word of God.No one was leaving all they had to preach the word of God when these men began to do this,there was no being taught by God,it was all done through theology colledges.the religous world was not being taught by a revelation but by a theology school that aligned with their doctrine.Jesus was very clear when he said this to peter”flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father in heaven.His church is taught by a revelation of Christ given by God.Then the meeting together in the home,this was not being done in the world when these men began their ministry.And then Paul said that when they would come together all could have a part.This was and is not even now done in any church in the world.You go and listen to the minister.The gospel meetings are different though.So we see all these things changing and realigning with the scriptures.So was it being done by the spirit of God or were they just another religous bunch?I choose to believe it was Jesus promise”and lo i am with you always to the end of the world”(the promise of those who would put their faith in their witness of him)being fulfilled.Some of those men became puffed up and no longer continued in “the way”.And this description “this way” is also very scriptual as Paul stated in acts”and i persecuted”THIS WAY” .Again i am not trying to school you, But just declaring where my assurance has come from.I am not trying to defend any of the immorality that any of these may be guilty of but i am a defender of “this way”because it aligns with the witness of the apostles which is the foundation of which our faith is built upon.Sorry this reply is so long.But like you i love the scriptures and the faith in the son of God it has begotten in me.I am very sorry for any hurt done to any who visit this site.There is only one way for hurt to ever be healed(in my simple opinion).It happens when we can find the strength to forgive.This is where you usually end up from therapy.It may take time but it is unfailing.It will lift the burden off of us who are able to do this.
Hello Darrell, Thanks again for your well thought out and informative response. It is on me that you thought I was disagreeing with you. The problem was that I was bringing in a bunch of other discussions to the way I answered you and why what you said helped give me clarity to my own thoughts. So let me try to clear things up. But I have a bad habit of too many words, sorry.
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I’ve tried not to be too too strong in stating my own beliefs and feelings here because you know, I’m female lol and so when I give in to my emotions and clearly state my feelings on something, it has not impressed anyone. So I have tried to keep my head and keep a perspective as to why others might be thinking the way they are. These are days of processing and while a lot of these things are not directly tied to CSA/SA I think that it’s causing a lot of people to clarify within themselves the beliefs they have, and we all need that.
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You can’t pay too much attention to my time stamp, because sometimes I work at odd hours and sometimes I can’t sleep. LoL. I can see that the moderators are also now working around the clock. It used to be that no comment got posted until a certain point in the morning. But now comments are getting posted almost all night long.
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We get accused that we think we are the only ones who can get saved. But I say most of us understand that God is the judge of that. Being in the way doesn’t mean that we are saved. And I would never say that those “outside the way” are going to a lost eternity. I would say that growing up, I was told this, and I’m not sure if it was an error in my parents’ thinking or if the workers were pushing that ideology as well. But since then I’ve learned to let God be the judge of that, and I would say that every worker I’ve heard since I’ve started paying attention to them to has the same impression. We do, however, have the right and responsibility to test the spirits and see if they are of God or not. And so yes, we can get a general idea of where someone stands, and that’s not wrong, it’s safe. We can be fooled by those who have learned to mimic the way the spirit would look in a person. But I’m not sure it matters too often. Because those in the meetings are all in different places in their spiritual journey. However, I can see why people are calling into question this way of “judging” if someone is “one of us” or not. Because of some terrible abuses that have occurred that have broken that trust. And I’m sorry for effect it has had on all of us. Because all of us are bearing the blame of the ones who have so egregiously violated the trust that their place of responsibility required.
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When I mentioned, how can we be called exclusive when we want to include everyone? That wasn’t directed at you – that was directed at the accusations against us. And, while I do believe that this is the only right way for me. I do know that part of the problem is that there have been those who have proudly stated this. I remember one couple from one area I lived who constantly would get up in every fellowship meeting and state how thankful they were to be saved from false religion. I know that they meant it from the bottom of their heart in thankfulness to God because they had been quite religious and quite involved in their church. And so their comments were not actually comments of pride. Rather, they felt ashamed that they had been so deceived and were thankful for those that saved them from false ways. However, the way they stated it, they really got on the nerves of many in their meetings and at conventions because they came across as being so arrogant.
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When we find something that really strikes a chord within us and clearly seems to follow the doctrine being taught which clearly seems to only come from the Bible, sometimes it can set up blind spots that leave us vulnerable to being taken advantage of by abusers of their positions of responsibility. I speak from personal experience as this all was much intertwined in the beginning days of my family coming into the fellowship and caused a lot of lasting troubles. When people are so sure that these are the servants of the Most High God, sometimes we forget that they are human and we let down our guard, and then when things happen, we can’t even see it, we can’t process it, because it’s just not within our thinking that a servant of God who brought us life could do something like that to us or our child. And this can lead to lasting trauma and a questioning of beliefs. Were the abusers wrong? Absolutely. But the reason they got such easy access was an error in the group mindset. Paul spent much of his letters to the Corinthians, especially the 2nd letter, trying to combat this very thing. He starts out in the 3rd chapter, Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? And he becomes a lot bolder and clearer by the 10th chapter.
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We love a ministry that we can be proud of, that we can put on a pedestal for all the world to see how righteous they are and we are for having them. I would say this was more a problem within us when it was a fashion to be a church goer in general, at least in the usa and Canada. Nowadays it’s a whole different mindset, largely in part due to abuses of power by church clergy. Paul gave clear lists of things they had a right to expect in the ministry. But people are naturally drawn to and fooled by narcissistic people because they usually have an air of authority and are charismatic. And that’s on us. Because if we were mindful of the things written in the Bible, we would recognize those that are abusing their place of trust. But because in our mindset we’d already decided that the workers were to be 100% believed and obeyed, and so we felt trapped and like we couldn’t ever say anything, and we taught our children this same mindset. It’s a known issue with anyone in authority, not just workers. But this isn’t just a work place – we tend to trust the workers with so much of our hearts.
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This is why there is a big move on this site to strip away the power of exclusivism because it has caused people to feel that there is no way out. And I get that. But I think it undermines the wrong thing and is not actually solving the problem – rather it strips away a sense of belonging that gives people such comfort and love (I am speaking merely from a natural standpoint). Paul said of himself in Gal 1 that if they were to bring something other than the gospel, let them be accursed. It’s our fault that we got into this mindset that we had to blindly believe, obey and follow everyone no matter what. Because it’s not backed by scripture. Paul called out Peter in front of a whole bunch of people for doing something they clearly thought was backed by the old law and would be expected to continue – racism.
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Those that are vulnerable need to be taught what they have a right to expect from the ministry, and signs of grooming tactics. And that someone will give validation to their worries and concerns (and then trained professions can get to the root of the real problem which can be sometimes quite difficult with children, who can realize something is wrong but they don’t yet have the ability to figure out WHAT is wrong). And that’s all of us, we are all vulnerable to a degree, but our children and young workers come to mind as those that are in extra vulnerable positions amongst us. To me this is a clear following of the Bible. Like you said, we are to be known by our love one to another. And it’s only right that people have an understanding of what is clearly not of God so that they minimize the potential for an abuser to gain access. Satan clearly uses tactics of apparent trustworthiness to gain access to where he doesn’t belong.
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This is why I sign my letters, Educate and Empower. Because if a child, or a young worker, or anyone else, knows they have a right to mark something as not in line with the spirit of Jesus, and they also know that others will listen to them and validate their concerns and keep their confidences, this is empowerment. To me this is an important way to quickly and powerfully change the dangerous mindset that has allowed grievous offenses to be committed amongst us. Not only that, I think it is more in line with scripture so that we are not deceived by charismatic speaking and airs of authority. I thought of Jesus upbraiding the disciples for not believing Mary Magdalene when she carried the news of his resurrection. She had seven devils within her – she must have been difficult to be around, and had no credibility. But Jesus had healed her and he expected the others to respect the work that he had done within her and to believe her when she spoke.
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I 100% agree with you that healing starts with the power of forgiveness. I think for myself, for years I’ve misunderstood what forgiveness is, and it can feel like the victim just has to eat all of the wrong that has been done to them and have 100% mercy to the offender and then be with them in the same vulnerable way as before. We feel terribly guilty when we just can’t get over stuff because it feels like we are not going according to what Jesus taught. Because the offender has apologized, then we are the wrong ones for not completely accepting them and trusting them. And some have unfortunately taught this as right.
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Forgiveness is powerful because it MARKS THINGS WRONG. And so when I am clear that what has been done to me is wrong, it can be processed in an entirely different way. It’s a surprisingly difficult effort to mark things wrong when we see the offender as like an angel from God and almost incapable of sinning. Because then if something goes wrong, it’s obviously my fault. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. After Jesus forgave people, they didn’t become best buds. When he asked God to forgive them who put him on the cross, that didn’t mean they were suddenly right. The process of reconciliation where there can be fellowship and trust again is a much longer process that may never happen if there is no change on the part of the offender. Forgiveness gives the pain and hurt a way of escape out of the heart. Holding people in places of victimhood for the sake of bringing further hurt to the offender doesn’t help the victim to heal. God wants to free us from oppression and binding. Forgiveness allows us to not be triggered by future issues. Forgiveness protects the heart. Forgiveness allows us to see that many offenders were victims to begin with, and how to break free from that cycle. Even in much smaller offenses, I’ve learned that when I mark something wrong or inappropriate, not only does it protect my own heart, it also helps me process it and deal with it in a way that also benefits the offender.
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Love knows the right way to deal with wrong things. Love doesn’t enable. Love understands that some people will sometimes need permanent boundaries so that they don’t bring further condemnation to themselves.
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Even if I were to have something to say that is an epiphany and would solve every problem known to mankind, nobody could read it because I use too many words. My sincere apologies.
Thank you SS and Robyn to agree with me that the church was not from the beginning but started by William Irvine in 1897, just like Joe Smith founded the Mormons and moved them to Salt Lake. God does not like liars – that is even one of his 10 commandments I think. So when 2E and other friends and workers say it is from the beginning, not sure what to think of them. This is all making me buzzy headed and getting away from what this site is supposed to be about – CSA/SA.
Max, am I reading correctly that you feel that I am a liar? I am sorry I gave you that impression. I guess I don’t understand what the big deal is, and maybe you can clue me in. I’ve always heard that Jesus is the way. When people say we come from Jesus, I know what they mean is that what we are following is from Jesus. I’m sorry you’ve had such a different experience it seems and feel that you were deceived. I believe the facts are far more amazing than any ideals that people take pride in.
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Yes we have traditions that come from other churches and we have hymns from other churches in our Hymnbook. And they are wonderful hymns. Why don’t all Christian churches state the same thing as we do? If they’re using the Bible, well, that’s the same text book, and it starts out with the words “in the beginning”. That’s as beginning as it gets, no matter how you interpret the events surrounding the beginning of life on earth. Irving was just riding on the waves of a period of Christian enlightenment that had already been in place for a while. Long enough for people to get somewhat dissolutioned with the way things were being done, it seems to me. So Irving gets an “enlightenment” from reading the Bible and simultaneously was a charismatic leader and it was such a noteworthy revolution that even the newspapers were writing about it. To me this speaks clearly of a greater work happening well before Irving was born. God was stirring the pot. Irving got a following because he struck a chord with people who were looking for it. Leaders can only be leaders if people follow them. It was all a bit of a chaotic mess just like most beginnings, including what we read in Acts.
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Have you ever wondered why throughout the Old Testament that serving God never really took hold and they were just as apt to follow some God of the neighbors that people would serve likely for good luck? But then oddly, everyone was over-the-top religious in Jesus’ day. I personally find this a bit shocking when you start to put the pieces together.
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I love to hear the stories of those reading the Bible and from their studies they developed a picture of how things should be if God’s way existed on the earth. And sometimes they have passed on before the workers came, but their children recognized it because of what their relative talked about. These stories happen in surprising and disconnected and far reaching places and not a few of them either, though I confess I can only remember two stories off the top of my head. These are the quiet unnamed ones that helped to keep the Irving followers going even though all they were doing was reading the Bible, without having any idea such an Irving even existed. if the workers have to start telling the story of irving’s enlightenment at the beginning of every gospel meeting mission, it wouldn’t be complete without sharing these amazing and totally disconnected but very connected stories.
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These things seem like quite an aside from the CSA/SA issues at hand. But I do know everyone is processing how they are going to go forward with the given the current revelations and climate and I think that’s healthy.
I was looking for opinions on this subject and I found your essay to be pretty educational. I now view the subject at hand from a new angle. Thanks!
Jonathan:
What about friends who are left quite lukewarm by what you present? Don’t see Christ in it? What about workers, young and old as equally unenthused ?
I guess there will be enough of you who will be enthused? Will you have ministry? What will that look like? Married ministers, doing it as well as holding down a job/business?
interested in your response
Lukewarm refers to mixing law with grace. That is not a reference to the level of enthusiasm. We are either under the covenant of law or the covenant of grace. When you mix the two you lose the purpose of both. Jesus makes it very clear how he feels about those that do such an act.
So, the real question is do the friends, workers, young and old follow even just one law? If so, then they are already lukewarm. I will not make that judgement, but honest self-examination is needed by us all.
The only piece of God’s armor we can use to help a brother is the shield of faith. For a time, we can stand between them and the darts of Satan. We do this with our children as they grow in life. However, it seems most love to whip out the sword of the spirit, God’s word, and wave it all about. Poking and jabbing not at the enemy but at those they are walking with. Please examine the way you asked your questions above. Is it with love? Are you standing the gap? Could it be jabbing a brother with the sword?
Honesty or truthfulness is a facet of moral character that connotes positive and virtuous attributes such as integrity, truthfulness, straightforwardness, including straightforwardness of conduct (earnestness), along with the absence of lying, cheating, theft, etc. Honesty also involves being trustworthy, loyal, fair, and sincere.
interested in your response
In the biblical usage of lukewarm it is referring to mixing the covenant of law with the covenant of grace. When one does this, they miss the purpose of each covenant. It has nothing to do with the level of enthusiasm. We should be under one or the other.
Wrong is wrong, in a word. I respect every post as they are coming from your own interpretation which went through your own experiences and times. We are not here to against each other but to support victims and this meeting for it to be in a better ground.
The account of beginning, someone said God stirred Williams Irvine to go forward to follow as what is written in the Bible, but that won’t gurantee that our meeting is the only the way. Jesus is THE way.
God stirs our each hearts as well but that doesn’t mean that we could establish a new group and insist it was the true God’s way. And as you all understand, this is how thousands of groups being made.
When I was 15 years old, I did belive what the workers presented, this is the only true way and can be saved when we accept Jesus only through these workers who go out two by two. Only the true way and Only through the workers,,,,, no other ways.
The manner should be respected which going out two by two but that doesn’t mean that it is the only way. Mormon does the same. And what else can prove that it is the only way? No job, no belongings, no marriage and homeless….?
There are many workers, yet, speaking out on the platform that we can be saved only through these workers sent two by two and we are the only ones God sent.
Couldn’t just bear it as I FEAR of God.
Some says it has nothing to do with CSA crimes. But I’d like to say that
even when we want to do cleaning our own room, we have to dust off and put our things in their places firstly and then we work with the floor next.
The workers should stop telling us this origin myth by announcing our start began from the year 1897 to follow the same manner of ministry of Jesus’s time, no more than that.
God dwells in the Heaven and our each heart, not here and there. I deeply appreciate the workers and friends that they had acquainted me with this simple truth.
But we shouldn’t ever lie with God’s only way but be honest to our Father who dwells in each of US, instead. Our salvation solidly depends on our own faith according to Jesus teaching. Thanks for reading it and bearing my poor English.
Robyn – much rather read your posts than those that get off the CSA track with wordy preachy sermons that I have no idea what they are talking about. Thanks very much for you honest response. Agree with every word.
Hello educate and empower.I sure don’t mind acronyms for a name(i hope i am using this word correctly).It matters not about names but about the spirit behind what is written.That does matter.When i awoke this morning my heart was pricked about my post from last evening .I reread this morning what i had posted last night .None of what i post is ever meant as me instructing but from a spirit of sharing things that have been bread to me personally, as i believe that is your spirit.The end of the commandment is love from a pure heart,if my faith in Christ is not producing in me love for the body i am missing everything God has done for me a sinner.I have had to learn some hard lessons,but i have loved what the lessons have taught me,mainly that i am the judge of no one(as i was sometimes before).This comment is not subtely directed at any one here who post.I just wanted to clarify that i love our workers,my comments might have indicated i feel differently,that is what pricked my heart.God has called them out from among us and they have left forsaking all of the things that this life could have given them,to bring salvation to the likes of someone like me.And they have gone in faith not knowing their future .They are not impervious to temptation (i am not trying to justify any wrong that some might have done)as they to are in a body of sin as i am,only death will free us from it.Most of them love their sheep.Here is what sin does”tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that does evil,to the jew first and also to the gentile.Our faith although it is what saves us is not a ticket for us to sin.It will bring us into judgement(a visit from God)as in David’s trespass.This warnig is not only for saints(believers)but to those in the ministry too.I left this fellowship because i had been caught up in sin(not csa).I got taken up with a divorced woman.I myself was a married man when i came to the fellowship but my wife left me because of the faith.So when i mention about tribulation for a wrong i am speaking from experience not a theory.God is able to reach inside of us like no man ever could.That is why i have learned about forgiveness ,it is this very spirit that lifts the burden of our guilt.But as is written in John’s letter.If we awknowledge our transgression God is faithful and just to forgive us.But we have to awknowledge to him our wrong as David did”i have sinned”.Adam and eve did not receive a covering of their nakedness till they had confessed they had eaten of that tree.God added no other requirement.He does not want us repeating our errors.I will end here as once more i have stated far more than i intended.But my error (i married this woman,i don’t take part in meeting,it bothers me not)has lifted Christ to me in a way i would not have seen before.When we feel we are pushed beyond strength it is so we may learn to trust in God and not ourselves.
this morning i reread the post “abuse of power”.I don’t deny this exists.It can get into anyones heart if we are not careful to remember we are flesh and blood.Troubles start when we begin to think of men(and women,i do believe when we say men in this context we are including women,always)above what is meet(or what our place is).They are ministers by whom we have believed,they are not Lords over our faith,as some have posted this scripture here already,they are to be helpers of our joy(and many are).The part i found in this post that i found troubling”The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right”.We do not think it is”we”that are right,but that the scriptures are right.And “this way”(or structure)is how it has been recorded.We have no trust in any other”way”.It isn’t self righteousnes that we believe this(I am not trying to say that doesn’t get into believers).In Peter’s letter he said”All scripture is given by the spirit.So we have to pay attention to the things that the spirit of God left on record to guide us.And this”struture” is there.But not the abuse of power.And what scripture is there that teaches us that “this way” isn’t the only way?There is only “one body”.And if “every way” is right where is the fellowship?We have no fellowship with others because we don;t trust every way is of God,this belief separates us from them,not because we despise them.And every debate ends up concerning “the way”.Catholics,baptists,Anglicans,Presbyterians,etc.Is there fellowship among them?Are they not divided?And many of us like myself have come out from among them.I never came out from them ever thinking they were not right.Before i ever understood that the gathering together of the church was in “a home”,Jesus sending them out in the ministry two and two together,being homeless etc.This simple thing came into my understanding,”i have found Christ’s church.I will borrow Paul’s words here”before God i am telling the truth,i lie not”.No one could ever make me believe i was talked into this because i was ignorant of all these details,no one had had a chance to “indoctrinate me”.I enterd this fellowship by a revelation before i ever understood what “a revelation”was.I do not condemn any other “church”,i just don’t trust “their way”.What i am about to say is not to condemn any other “way”,or say they are the beast,but just to point out something about unity(i don’t understand about the beast really,so this is not what this line is about)that it had many heads.It wasn’t one head guiding it.What i am meaning is about the unity of the body(one head guiding it).When it is the spirit of God leading there will not be division,there will be “one body”and fellowship in that body.In my mind this is not a problem in the fellowship,it is a strength.It isn’t something to exalt ourselves in.This to me is a very helpful little thought .A “ship”(fellowship) is meant as a way for people to travel above “the sea”.It keeps us separated from “the sea”.I know many won’t like this post,but it is not arrogance or selfrighteousness at work in my words.Everyone can believe what they want.But then you have to try and justify your belief(it should be to yourself).Peter said”be ready with an answer to those who ask you the reason of your hope”.I have found no scripture that condemns this ministry or this”structure”(for lack of a better word).I do find scripture that condemns the behavior and conduct of those mentioned on this site.Their needs to be corrections,some of the doctrine and how it has been interpreted(needs to be revisited,for the sake of unity).
because doctrine does matter.The unity of the body comes from the “doctrine of Jesus Christ and him crucified,that has always been and always will be the cornerstone of this ‘body”.That is where this “new life” begins in us.It is what holds the body together.It is where our forgiveness comes from,our faith in this,not in ourselves or our righteousness.When this message begins to change,it is going to bring confusion and error into the body.I don’t say these against the writer of this post.I desire no “fist fight”with any .But i do trust “this way” and don’t believe this is a foundational problem in our fellowship.It is a strength.It is Just how i believe.You have every right to disagree with me.It brings no resentment from me.And in fairness we should not be condemned either because of us believing this.I will say this ,with all respect to workers,this site exists for a reason,because many who have been hurt,many who might have erred but still are filled with faith and have been cast aside are not being listened to.To me this is not the spirit of Christ at work.
Jonathan,
Thank you for your eloquent letter which expresses that of my own heart.
Eric
Anyone reading this that wants to have further conversations about these issues in a different setting where we can actually converse, please reach out to me at garner.shaned@gmail.com
Educate and empower .I apologize.My last post was in response to the post which opens this particular blog(if that is the right terminology)Abuse of power.So i am sorry for that. and also to whoever posted abuse of power my post was not written to say you are wrong but just to post another point of view of why for me i believe it is not problematic to believe in one body.To me it is more scriptual than believing the alternative, that every “structure” of religous worship is of the spirit of God.
Darrell, Thanks for responding and all that you wrote. I have been silent for two very important reasons … one is I got snowed at work and had to really concentrate on that. The other is that for some reason I got it in my mind that if i had a wordpress account, it would help me. But for some reason I couldn’t comment anymore – I just don’t think I knew what I was doing. So then I decided to delete the wordpress account. And then I really couldn’t comment. So then I decided to reinstate the account, but never having made a blog or anything I was stuck because I couldn’t prove my identity for reinstating it. So finally my little brain figured out all I needed to do was to change browsers. Nope – not that either lol – have to change emails altogether.
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Anyway, I think it was good for me to have this forced time away. Because even I didn’t spend much time reading comments either. I found it a bit triggering, to use modern day terms. And I am disappointed in myself for that. Because even though I had my own experiences as a child – it wasn’t the csa incident that really affected me. Somehow as a child I was able to recognize that it as too uncomfortable and to not let it happen again. For me the issue was being a part of a family that was marked “wrong”. It felt shameful and I didn’t understand it. As I got older and could process things better, I realized that it was very few who actually felt we were “wrong”, and likely it was our own shame that kept us separated more than anything. But it left a mark on me as a child that I can still struggle with today. So when things are dealt with in black and white – even things as grave as CSA/SA – I’m always aware that there are a whole lot more grey areas that need consideration. Nothing is ever simple – everything is complicated.
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The trauma of being the wife/husband/parent/child of an offender is terribly traumatic, and automatically you are defiled simply by association – even if nobody else feels that way about you – it’s the terrible shame of association.
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When I first learned about Dean Bruer, my first thoughts when to his victims, but my second thoughts were with his family and knowing how traumatic this will be for them. Something they don’t deserve. Yes abuses have patterns – perhaps he inherited some of his problems based on family issues? But even then it just means innocent members are that much more traumatized with shame.
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I love the power of real fellowship and I love how it can be a source of real healing. Jesus doesn’t want us to be victims forever – he wants us to be healed. I don’t say that in any way to undermine the lasting effects of CSA/SA and other emotional abuse. Rather, that I do also feel like our fellowship is from God and that it can be a safe healthy healing place for everyone. And God is cleaning house so that it can be so.
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It is true that God has used those from outside of his family many times in the scriptures to perform his will – because He had not been able to work from within. But – almost always – those working from the outside were not rewarded for their work – usually they were punished for it – because they didn’t do it in a way that brought God the glory. God will go to all lengths to purify his people and make them ready to be a bride for His Son. But his heart is always seeking their good and he will protect his own.
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Slicing off the top rung of the supposed hierarchy is not going to fix anything. It is a no brainer that anyone who has committed any offense by the law should face the consequences. But even when God severely corrected the priesthood, he never sliced them out – ultimately he held each one accountable individually. Not until His son came and paid the ultimate sacrifice did he provide us with a new and lasting priesthood of which he wants us all to be a part.
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I’m convinced more than ever that there is still an issue with the group mindset, just as Paul sought to correct them in II Cor – and it’s what you already said. They wanted letters of commendation – they wanted those that they could be proud of. But Paul showed them how the glory is in fact in the church reflecting the glory of the bridegroom, and the ministry is simply a temporal thing. And as we educate our children and our vulnerable ones, our young sisters and all of us – we can empower and learn to hold people accountable – understanding that the ministry is human will help us to make safe places for all to protect from those that would abuse their place.