Hi Bruce!
Any objective examiner of your system will identify it as having a legalistic lens. Again, that isn’t a bad thing, just not enough.
You are no slug and probably know a lot more about psychology than I do.
I think there is term in psychology for this technique of presenting your opinion couched first with ‘any objective examiner’.
Then a classic ‘Bruce’ to end with “Again, that isn’t a bad thing, just not enough.”
You are ‘clever’, if nothing else.
I said to Kimberlee, you can’t reason with the guy. He’s not open to facts that don’t agree with his ‘facts’!
On another note, not happy at all with the recent responses of some North American Overseers.
But then Bruce muddying the waters with his misinformation about MinistrySafe isn’t a help either. 🤷♂️
Cheers
John
WINGS ForTruth 11 wrote:
Please troll my public posts in public. Thank you.
Wings11/Bruce,
Please be honest with yourself and to the misinformation that you are posting about MinistrySafe!
I carefully and extensively researched what Bruce had posted. There is a LOT more to the story than the links you have posted Bruce. But you have closed your mind to that.
So don’t come the ‘Any objective examiner’ technique with me. I don’t fall for the trick!
Also don’t come your guilt trip ’trolling’ nonsense with me!
Examine, research and understand. You have have it wrong.
But Bruce, my observation of you is that you are not open to that?
I shrug my shoulders, you are shooting no one in the foot except Bruce/WINGS
Go for it!🤷♂️
John
WINGS ForTruth 11
to WINGS, John
Please John. No more sneaky back door stuff. Please do your trolling publicly and be accountable.
to Bruce, wingsfortruth
Please Bruce/WINGS 11
Bruce you have wriggled and been sneaky from the VERY START when warning bells came on for me regarding your post about MinistrySafe and I got in touch with you!
Then I took the time and effort to extensively research and fact check what you have posted.
You fail. Simple!
Reject me trying to help you in your error if you wish!
I have NO INTENTION of getting into an unseemly public debate.
If you and WINGS wish to discredit yourselves by posting misinformation…go for it.
Oh then Bruce your about trolling and sneeky etc comments.
I won’t lose any sleep about nonsense like this that you say about me! 😂
🤷♂️ 😀
Have a great day!
John
WINGS ForTruth 11
to John, wingsfortruth
“I have NO INTENTION of getting into an unseemly public debate.”
That says it all.
Bruce
It sure does! ….of the way that you operate Bruce! But of course your technique is to try put the wrong on me, send me on a guilt trip. Sorry I don’t fall for that! 😀
If you are serious about the FACTS about MinistrySafe and the misinformation written in the NYT article.
Then do the decent honest thing….
Do what I did, contact Kimberlee like I did. Open your mind that actually Bruce doesn’t always get it right. He HASN’T got it right this time.
Norris Love are attorneys for victims not churches. It is misinformation but the NYT writer that you have been duped by!!!!
Why don’t you follow it through and find out the FACTS and how you have been mislead!
I went to the effort to do that!
Otherwise I would have just believed what you posted!
Of course the odds on Bruce being decent or honest or humble enough to that? 🤷♂️
Have a good day!
Cheers
John
WINGS ForTruth 11
to John, wingsfortruth
Thank you for your perspective sir.
WINGS Note: See the original post MinistrySafe: Is it Sufficient? at https://wingsfortruth.info/2024/03/17/ministrysafe-not-the-best-course-for-workers/
There are comments from numerous people, expressing their sincere views about the post, including some from Kimberlee Norris, Founder of MinistrySafe. She disputes some aspects of the quoted NYT and CT articles.
She has also commented “Awareness Training is simply a starting point. Clearly, a one hour course won’t, by itself, adequately address child sexual abuse risk OR response.“
Discover more from WINGS for Truth
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WINGS for Truth 
Bruce
Let me add my final email to you/WINGS
“
Appreciate you considering it!
I want that all than can be done to address historic wrongs within our fellowship is done.
I also want measures are in place for the present and the future.
WINGS is the same?
Posting inadequately non fact checked misinformation about MinistrySafe isn’t working to that end.
But up to you if you wish to hold to your MinistrySafe misinformation. 🤷♂️”
Wishes
John
@John- Wow! Are you a shareholder in Ministry Safe? Have you actually taken the course? I have. I have taken other courses that are similar as well. Ministry Safe is not a bad course, it’s a decent one. I’ve actually taken more thorough ones (due to my work with sexually abused women). Like Kimberlee says it’s a stepping stone. It’s a great first step! It’s definitely NOT the end step, and if that’s all the effort YOU are putting forth, and claiming “you are well taught”, you are the one misleading others. The purpose of Ministry Safe is to show people how to recognize abuse or an abuser. That’s great. We all should be aware and watching. But, the greater good is removing every predator that shows themselves in our fellowship. It’s scriptural to do so. You might try reading this scripturally based book (no specific religion is pushed throughout the book). It’s an easy read, and I almost get the impression that God moved Dale Ingraham to write the book specifically for our fellowship! It’s called: Tearing Down This Wall Of Silence: Dealing With Sexual Abuse In Our Churches. But, if you truly want to understand the MIND of a predator and the fact that they have no conscience, so they can’t think like normal people do, please read: Predators, Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders by Anna C. Salter, PHD It’s a bit of a tough read, but when you are finished (if you actually read the whole thing)…you will be very aware of why these people were put out, in the Bible.
henoffour
a) No I am not a shareholder in MinistrySafe
b)Yes I have taken the Ministry course and updates
c) I have also read and studied about CSA extensively over a number of years and have supported and continue to support a number of victims . I have not read the particular books you refer to but have read others that have been recommended by experienced professionals in the field of CSA.
d)I am in agreement with you about what should be done about predators in our fellowship. I agree it is scriptural to do so.
thanks
John
@Traveller/John Hello John you’re back – have you been travelling? Interesting that you are posting again after being told to step back. Not sure who you claim to be supporting. One that I know of that you supposedly helped – you actually did more harm than good. Please leave victims alone and let the professionals help them so no further harm is done. Thanks
Thank you, Freedom!
The writing style of “John” is very similar to that of someone who posts extensively (and usually combatively) on TMB/professing.proboards.com and several other sites under a variety of user names, e.g. “international studies” and others.
If it is indeed the same individual, such posting would seem to take up quite a lot of his time.
Hello our brother John. (or should we refer to you as Traveller? Please let us know) I want to say thank you, thank you, thank you.
Go raibh míle maith agat!
I am so glad, in no devious, uncertain terms that Wings has finally got one in the ministry to answer the phone. Now I do sense that your hand was somewhat forced, but there is no good will come forth from a talk at the table if the operators of the machinery of religious enterprise are holding their cards close to their chest.
Thanks so much for answering your phone. I know answering the phone in the middle of the night sometimes can be somewhat disconcerting, but I encourage you to wipe the slumber from your eyes, anoint your head, make a coffee if you want, and let us all have a talk. Please try your level best not to storm away from the breakfast table when people are not getting your point.
And some of the points brought up at the table you will have to understand, come from a place of pain. The pain of a broken body, the paint of a broken heart, the pain of realization in people there was spiritual fornication committed with the church, the Bride – all caused by the spirit of religious enterprise.
Thanks so much John for coming to our meeting today.
Nothing as good as self praise aye Mark S, woops I mean traveller, John. So confusing all the names.
Watt is going on here? Janice? John? Watt the Watt? This whole thread is plunging deeper into Crazytown.
Well said
My well said was for you Janice call him out
This poor John guy has a lot of anger and he openly attacks others. I couldn’t make any sense of his arguments as he doesn’t say what position he’s coming from. But the rage and anger, wow that clearly came through in his writings.
HUH? WTF? I am totally confused! You don’t need any kind of training course to know you DON’T DIDDLE AROUND WITH LITTLE KIDS! How dumb can people be? A “Training Course”? Oh brother! SAD…..
You are spot on – good normal people do not need to be “trained” to know that doing CSA is not right. Many workers and members are now saying that they did not know much about CSA and how it effects victims until they completed the Ministry Safe program. Are these people really that dumb?
@Carolclausen and @Bucky – I have seen letters written by workers stating, “I had no idea you were so hurt by what I did to you” So, it took Ministry Safe for the predator to understand how they harmed another for LIFE?? I know that predators have no conscience, but even nature teaches that children are OFF LIMITS and even hardened criminals consider it a heinous crime to touch a child!!!
It is difficult to understand why this word salad was posted, but maybe that was the point. That is the level of discourse we are dealing with.
Opacity, poor articulation, emotive, attacking is why things don’t get better. Being solutions-based, evidence-based and constructive are not exactly hallmarks of this ministry system.
I thought WINGS did a fair commentary and critique of the MinistrySafe system, including offering suggestions to MS and alternatives for readers. That is what being evidence-based and solutions-based looks like.
The person who purports to be from MinistrySafe is equally disappointing. Such petulant replies that offer nothing of value. I even wonder if this person is an imposter as it is difficult to imagine how a professional lawyer could be so, well, unprofessional. If that person is real, I would never recommend using MinistrySafe services.
Yes, this supposed “Kimberlee” asked if I would be interested in speaking with her about my thoughts, but now I know it was John claiming to be her! How do I know, because she has not responded to me, and he has spoken of the conversation that “Kimberlee” and I had.
I also wrote to Kimberlee about accuracy quite awhile ago, and got crickets too.
Watchman, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this:
“The person who purports to be from MinistrySafe is equally disappointing. Such petulant replies that offer nothing of value. I even wonder if this person is an imposter as it is difficult to imagine how a professional lawyer could be so, well, unprofessional. If that person is real, I would never recommend using MinistrySafe services”.
These people, or person with multiple personalities, are somewhat entertaining and do bring a little levity to the serious discussions that are usually pursued here. And, also a reminder why we lock our doors at night.
Wings – I am not that young anymore and it has been many moons since I studied English Composition in College – the above post is very confusing. Could you please clarify who Bruce and John are and what their issue is? And how the New Zealand worker fits in to all of the above? My wife, who has a much higher intelligence than me, can not figure it out either. Thank you very much.
Bruce is me, a WINGS admin. John is a NZ worker.
What his issue is, is beyond me too. Seems to suggest I am spreading misinformation about MinistrySafe but what that misinformation actually is, is also a mystery. If your wife can interpret it, I would be most interested in reading it in English.
Bruce,
The inaccuracy of your posts are ‘not beyond’ Kimberlee Norris.
She states your posts are inaccurate. (See my post above)
I wonder if you would contact her and let her explain. She will write in English and you’ll be able to understand!
John
Oh goodness gracious. I wrote her a long time ago about accuracy and got no response.
Thanks for the color Bruce. I read the above string again from Worker John. Still do not know what he is talking about. Really starting to wonder about the IQ of these guys.
Bruce posted about WINGS about MinistrySafe. I questioned it.
I invited him to check his facts. He wouldn’t. So I did, extensively. They don’t stand well!
Bruce has taken as ‘gospel’ several media links he found about MinistrySafe. 🤷♂️
I also did what I suggested he do but which he didn’t do!
I contacted MinistrySafe and asked them about Bruce’s posts regarding MinistrySafe:
Kimberlee Norris a co founder of MinistrySafe has responded to Bruce’s posts here on WINGS”
“This post is inaccurate: Have you completed any of our trainings?
The purpose behind the creation of ALL our training is to equip Christ-based ministries to PREVENT child sexual abuse, and REPORT suspicions and allegations of child sexual abuse.
CLEARLY, a one hour training isn’t going to comprehensively address the entire subject matter, which is ONE reason why we created many additional trainings addressing additional CSA topics, including seminary course content: Preventing Child Sexual Abuse in Ministry Contexts.
We have represented hundreds of VICTIMS of CSA, which formed the basis of our training offerings: we saw PATTERNS in CSA cases; the abuser’s grooming process.
Our perspective is, and has always been, unabashedly victim-centric, and we’ve been writing about this issue for over 30 years.
Before you speak negatively of someone else’s work, kindly fact check.
If you have specific questions or need additional information in order to do so, please reach out to me directly:
Kimberlee Norris- kdnorris@lovenorris.com
Founder/ MinistrySafe”
and
“Please reach out to me directly to fact check your information; this article contains non-factual material, previously addressed with both the NY Times and CT.
You may reach me here:
Kimberlee Norris- MinistrySafe Founder
kdnorris@lovenorris.com“
@Traveller – Except it wasn’t Kimberly that wrote…it was YOU John.
Are you sure? I’ve spoken with Kimberlee Norris on the phone. This response does seem legit to me. Why do you think John made it up?
@Rebekah Hamon – Yes, Kimberlee’s response above is legit. The rest not so much.
Traveller John (NZ worker) sounds like he’s flown a little to close to the sun. He might want to take a few weeks off to let himself cool down some. Maybe do some simple breathing exercises. That pulse rate appears somewhat high. Does not seem really coherent at this point.
@Henoffour John seems to think he can fool us all, but as others have posted, both here and on TMB, he goes under different names on a regular basis, and thinks we don’t know it’s him each time. Kimberlee seems to be his latest one. He doesn’t seem to realise he is just making a complete idiot of himself! Almost feel sorry for him!
John’s reference to Kimberlee is presumably to Kimberlee Norris of MinistrySafe, who has submitted comments on the WINGS post about MinistrySafe.
She and her husband are lawyers, and they have an associated legal practice to manage crises and minimize risk for clients. MinistrySafe’s website offers legal consultation, and those services are provided through Ms. Norris’s law firm, Love & Norris.
It seems that John is referring to his correspondence with Kimberlee Norris.
@Cdsmith94193e839d – Thank you.
cdsmith94293e839d
Suggest you check with Kimberlee to fact check the accuracy of what you have posted.
Once you have checked with Kimberlee, post again here and let the readers know how she responded to your enquiry.
Thanks 😀
The contact detail you need:
Kimberlee Norris- kdnorris@lovenorris.com
Founder/ MinistrySafe”
She doesn’t respond. That has been stated here twice.
wingsfortruth2
Write to Kimberlee Norris,
State what you have stated here to us
“She and her husband are lawyers, and they have an associated legal practice to manage crises and minimize risk for clients. MinistrySafe’s website offers legal consultation, and those services are provided through Ms. Norris’s law firm, Love & Norris.”
Then post her response to your statement
Or is that asking too much of you?
Thanks!
John
She does not respond. That has been stated twice here today.
Both henoffour and myself attempted to contact her for accuracy information and got silence.
Bruce/BGM
Kimberlee Norris doesn’t respond?
She posted to you:
“Before you speak negatively of someone else’s work, kindly fact check.
If you have specific questions or need additional information in order to do so, please reach out to me directly:
Kimberlee Norris- kdnorris@lovenorris.com
Founder/ MinistrySafe”
I have stated multiple times now on this platform that I have written long ago to “Kimberlee Norris” to ask about accuracy of the article and she has not responded. She has not responded. This has been a long time now. Henoffour has also responded to her offer and has gotten no response.
No response. Nothing. Nada. Silence. No explanation.
If you have difficulty understanding what I have written multiple times, please let me know and I will try to write it more plainly.
Traveller John is actually a worker? He is really starting to sound scary. A better vetting process is needed for these people. Even overseer Rob Newman is spending time in a mental health facility.
When and how did you attempt to reach me?
I don’t have any record of it, and I’m pretty easy to find…
Kimberlee Norris
Founder- MinistrySafe
kdnorris@lovenorris.com
This was sent by email on April 2, 2024
MinistrySafe on WINGS
WINGS ForTruth 11
Tue, Apr 2, 1:11 PM (13 days ago)
from: WINGS ForTruth 11
to: kdnorris@lovenorris.com
cc: WINGS
date: Apr 2, 2024, 1:11 PM
subject: MinistrySafe on WINGS
mailed-by: gmail.com
Thank you for your responses on the WINGS website with regard to the article on MinistrySafe.
We would be most interested in hearing about any inaccuracies on the story and related articles. We would be happy to post any corrections necessary.
Thank you for your good work!
WINGS Admins
Bruce/BGM/WINGS
This is an intriguing ‘mystery’ your statement:
” I have written long ago to “Kimberlee Norris” to ask about accuracy of the article and she has not responded. She has not responded. This has been a long time now. Henoffour has also responded to her offer and has gotten no response.
No response. Nothing. Nada. Silence. No explanation.”
Kimberlee Norris IMMEDIATELY responded to me when I contacted her with concern I had the regarding accuracy of statements that you have making about MinistrySafe on WINGS.
I am at lost to understand why Kimberlee has ignored you??!!!
Kindly post the dated copy of your correspondence with MinistrySafe/ Kimberlee here
I will then send that to MinistrySafe/Kimberlee and get answers from her. Get an explanation.
When I got in touch with MinistrySafe Kimberlee made contact. Their response was immediate email response. Follow by a requested for zoom call with me. I agreed and Kimberlee Norris clearly explained to the inaccuracy of your statements and the inaccuracy of your sources of information.
Post your dated correspondence with MinistrySafe/Kimberlee and let’s get this sorted. Your mystery that you want ‘explained in English’ clearly explained in English by MinistrySafe/ Kimberlee Norris for any interested readers on WINGS to see and consider.
John
Henoffour:
How strange that you also have no response from MinistrySafe/Kimberlee Norris!! You also kindly post the dated copy of your correspondence with MinistrySafe/ Kimberlee here
I will then also send that to MinistrySafe/Kimberlee and get answers from her. Get an explanation. Why they respond to me but don’t respond to Henoffour or Bruce Murdoch.
John
Traveller/John – Kimberlee won’t be responding, because SHE was never on WINGS to begin with. You have lied about who YOU were to make us THINK she was on here. You need to be blocked, you are a menace. Perhaps even an abuser? Is that why you don’t want people to learn more than what Ministry Safe teaches?
The only thing “strange” about it, is that YOU would choose to pretend to be someone else, and lie on a public platform.
@watchman yes sorry another Watt. Sadly John’s sister but left the meetings years ago and have very little, if anything to do with him.
@Janicewatt01 – thank you. I did actually get ahold of Kimberlee’s assistant yesterday, and after numerous emails, we now have a phone call set up for Monday morning. I am curious as to why she doesn’t just email back and forth with me instead of calling…maybe doesn’t want any record of the messages? Or perhaps she’s planning to record the call? Either way, it will make no difference.
We wish you well!
Thanks henoffour. All the best for your phonecall, I hope you get some answers!
thanks henoffour,all the best for your phone call tomorrow.
I would humbly suggest this whole post be taken down. It is stupid and adds nothing to anybodies credibility. It is conjecture unlimited.
John / Traveller etc
It would appear as though your sisters are trying to give you some advice. Perhaps you should listen.
It seems that MS has removed their rebuttal:
Page not found – MinistrySafe
Wingsfortruth9
Give MinistrySafe/Kimberlee Norris time and opportunity and she will issue a rebuttal of the inaccurate media links that Bruce quotes and and inaccurate statements that Bruce then issued based on them
John
@ traveller – Kimberlee has had ample time and opportunity to “issue a rebuttal”…and she obviously doesn’t think one necessary or she would have done so by now.
I do have a meeting with her scheduled for Monday morning, via phone, which took much effort because she chose not to be the one to make the appointment with me (as if my time isn’t important), she had an assistant do it for her.
John, you are making this whole thing much larger than it ever needed to be. Ministry Safe doesn’t = safe. Our ministry has been taking their courses for years. The one hour course is a stepping stone to learn how to recognize predators, and when a child is showing signs of abuse. But, that’s all most of the workers have ever taken. A few from different staffs have taken the longer courses, but LOOK where we are! With over 1000 predators – a minimum of 40% of those being in our worldwide ministry, and thousands of victims!! This is NOT the end all, be all to this problem. It’s not even slowing these predators down!!
Sorry to say worker traveler but you are at best a dupe and naive, if not a full on deceiver.
At the very best, “Kimberlee” is not answering because you are the client and paying her. That is how business works. You are the paying client. MinistrySafe is a profit making business. They only care about who pays them and really hate the critics like WINGS because it threatens their income stream. That is the best scenario.
The worst scenario is that you have contrived all of this with fake personas. Both henoffour and WINGS have asked MS about inaccuracies with no response. You are looking like a fool and a knave. “Wait” you say. How long? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Typical workerspeak.
You need to apologize to both henoffour and Bruce for your false allegations.
If MS was genuinely aware of this article, they are most likely to run far from this with all the media and law enforcement examining your corruption.
Apologize and hit the road Mr worker.
Watchman
Be assured I promise I will unreservedly and fully apologise to both Bruce and henoffour for ANY and ALL false allegations I have made.
But ‘hold your horses’ still after the weekend and let’s wait until MinistrySafe and Kimberlee Norris get back to me and WINGS.
Now ‘if the shoe is on the other foot?
Will Bruce and henoffour unreservedly and fully apologise if the FACTS prove that they have made inaccurate statements?
Let’s see! 😀
John
Thank you John.
WINGS is highly devoted to accuracy.
@Watchman – thank you.
We’ll let MinistrySafe post rebutting the inaccurate statements that Bruce/BGM has been posting on WINGS about them.I have been in touch with them, they are already aware of what he is up to.Give them opportunity/time to get this done. (They have more to do that address inaccurate statements by the likes of Bruce.) Perhaps WINGS will start a new thread. Where Bruce’s inaccurate statements that he has made are stated again.Then the MinistrySafe rebuttal of them. Then posters can decide for themselves. 😀
Many workers have completed MS courses over the last decade, but it hasn’t stopped the abuse. Or helped workers and friends report grooming behavior.
Or helped the church wrap it’s arms around current and historic victims. Does that suggest something more is needed?
@Wingsfortruth9 – Exactly! I’m actually worried about John. There’s got to be something else going on here. Bruce is a great guy, and has been very careful when things come up to make sure they are as accurate as possible, and the rest of you do the same! It’s just interesting how invested this man is in protecting the image of a company he has no money invested in? Strange.
There is a reason the MinistrySafe founders are lawyers. Liability is a huge motivation for organizations to prevent abuse. The motivations for protecting against abuse may not be 100% altruistic, but at least the motivation does exist.
This is a big piece of why the 2×2 church has and will continue to struggle with this issue. Most now know the 2×2 church was founded by a man and generally behaves in the same way an earthly/worldly organization would. The difference is, since there’s no actual “organization” on paper. there is no way for victims to seek damages, beyond bad publicity. So, there’s little motivation for the Group to act on it in any meaningful way.
If lawsuits begin to be filed, this organization would have the issue addressed incredibly quickly.
To Follow the Money.
I agree to your point that the company Ministry Safe is a legal law firm. And I agree, we should follow the money in a sense, at least to see where it leads.
But I think we need to do some investigation in our own study and I encourage anyone that is interested to try to understand what is not only at the heart of the Ministry Safe company mission statement, but also what might be at the heart of the individuals that are leading that company.
And no, I have never talked to anyone in the Ministry Safe organization. But reading their challengers in news articles and the rebuttals coming from some church organizations, and further the interviews where they are defending what they believe their mission is and unequivocally standing their ground on those principals – I think we may be missing something in bashing Love/Norris & Co.
So I think the public discourse with the Ministry Safe people provides us a wealth of understanding of what might be at their heart. And if we ruminate on it, I believe we will come to understand that their guiding principals are not far off what many of us as a people would embrace. And when I say we as a people, I mean the ‘church’. And therein lies the subtle term of where not only we as a church are stumbling with their message, but also where their detractors in other ‘churches’ are stumbling. I think if you asked any friend or worker, they would all agree that the ‘church’ is the people with ambition to serve God.
So reading the public discourse, some in the various ‘churches’ are up in arms because they can’t come to terms with why their law firm will not sue the ‘church’.
So further down the road less travelled, I believe we need to add a term in our lexicon of meeting speak. And that term is, the ‘enterprise’. If we as a people/church can come to terms with that term being added to our lingo, then I believe we can better understand what the ‘church’ is up against and how to deal with it.
And let me define the new term as I see it. And I do believe Love/Norris & Co would agree with my assessment. The enterprise is defined as those controlling both the cash… and the church. And I may need to add for people to chew on: the enterprise also controls the ministry. Things will always go off the rails in short order when this is allowed or permitted to happen in the ‘church’. The church needs to consider the cost, and the risk of the church’s soul being lost.
I am not suggesting the church needs to embrace Ministry Safe philosophy. But shifting to some other philosophy or program without due contemplation will likely just put us all in a position to argue some more later about the next program we have adopted that tries to keep the children safe from enterprising bandits. Right now, we have placed Ministry Safe in the hands of the enterprise to manage – one more thing on their plate to get their arms around.
In my view, MinistrySafe is one of many possible tools that should be part of a comprehensive approach to this issue. I took the 1-hour course and I think MinistrySafe is a fine tool.
Point is, there is really no motivation for the church to use tools such as MinistrySafe to develop a solution if no legal liability can be established.
We now recognize the workers will act in their own self interest in most cases. There needs to be a mechanism to make preventing abuse in their own self interest.
All this to say, the biggest step that can be taken in this regard is legal incorporation of the 2x2s as a church. This creates an entity that could be sued, and therefore forces the issue to be dealt with appropriately.
I agree follow the money
But for clarity, I think use the Ministry Safe tool to bring awareness to the ministry. Awareness of such nonsense that is possible and often prevalent evidently in their ranks.
Otherwise, that tool and other tools that can be provided are put somehow into the people’s hands, other than the enterprising hands. Or at least a team of individuals that are tasked with monitoring, enforcement, and resolution of nonsense. These people are the skilled one’s that know how, and are tasked to use the tools for benefit of the children’s safety.
And I agree on the incorporation thing whether people think we have one foot in heaven already or not.
Last summer I was talking to my son on the phone and I mentioned people now talking about the money thing. He was a little exasperated with me and raised his voice a little and said “Pops! It is a frigging corporation and you need money in a corporation to get things done”.
I got off the phone and pondered. Yes, I guess it really is a corporation. Maybe we better start to act like one though.
And then, if I have my thoughts right, the corporation could get sued, not the church. Leave the church (the non-ministry members, or at least the non-directors) alone. Semantics I know, but seeing more and more, there needs to be a separation of church and state so-to-speak. When the enterprise and the church get blended together, it can become a distastefully smoothly.
I know, easy to visualize the puzzle, but harder to put the pieces together.
Bruce and henoffour,
Trust, as I requested, you’ll post your (dated) correspondence with MinistrySafe here.
I am going ask MinistrySafe/Kimberlee Norris about it and why she never responded to it as she did when I emailed her.
Thanks
John
While you are at it ask them why, after a decade of workers taking their course, that the worker system is now under a massive FBI investigation. Maybe they should take the “Safe” out of MinistrySafe.
At some point, the media is going to pick up on this utter failure.
@Traveller – Kimberlee doesn’t want emails passed back and forth, she is calling on Monday morning. Sorry buddy, but I think Kimberlee is on to you.
The following is a copy of an email I have sent to KIMBERLEE NORRIS with a cc to WINGS and Bruce Murdoch:
Dear Kimberlee and Megan,
A summary to date.
Bruce Murdoch posted on WINGS:
“”What most people don’t realize about the MinistrySafe courses is that they are not CSA childsafe courses, they are created by a team of lawyers to reduce the legal consequences for ministry groups.It’s not that the courses are bad, it just has to be recognized for what they are as they are focused and have big limitations to train people on CSA.”
I read and questioned the correctness and accuracy of this statement:
“they are created by a team of lawyers to reduce the legal consequences for ministry groups.”
What is our comment/response to this comment? What is your response to Bruce’s comment?
I emailed Bruce . He wrote:MinistrySafe is not CSA training per se, it is intended to protect churches and ministries from legal consequences. Dealing with allegations and caring for victims is not where they have expertise.
There are a number of articles written that share concerns about MinistrySafe. Here’s some examples:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/07/22/ministry-safe-video-they-claimed-to-be-victim-centric-but-would-never-sue-a-church-because-they-dont-tear-down-churches
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2022/august/village-church-matt-chandler-baptist-abuse-settlement.htmlhttps://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/us/southern-baptist-convention-sex-abuse.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dU0.BYaF.uIYUzPQDYI3g&smid=url-share
What is your response to Bruce’s comment?”MinistrySafe is not CSA training per se, it is intended to protect churches and ministries from legal consequences. Dealing with allegations and caring for victims is not where they have expertise.”
I read those articles and researched further. That lead me to question not only what Bruce posted on WINGS but also the accuracy and correctness of what the NYT writer was stating. So I again contacted Bruce and suggested he give MinistrySafe an opportunity of responding to what he was claiming. Correspondence with Bruce followed. He never made ANY mention of contacting you. In absence of that, to seek clarity and answers, I contacted you on 20 March and you promptly responded/ answered.
Then surprisingly two days ago on the WINGS blog Bruce posted:
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I have stated multiple times now on this platform that I have written long ago to “Kimberlee Norris” to ask about accuracy of the article and she has not responded. She has not responded. This has been a long time now. Henoffour has also responded to her offer and has gotten no response.
No response. Nothing. Nada. Silence. No explanation.
If you have difficulty understanding what I have written multiple times, please let me know and I will try to write it more plainly.
AndBGM
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I also wrote to Kimberlee about accuracy quite awhile ago, and got crickets too.
I am having difficulty understanding how it is that you responded to my communication while Bruce claims you did not respond to his? 🤷♂️
You invited me for a Zoom call, I accepted the invitation, You gave me 30 mins of your time. I tested you with ‘hard questions’ 😮. I came to understand that you went to went considerable effort to contact NYT and correct the inaccurate and incorrect statements they made in the article but that you received no response from them.
For the benefit of WINGS readers
Would you please post to the above here?:
I am sending a copy of this email for WINGS to post on their blog.
Please address this statement of Bruce’s
“”What most people don’t realize about the MinistrySafe courses is that they are not CSA childsafe courses, they are created by a team of lawyers to reduce the legal consequences for ministry groups.It’s not that the courses are bad, it just has to be recognized for what they are as they are focused and have big limitations to train people on CSA.”
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What most people don’t realize about the MinistrySafe courses is that they are not CSA childsafe courses, they are created by a team of lawyers to reduce the legal consequences for ministry groups.
It’s not that the courses are bad, it just has to be recognized for what they are as they are focused and have big limitations to train people on CSA.
https://ministrysafe.com/who-we-are/
Reply
and this statement made by another WINGS staff member.
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John’s reference to Kimberlee is presumably to Kimberlee Norris of MinistrySafe, who has submitted comments on the WINGS post about MinistrySafe.
She and her husband are lawyers, and they have an associated legal practice to manage crises and minimize risk for clients. MinistrySafe’s website offers legal consultation, and those services are provided through Ms. Norris’s law firm, Love & Norris.
It seems that John is referring to his correspondence with Kimberlee Norris.
Bruce and WINGS accede that MinistrySafe does good courses but their concern is MinistrySafe is associated with Norris Love a law firm that represents and defends churches.
WINGS claim that doing one short MinistrySafe course is not enough. That is thankfully one point that WINGS, MinistrySafe and I agree on! 😀 But doing the MinistrySafe course is a good start! 😀 Probably Bruce/WINGS accede to that?! 😀
Respectfully
John Watt
John Watt, why do you sound like a crybaby running off to tell the teacher somebody was whispering in class? Oh wait……
You are making things worse for MinistrySafe with your little obsession because the more you talk, the worse they look. If they respond to you at all, they will look like fools because it is obvious you are using them as tools for a vendetta. You are well known in internet circles and it isn’t good. Let’s hope we see some professionalism from MinistrySafe if they do choose to respond. They are almost certainly intelligent enough to encourage and embrace criticism like this. That is how they can get better. They will see through your vendetta scheme.
There are much better, more well rounded educational programs out there which access enormous professional healthcare resources. I hope WINGS comes right out and makes recommendations for better resources.
2x2ism has had a decade of MinistrySafe training and it isn’t working. WINGS is right, it is simply not enough.
@Traveller/John @BGM – Is Ministry Safe Sufficient? For the predator, or for the law abiding citizen? Not for the predator, but, it’s a great company with a lot to offer church leaders who want effective change – which ours do not.
After doing some research of Ministry Safe last night, and praying about this whole post, I have come to this conclusion:
Ministry Safe has numerous great training tools, and help available, but they can not force people into doing what’s taught.
Has this been an effective tool? Not for this bunch, because the lack is on the part of the individual takers, and not on the content creators. When you have the predators taking the minimum course offered to claim they are now “safe”, it’s ridiculous. No class is going to stop a predator. It wouldn’t matter if they took the 2hr 20m class, or the 16 hour class…if you aren’t going to USE the information, there’s no point in taking ANY class. Hence, the continuation of skipping off to continue their abuse! With more than 40% of the ministers being named predators…This WILL NEVER end, until the Overseers are held accountable, and I am now looking forward to the day of their arrests!!!
For all who have been waiting for the results of Kimberlee’s phone call:
First I want to say that she was very polite and professional.
We came to the same conclusion. There’s absolutely no point in working with us, when our ministry isn’t interested in all that they have to offer and how they could be helping us…and instead they are choosing to “handle” things like they always have.
So, my suggestion is, to please remove this post.
Thank you, @henoffour.
I agree with the suggestion in your final sentence: Mr BGM and other WINGS admins, this website is such a helpful resource and voice of hope to so many of us. Please don’t let the unhinged rantings of Traveller/John Watt/whomever degrade the quality of your work or discourage you. If you choose to delete this post and discussion, I for one wouldn’t consider it a failure of documentation.
@henoffour, you are very strong in your opinions but pretty loose with your facts.
you stated “
With more than 40% of the ministers being named predators”
that statement is grossly untrue and needs to be corrected. No wonder you are so stirred up against workers if you really believe such a falsehood. WOW.
Just a suggestion. Why don’t you just politely correct henoffour?
She just got the wording backward: 40% of the alleged and convicted predators are ministers. That is the fact. On the WINGS database, it is almost 50%. It is an older and smaller list, but substantial nonetheless.
@Amen – oops! You are right, that’s not how that should have been worded. Of the NAMED predators, 40+% are being found to be from our ministry.
yes there is a huge difference in those statements. Furthermore there is a huge difference in the true facts as we know them. I don’t think anyone of us is naive enough to believe that we really know but a very small percentage of the CSA cases that actually happen whether in the fellowship or in the world for that matter. To take a very small percentage of actual cases and try to believe the statistics involved is fool hardy. Have you ever heard the phrase “families stick together”? Of those who report what percentage of family members report on one another? Do you see any possibility that the popular numbers in the reported world are greatly out of whack? Let’s get real and quit thinking we are so smart because someone told us the FACTS.
@Amen – I’m sorry you can’t grasp the enormity of this issue, these cases are all being vetted, and no name is issued without their being Credible accusations. If you think this is only a handful of bad apples, you are sadly mistaken. If that were true, the FBI would never have gotten involved. We aren’t talking about Mayberry here…What we do know are facts, and the Catholic church looks like a bunch of saints compared to what we are seeing!
Henoffour. I suppose you are right, there are a lot of us who can’t grasp the enormity of this issue, mainly because we have not been given the facts. Very few of us have directly heard the cry of the victim. Sometimes we hear the cry of a close relative, a mother, a father. Then we hear even louder the cry of the disgruntled, the ones who have an ax to grind. We try our best to separate the cries, but find the evidence is pretty slim, it’s pretty old, it’s been through the rumor mill over and over. You apparently are seeing very different data that is not being shared for some reason. I suspect the same will be true of the FBI investigation. I have seen enough actual data to realize that some terrible crimes have been committed and yes perhaps cover up, but on that one it is much harder to ascertain who really knew what facts and when did they know them. But even at that mistakes have been made. Given all of that. I still feel God is sending forth his servants to bring people to his Son. He still is in control and I will stay with Him. Jesus warned us there would be bad apples, that doesn’t mean we need to take the focus off of Him, but have our focus more on Him.
I would suggest that all just ignore the A Man from here on out. To state at this point that “we have not been given the facts” regarding CSA in the cult and call those that care about the victims “disgruntled” “who have an ax to grind” and that the CSA evidence is “pretty slim, pretty old” and “been through the rumor mill”. This person is a disgrace and does not deserve any more space or responses.
Amen,
I hope you do not mind continuing to talk with me.
I also am in the position to not know the extent of the data set of this travesty of justice to the little children within the fellowship. The travesty of justice in what I understand was caused not only by the ministry, but was tirelessly covered up by the ministry and their proxies. But I am believing those that have in truth and faith and compassion, latched on to a thread and started pulling in this garment of religious enterprise. And as they continue to pull on the threads, the fabric of the enterprise seems to be fraying. Right now, I am believing those troopers trying to make a difference for the forsaken, and I have no faith at the present time in those that are trying to block their efforts at every opportunity. Or the enterprising ones are justifying their position and standing their ground to block and tackle at every chance. In business parlance, block and tackle is the focus and execution of a plan. And subsequently, I also have no faith in those that are sitting back in the ministry and by their silence are inadvertently encouraging the bad apples, or otherwise are seemingly mesmerized by those magicians making the bad apples to ‘disappear’.
So, I am prepared to let those troopers do what I feel they have been called to do. I am not spending my time trying to understand what the data set is. I am just content at this time to accept from them that the data set is very large in relative aspect of a church, and growing. Names persè are not of great importance to me, and I will let the troopers spell out each item of awareness as needed. That I feel is part of what they have been tasked with and have been asked to do.
I suspect, one of these days the dike of religious enterprise will burst the bank. The ministry and their proxies will run out of pointy fingers to plug the holes. And water beginning to trickle through little holes in earthen dams, quickly and progressively become larger and larger holes. Remediation of earthen dams has to be dealt with in great urgency. You may or may not want to read about the little I know about earthen dam remediation. You can Google “Putting dam remediation into overdrive” if you are interested.
Here is another interesting thing about breaches in a dam. The breaches will not be seen. They are all below water level. But the subterranean effects are witnessed; the water bubbling to the surface downstream is the surefire way of knowing there is something not pleasant going on within the dam, starting in the upstream side of the dam. There is huge pressure on the upstream side of a dam. And the dam owners/operators are damned if they damn well don’t do something about the damned condition of the dam.
I also am in agreement there are those that are disgruntled. I would contend however that those are not cries but rather some emotion of another sort. I also agree that there are some that seem to have some ax to grind. I repeat, seem to; I do not know for sure. I am confident that yes, there will be those that truly are grinding their ax. I will not follow them in their journeys if the ax they grind, and the blows they make with it are toward the church (the people). The people being led by the ministry or it’s enterprising proxies ….that were in turn being led by the spirit of religious enterprise.
The reason I say this is, I understand in some measure that people can get freaking upset when they find out they have been cheated. They are justified in their indignation. Unless the cheater takes it on the chin and attempts to mend his ways, then the cheating will continue and through the passage of time his defense will become increasingly mixed with more guile. Sometimes however, cheating on one part, will beget cheating on the other’s part. If a resolution is not attained, or the two parties do not part ways if no resolution can be made, then things will fester. Furthermore, when a separation is made at times, the indignation continues to fester in one or the other or both. Sometimes unfortunately, the air in one’s personal space will need to be cleared by one standing alone and screaming into the wind.
So, in this present experience within the church, some people are freaking upset. They feel they have been cheated. Either bodily, or emotionally, or intellectually, or spiritually. Or all four ways at once. I will not take that from them. Some on the other hand are just seriously upset that there were little ones that were cheated. They are going to bat for the little ones. I am hoping and praying that they at least get the little ones (or little ones now grown to adulthood) to first base.
As far as the enterprising ones in the enterprise, I am hoping they strike out. I kinda get the sense they are presently trying to steal to first base. The pitcher I think is on to their intentions and has given a signal.
@Amen- I understand your frustration, but I also know, that at a minimum over 150 names of predators have been listed on Wings, CCF, AFTT, and many other sites available to all who care enough to watch. How do I know that, because I’ve kept those names and started making my own list. There’s also Town Hall Meetings that Cynthia Liles and her wonderful staff put on, along with Todd Price (former FBI agent) and many other wonderfully educated individuals, and they are able to give the FACTS. So, to whine on here that there’s “no facts being given” is hideous. Are you seriously expecting the Predators (workers) and their cheerleaders (workers and friends) to post a list of their peers? Anyone who is not actively trying to stop this, is considered an enabler, and if they are choosing to make it everyone else’s job or pretending to “not want to know” that makes them an indirect enabler…which means both those categories are guilty of sexually abusing children, because to be an enabler of any type, means we are taking the sin of the predators onto ourselves. Don’t be an enabler! You being confounded about why Cynthia hasn’t released the list – think about this: You have 3 people who are fielding calls from all these victims who are calling in to them still. This is part of the process of each one of those calls: gathering the victim and predator name (if possible – they may have been too young to remember and their parent’s that knew have died), they need to know who this person first told and when, then need to know if any workers were told and when, were the overseers told, if so, when, they spend time listening to their story, because these women CARE. In listening it also helps them to know who/what type of therapist the individual needs, and on and on…then, once the call is over, they have to try to find the right therapist for that individual, and while they are waiting to get into that therapist, these same three ladies have to be available to listen, when the victims are struggling. They’ve now been given hope that justice might be possible, and after waiting for 10-60 years (begging to be heard over and over – to be told to shut up, or told they can no longer come to meeting because they won’t “just let it go”)…it can have some pretty profound emotional roller coaster effects. So, if YOU want to help, why not call AFTT today and see how you can help! https://www.advocatesforthetruth.com/
Bucky, anyone who has been doing their due diligence regarding being informed about the child sexual abuse, sexual abuse and spiritual abuse problems in “the truth” should be sickened, and realize amen is a disgrace. He is also a clone of the cult that is in every meeting.
Amen said, “Very few of us have directly heard the cry of the victim. Sometimes we hear the cry of a close relative, a mother, a father. Then we hear even louder the cry of the disgruntled, the ones who have an ax to grind. We try our best to separate the cries, but find the evidence is pretty slim, it’s pretty old…”
Isn’t the cry of a close relative enough? Isn’t the cry of a mother or father enough? Isn’t old evidence still evidence? Why are people disgruntled? Are they a mother or father of a victim? Shouldn’t they be heard? Why do some have an “axe to grind”? Have they been harmed? People that have an axe to grind most likely have a reason to grind that axe — why shut them down?
The clones of the group want one thing — for the group to survive, no matter what. The sexual predators want the group to survive, as do the enablers of the sexual predators (the overseers, the elders and the people who hear the cries but pass them off as the “disgruntled”). Who stands for the victim?
The overseer doesn’t stand for the victim. The amen clones, nodding their heads up and down in agreement at every meeting don’t stand for the victim. The convention ground owner who keeps their private property open for more abuse to take place, don’t stand for the victim. They all stand for the enterprise, the system, the way that it has been done for the last 120 years.
Who does stand for the victim? A women worker, someone who was actually very committed doing what she did. Someone who was a friend of the family. Someone who was slated to speak at a workers meeting, that was supposed to be addressing the sexual abuse traumas that have taken over the church. When she arrived at the meeting she was told she was not going to be a part of the meeting. Even if she was slated to speak, that was changed. After 30 years of being a worker, she was given $200 and told her to find her way home. She was no longer considered a “worker”. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out…
Who is left to care for the victim? Amen, the other clones he is a representative of that want nothing to change with their meeting and the little life they have, the overseers, and the predators. The people that did care are now called the “disgruntled”, the people with an axe to grind, or those with evidence that is now just considered, ” old evidence “. Even if it happened yesterday, old evidence, that was then, forget about it, things happened to all of us in the way — people are just people, get over it! The way is perfect. Know that.
@henoffour, thank you for your reply. I am not sure how to answer your statements about how bad a person I am for not being fully educated. Yes a published list of anyone convicted of a crime would be welcome. And no I don’t seriously think that list will come from predators. Where in the world did you get that? As I understand there have been pretty serious laws in place since the 1970s on these crimes. I have never advocated here or elsewhere that Antone who has committed these crimes should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I do understand that the vast majority of these crimes will be unreported and not prosecuted. That is not my desire. You feel that by advocating for victims and opening avenues for them to tell their stories, that you can help change that dynamic. I hope you are right and I salute you for your great effort. I am sure it will make a difference. Please be careful about judging others who are not doing the things you are doing as being enablers of the crimes.there are many who for various reasons can’t do what you are doing.
@mark. I appreciate your comments. Yes I agree there are very legitimate reasons for different ones to be disgruntled and I certainly think they should be heard. There are others who are disgruntled and believe they have found a better religion. I don’t believe this site is the proper venue trying to encourage changes of religion. I also agree we all see things from our perspective. Obviously people are strongly impacted by experiencing CSA/SA crimes. We are blessed to live in a fairly isolated area with a very active police force and almost no crime. Yes it affects our behavior, often the doors are unlocked. I know if I moved to a nearby city, I like most would have bars on my windows and doors. Not long ago a worker was visiting nearby and wanted some time with one of the friends sons, who happened to be a policeman. They worked it out that he could ride with him as he patrolled the city. It went well, but the worker was amazed that because of the policeman’s training that almost everyone they came upon was viewed with great suspicion , and with thoughts about the bad things they must be upto.
“…there are a lot of us who can’t grasp the enormity of this issue, mainly because we have not been given the facts. Very few of us have directly heard the cry of the victim”, wrote Amen.
This statement by Amen is simply vile. If there is any wonder why the church is so messed up, in such disarray, look no further than these short, but repugnant comments. “…can’t grasp the enormity of this issue, mainly because we have not been given the facts”.
Wings For Truth alone has been providing factual articles, statements, testimonials from both sexual abused victims, and the sexual predators that are “stepping down from the work”, readers have provided additional facts, and news releases have been presented with additional evidence. And that is just Wings For Truth.
If one cared to pursue facts of “the enormity of this issue”, there are other sources on Facebook, and websites that chronicle the sexual abuse scandal in great depth with much detail and evidence from numerous sources.
“Very few of us have directly heard the cry of the victim”, is a very puzzling statement. Again, Wings For Truth alone has numerous sexual abuse witness statements and their pleadings for help. Other websites have provided additional content and cries from the victims. What does it take to reach some people?
It is evident some people are so focused on themselves and what they want, nothing outside that range of view matters. The world can burn down and as long as the place they are in doesn’t, everything is good.
Then Amen writes, “Let’s get real and quit thinking we are so smart because someone told us the FACTS”. Facts won’t persuade some people until the ” facts” actually affects their own personal lives. That will happen and at that point nobody will be there to hear the cries of those that never stopped to listen to the cry of the victim.
@Amen,
Thank you for your reply to me.
From my point of view, which does not account for much I do realize, I have worked through, and continue to work through the aspects about my journey through 61 years in the church. My parents bundled me off to meeting when I was one week old. I was not aware of anything really at that time, other than being aware of my mother likely. I also had a built-in voice to cry in my need, and the built-in bodily process to poop in my diaper. She met my need and changed my diaper. Lord, rest her weary, caring soul to have done this for me when I as yet could not care for myself. She herself, was the third generation in the church out of Ireland. Her grandfather had a harness shop up the street from Ed Cooney’s drapery shop. I stood on that street in 2012 and watched the Queen and the Prince drive up the street. And I disregarded the admonishment from the platform at Fermanagh convention not to go and see the Queen that had come to Enniskillen that day, 25 years after a bomb had obliterated many things, including any remains of my great grandfather’s harness shop. This event had put the icing on the cake, and had seriously tarnished the relationship between the Crown and Northern Ireland. She had come to attempt reconciliation. She must have accepted the thought; even royalty does not live forever and time was running out for her to attempt to make amends. The royalty and the monarch alone held the keys in that venture. And she must have known it.
Ya, I have not only worked through a lot of my own 61 years in the last 14 months, but also tried to work through some of my forefather’s years. And yes, great grandpa Joseph Cowan and my grandpa Cowan also had stories to tell. My grandfather was born in a house 1 km from the very first convention at Crocknacrieve. I could almost say, I am no stranger to this way. And yes, I have been driven to meditate and ask questions. And I have come to some reconciliation in my own heart and mind. How my forefathers stand before God will in some way be determined by whether they stood in some measure for religious enterprise, or did they stand for His Truth. And if they stood for both, it will be weighed in the balances.
I find an interesting picture before me as life unfolds, that one day maybe in the not-too-distant future, my children may once again in my life have to lead me by the hand or carry me, feed me, and change my diaper. I can’t see my children being overly excited about changing my diaper, so someone is likely going to need to be paid to do this unpleasant job for them. But I am confident, they will care about getting my diaper changed and making sure I am fed. I also am confident that my oldest son will work tirelessly at making me laugh and challenge my thinking. I can hear him telling me “Pull up yer pull-ups Pops, and let’s get to work. And oh Pops, don’t forget to put on yer trousers. Wearing cowboy boots with puppy dogs on yer diaper is going to raise some eyebrows with these ranchers. I know how they think.” My oldest boy always knows best what his Pops should do.
Another little interesting anecdote I think of now-and-then paints me the picture of a baby coming into the world with clenched hands; grasping for all they are worth onto life. Then the picture of the man in a coffin I have witnessed many times, youngish or oldish; his hands are open. He has had to let go of everything. Nothing humanly or temporally remains to grasp on to.
So, in this journey I am on, I have come to understand there is a mix of temporal and spiritual aspects, blended together. But when I try to cross-pollinate things in those two aspects that are not meant to be cross-pollinated, I see now it yields no fruit. I have come to understand for myself, that there were things in religious enterprise that were covered; not for sake of the church, but rather for sake of the enterprise. The enterprise tried for all it was worth, to cross-pollinate things in the spiritual realm with things in the temporal realm – things that were never meant to be cross-pollinated. And guess what; what was thought was supposed to happen, it did not happen quite as planned.
But maybe I am prejudging a little on that matter. Maybe a Frankenstein has escaped the lab. He is ugly to look upon and people will be frightened by his looks and his stature. But he is a kind and empathetic being who wants to help people and bring them together. The dichotomy of his appearance versus what is in his heart will confuse people. They may not understand.
And I am hunkered down these days in the words of prophecy. Not that I feel I understand well, but there are some words there that are getting driven home in my own journey more every day. “To him that hath an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches, let him hear.” There is something unseen, that seems to be preventing some from ‘letting’ them hear.
…and to clear to anyone on this site, if they are thinking I am implying that I do not have an ax to grind. No, you can bet your bottom dollar, I have an ax to grind.
The ax I have to grind is with the enterprising individuals that vanquished children’s lives and spirit within the fellowship, and those that covered for them – and did not, and will not, go back and pick up the pieces.
Furthermore, I have an ax to grind with the enterprise and it proxies that for 55 years of my life withheld part of the truth in the interests of the enterprise. I started to see, I was not getting the ‘rest of the story’, as Paul Harvey used to say. And I am talking about way more than the story of William.
Ya. You could say unequivocally. I have an ax to grind if you want to put it that way.
……. or maybe I should call him William Don’t Tell.
”There are others who are disgruntled and believe they have found a better religion. I don’t believe this site is the proper venue trying to encourage changes of religion”
In the late 1960s there was a car that was exposed as a hazard. When it was hit in the rear, it had a tendency to explode in fire. A book, Not Safe At Any Speed, was written about it. There was no internet then but if there was some might write, “I don’t think this site on this car exploding is not the proper venue to encourage a different car to drive the family in”.
Let the exploding car alone! Keep using it. Maybe on this trip we will get lucky and not get rear ended. But leave that car alone. Just complain about the fire situation, just don’t dare suggest something else.
The logic is simple. Don’t change the status quo. This has worked for me. I got my whole world here — social, life style, culture and even religion. Yeah, there are fires exploding everywhere but I haven’t been burned. Actually, I don’t believe that there are any fires. That is just made up. Just don’t think of taking away my car! It’s the one thing that should be forbidden to be discussed! I really like that car, even if it is a hazard.
@Amen- I said what I said, because you keep whining about not having any facts or information. These three women only have 24 hours in any day to work (but, they still have to sleep!), and are doing as much as they can, as fast as they can. They have a list, but haven’t had time to finish it up and publish the list. The only others that could publish a list is the workers (predators)…and they aren’t going to do it, not even for convention owners who need to keep the predators off their property. My point is – there’s information being posted constantly and YOU are choosing not to find it. Waiting to be spoon fed? I get really frustrated when people choose to not lift a finger and then whine.
“William (Don’t Tell) Irvine”. That’s a great moniker! Just deal the cards out and don’t act suspicious and they will never see you pulling out the card from the bottom of the deck. Yes, the deck is stacked but you won’t ever know because we won’t tell. We will act like the mainstream Christian churches, but we will put our spin on it, we’ll say that we are from the days of Christ and an extension of His apostles. Just don’t act suspicious and they won’t get it that we are just starting up and it is in the 20th century. We won’t tell. The thing that William Irvine has with women? We’ll just kick him out, even though he’s the founder of this thing, that’ll keep him quiet and he won’t talk. Nobody will know about him. No knowledge is power. The sexual abuses, just shuffle the deck, move the jokers around and put them in a new area. Nobody will suspect anything. Just keep the front of the house clean, wear a suit, or a long sleeve dress with your hair tied up and nobody will question what you’re doing in the back of the house. Just don’t tell anybody about the girls getting pregnant and having abortions and nobody will ever know because they won’t see it. The worker that has a drinking problem, just have him light some candles, say he loves candles and nobody will smell the alcohol. The problem worker that is not a good “company man “, just give them the money for a bus ticket home. Nobody will ever be wise to why they got taken out, that they wouldn’t sell the company story. Nobody will ever know. …There really was a William Irvine? He really was a ladies man? Sex abuse has always been an issue? Loyalty to leadership over loyalty to anything else has always been the way it was? The internet has been allowed and TV hasn’t ? And the internet lead to William Irvine and his story finally being told? …We should have never allowed that internet to exist in our group! But everyone liked following the porn. That was the achilles heel! Oh, that internet! William (don’t tell) Irvine, finally did tell. And it’s a very sick story.
I am sure everyone is tired of reading my writing today. Just skip over if so.
I do think though, that maybe what you are saying ‘Company Man’, could be what I am starting to see. I think I may have missed something in Irvine and Cooney. Maybe I am reading you wrong, but this is how I am seeing it.
One more secret the enterprise tried feverishly to keep from the people. Until the age of the internet, when truth started to become known to the world about many things. And still to this very day, there are some in the ministry and otherwise that are still kicking against the prickles of truth about the origins of the 2×2 ministry, and what is going on in their ranks today. And those in the ministry they call Truth, where some would sooner spend their time googly eyed at the darker side of the web, and tell their followers certain historical truths are but rubbish or alternate facts.
But these two interesting individuals were put out of the enterprise for a reason. Despite their foibles and failings, they were both put out by the developing sounding brass. They were not falling in step with the developing strategy of the enterprise, and they had to be swept out of the house. They were going to cause trouble and they had to go. They both were thinkers, and sure as shooting, that would be a problem in the great and growing house of the enterprise. The church was going in a direction those two did not agree with fully, though they may not have fully agreed with each other. But one thing was sure, they were ousted because of their disagreement with the enterprise and it’s rising stars in the wheelhouse.
Irvine ended up wandering alone in the desert until his death, almost literally. He had given up hope of ever reuniting a people. It might have been an experiment, but as Charles Goodnight said one time over a hundred years ago to a cowpoke, I don’t know what the religion is called, but it is a damned good one.
I like Charles Goodnight. He died decades before my time, but I like him. He spent much of his life in the saddle, driving cattle from the Texas panhandle to as far away as Wyoming on the Loving-Goodnight trail. He fought the Commanchie’s as a Texas Ranger and saw his share of spilled blood.
At the age of ninety-one after Charles’ first wife died and he himself became ill, a distant cousin of 26 years old from Butte, Montana came to nourish him back to health. It is a crazy story I know, but they got married. His new wife Corrine was professing, I kid you not. He joined the church and was baptized and as I understand the story goes, with his ailing health after smoking cigars for 70 years or so, moved to Arizona and had the first open home there for meetings. In 2019, I slept in a cowboy cabin for three days in the Paladuro Canyon where Charles run some of the 100,000 head of cattle he managed. Ya, I felt some of his stories. Near the end of his time in the saddle, he had nurtured a friendship with the Commanchie chief Quannah Parker, and had some small influence in bringing the Commanchie people to sit at the table with the US Government.
Cooney? He had what I see as an interesting story also. As I understand, he ended up travelling alone without the trappings of smooth, religious enterprise. He seemed to have no need to create an empire. But he seemed to have a need to attempt to unite a people.
Could these two men, Cooney and Irvine, have ended up true servants, though standing alone? Anyone can tell me they know otherwise how the Lord saw them when their race on earth was done.
Max. Are you listening? I kinda miss you on Wings here. Juss saying. I know you kinda said you were tired of the wrangling with the religious on here and were signing off. But I am confident you knew Charles Goodnight. And I am confident you could associate with his views from the saddle. I am guessing riding flank was your choice. Riding drag is probably easier, but guessing a smelly place to ride. Easy place to get bummed out following the herd.
Maybe Max if you could just come on Wings and say hello. And remind people, that your silence is telling a story for the little ones. Sometimes silence can tell a story that words could never tell. There is some enduring silence in the church I am hearing though that does not seem to bode well for the little ones.
@mark, glad some truths are coming out. Not sure I would call it an ax to grind but yes I don’t doubt that most individuals on this site are upset that any of our children could be hurt by any individual. And I would hope we are all equally upset that in the USA more than 9 million girls and boys are molested.
But then you go onto your second ax and others have cheered you on. You weren’t told about William. It is interesting, that as a baby you went to your first meeting 61 years ago, because at that same time I went to my first meeting at the age of 24, reborn. There apparently was one other detail that was very different. I can’t say the exact time, but within the first month after hearing the gospel I heard all about William Irvine, George Clooney and the big movement in Ireland. The workers did not hide anything they discussed it over and over. They also talked a lot about the early church being taken over by Rome. The millions of true followers of Christ being put to death as they tried to live the truth. They talked about those who fled to the alps and quietly continued to live what they believed. Quietly or be put to death by Rome.
Sorry you missed out on all our discussions. To me they were very informative and helped me to see how easily the truth of God could be subverted, and yet how God would win in the end. Thankful His truth can be kept alive in lives He is able to work within. Jesus words were never truer that he that does it to the least of these my disciples has done it unto me.
@ Amen
I must admit. I do not think any of my children have been harmed with this travesty within the church. I am very thankful for that. But I do have a feeling for my neighbor and his children. Call me weird.
And yes, I agree with you, lumping the fellowship in with all America’s numbers is a very good thing to do at this time.
And I am sorry Amen. I will have a little word with all those people that you think are cheering me on. I don’t go looking for the thunder and it somewhat unsettles me, but will encourage them to give you some of the thunder. It seems to be a sticking point with you. I do like to have people spread the cheer.
And oh yes. I heard about George Clooney too. Really is a great guy far as I can figure from the media. Made a lot of movies I understand. Good actor it seems. Married a lawyer wife and such. Think he may have been on a different gospel mission than the other two I mention though. But yes, likely George Clooney was in some of those stories told about the origins about the rebirth again of Jesus True Way. I agree Amen, George Clooney likely would have been a very good compliment to the cast-of-a-way.
And yes, I did hear about all the Swiss Alp stuff and such. Cool story. And you know who told me? Another George. One George Gittens. Many friends around the world that are more than 50 will have known, or heard of, or heard George speak. I liked George. He was a bit of a cowboy in his own mannerisms after spending time on the mission rounds in the Midwest with the rancher friends. He was tough and made of good stuff. Almost like he had some royalty in his blood.
George grew up not far from me. And he had a buddy in the meeting folk that was his age and they chummed together when boys. And that buddy told me about George’s beginnings. And when I say beginnings, I mean real down and dirty beginnings. Sometimes we have no idea the true origins of someone or something. This story will blow your mind. According to the chum that later in his life went to my meeting, George’s story begins in Buckingham Palace, incidentally with another George. A King George. I have hardly watched many movies in my life and have never owned a TV. But I watched the movie “The Kings Speech” at least twice. A very good movie. But a picture show only tells part of a story. And the back-room story on this one, George Gittins was not sharing too freely, but he shared it with his friend. And his friend shared it with me.
There is this saying, “What goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas”. But there isn’t this other saying that might go something like “What goes on in the Palace stays in the Palace”. Ya, some things that go on in the Palace, does not always stay in the Palace. And I dare say, 2023 was not a good year for Blackeningdam Palace. The royalty would have to admit, they belonged to a Secret Sext.
When just looking at a man or woman, we have no clue where they come from and where they have been. But I have come to understand in some small measure, I will no longer quickly jump to conclusions and underestimate the scope (or lack thereof) of their story. But as they talk, and I sit and listen and ask questions, I do start to get a thread of the story. You may be getting a sense; I am interested in people’s stories. But my years in business have encouraged me to read the fine print that everyone else generally glosses over. And sometimes I spend time reading between the lines. Often what is not written or said in business negotiations is what tunes my antennae.
Sooo many Georges. Just call me Curious George. I tend to like to investigate things and monkey with a few things. And I don’t always go along with the man clothed in yellow with the tall yellow hat.
Yes, I am sorry I missed those discussions you were at as well. I shouda been there. Like I always say, ‘shouda, couda, wooda”.
The 1800s brought many changes to the US that included the expansion of the country to the west, industrialization, modernization with electricity and the automobile. Also was the Great Awakening. A good college education for all history majors will help understand how that transition was made.
New religious movements emerged during the Great Awakening, such as Adventism, Dispensationalism, and the Latter Day Saint movement. Also, Presbyterians, Methodists and Baptists were all started in this time period. And, William Irvine broke off from the group he was with and started the religion that follows his beliefs today.
The group that escaped from Roman persecution was said to be in the mountain region before the empire collapsed. There was almost two thousand years between that time period and William Irvine. William Irvine’s history was with the Faith Mission church, which he broke from. There is no ties between William Irvine and the mountain group.
William Irvine, like the other people during the Great Awakening, began a religion based on the interpretation of the Bible that he had. William Irvine’s followers then implemented the hierarchy structure of leadership from male overseer all the way down to the junior women worker, at the lowest level. Friends were then added as a necessity to support the hierarchy. That was the opposite of what Jesus established.
What William Irvine set up mimicked what Jesus did, the same as the devil does. The beauty of a relationship between a man and a woman and the way a child is conceived, mimicked by the devil and he created pornography. It is similar but no where near the same thing. Twisted. Twisting the real story and then not giving it a name, but calling it “the truth “. A life lived in perfection, called Jesus’ life and way and twisting it to call it “the way “.
The 1800s brought advances in technology and medicine and even brought some very solid, sound thinking for Christianity. William Irvine and his colleagues were working on a whole different agenda and it would have been much better for the world if they had never been.
@ the awakening. An interesting perspective you give here. Toward the end you mention that this period was a time for a great understanding of Christianity. You have pretty well covered what you think is unsound understanding, but you neglect to say what this great understanding is. It would be interesting to hear what you think a good understanding of Christianity is?
Amen wrote, “Toward the end you mention that this period was a time for a great understanding of Christianity. You have pretty well covered what you think is unsound understanding, but you neglect to say what this great understanding is”.
Amen you seem to get a lot wrong and you did it again here. What was said was, “The 1800s brought advances in technology and medicine and even brought some very solid, sound thinking for Christianity”.
Solid and sound thinking is different than “a great understanding of Christianity”. With that comment you made you were obviously attempting to poke fun at something that didn’t come from a “worker”.
This thinking being referenced was some of the Bible commentary that many Christians still use today. This commentary brings the scriptures alive by utilizing the historical, political, and cultural norms of the day in explaining the context (the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed).
For example, why was it shameful for a woman to have short hair, as talked of in a few verses? At that time prostitutes wore their hair short to let people know that they were available for business.
Dwight Moody, and earlier Charles Wesley and others still have significance today. Many of the hymns in the “Hymns Old and New” book were penned by Christians during the middle 1700s to 1800s.
Today this “solid and sound” information continues to be provided. For one, Rose Book of Bible Charts, Maps and Time Lines is fascinating and gives a detailed history of Christianity from the time of Christ though present time.
Henoffour was correct about Amen and his lax efforts in finding the facts on the rampant sex abuses that have taken place in the cult. The same can be said about Christianity and it’s history. It is there to be known if the desire is there.
As Henoffour said about Amen,
” I said what I said, because you keep whining about not having any facts or information…My point is – there’s information being posted constantly and YOU are choosing not to find it. Waiting to be spoon fed? I get really frustrated when people choose to not lift a finger and then whine”.
Henoffour:
1. You stated in a post:
“@John- Wow! Are you a shareholder in Ministry Safe?”
Did you ask Kimberlee about this?
2. You stated in another post:
“Yes, this supposed “Kimberlee” asked if I would be interested in speaking with her about my thoughts, but now I know it was John claiming to be her! How do I know, because she has not responded to me, and he has spoken of the conversation that “Kimberlee” and I had.”
Did you ask Kimberlee about this?
3. You stated in another post:
“@Traveller – Except it wasn’t Kimberly that wrote…it was YOU John.”
Did you ask Kimberlee about this?
4 . You stated in another post:
“Traveller/John – Kimberlee won’t be responding, because SHE was never on WINGS to begin with. You have lied about who YOU were to make us THINK she was on here. You need to be blocked, you are a menace. Perhaps even an abuser?”
Did you ask Kimberlee about this?
5. You stated in another post:
“The only thing “strange” about it, is that YOU would choose to pretend to be someone else, and lie on a public platform.”
Did you ask Kimberlee about this?
I posted:
“Be assured I promise I will unreservedly and fully apologise to both Bruce and henoffour for ANY and ALL false allegations I have made.”
You ?
Yes, John, we spoke on the phone about this whole post. I won’t be posting any more than I already have of our conversation, as it wouldn’t be prudent to do so, for your sake.
Thank you Henoffour,
Appreciate your ‘prudence” and ‘for my sake’ that you won’t be retracting/ apologising for any of your six baseless posts I quote above.
😀👍
Get off your high horse Traveller, honestly take a chill pill. You do far more harm than good.
Ministry Safe is a good program for what it was designed for.
It is amazing that many cult members now say that they knew about William Irvine since the day they understood the English Language. Me and my wife were 60 plus year cult members with first, third, and fourth generation relatives being cult workers. We have lived and/or attended conventions in almost all areas of the USA. Not once did we hear the name William Irvine mentioned. We only heard that “this way” was “from the beginning”. A few years ago, I found William Irvine’s name on the internet. We asked our area cult workers, our big-time cult elder, and our nationally known cult overseer what they knew about William. Not one could (or would) tell us any details about cult founder William. Just like the cult now says – “we had no idea about all the CSA/SA crimes” in the cult for the many decades. Starting to think the cult is full of liars. We read in the Bible that God hates ALL liars.
@Bucky. It is sad when our experience differs from our neighbors that our only conclusion is they must be lying. I would hope that people could freely post their experiences here without being accused of lying. it would be interesting to know how you approached the workers with your questions about Irvine? Was it just interested and wanting to know, or was it a bit accusatory? Our approach sometimes modifies the response we get from others.