94 thoughts on “Australian Reluctance to Act?”

1. thank you for your work, Jillian Hishon.

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2. This is heart breaking. We have had over a year to get things figured out, and set a standard, and learn the scriptural response (toss the predators out immediately), and to learn how to support the victims. Why on earth is there reluctance? Because Graeme isn’t reading or choosing not to follow the scripture not the laws of their land. Just like Ray Hoffman and Barry Barkely! Such sick and disturbed men…how did these twits rise to the top?

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   • @heneffour

     You said: “How do these twits rise to the top?”

     They are recommended by previous overseers and chosen by a group of current ones when the time comes. The do ‘succession planning.’

     When you see the corruption at the top, it appears that having skeletons in your closet is a requirement for the post. Perhaps this is how they could be trusted to maintain the business as usual approach. It also makes you question the predecessors who recommended them.

     No organisation can continue to exist for more than a hundred years with this amount of abuse and cover-ups unless there is a extremely careful selection process of who rise to the top.

     If the ‘right’ people rose the top a lot of this stuff would have been dealt with. Paul clearly states in Corinthians to get rid of the evil. It is clear that the people who would get rid of the evil are never recommended for the position because EVIL rules the top.

     The top tier, is a clear indicator of what the organisation is about. Many organisations have “glass ceilings”. It appears that crimes and immorality is what it takes to break through to the “leadership tier” in the “Work.”

     It pains me to see how many families are torn apart because people continue to allow this evil to have power over them. Christ died to set us free from bondage. It is time to wake up and call a spade a spade.

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     • You are right. Some of the most EVIL, are running this around the world. That’s why Jesus never allowed his disciples to have a hierchy. This whole sceme is man made, and most of what we do is not scriptural…yet, we allowed these criminals to convince us, because we were looking for a form (like in Matthew where Jesus sent the disciples out two together – but, that’s NOT how he sent the Apostles), not realizing that WE didn’t understand the scripture. In some ways, this has been a good wake up call for the honest ones…the rest are choosing to keep scales over their eyes. I’ve also learned with all my studying that narcissists are who rise to the leadership positions in our type of non-denominational faith, because theirs no checks and balances. So, hence the differences in doctrine around the USA, Canada, and the world…their opinions were mixed with it all, but spoken as though it was actual doctrine (well, it might have been their doctrine, but it definitely isn’t Jesus doctrine). I also have learned that Narcissists are the most likely to abuse others, and specifically children, because they aren’t looking for a spiritual connection with God, nor do they care which non-denominational church they join…as long as there’s no checks and balances, so they can more easily usurp their authority over other people to abuse them. Sexual abuse doesn’t have anything to do with their sexual drive, it’s a mental issue that they allow Satan to drive them to do horrible things to others…anyone who can’t fight back, because they are actually cowards.

     • Nicky and Henoffour

       These men rose to the top either organically or through climbing the incorporate ladder.

       And because there was only praise and honor bestowed on the way up, with no pushback or accountability, they gradually, more and more over time believed in their minds and hearts they were untouchable and had become some form of deity possibly.

       We read that God cannot work in a proud heart. One reason for that is that a proud heart cannot be told anything. They already ‘know’. This is the same reason why the proud heart must go up the road and find another job somewhere else in an earthly business. Or otherwise, the proud heart gets rode so hard by all the workmates that the management of the business does not have to intervene. They end up exiting the company under duress from their workmates.

       Now I have worked with and managed oversized ego guys before. Not tooting my horn, but if anyone wants to think I am, that is fine. I am over it.

       It is an interesting challenge to get them on the team. The ones with oversized ego with true inner strength and truly know what they know, will continue to sit at the table of difficult discussion until a resolution for the sake of the company is agreed. They will no doubt have to make some concessions.

       But there is another type of pride and ‘seemingly’ oversized ego that is harder to detect, and a few times in my career have witnessed an unfortunate outcome of my hammering. I came to realize too late, the outward oversized ego, was actually wearing little boy pants in his heart and soul.

       From another perspective, we could look to the Peter Principal in business. That principal states: “A person is pushed up the ladder of success to their level of incompetence.” How far past this rung on the ladder of success are some of these men standing? They need to ask the people, because it will be impossible for them to be aware of the truth of that matter.

       This is just commentary Nicky re your introductory question from Henoffour. And Henoffour: I know you will keep pressing forward for sake of the little ones. I agree, it is long past due for one of the leaders to come to the table. It does make one wonder what is truly going on.

       We will see who comes to the table of difficult discussion to iron out the details. I agree once again though, it is long past due. We will also come to know which ones will just fall apart. An interesting aspect of this however is that a portion of the church will insist that the leader’s inaction and resistance in walking back up the road to help the wounded is somehow the inner workings of the Holy Spirit. That effort by those will help keep the little boy pants on the big boy’s ego.

     • @Mark, I hope you don’t mind my joining in on your chatting here. You bring out some interesting observation of the characteristics of those who rise up in the corporate world. I imagine the same applies to the political world also, and yes we often see it in the religious world also. Many are bringing out behaviors amongst us that would say the same human frailties apply. I don’t doubt that there are cases where this is sadly true. Then I began to go over in depth what my experience has been, and as many already know it doesn’t add up.

       I went back to the first worker I aver heard some 65 years ago. Yes he rose up in the ensuring years to take a leadership role in our state. To me his life just became more of a life of service.  He went on to another state and poured out his life until the end. The younger companion that we heard through also rose to a leadership role over the years. The word most remembered him by was steady. He was the advocate for the downtrodden and especially the women. I could go on to many more. I read with alarm for those who believe that because there are those among us who have proved to not be the good ground into which the seed of God fell, or who were tares planted among us by the enemy, that we all must therefore be labeled as evil and corrupt. That is just like what our true enemy desires.

     • A very welcome comment, Amen. Having spent 40 yrs in a corporate enviroment, I’ve discovered that humans are human, all are capable of faults, and many are good people. Some aren’t, but all are individuals.
       Stereotyping by race, religious beliefs, sexuality or gender is definitely common characteristic exhibited in some form by many. I find the practice offensive and try to avoid it myself.

     • @ Amen

       The truth is we do not really know anyone. We may like to think of many that we knew to be faithful and I am sure that some are but the fact is you cannot put your head on a block for anyone because you may very well lose it.

       Even if some did not partake in corruption many of them proved that their loyalty and fear was to and of the system and not to and of God. Some way along the line some have forgotten who they should really be serving.

       There is a worker in the UK that died with his dirty secrets.However, some are coing out now. Allthose years he lived a lie and had it protected by people within the system.

       Many workers apparently knew about him and warned sister workers to stay away from him. I never knew that you just warning people about a rapist in the midst but doing nothing to get rid of the rapist and CSA perpetrator was enough. What planet do these people live on?

       Every young unsuspecting sister worker or child that was SA by him is as a direct result of those who kept silent. SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN! (Many people suffer in and because of silence.) They fed him victims with their silence. Rumours have always circulated in the meetings about things that werent right within it. However, people just put their heads down and kept on going.

       King Hezekiah recognised that Judah and Israel had gone away from God and he knew what needed to be done. If people continue to bury their heads in the sand, nothing will ever be put right in that place. Many workers were put out of the work for petty nonsense but the pedophiles and SA were kept and even got promoted at times.

       When people do not want to be tarnished with a dirty brush they separate themselves from what is not good or right.

       The meeting is the Titanic and it is going down because God has heard the cries and seen the tears of all the victims. He has seen the lies and cover-ups and has brought judgement upon it as he did with Sodom and Gormorrah. I have left and I am not looking back from whence I came.
       How could anyone who knows God not expect it NOT to come to this? Every child that cried himself or herself to sleep, every sister worker dealing with the trauma of rape or psychological abuse. After they have given up everything, believing that was their calling.

       Only to realise that they were deceived and feel forced to keep silent because people put their heads on the block for workers, which leaves them with hardly anyone to confide in.

       We serve a true God, not a false god (maybe some do) and he is faithful. The meeting has been exposed by God for its EVIL deeds. This is the FACT that people need to FACE.

     • Amen,
       I am not saying humility and meekness is not a possibility in those that have climbed the ladder of success. But if there have been no knocks or ego balancing exercises along the way, I am not sure this is possible.
       Just as an anecdote, I remember Gordon Hazelwood speaking at special meetings one year. He was speaking about something regarding God and he turned to the brother workers and said into the mic, “Some of these young fellas might think they are God”…and then one of Gordon’s customary chuckles.
       I do not think it is the young fellers thinking they are God. Just my opinion.
       And I am good with the dialogue, as hard as it is to work through at times. This is a hard conversation, one that many seem unwilling or unable to have.

     • @ Nicky, yes you bring out some real truths that we all must face in this life . We really can’t see the heart of another And yes when someone we thought had a good heart winds up with an evil heart it shakes us to our roots.i have always valued when those situations arise, that I never read from the words of Jesus that it would never happen in His kingdom or among those He was working with.

       I could not agree more with what you say about the evils of silence. We can write it off as what people did out of custom in the past, but it was and is still evil. Laws have changed, people have changed and hopefully we can all go on to a better future for all.

       Where ever we are, my hope is we will see that God is still trying to draw His children into himself. That we would each hear the words of God, this is my beloved Son, hear Him. I am personally thankful that the gospel is going forth and there is evidence that He is revealing His Son to others. It is wonderful to read in times past how God worked with people in different ages. But Jesus made it very clear that seeing and believing what God has done in the past is not his plan for us, it’s what He is doing right now in our midst. Jesus question to those who questioned His authority was, the baptism of John, was it from heaven or was it of man. They would not answer Him and He did not answer them. John came and proclaim Jesus, Jesus stood among them and He would not answer them. Pretty searching. What do we see of his work today.

     • @Amen
       Read below:

       How much so would he have dealt with CSA, SA, false preachers and the like? The WORD IF GOD MAKES IT VERY CLEAR! This was about what was happening among the Church Not the outer WORLD.

       Ist Corinthians Chapter 5
       1.It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

       2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

       4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

       6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.

       For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.Expel the Immoral Brother

       9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

       11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

       12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

     • @Amen – I know that not everyone is corrupt or evil. Even the ones we thought were ‘good’ that became overseers, became corrupt. You think your worker friends were good people…we know now that all the overseers have known for decades of this horrible ugliness going on within our faith, and they were told from on high to bury it, or throw out those families that brought up allegations…which they did. Choosing to further harm a family that had been victimized by someone claiming to be a “servant of God”…well, they were servant to A god, but not to the God of Heaven, or they would have followed the scripture and put the predator out, and poured oil on the wounded and helped them to get the help they needed to heal. I literally want to vomit, just thinking of how devastating it would have been for these broken hearted families, crying out, only to get told they were excommunicated and told hell awaited them. While the predator was moved to another area/state/country to have access to fresh victims and live as though “nothing had happened”. That’s the evil that has reigned down from the top of this hierchy.

   • @Mark S – Yes, and I’ve watched in corporate america, way too often, the rotten fruit floats to the top, because no one wants to work with them, and they don’t know how to get rid of the stink without getting sued.

     In this faith, the narcissists rise to the top, because they are charismatic and fun and are great at grooming (everyone loves them)…and meanwhile, they are raping, molesting, and terrorizing our children behind our backs (and the men’s wives while they are away working), and then these same dispicable lazy humans have their hands out for that man’s hard earned money! This faith isn’t about serving God, at least not to the ministry, it’s all about how much money they can collect in a week!

     When Ray Hoffman & Barry Barkely tell their minions in a workers meeting that they there’s no need to proselytize any more, because they have enough people supporting them now…it’s ALL about the money.

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     • @henoffour do you really expect anyone to believe you about what you said Ra and Barry said. You have become delusional and I am now really worried about who is feeding you this stuff.

     • I’m not here to spread gossip, so you can choose to put your head in the sand, or take note. It’s up to you. One of the workers in that meeting is who told me about it.

     • as long as you keep spouting gossips I will prefer to keep my head out of the filth. Thank you. It appears you don’t know how gossip works.

     • I can count on one hand the number of “outsiders” who “professed” (that had no previous connection to a cult member) during my 60 plus cult years. Thus, it is a worthless waste of time, effort, and money for these “workers” to continue to go out and pretend that are “spreading the gospel” as the original disciples did. No one is going to listen to them, especially with the CSA, SA, and FBI all over the internet.

     • Amen – ” I will prefer to keep my head out of the filth”. This is cult code for, “I will prefer to keep my head in the clouds”. ….nah, nah, nah, I have my hands over my ears, I can’t hear you…
       it’s either face reality, or not, it’s there to see if you want to. Otherwise, walk around in a dark room with the lights off is always an option.

     • Trying to think of one good thing that workers do – they do not teach about the Bible, they do not provide comfort when it is needed, they do not know how to provide direction in times of trouble, they know nothing about Christianity, they are not productive citizens, etc. They have way to much time to sit around without any responsibilities – thus leading to bad behavior such as porn and alcohol addictions, CSA, SA, and other bad stuff. Time for them to fold up this tent for good and join the real world and get out of their 1897 costumes and hair styles.

     • Bucky, I am not arguing good or bad here but this is the workers’ function that is considered good:

       The most powerful benefit that the Friends get from the system is the fellowship meeting/convention/special meeting experience. The home fellowship system in particular but all three are considered valuable. The workers are the managers and gatekeepers of all three.

       Now you know what they do and why the Friends ascribe value to them.

     • Thanks for you input, but it appears that “the managers” are inept and “the gate keepers” are asleep. Just look at what has happened in the cult since the Bruer news broke one year ago and the cult leadership’s response.

       My wife had to go to a Wednesday night and Sunday morning meeting (now called “fellowship” meeting) for years with one ex-worker ped and one convicted ped. This was not “a powerful benefit” to her.

       BTW – can anyone explain why the word Fellowship is now used instead of “the way” or “the truth”. Is this some sort of an attempt at a new identity?

     • Bucky wrote, “Trying to think of one good thing that workers do”.

       The workers are very good at using both formal and informal systems of influence and control to keep members obedient with little tolerance for internal disagreement or external scrutiny.

       This obedience factor is another key element. It plays off a human’s natural inclination to follow orders and do what others around them are doing. With worker, critical thinking is frowned upon, while absolute faith in them is rewarded. Guilt, shame and fear are also constantly wielded to slowly strip away an individual’s identity. Have you ever missed a meeting and not called why you wouldn’t be there? Or, get a call why you weren’t there? Obedience is vital.

       Free thinking, free will and free speech are limited in an environment where full obedience to the workers is required. The workers, in turn, have narcissistic and authoritarian streaks and are motivated by power, and sometimes money and sex.

       While the workers, ” do not teach about the Bible, they do not provide comfort when it is needed, they do not know how to provide direction in times of trouble, they know nothing about Christianity, they are not productive citizens”, they do one thing well. The workers keep the cows in their pen, or the members in the cult.

       The one thing the workers are good at, “is the fellowship meeting/convention/special meeting experience. The home fellowship system in particular but all three are considered valuable. The workers are the managers and gatekeepers of all three”. The key point is the ” meeting experience “. Keeping the cows in their pen.

     • @Bucky, I assume your count on one hand is only taking in an area near you? Either that or you are not keeping track of what has happened throughout the world in the last 60 years.its posts like this that make me question what some people are trying to say?

     • Bucky, the fact that you have had your eyes wide shut for 60 years is on you. And now the sunlight has blinded you. The good news is that you will adjust in time.

     • Will admit that I was never the smartest person in the room, but even with that being said, I have no idea what the A man or the Watcher is trying to say. I will say that I have lived in more places than most cult members have even visited and hardly ever ran into any first generation cult members (most all were second, third, or forth generation).

       BTW – Always wondered why there is hardly any fifth generation cult members and zero sixth generation cult members. Does anyone have any explanations? I was talking to a fifth generation cowboy in a historic saloon the other night and his ancestors came to this area in 1877. I don’t remember a cult worker or member having relation going back to that date. Can anybody tell me why?

     • Amen and Watchmen, I have been in many meetings with the judgemental, pious, self righteous, arrogance that you exhibit. I’d rather walk barefoot across broken glass to sit knee to knee and be forced to listen to such incredible incompetence anymore. Thank you for sharing your opinions and displaying your unremarkable behavior, that is a prerequisite for being a cult member.

     • @watchman, I think you bring out a very important point that we never want to forget and that is we all had our eyes tightly shut 60 years ago to CSA/SA, whether it be in our fellowship or where ever. Yes today we think of then as despicable ,evil acts, but there are many societies around the world where they still are not considered a crime. Many studies in the past few years have pointed to the addiction some individuals have toward these crimes. 60 years ago most of us believed it was a terrible mistake that surely would never be repeated. We felt yes it went on in the world and we should stay as far away as possible. I don’t write this as an excuse for how cases were dealt with in the past, but a reminder of where we all were at.

       we have heard the theory that those with a predator nature seek us out because we were naive etc. I question that theory. If I were a predator, I can think of thousands of more productive areas in the world where I could much more easily satisfy my passions. And I wouldn’t need to play the game of grooming and faking. 

3. “…we have 3 Police Intelligence reports against him. All victim-survivors in this instance were under 18 years of age at the time of the abuse…”
   Provided with multiple official police reports, and Graeme Dalton, State Overseer for New South Wales, Australia refusal to act on a known sexual predator, and the predator is allowed to remain in the group?!
   This is beyond unacceptable. This is insane! This is a global problem with this group. This is the accepted culture, tolerance for sexual predators, and have dispose of the abused. This is evil. This is the opposite of the way Jesus taught.
   Graeme Dalton, “whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea”.

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   • henoffour: April 12, 7:09pm

     Yes, this has been a very hard journey. The very UGLINESS of this reality has exposed “our lack” of gate keeping to protect not only ourselves but our little ones. Oh, if we could do it over??? BUT only THIS BALL-BAT has awakened and ‘educated us’ to the twisted minds of the perpetrators; as you so aptly explained. Your explanation of ‘abusers’ is correct. Yet, they have such great ‘grooming’ expertise’. How can the human mind even go there??? AND your final nail in their twisted life IS: they are actually ‘cowards’!

     B UT; 2 Corinthians 11: explains their power and why it is so successful. Satan was working in Paul’s church in Corinth. 2 Cor. 11:3 – :11 explains HOW “satan” had beguiled them. While Paul was :7 ‘abasing himself’ that they might be exalted AND preached to you the Gospel of Christ, freely: –:10 As the truth of “”Christ” is in me””.  Paul did NOT preach “Jesus” as he walked the dusty roads of Israel: “IN HIS Fleshly ministry to that Nation of Israel to bring Nation of Israel back to God — 2 Corinthians 5:16 EXPLAINS This. God’s WORD gives “clues”. IF this is true: THAT we, in the Gospel Paul preached “Do Not Know Christ after the flesh” then ‘that’ trying to follow Jesus in His ‘earthly ministry’ —cannot NOW be true!!! 

     Another “clue” God’s WORD gives us is: Matthew 10:5 -:7 etc. Jesus in His fleshly ministry by Jesus very own WORDS -in red- explains very plainly::: The Good-news to Israel was: “Your Kingdom of Heaven on Earth” promised to Abraham IS AT HAND!!! AND again in Matthew15:24 Jesus (in red words) explains this again in very ‘certain terms’. As our understanding of God’s complete WORD ‘unfolds’: it is a beautiful process. 1 Cor. 2:5 – :10 – :11. explains ‘But God hath ‘revealed’ unto us by His “Spirit”…….. yea, even the “deep things of God”!

     Do not get us wrong: We are NOT saying Jesus ‘earthly ministry was of NO value: it is of great value for that Nation of Israel. It is also for our ‘learning’ as Paul explains to his church=assembly in Rome: Romans:15:4.    In verses :8 – :12 Paul explains to whom and ‘what Jesus preached’ and ‘what’ was God’s purpose :9 – :12. Israel refused God, then Jesus their King was born: your King is in your midst! Jesus, they demanded crucifixion. AND then with very own hands, THAT Supreme Court of Israel(all that sat on the counsel) “stoned the very Holy Spirit “they saw in Stephen’s face”‘! Result: Matthew 12:31 – :32; God turned FROM them for a season = Romans 11:9-:11 =But Now…. Romans 11:25 – :27 = But then in the future…..

     The reality of “But Now” gives the understanding of what God gave to Paul and why! Ephesians 3:1-:9 and the result is Romans 3:21 – :27 with our rejoicing in Ephesians 2:4-:9.. Henouffer, please feed your heart with God’s Gospel of the Grace of God; enables and gives you the gentle and caring heart; “while with your great love and care of “our abused and hurting” you give a will and purpose while their heart heals from the very destructive power of Satan 2 Cor. 11: 13 – :15! ALL done in the Name of our God, and Saviour — Jesus Christ. The enormity of it all is beyond our comprehension. Bless your heart, mind and soul as you are one who is able to step into the deep distress of souls ‘caste aside’.

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   • @henoffour. I noticed you said we~we know now that all the overseers have known for decades of this horrible ugliness going on within our faith, and they were told from on high to bury it, or throw out those families that brought up allegations…which they did. Choosing to further harm a family that had been victimized by someone claiming to be a “servant of God”

     I am wondering who we are, and the source of information, and quite frankly how credible your source is. I have noticed the change in your posts over the last few months, and it is obvious that your source of information about past events and actions has drastically changed. Please be careful.

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     • ….and yes, if we all would just notice, the message is getting clearer, changing week by week; the message of the rebuttal of the legal defense of the spirit of religious enterprise.
       And yes, there are those that are burdened….what does this all mean?
       Yes, there are those that are getting clearer; we had bowed down to an unknown god.

4. They’re not trying to establish plausibility…they’re denying plausibility. Wow.

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5. Jesus said” beware of false teachers, etc you shall know them by their fruits or actions”

   sadly these oversee’s actions show their compete lack of Christian love

   when this crisis hit I asked myself “who are we” to have this within the truth ????? but now after 12 mths of inaction it’s very clear WHAT THEY ARE😥😥😥

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   • I feel the heartache you do Graham. Not ONE overseer that hasn’t swept the truth of this csa/sa stuff under the run, not one that hasn’t lied, not one that’s following the scripture…and when you try to help them have a better understanding (which is also scriptural for the people to do) and they just let your efforts run off like water off a duck…that’s hard to take in. Like pouring pearls before the swine. We have had over a year now, and all the overseers are choosing ignorance. They are pretending to be doing things (bandaids) without actually doing what SHOULD have been done on DAY ONE.

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6. Overseer Dalton is absolutely worthless, just like most all, if not all, of the overseers in the States. How in the world can anyone place any trust in these people anymore, let alone one’s salvation?

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7. Police intelligence reports are often submitted to the police anonymously. Looks like reasonable information has been requested to establish plausibility and its been refused by Jillian and Ross.

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   • That’s actually beside the point Katie. The information was vetted and police intelligence reports were done by the victims to give the reports ‘weight’. Most victims of child sexual abuse don’t want to go thru the court system, so it’s about all they can do to make an ARO or SARO.

     ’Reasonable’ information is not asking where the abuse took place. Thats ‘identifying’ information. So are the other questions that were asked.

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     • Jillion – thank you for all you are doing! These workers need to be arrested! Including Graeme.

     • https://portal.police.nsw.gov.au/adultsexualassault/s/sexualassaultreportingoption?language=en_US

       Is the context NSW?

       if so Graeme’s questions are any a reasonable leader of an organisation would be required to ask to establish enough information to act.

       You allude to him speaking to the police, this would also be a reasonable step to try and gain the same information.

       Of all the cases submitted to Graeme has he acted in?

       How many has he acted on you don’t know about?

       In the eyes of any reasonable person you are a 3rd party provider raising a complaint on the part of a 3rd party and the receiver of that information should validate it.

       The way advocates for truth has acted in the US from what they have released has been impressive. Seeking to provide the people in charge as much information as they can to enable them to act and responding to requests in a professional way.

       Publishing correspondence that has been started out as being confidential and between two parties is not going to help building the relationship you say you are striving for.

       @wings do you provide the other party, ie Graeme Dalton an opportunity to comment before posting or is he required to stumble across this to enable any comment to be made?

     • In your first email to Graeme, the workers need to ask someone not to attend meetings immediately (within 4 days) with the only available information being from you (a name, and 3 anonymous police intelligence reports, possibly submitted by someone other than a survivor)? How are you ensuring the workers know they can trust your information? What transparency do you have with them around your policies and procedures for relevant skills required to speak to survivors? To performing the vetting? Do you have investigative experience? Understanding of how trauma affects memories? How do you keep data secure? How do you manage conflict of interests where you or someone on the team knows the survivor or alleged perpetrator? How are you managing potential bias given you run a Facebook group (Cynthia’s is heavily moderated and limited in scope)? 
       I’m sure I’ve read on Wings that Graeme has stood people down from meetings before. If he’s doing the right thing, providing the information he’s requested is reasonable.

     • @Bridging the Gap – What AFTT can do here in the USA may not be allowed in Australia or NSW or ?
       Jillian is doing what she knows she’s legally allowed to do. Graeme is probably trying to get her to do something to get HER into trouble, when HIS focus should be on getting the predators OUT! He’s made this big deal about how he’s going to deal with them, and now he’s just back to business as usual, because this is probably a friend of his.

   • Hi Katie,

     I’m not sure which email you’re referring to? There is no time request for a reply stated in the first email. After 5 days, and no acknowledgement of the original email, I asked for a reply by approximately 48 hours time. 

     The information on my relevant skills is listed on the website and accessible by anyone. There is a secure database that only I have access to. 

     Re Conflict of interest.  A police officer is not going to run in the other direction if they come across an accident and it’s a family member who needs help are they? I’m not going to hang up the phone if someone who I know calls, or reports an alleged perpetrator – I’m sure you understand there are many many families related within the fellowship. Finding someone who had no connections would be pretty rare given the structure of the church. 

     And potential bias because I’m admin on a Facebook group? If being biased means I fight with all I’ve got for victims of child sexual abuse, then tag me biased. I wish there were more of us!

     I am grateful to be able to answer your questions. It helps to know what might be blocks in getting responses. 

     Reply

     • I think the workers are correct to attempt to validate the information provided given the scarcity of detail about the expertise applied and process for collecting the information. It speaks well of Graeme and his concern for child safety that he has continued to engage with you to confirm the facts. The sensitivity of the data deserves robust processes for collection, storage and communication, not social media posts.

     • @Katie – Seriously? What business do YOU have questioning a victim’s sincerety? What would a victim have to gain by coming forward? There’s no big pay-out. They aren’t going on the 5:00 news or having a Netflix movie done…they want JUSTICE for what this man did to them. My heart just breaks over people like you, who would rather run red tape around everything, take twenty-three years to respond, and then cowardly admit that “oh, I guess it did happen, but now the time to report has run out”…and the monster has 35 more victims!

     • @henoffour no extra time but extra care, which might make all the difference.

8. Jillian and Ross

   Can you also please publish the responses that Graeme is giving to you asking for more information??

   We appreciate the work you do in helping victims/survivors but feel in this instance we need to be transparent in the communication that is being sent back to you. 

   Whilst you may not agree, maybe take your letter that you send out to the police and you will see there is there not enough information provided for a reasonable person to act on. 

   Reply

   • Hi Mel,

     Are you referring to the questions we answered from Graeme’s first email back to us that we replied to?

     We vet the information and make sure it is credible before we would ever ask for the workers to act on their own written policy. The workers are aware of this from our prior (general) communications from The Brave Truth. I understand that we are asking them to trust us, however, not one single worker has ever picked up the phone to call and speak to us, or anyone in the Advisory Group either. If the church is truly trying to fix this crisis, why aren’t they doing everything they can, including using a service like The Brave Truth that is free to them!

     Mel, if victim-survivors had trust in the workers to be confidential & act on their behalf, they would go straight to the workers. In this case, a victim DID go to workers and minimal action was taken (not believe the alleged perpetrator lost his eldership/meeting in his home, but was still allowed to participate).

     This is not a case the workers have no prior knowledge of!!

     Reply

     • Jillian, a sincere thank you for the work you are doing!

       The leadership, at this time, does not want to see what is going on. Actually, this has been the case for many years. Over 15 years ago my wife and I had actually uncovered photos of misdeeds taking place on the convention grounds. We were showing them to the overseer in the meeting hall at convention when he told us to put them away because other people might see them! 

       Hide it, don’t see it and it never really happened. Even though it did.

       Deny reality. The psychology of denialism is a person’s choice to deny reality as a way to avoid believing in a psychologically uncomfortable truth. Denialism is the rejection of basic facts and concepts that are undisputed, well-supported parts of the scientific consensus on a subject. At this point, it’s not just the leadership that is in denialism; it is the accepted culture of the entire group.

       The standard for what is “normal” has been set and that will not change. That is, unless an outside faction forces change, such as lawsuits resulting from the FBI investigation. Otherwise, the people who are still left within the group have accepted the culture of denialism, and unfortunately the vulnerable children have no choice but to also accept that cultural. And stay silent when they are abused. Because it never happened.

     • @thank you. Now you have my curiosity up. I can understand the overseer not wanting others to see something like your photo evidence at convention time and before they could be studied and acted upon, but are you saying that after showing the photos that absolutely nothing was done about them??

     • @Amen – That and similar has been the norm for decades. Irrefutable proof, and it’s shushed! So that their buddies will continue to have access to more victims without any checks and balances!

     • Amen, not only was nothing done about the photos of misdeeds that were taken on the convention grounds (some that were taken within 50 yards of the meeting hall where the overseer was showed the photos), the overseer would not look at more than a fraction of the photos that were taken before shutting us down. We were treated like the “bad guys” just because of what we had uncovered. Talk about shooting the messenger…
       Again, if you hide it, then you don’t see it and it never really happened. That is totally what was conveyed from the overseer. The overseer had his ever present sidekick there as well. Both would still recall that moment, no doubt. “Oh, don’t show that…!” It was over about as fast as it began. The photos didn’t seem to be the big surprise. It was that we had the photos, and at convention, that was the surprise.
       You noted, “I can understand the overseer not wanting others to see something like your photo evidence at convention time”. I disagree with you on that point. What better time is there to discuss such an issue, or any major issues, than when everyone is actually together.
       What is there to hide? If it is the ” truth ” that is being pursued, then let’s have at it at convention. Let it be a learning moment. A moment to shine the spotlight on right, from wrong, respect and disrespect, living a Godly life or a carnal life. Why run from advercity? Why be a bunch of lemmings running scared? With the power of God giants should be faced head on. That was not done, though. Instead, …”don’t show that! “

     • @Don’t Show That – are you talking about Graeme Dalton, another current overseer in Australia, or someone else?

     • Katie, you wrote, “@Don’t Show That – are you talking about Graeme Dalton, another current overseer in Australia, or someone else?”

       It was not in Australia, nor was Graeme Dalton one of the people involved. Pick your place and pick your “overseer” and it appears you’re going to get similar reactions.

       It used to seem maybe, there is the odd one, the overseer that somehow snuck through the ranks that shouldn’t have. The reality is, is there an “odd” overseer out there that slipped through, that is actually a Godly, decent, solid character of a man?

     • Thanks for your reply Jillian and I understand your concerns, however, the tone and demands you use in your letters and the way if you don’t like a response from a worker that you publish their response on social media and degrade the person – could you really blame them for not wanting to engage with you and trust you???  That is not how a professional organisation conducts itself. 

       I truely believe you are wanting to do the right thing to help but there is a way to build people’s trust and confidence. Maybe going forward if you could commit to not publishing every response and not using defamatory and degrading language about volunteer people that a working relationship could commence. I look forward to your response. 

     • @Amen – why not at convention? The workers are raping children and women and their peers at convention. So, why not discuss criminal behavior? Let’s all pull our heads out of the sand and get this ugly evil stuff stopped!! NOW.

     • ALL of them?

     • @JuniorJones – First of all, I didn’t say “all of them”…but, If you only knew. One of the sister workers told me she “hated convention time”. When I asked her about it, she said, “it’s just one big sausage fest”…sister workers being raped around the grounds as they try to clean buildings or set things up, and they are sent by themselves or only two working together…and one has to run to the restroom or go get something to fix a broken bedrail or ? Predators are always watching for their moment to pounce!

       But, I get the feeling you don’t really care, and are only on here to make ignorant statements to cause trouble.

     • I responded to your foolishness, but I don’t see it posted here. ??

     • Like you “thought” someone was posing as Ministry Safe? Who’s “stirring up trouble”?

   • Hi Mel

     We promised right from the start of The Brave Truth that we would be transparent with people. Granted it’s not something the overseers are used to and most likely confronting for them, but in all honesty Mel, if the replies are as they should be and the overseers are acting as they should, there would be no fear of replies being published?

     Not all letters have been published, there are varied reasons for that, but some are. If you are following The Brave Truth you will also note when there have been positive responses too, or some action taken. It’s not fair or accurate to say it’s defamatory and degrading language. 

     Your replies obviously indicate you’re part of the AG – I’d be more than happy to chat further with you privately

     Reply

     • Thanks Jillian

       Your comment ‘It’s not something the overseers are used to’ – don’t you find that a critcal comment?? Do you know them all well to really pass judgment? Of course we know things have not been handled as well as they could have been in the past, but this is a new generation of overseers in my opinion who are committed to keeping our fellowship going forward.

       And your comments ‘replies as they should be’…. That is in your opinion Jillian – do you get their consent to post their responses?? It astounds me that you can’t see you get people off side with your actions and words and then expect people to trust you.

       As I said please show your Brave Truth letter that you send to them to the Police or any organisation and see if they could act on it. Do you know what professionals say when I show them your standard letter with an alleged perpetrators name and scant information on it – ‘Is this a scam?’ Whilst I understand you are trying to defend victims and survivors and stop perpetrators being around children, you clearly need to go about it in a different way to get traction.

       Clearly the Police are not going to act on a Police Intelligence Report so the report the victims are making is just for intelligence purposes which would NOT be investigated. Maybe you need to ask the victim if they consent to providing the information to the overseer so that appropriate action can be taken.  From asking legal and Childsafe professionals this is what needs to happen.

       Please Jillian make your own enquiries if you don’t believe me. If you would retract your statement that Graeme is reluctant to act when he hasn’t legally been able to then we might just have the beginning of a working relationship. Thank you 🙏

     • Sorry Jillian my last post had a typo – it was meant to say ‘overseers are committed to keeping the fellowship SAFE. Appreciate your time in answering too

     • Mel writes, ” this is a new generation of overseers in my opinion who are committed to keeping our fellowship going forward”.
       What does “going forward” mean? Following in the path of William Irvine, Scott Rauscher, Dan Lawty, Harold Hilton, Scott Boswell, Barry, Ray, Dale…?
       Mel then writes, “overseers are committed to keeping the fellowship SAFE”.
       It’s good to see some people can live in a delusional bubble, play happy songs in their head, and stare at the sun all day thinking nice thoughts about the committed overseers.
       Actually they are committed. Rob Newman is committed to a mental health facility. And, at least he acknowledges that he has issues. The other overseers are just running loose and committed to causing havoc.

     • We all sat around the table over the years and pondered the miracle of the new yielded life in our midst.

       At that time, and then as each day passed, did we all ask ourselves, “What am I yielded to?”

       What might the overseers, and maybe the rest of us by extension, be yielded to at this time?

       Over the last 25 years, increasing the tempo every day it seems, there has been a virtual war going on; the voices of guile and the voices of truth getting stronger, one raising against the other.

       Deep in our being, I think most have the understanding, which voice is the true One in this matter before us.

     • @Mel,

       The title of this whole post was put by WINGS, (Australian Reluctance to act) not The Brave Truth, so you could maybe ask them about that?

       I’m glad you’ve found Overseers to be transparent – A poll would be an interesting way to find out if it’s just my opinion, or actually how people (current friends) find their interactions with the Overseers. There really only has to be a question about current Overseer Alan Mitchell’s travels in the last couple of months to determine ‘transparency’. When it’s travel funded by the friends I’d say it’s not unreasonable to expect some level of transparency. And with all respect Mel, and I hope my writing here doesn’t convey otherwise, I think when you’re well in the fellowship, you become used to the level of secrecy of how it’s run. Ask no questions, don’t need to know etc. It is a culture I guess.

       Regarding ‘replies as they should be’, the zero-tolerance policy is their policy – in some cases there are active police investigations on alleged perpetrators and the alleged perpetrators still have meetings in their homes, so yes, ‘should’ would mean zero-tolerance policy upheld.

       Wording was adjusted on The Brave Truth letters from our original letters to avoid any case for defamation. Legal advice said there was no case with our original letters, but we have done that to be extra cautious.

       A Police Intelligence report is exactly that. A victim-survivor can choose several options at the end of filling it out, from ‘I don’t want any contact’ to ‘I wish to take this further’. That is completely up to them.

       We do not contact the workers without the victim-survivors consent, but we also don’t have consent to share their details with the workers. So whilst the Overseers may not trust The Brave Truth at this point in time, unfortunately there are many victim-survivors who do not trust the Overseers. I can’t change that – it’s likely something that will take many many years to change – again, a culture.

     • Hey Mel, a little critical thinking is in order. 

       “If you would retract your statement that Graeme is reluctant to act when he hasn’t legally been able to then we might just have the beginning of a working relationship.”

       Of course he is reluctant to act. That is a fact. That does not imply that he is wrong. He may have sound reasons to be reluctant to act. I am reluctant to let my dog defecate on my neighbor’s lawn and that is a good thing, my neighbor is nearly twice my size.

       Graeme needs to be transparent as to his reasons why he is reluctant to act. No need to get butt hurt when you are called on lack of transparency. Brave Aust appears to be doing good work. Try working together. Bring them in and let them help you if you truly want to help victims and protect kids. Sure there is paranoia that BA is a trojan horse trying to weaponize the CSA issue against the church. In reality, the church is falling on its own sword by failing to use all the resources available. Even if you see them as enemies, “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.”

       Don’t view this an attack. There are good things going on in Australia.

9. If the victims don’t go to the police and go through the court system, the perpetrator will never be convicted. Of course it’s hard but if they have all the support from Brave Truth then it is doable. Even if the Workers stop them from going to the meetings without a conviction they are still free to take jobs involving children. They will get a clear Working with Children check. So meeting children might be protected but what about “outsiders” children?

   Reply

   • @Concerned – If the predator cared two hoots about being in meetings, they would go turn themselves into the police and tell them what they did! We aren’t dealing with honest people. Just because the police can’t NOW collect enough evidence to PROVE that a rape or molestation happened, does NOT mean it didn’t. ALL parents need to go straight to the hospital and ask for a rape kit…and tell the hospital that the police need to be called (they may do it automatically there, like they do here?), and do NOT tell the workers anything until they have their police report IN HAND. Do not waste time and take the chance of losing evidence!
     So, your suggestion is to leave them have access to the children of meeting going parents? Because we don’t want the “outsiders children” harmed? NO CHILDREN should be allowed to be harmed!! But, it seems ALL the overseers don’t give a rats behind that children are being used as sex toys for their adult peers.

     Reply

10. This email was sent out fourteen (14) years ago. The worker who sent it out was ridiculed and people were advised not to have any contact with him.

    Everything written here is gold!
    Rulers or Feeders?
    by Jim Wood
    July 11, 2010
    RULERS OR FEEDERS?
    If any of us were asked, “What do you prefer, rulers or feeders?” Most of us would say, “Give us feeders.” But so often when we are given the choice between those who are rulers and those who are feeders, we choose the rulers. Why? Whatever the reason, it seems to be a human tendency.
    We could point out a few characteristics of the rulers, such as the following. The rulers are the stronger ones; they’re the organizing ones; they are the authoritative ones; they are the judgers and the punishers. They often come into the place of power subtly, serving with the feeders, then taking over after the feeders are gone. How do we recognize them? There are ways they can be recognized, because the differences are great. However, the more difficult part is to acknowledge them and to admit to ourselves that they are what they are. So often the rulers who come into that place by serving at the side of the feeders, fall into a place of honor, or usurp such a place of honor among the people, that the people, even though they recognize that these are not the same as the feeders were, they cannot acknowledge that they are really rulers and not feeders.
    When Jesus sent His disciples out, He sent them out to heal and to feed. Luke 9 brings this out very clearly. He gave them power over unclean spirits and to heal all diseases, and He showed them how to give bread to people. This is the power that He gave them and really the only power.
    In this same chapter, He took away from them three powers: financial power, power of government, or political, and the power to destroy. These are some of the differences between the rulers and feeders, and they are truly great. One could wonder why would we ever confuse them as the differences are so vast. It seems that we have no trouble recognizing and acknowledging the rulers in the other fellow’s church, but we’re very loath to acknowledge it in our own.
    In Judges 9, we have another very true picture of the difference between them. The trees wanted a ruler over them. There are people who want to be ruled, and there are people who want to rule, and eventually they’ll come together. The people choose their ruler, and the ruler in time often becomes a despot, and exercises cruelty over the people. Anyway, the trees went first to the olive tree and the olive tree refused to be their king. Then they went to the fig tree, and it refused to be their king. Then they went to the vine, and it refused, also. These were all three feeders, and they were not interested in ruling. They loved the privilege of having food for others, and rejoiced in this.
    So the poor trees in their desire for a ruler went to the bramble. The bramble told them if they wanted him to rule over them, they would have to trust in his shadow, and if not, then let fire come out of the bramble and devour the cedars of Lebanon. How much shade is there under a bramble? How close to the ground do you have to get to be under it? How much liberty do you have under it? How far can you move without feeling its sting? There are things the feeders have that the bramble doesn’t have, and vice versa. The feeder had food, something for God and man; the bramble had none. The feeder had comfortable shade; the bramble didn’t. The bramble had thorns; the feeders didn’t. The bramble had a zeal that reached out to destroy better than itself. The feeders had a healthful influence — wine and oil — that could be carried far beyond the place where it stood. We can be assured of this, that the Lord may come as an olive tree, a fig tree, a vine, or as in the Song of Solomon, an apple tree, but He’ll never, never, never come as a bramble.
    The first three were not the least interested in promotion; they just wanted to be feeders and healers. This was one of the temp tations thrown at Jesus by Satan, promotion. When the people wanted to make Him king, promotion. He would have had to forsake all the goodness and sweetness and the fatness of the kingdom of Heaven, to accept this promotion. Yet men still love promotion, and accept it in the name of the One who was the greatest rejector of promotion there ever was. They still rule over others in the name of the One Who was the greatest feeder ever.
    People can complain about their lot under a ruler, but seldom want to change. They will also resist any effort of anyone to deliver them from such servitude, and they will defend even as far as destroy­ ing their own loved ones, the rights of their rulers to rule. This is a fact brought out many times in the Old Testament as well as in the New. Three cases come to mind regarding this. Gideon, Samson, and Jesus Himself. When Gideon tore down the altar of Baal, the god of the Midianites, the people of the city, his own brethren, were ready to destroy him for resisting their rulers. Samson’s brethren were ready to destroy him for resisting the Philistines, their rulers. Both of these men were being moved by God toward the deliverance of the very people that wanted to destroy them. And Jesus, the greatest deliverer there ever was, suffered the greatest rejection ever, by the people He came to deliver. The people asked in John 7:48 “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?” This seems so ridiculous, were not they able to see for themselves, think for themselves, and choose for themselves? Not really, and the masses of people never have been able to. They have always preferred that someone else do these things for them.
    Why do we need rulers? We don’t. Why do we choose them? Because we think we need them. Why do we think this? Because they, the rulers, have taught us this. What we need is feeders, and rulers are not feeders and never will be. But the feeders will be rulers, but of a different kind. The kind that we read of in Hebrews 13 that shepherd and care for the sheep. These are the kind that we will be able and willing to follow and obey, because they follow the Shepherd.
    What does it take to escape from the snare of the rulers? Three things come to mind. Recognition, acknowledgment, and courage. But none of these things are possible without a genuine love for the Good Shepherd. Without this love for Him, we won’t see the difference between His feeders and the rulers, even as vast that the difference is. With this love, we can recognize it, so we can acknowledge it, or admit to ourselves, and this love will give us the courage to face all opposition, even though we may have to do so alone.
    In II Cor. 11 we see some more marks of the rulers. Verse 3 … they depart from the simplicity that is in Christ. Verse 4 … they preach another Jesus, one of law instead of one of Grace. They impart another spirit and teach another gospel. Verse 5 … they are recognized as chief apostles. (In one version it says thus: I was not a whit behind those great apostles.
    Those that they the people esteemed to be great.) Verse 20 … they bring into bondage, they devour, they take, they exalt themselves, and they smite on the face. Yet we suffer or tolerate them. Why? Because we can’t bring ourselves to acknowledge that they are what they are. In connection with this we might mention II Cor. 7:2 some marks of the feeders, or the true apostles. “Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.” Quite a testimony and one that the rulers cannot truthfully claim. They claim it, but not truthfully, because they wrong, corrupt, and defraud. The greatest fraud being as Jesus told the Pharisees in Matthew 23 … they shut up the kingdom of God, etc. And they do this by not teaching the grace of God in truth.
    Another thing about rulers is that they have their favorites. They will favor them who love them, and support them, and will despise and persecute them who don’t love them, and don’t support them. Those who once gave them support and afterwards retracted it are slandered and accused of having a wrong spirit. They tolerate no opposition and will go to great extremes to stop the mouth of the opposition. The degree of the extent that this is carried is determined by the degree of departure of the church from its original form. In the early days in church history, the persecution would have been slander and rejection by the group, and gossip, etc. Later, as the departure reached a greater degree, it came to dungeons, torture chambers, and chopping blocks, all to the same end of stopping the voice of the dissenter, and all justified in the name of Christ. It is the same seed and the same soil, the only difference is time.
    It is nice to envision the church under the guidance of feeders. These will be good trees bearing good fruit and bringing gladness to the hearts of men and of God. The people will be individually taught of God, as they will be fed and nourished well and will grow in grace and in the knowledge of God and His Son. They will love one another and thereby hold up the standard, the only standard that Jesus gave whereby His people would be known by the world as such.
    Another mark of rulers is that they rule by law. Without law, they are nothing and have no power. They rule by decree through fear, leading people to believe that to disobey them is loss of salvation. They tell us that the ten commandments are still in force, and that to disobey them is sin. They tell us that there are problems today that didn’t exist in Bible days, so they have the right to make laws covering such things. We see all these things and accept their ruling, refusing to acknowledge that it is a perversion and a departure from Truth.
    The feeder feeds by life and spirit, bringing forth fruit that feeds the heart of the hungry of soul. There’s no laws governing the apple tree; anyone can pick and eat of the sweetness of its fruit and rejoice in its shadow. There is no fence around it, keeping certain people out, and certain people in. There is no chain tying people to the trunk, not even a line on the ground telling them how far they can go. Where the Spirit of God is, there is liberty.
    Let us value more and more the liberty wherein Christ has made us free, and understand and avoid the yoke of bondage.
    By Jim Wood

    Reply

    • The Leaders and Rulers have obviously been corrupted for decades.

      Reply

    • I knew Jim Wood, now deceased. There is a profound dichotomy here. 

      This bramble article is one of my favourite articles going back more than 14 years, more like 25 years. It is right on.

      Here is the dichotomy. Jim was corrupt. He seduced a married friend of mine, a beautiful person who was deeply damaged and guilt-ridden by the experience. He leveraged his ex worker mojo on her successfully. I am sick about what he did and the damage. And this is well after he wrote that very good treatise.

      Reconcile that. Regardless, I have an upright middle finger for Jim.

      Reply

      • @Watchman

        I am not surprised that Jim Wood was corrupt. I sort of half expected when I shared it that could be a possibility. Nothing surprises me anymore.

        What he wrote was true even if he wasn’t! We have been reading Chronicles and King Amaziah was one who did what was right in the sight of the Lord and sight of man but his heart was not pure and his end was according to his works.

        2 Chronicles 25:2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart. However, some of these aren’t even doing what is right in the sight of the Lord. They put on a show for the people.

        Many of them live this way because they know the secrets of the organisation and that the leadership is corrupt. It’s like if they go down, they can take the system down with them. Hence, why they are protected.

        Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

      • I am very curious where these “men of God” get their “experience” with this sort of behavior. Now we have Worker Wood seducing the cult ladies. Ex-Overseer Thayer had his divorcee girlfriend, Ex-Overseer LeRoy had his worker girlfriends, the worker up in Alaska with his ladies, not to mention Bruer, Leslie , Rauscher, and all the rest that haven’t been caught yet. Clearly, these guys have there minds on something else – no wonder they have no time for the CSA/SA issue.

      • Bucky, for accuracy’s sake, Mr.Wood was neither in the 2×2 ministry nor involved in the fellowship at the time of the incident I referred to.

      • Thank you for the clarification. As they say in the great American West, this probably was not Wood’s first rodeo. He may have, and probably did, hone his skill while in “the work”, based on what we now know of these characters (i.e. Bruer, LeRoy, Thayer, Leslie, Ellsworth, etc.).

        A note of caution: If any cult member has a halfway decent looking wife or girlfriend, do not let any male worker be alone with her. Nor should any kid be allowed to be anywhere near any worker of either sex.

      • @Watchman – another one of those, don’t I say wonderful things, but don’t turn your back…or you may be my next victim. Grrr!

11. I missed the footnote from Wings…

    The overseers have been aware of this alleged perpetrator since 09 August 2020. Even if there was NO Police intelligence report (let alone THREE) they still have no excuse to not enforce their own policy!

    Reply

    • Exactly Jillian! Amen.
      Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you guy’s and girl’s do for the innocent and vulnerable🌷

      Reply

    • I hope you’re sure of your facts here Jillian. Quite possibly there’s a number of people trying to work out who was demoted from being elder in NSW on 9 August 2020. And could be identifying for any related survivors as well.

      Reply

      • @ Are you sure, Yes, I am sure. (the date of the letter does not indicate the date of the elder being removed from his post)

12. Apologies Committed
    I meant the Australian/NZ overseers are committed.

    Reply

    • @Mel – the words sound great, the committment and actions don’t seem to be coming together to bring about a good outcome…like they made everyone believe they would. Just like everywhere else on the planet right now. Every single overseer can not seem to tell the truth about much of anything!! I don’t believe any of them are reading their Bibles or praying, I think they are spending all their time trying to figure out how to cover their butts and look the other way, in hopes that the FBI doesn’t come knocking (or your equivelant) because our people are communicating with other law enforcement all around the world. They have one goal – to completely destroy this whole cult. Which is what they have now dubbed us. So, I wonder what the new name will be once the investigation is over? We’ll go from Christian Conventions to the ‘Cult of Pedophiles, Predators, and ALL Sexual Deviants’ ? 

      Did you know that non-denominational churches with no checks and balances (like this one) draw predators faster than any other type of group? With the predators grooming ALL the congregants as soon as they arrive (not caring what our doctrine is, they just want access to our children), and they will preach whatever they think people want to hear (and to make their masters happy, until they can worm their way into the Overseer position), and this is exactly why Jesus said for NONE of his disciples to be “greater” than another…now, we not only have overseers, but we have overseers overseers! What’s next? 

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      • Henoffour, more great points! Your perspective is very real and refreshing to have thoughts that are not being run through a “spin machine” before being written for political reasons. Saying it just the way it is.

        Henoffour noted, “Jesus said for NONE of his disciples to be “greater” than another…now, we not only have overseers, but we have overseers overseers! What’s next?” What’s next is already taken place. In the old testament the people could see the Giants they were to confront and fight.

        Today those Giants, demons, the devil is still there to confront and fight, but now that evil cannot be seen, even though still very present and needed to be dealt with. That evil factor is in charge of the overseers of the overseers. It’s already taken place. It’s place is set.

13. Henoffour I hear you! I can’t speak for overseas but friends and workers in Australia that I have spoken to welcome an investigation into CSA. Any criminal behaviour does need to be exposed and any honest person (I know there are still a lot) would not need to butt cover.

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    • What cult people and cult workers say and what they do are two completely different things. They lie to each other at least twice a week, so are very good at it.

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      • Sounds like you fit right in! 😅

      • Junior Jones, I hope you laugh at your “jokes”, because I don’t get them. Do you live alone? Or, do the people you live with just wish you did?

      • Not sure why a blanket -blaming individual would really have a sincere interest in individual honesty, but no I don’t live alone and some peeps do laugh at “jokes” but many get grumpy if the context hits a raw nerve. Sorry, I apparently hit one of yours. 😰😅

      • Me and my wife DID FIT in VERY WELL for over 50 years – supporting the workers with food, shelter, cash and gas cards, some of which are now known peds, listening to Sunday and Wednesday testimonies that were just plain hot air, driving for endless miles on rainy Sunday nights to gospel meeting to hear more about the sower and the seed, going to potlucks in order to talk about losers and how cult members cheated someone the previous week, sweating through hot summer conventions with smelly toilets and listing to canned speeches, seeing cult ladies in spandex on a Monday morning on a trail after they looked like workers the day before, etc, etc, etc. 

        When we asked about church history, we were thrown out and slandered and shunned. All this for asking one honest question. But, God has blessed us many times over in every possible way. Way to many positives to list here. I feel almost like Job sometimes, but on a much smaller scale.

    • Welcoming an investigation, and following the scripture are two different things. The scripture is very clear that no predator is to be named amongst us. Has anyone on your staff learned anything about how predators think? The games they play? The charades (weeping and whaling…like Esau) The fact that they do not possess a conscience, so we can not possibly understand why they choose to do what they do? That not one “professing” predator has ever been willing to turn themselves in to law-enforcement to admit to their wrong choices? (yes, I know some have been turned in, but THEY didn’t turn themselves in because there’s no honest remorse). Any that have gone to prison, have they asked about restitution? That’s scriptural too. No? No kidding…because, even after spending time in prison, there’s STILL no remorse. No remorse = No attendance. 

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14. Hi Mel.
    Your various comments point to you being on the Advisory Group. 

    A number of concerned Friends wrote a brief letter to the AG on 24/2/24 via email, to ask for confirmation it still existed as no communication from the AG had been received since October 2023.  There was no acknowledgement of receipt, or reply. 

    The lack of reply indicated that talk of the AG having issues and disbanding was likely right. In the absence of the AG, a longer letter was sent to all the ANZ Overseers on 27th March 2024, with some questions (there are many more) collated from Friends in Australia and New Zealand, requesting guidance and clarity going forward. That letter has also gone unanswered so far.

    If you are or were on the AG and if it does still actually exist, could you encourage a reply to ccfinanz@gmail.com please.  There are SO many people in the Church with legitimate questions and concerns, and silence from the top is not reassuring at all.

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    • Thank you for this glimpse into what’s actually happening there. I’m sorry to hear this.

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    • turns out an advisory board might actually advise, so best shut that down!

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15. The workers are far too caught up in the busyness of gospel meetings, special meetings, and now today, the AUS/NZ convention dates, to pause all proceedings to properly take time to work out this mess. They’ve put a bandaid on a festering wound and have hoped for the best. I myself have been managed… from what I can tell, they have no interest in keeping children safe, only the appearance of it.

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