Dear friends,
We want to send you a message to let you know about some changes for the upcoming convention season. Here is a message from the owners of the Ellershouse convention place:
“For 2024 we are not comfortable holding Ellershouse convention here at the grounds. After open discussion with some of the workers we feel that it would be unwise to subject ourselves to any liability that could result.
Further, we want our actions before our community, the friends and workers to be aligned with our values and beliefs.
Chris and Marilou Toole”
(Response from Jonathan Freeburn):
We have greatly appreciated them making their property available in the past, but we respect their choice in light of the present situation.
We have found a public hall in the area where it might be possible to have some meetings on July 19-21. We will keep you informed as to those details.
Your brother, Jonathan.
Ellershouse is in Nova Scotia- the grounds where the epic flood happened during 2023 convention.
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Time for all to call the “public hall” and tell them about the FBI investigation regarding CSA, SA, and other bad behavior in this wicked cult. If the convention owners said they “not comfortable holding ……. convention” and after “discussion with some of the workers …. it would be unwise to subject ourselves to any liability that could result”, there is no logical reason why the public (i.e. taxpayers) should be liable either.
why so vindictive? Whatever happened to “he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone”?
CSA and SA are a CRIME – not a sin or “mistake” as many workers and members say. Convicted CSA and SA criminals can be locked up for life. There is a big difference between sins, which we all have plenty of, and doing CSA or SA, both of which effects victims greatly the rest of Their LIFE.
CR, who states, “why so vindictive? Whatever happened to “he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone”?”, is an all in ” church ” member, or very possibly a worker. Not a convention ground owner.
CR writes, “why so vindictive?” Vindictive is a strong unreasonable desire for revenge. Not wanting a convention to take place is an attempt to alleviate the very real opportunity for more vulnerable people to be sexually abused.
Look at the last OVERSEER to “withdrawn his place in the ministry”, DAN LAWTY. While Dan acknowledged that he caused ” HURT” and “INJURY”, Dan said, “I was thinking early this morning about the grape vine… I want to abide in the vine”. Dan is saying he wants to stay exactly where he’s at and doing what he has always done; sexually abusing vulnerable people.
“He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone”?” To think that people that hurt other people should not be treated with contempt, instead, “don’t judge them because everyone sins”? Yes, everyone is human and all humans are flawed. This does not give anyone a license to exact their twisted evil sexual desires and behaviors at the expense of others. The harm and affect a predators evil has on their innocent victims will last a life time.
To not hold convention is a very prudent decision. Especially in the environment that we now live, the likelihood of an sexual assault at convention is high. If an assault does occur at a convention the table is completely set up against the convention owner. For one, the active FBI investigation into the entire organization’s sexual abuse scandal should be enough for every single owner to do what Chris and Marilou Toole are doing. Not have convention.
Another factor is if there is a sexual assault on a convention ground, and the insurance company was not made aware of the FBI investigation before the convention took place, the entire insurance policy could very well be voided due to the known risk that the insurance company was not notified of. That would mean hiring the first team of lawyers, to defend the matter, would be up to the convention owner from the time suit papers are received. Keeping known risk information from the insurance company is a big no no. And policies are voided for such actions.
Even if a sexual assault does not occur and someone says it did, all of the above still applies. A defense is still needed. If you’re a convention ground owner, do yourself a favour and contact your insurance company. If you’re ever going to be honest, this is the time. Tell them what is going on in the ministry environment and that there has been many cases of sexual abuse and the FBI is now conducting a full scale investigation. Check what additional safe guards that are needed for the insurance company to be satisfied with their risk. Or, if the insurance company would still even consider the risk.
The insurance company will do their due diligence (reasonable steps taken in order to satisfy a legal requirement) before they grant dollar one be paid in any regard. This means a full scale investigation to determine if the risk was valid at the time of the damages. It is much better for the convention ground owner to be in front of the matter before the event, than after. If anything is misrepresented, that is immediate grounds for dismissal of the insurance contract.
It is done multiple times every day at every insurance company.
It is not a matter of “judging someone”, ” throwing stones “, or wanting revenge, as some people might suggest. It’s just being prudent about the property that you own, and the possible judgment against it. Nobody else will be there to ” chip in”, it will be there for you to deal with and defend on your own. Be careful. Do not let pride be a determining factor. He who exalt himself shall be humbled.
CR
That is a very convenient and apropos sermon for the enterprise right now. Many in the church hurting and feeling spiritually cheated – and you want to lather that one on.
I am going to thumb-suck 1/2 of the people are not buying what you are selling. One outta two ain’t bad though.
@CR – vindictive? Keeping children safe is vindictive? Sexually assaulting/abusing a child is NOT “just a sin”. It’s a crime. It’s also a SIN to be an enabler, or even an indirect enabler. One’s who participate in that capacity take on the sin of the one they are enabling. There’s NO forgiveness available to anyone for that sin until they:
One: Turn yourself in.
Two: Admit to your crimes.
Three: Admit to every person you have ever touched inappropriately, or molested, or raped.
Four: Admit to what you did to each of the victims.
Five: Admit you are wrong.
Six: Accept the consequences, and plead guilty to spare your victims any further hurt.
Seven: Accept the help offered while incarcerated.
Eight: Restitution
There is sin and there is Crime! CSA is a crime!
Crime must be dealt with by the law and not covered up. Only a cult considers themselves beyond the law. There is a law for this reason – to protect the vulnerable. Judgement doesn’t even come into it – that is only for God to do.
CR, being vindictive is not the issue here. The FBI is involved. The FBI has very well trained investigators and they look under every rock and turn over every stone.
The insurance companies that underwrite the convention ground owner’s risk are also very good investigators with many levels of checks and balances. The insurance company investigators don’t have the prestige of the FBI, but don’t let that fool you that they are not good at what they do.
While insurance payouts are made in error, this is rare. If convention ground owners don’t disclose their risks and it is found out after an incident, the request for payment will be denied. It’s not by accident that the top insurance companies have a net worth north of $150 billion.
Weird comment, if you’re paranoid enough to think your kid is going to get molested in a public hall? I have a bit more confidence in Canadien society than some, apparently. 😵💫
Apparently the convention owners were concerned enough about CSA and SA occurring on their property that they shut it down. This is the second Canadian convention to announce it is closing so far in 2024. Canadian society may be ok, but that does not transpose to anything else north of the border, as those in Maine would say.
PUBLIC HALL?
How wonderful that you feel this way, however misguided.
In the world of policing, we don’t align with your thinking, sadly.
Yes, go ahead! Plus, be sure they understand that law-enforcement needs to be present to keep the children & vulnerable adults safe, and anyone that would happen to wander onto the property or be walking past. Because if Merlin Affleck and Dale Schultz think it’s “fine” to allow predators to run free and have access to everyone else’s children and wives, the widows, and Single women. Not happening!!!
If we have the right values and beliefs ourselves, we will understand clearly it is in wisdom and understanding that Chris and Marilou Toole felt compelled to not hold this planned convention on their property again this year.
I for one certainly applaud their right to make their personal choices, to protect their property and considerations of others.
The likelyhood of a sexual assault is greater at most any school, mall, summer camp or many other venues in North America than any convention, in my worldly opinion.
I expect any landowner of convention property today is well versed in municipal codes, regulations, laws, insurance requirements etc.
As well as the financial risks and burdens associated with that responsibility or choice. They surely understand their freedom of choice to participate as a host or not.
But if I myself owned a convention ground or 2 and needed helpful advice, I surely would reach out to try to hire your helpful services.
Junior Jones, you noted, “I expect any landowner of convention property today is well versed in municipal codes, regulations, laws, insurance requirements etc.” You said, “I expect…”. Yes, you would EXPECT most people to know about the contracts they get into, but many people don’t have the slightest clue to the nuances of what they are dealing with and how their risk is much greater than what they realize. Most people, however, don’t have a thousand people coming onto their property. Most of the people that they do not know.
It is good to be prepared. It is better to be prepared, and have the insurance company in full knowledge of what you are hoping to be prepared for. Insurance companies go by the letter of the policy that is written. Every single word of the insurance policy, or contract has meaning and is there for a reason. A policy holder cannot plead ignorance as an escape clause. It does not work that way. It is best for the policy holder to make full disclosure of the insurance risk before an event, than to have the risk found out after the event. An known risk not disclosed is considered dishonest and it is highly discouraged when dealing with insurance companies.
Hi Junior
Just so the readership is not confused in any way with your opinion, can you please clarify your stance over the last two days. Any confusion to the people I do not think is good at this time. And I may be the only one confused.
much appreciated. Thank you.
@jr yes many of us have enjoyed conventions for many years with our children, families and friends. We realized they were much safer than many other places, but we also knew and talked to our children about the many, many dangers that were everywhere. We tried to teach them about proper relationships that they would have with others. To try to guide them of dangers that they might encounter. Most of our talks with our children were aimed at the dangers in the world, at school, school events, social parties, but we were well aware that not everyone who attended a convention was a saint. Far from it, we knew we were all a work in progress and some hadn’t even begun the process.
we all must perform risk analysis through out our lives. In our daily lives it is obvious that we all view risks very different. Think of a physical event that most enjoy but one that you got hurt at. The same could be said of a convention which most enjoy, but one that a child got hurt at.
I have seen a perfectly safe work environment taken over by safety minded people who wanted to add rule after rule until they made it into a work free safety zone.
Amen
I agree. A while ago I visited a place where there was 352 rules. And that was just for the camp lunch room. How long you washed your hands, what you wore, no phones allowed, ad nauseum.
But production of an enterprise may win out at the end of the day.
I am not suggesting the group should not implement policy for this very dangerous risk – at the least it creates a mindset in the people to watch. To be aware of the potential for a Black Swan.
But I perceive the enterprise in our case is very resistant to this policy. This tells me they are thumbing their nose at the health and safety and well-being of the worker in the work place.
well said. One of the contributing factors to the collapse of the SU was the red tape, bureaucracy and cumbersome rules that weighed the country down. We are becoming a society that has no courage nor faith. It’s no surprise that this mentality has slipped in amongst those who follow God. Excessively concerned about safety.
Convention is just one opportunity for grooming and/or abuse. The larger issue is that our organizational culture is set up in a way that allows abuse to occur and even continue – rather than preventing and addressing it.
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If we don’t change our system and culture, abuse will continue (among those who stay) whether at convention or elsewhere.
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This concise and hard-hitting BBC report from 2021, of an independent investigation into child sexual abuse in religious group in the UK, makes the point plainly (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270). Excerpt here in italics:
.
“[The independent report] covers a series of religious groups including Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Methodists, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and non-conformist Christian denominations.
The report said that many religious groups were putting children at risk by:
.
Sound familiar?
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Jonathan Olson wrote a very helpful letter posted on this site (May 28, 2023, https://wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/30/overseer-abuse-of-power/) that identifies many of these same features in our own fellowship. Trev Larsen’s post from August 11, 2023 (https://wingsfortruth.info/2023/08/11/wisdom-from-a-young-person/), is in a similar vein, and there are many other observations just on WINGS alone that could help us address the systemic and cultural issues that allow abuse to continue.
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Canceling conventions and other gatherings is just one part of it.
and then we have the many examples of times when false and misleading information was used-as in the daycare scandal of the 1980s/90s.
@observer that is an interesting list of causes for the problem. While I can agree that each can contribute to the problem the one that stands out as a way within our power to correct the problem is
Not openly discussing matters of sexuality
and it seems that task is primarily the responsibility of us parents. That is the one thing in our power to really make a difference and truly protect our children no matter where the offender comes from at convention, at special meeting, at meeting, at school from the neighbors, or where ever.
Observer, what you wrote is very thoughtful and helpful. You did some digging to get the information that you provided. What you wrote is actually what one would expect from a great many people. It would seem a lot of people would be interested in any changes to make the overall church environment safer, less worrisome and therefore more edifying, given that the church fills such a huge part of peoples lives.
Since the Dean Bruer news broke, and many other overseers have been exposed to not living Godly lives, along with many lower tier workers, there has been outcry and disgust expressed from some, but for the vast majority of the people, you hear nothing. Or, you hear from the “CRs” of the group that say, “Whatever happened to “he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone”?”
The majority of the people are like mindless cattle being driven to market for slaughter. It makes no sense. People do have a brain, some are actually quite accomplished, yet they can’t think. Bow down to what you have always bowed down to, many times for generations now. Call this a religion that spans over 2000years when there is very clear evidence it is a little over a 100 years old. It was started by a man, William Irvine and his beliefs, not Jesus Christ and His direction. To say otherwise is delusional.
The same can be said about many other religious groups that were started by a human and not Christ: Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Unity School of Christianity and the list goes on. Why do people want a counterfeit, to the real thing? Especially after there is so much abuse that has been uncovered?
Every side group has their hook. After being a member for over 50 years and being a generational member, the allure is that you know nothing else. Your entire life revolves around going to meetings, going to more meetings, going to many funerals, that are the same as meetings and not having a clear space in your own mind to ask, what am I doing? What am I accomplishing? It is very rare that something new is learned in a meeting. Nobody, or at least very few people have any education on the customs of the day in which they talk about. Most people don’t know about the history, or political environment of the day. The information from an uneducated worker is extremely faulty, and basically meaningless. That is why so much is said about, “abiding in the vine”. For what ever that means in daily life. Or, ” to make sure your lamps have oil and are trimmed “.
Scott Rauscher should be talking about internet porn. That is a REAL problem that many men secretly utilize. It should be talked about how to live Godly lives within the sanctity of a marriage. That intimacy should only be with your own wife. Discussing real world issues would bring real changes. But the leadership would also need to be living a clean and decent lives themselves. Which many are not. Most, if not all of leadership is compromised. This all just goes back to the question, why follow something that a flawed human started when you can follow Jesus Christ?
Amen.
I agree with that one point from the list you pick from; it is important and yes, parents are within that sphere of influence with their children.
I also understand that too many people spend too much time and worry in the sphere of influence where they have no control … and not enough time in the sphere of influence that they can control. We waste our time and worrying efforts often in the wrong place.
This is not necessarily a related anecdote, but it reminds me of one of the older lady friends one time, when confronted by someone that told her she worried too much. She replied “All the things I ever worried about never came to pass. So I am going to keep right on worrying.”
Anyway, further down the road less travelled, there is another point on the list that I would like to make if you allow. And that is “Abuse of power by religious leaders.”
Now; do we all roll over and play dead because we do not think it is within the realm of our influence to speak truth to earthly power within an earthly organization? We then are of all men most miserable if no one in the group has the cojones to do something about this blight within the church – the blight of enterprising individuals running amuck in their thirst for control of the Bride of Christ. The enterprise of religious authority would like to hold us by the cojones and take care of them for us.
So if there is not enough brothers and sisters in the church that have some backbone to deal with one of the causes of the present conundrum, then I question the percentages that I rub shoulders with in the fellowship that are but clientele of the enterprise. The Versace garment looks sweet, but it must be covering up but sinew on the bone.
And that was my little thought for the day, I would like to go on and be faithful. Amen.
@its not that difficult. I read with interest your logic on this one. Correct me if I got the wrong message. You speak about a man made religion where the men had no connection with Jesus, I.e. He did not call them to the ministry or to have a relationship with him. And yet you end with you just want to follow Jesus. I assume from that logic that God has given you a revelation of Jesus so you would know what to follow, but all these men and women who tried to follow Jesus in the past were fakes and didn’t really hear anything from God, they just made it up?
I can understand your frustration when we hear about a worker or friend that winds up leading a double life. Most of us cannot fathom such behavior. But I have also heard about and known intimately a multitude of friends and workers who have kept true and faithful to their calling just like I hope to do. The revelation I received in the beginning is not dependent on the faithfulness of others but on my trust in God.
@Mark, it’s perfectly fine with me for you to add to the list, and yes you picked a good one. For me however for whatever reason it doesn’t seem to apply much in our area. I see from what others write that it is a huge problem in other areas. The worst case with me involved my grandchildren who went to school in another area and were bombarded with the West Coast doctrine over and over in gospel meetings. I only had one incident in our area where a worker felt he had to tell a young man in our meeting not to take part for a while after marrying outside. He knew my displeasure quite well and was moved shortly thereafter. Some of us do speak up, probably when others wish we would be quiet.
Amen – thank you that you considered that other point.
I do understand what you are referring to. There are some fields that are clicking along and many people seem to be happy, albeit in my estimation maybe happy to hang on to yesterday. There are some without the fortitude or wherewithal to process the information and my heart goes out to them. In some large swathes of land however, it seems they are leaving the information for a more convenient day to process. Some of this is likely due to an eagerness to please the enterprise.
I do perceive though it takes strength within to walk against the prevailing winds of the day that melds the religion of politics with the politics of religion. Those domains are becoming more eager to declare, “whatever is good for me and my loved ones will get my vote. To hell with my neighbour”.
In other words, as long as it is only my neighbour’s house that is on fire, I can sleep soundly.
I do perceive that many people are surfing the wave, maybe not realizing it may be cresting over their head. The troubled waters of the church is one wave, and the troubled times otherwise is another. A portion of the people think of one or both matters as ‘this too shall pass’. Well, the church as we know it has never been in this place before, and neither has the world. We may be inclined to think that history repeats itself. Maybe the spiritual realm has been here before, but an interesting new mix of variables has not previously been presented to our generation. We will come to know.
And you bring up another very good point about the east coast doctrine of Christ versus the west coast doctrine of Christ within the church. Golly! Dang it!! My pen just ran outta ink!
Good chat.
@Amen, @Mark S, in addition to your comments, I’d say that “men dominating the leadership” is another obvious one that is harmful and non-scriptural, and should be relatively easy to address.
Clearly women can be abusers, bullies, narcissists, etc, as well as men can. But when a group is led by just one demographic – in this case, just a few men who are unaccountable to anyone else, no checks and balances – damaging things tend to happen as we’ve seen.
“Men dominating the leadership” isn’t even Biblical. If we read, for example, Romans 16 in an accurate translation, we can see that there were many women in important “leadership” roles in the early church. The work of Beth Allison Barr and others, mentioned by another poster on this site several months ago (thank you!), is very helpful in understanding some of the apparently gendered writing in the New Testament.
Mark S, you nailed it saying, “In other words, as long as it is only my neighbour’s house that is on fire, I can sleep soundly”. Coming from a group of ” religious people “, shouldn’t they have care, concern and compassion for their neighbor as it was themselves? Don’t they think the evil who set their neighbors house on fire could also set their house on fire?
“There are some fields that are clicking along and many people seem to be happy, albeit in my estimation maybe happy to hang on to yesterday”. Ignoring the facts doesn’t mean that the facts don’t exist. Putting your head in the ground in order to not see what is happening around you doesn’t mean it is still not happening. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic did not save the ship.
At one time ignorance was the rule of the day, now for those remaining, it’s blissful ignorance. Ignorance by choice. If they cover their eyes and don’t see their neighbors house burning down, it really isn’t.
I am related through marriage to a 70 year plus cult member. When told about the CSA issue, this person said “I can’t be bothered by that – I do not know of any victims”. Not sure if this response will be accepted by God when we stand before him. Wondering if this is the common thought pattern within members?
@Mark and others. I see once again that when I make the statement of fact that the problems many are so frustrated with don’t exist or are minimal in this area I once again get castigated for being so uncaring for others and burying my head in the sand. I wonder why the question isn’t how can that be? Why the difference? I tend to try to solve problems by figuring out what I can do about it, what is within my -power. That is why I started by saying I would try to help my children. My grand children and yes my great grand children. Of course I will also do all I can for those in our meeting, but I am pretty limited in reaching across the ocean, or the land for that matter. My influence goes down exponentially. Observer says women should have a more leadership role. I have no problem with that. In fact as I look back, it has been sister workers in our field the majority of the time and I have loved their influence on ou fellowship.
just this for now, my ink ran out on that other subject also. Maybe we should leave it to Jesus to solve. If our opinion comes from a man, it can be changed by another man.
Amen – I honestly do appreciate this response from you. From the spirit of this last writing, I now know in some small measure of where you are coming from.
The reality numerous in the church have come to, very early on in this, is that this is much bigger than any one person. At the beginning of Bruergate, no one even comprehended the magnitude of a crime scene this would blossom into. No one person that is pouring their heart, mind and soul into making some difference in the fellowship for protection of the children and holding the enterprise accountable thinks they can bear the burden alone.
To this point, I perceive that you have been an armchair critic saying, “it is not going on in my backyard, so it really does not apply to me”. We as a people can let it apply today, or we can wait until tomorrow. Because in some way or other, it will affect everyone in the church. The spirit of your previous writings indicated to people you were criticizing them for their efforts. You will naturally get push back on that from people trying their best.
So I very much understand where you are coming from when you say, “what can I do?”. Like the rest of the burden bearers, not much as an individual. And yes, we can all say as you might be acquiescing to ‘we will leave it to Jesus to solve’. Yep we certainly can leave it at that. I believe Christ is well able. But that might warrant some meditation on that point of view.
So what can you do? I have no clue what He might ask you to do. You do not know, because you have not asked Him yet. You have not meditated yet on the magnitude of the problem, and further how it is going to affect you. In the least, you can start your journey by not pushing back with those that are trying to do something and make a difference for the children’s sake.
And to you, and to all the overseers down to the lowliest of saints – ask Him what you can do to be a part of the solution, because to this point in time, you have inferred to the people that you were content to be part of the problem.
And to those that left the church, I respect them. They did their part. They stood up out of their seats, and all made the statement that they were unwilling to abide by the corruption covered, and the religious pride and arrogance displayed, by the enterprise of religious power and authority.
With care,
@mark I enjoyed your analysis of me. You are getting closer but you are not there yet. When I read the part about I hadn’t yet asked God what I could do it caused me to stop and think a bit, because if that were true I would have to conclude that I really don’t have a relationship with God. I have believed since I first felt that He began to speak to me and give me a revelation of His Son that I have tried to understand what His will is for my life and have asked him for the power to do it. I would hope that is the experience of most. I believe most are not armchair warmers but lead very dedicated lives to help in His kingdom. Sure some fail, some fail miserably. But what I believe God has asked me to do from the beginning is to be faithful to Him in the place He has put me.
I may be very wrong but I sincerely believe that is the message God desires for each of His children. We enter His kingdom. We don’t make our own.
Amen,
I am sorry and I do apologize that point I made. I misspoke and I stand to be corrected.
I just interpreted your statement that you did not really know what to do for the greater good of the greater family meant to me that you had not asked Him. You have corrected me and I accept that. I do not want to discount anyone’s efforts in their journey, nor where in their journey they are.
I am beyond the point in my life where I feel I can determine another man’s, or woman’s, relationship with God. But I do like to ask some questions and prod a little bit to understand if they themselves know what their relationship with God is.
Please accept my apologies. In all sincerity.
@Mark peace brother. As we enter and travel down Gods kingdom. We all are on different journeys. May God speed each of our journeys.
Mark S, you stated, “At the beginning of Bruergate, no one even comprehended the magnitude of a crime scene this would blossom into”.
You are probably right, nobody knew the full magnitude and huge stink and mess it would uncover. It was like pulling a loose thread on an old garment and before long the whole thing was coming apart.
After Dean Bruer turned up dead in that Best Western motel that he was a frequent patron of, his death was kept uncovers for months. Given that the lauded Dean Bruer had passed on to his place of eternal life, it would seem like that would have been immediately released as huge news.
But, no, it was months. Dean’s death was not shouted from the roof tops, like his celebrated speaking engagements throughout the world at conventions were. It was months before Dean was known to be dead. Given the extended, long delay in releasing the death notice of such a statuary figure, it would seem that some people did know the magnitude of that crime scene.
If the hand of those wasn’t forced by Wings For Truth, that was about to break the news, would it ever have been revealed? News that is counter to the set template that began with William Irvine has always been downplayed, if not completely denied.
Fortunately, as slippery and smooth as Dean Bruer and William Irvine both were in life, death has shown the real character of both. And, the character is there as a very large reflection of the entire group. Yeah, Mark S, no one probably even comprehended the magnitude of a crime scene this would blossom into.
Even though they did try to sweep it under the rug, like the sexual abuse, spiritual abuse and other tawdry matters preferred to be kept uncovers. But, it did turn in a very big crime scene. Lots of victims found. And the numbers keep growing…
Amen writes, ” I have also heard about and known intimately a multitude of friends and workers who have kept true and faithful to their calling just like I hope to do”.
By reading this it appears that Amen has detailed knowledge of these people’s righteousness, or self righteousness. True and faithful to their calling? That sounds like a Sunday meeting testimony.
What’s the “calling”? Are humans that righteous? Is anyone really always “true and faithful”? God is true and faithful, but are humans that way? Does anyone really have to, “known intimately a multitude of friends and workers”? This statement by Amen is something that sounds like it came thoughtlessly out of some meeting testimony anywhere.
The Word of God says, “We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind”.
I’m an old man now – A month or so ago my son gave me a ‘bucket list’ gift of a trip to Atlantic Canada (from Sweden where I have lived for 50 years) to explore my grandmothers background from New Brunswick before she emigrated to Saskatchewan in 1913.
In retrospect I have understood that she was a most amazing woman, filled with the most beautiful kind of moral dignity and principle. Sorry I missed that aspect of her when I was growing up. (she had nothing to do with 2x2ism!)
In the short 10 days Alfons (kid #4 -30 years old) and I spent traveling through the Maritimes .. trying to understand the history .. and in trying to share her story and our feelings about her with the wonderful folks we met along the way, I could understand a little better the mindset and background that had contributed to the amazing basic moral character that she possessed – and that she did her best to pass on to us.
Therefore it doesn’t really surprize me that Atlantic Canada seems to me to lie in the foreground today of ordinary folks capacity to turn their backs on the vile aspects of 2x2ism that have proven to be so morally destructive and to bravely stand for what is right and true. Makes me somewhat proud of my distant NB roots!!
My real name is quite OK
And may I add if people will just read.
I am not familiar with how actuaries in insurance companies estimate their risk, but I have spent much time directing teams to do hazard analysis and risk assessment. This is something that people, even very sharp people hate to do. Give it to Mark to lead, he will do it. He is a sucker for punishment they say out loud, but with a smile on their face as they say it. People always articulate a certain level of risk in their designs, but one individual never gets there. It always takes a team.
I apologize for getting technical on people, but there is another aspect to this world of hazard analysis in machinery. It is called FMEA – Failure Mode and Effects Analysis. How can an element fail and put people at risk.
Here is the rub. If a person does not know history/reality/intricacies of machinery and does not attempt to foresee what could go wrong, including estimating all the myriad of different psych’s that could potentially operate that machinery, there will likely come a surprise one day. And yes, there is always a psych that will surprise us. The miners found a way to bust a transmission on a machine underground in Phalaborwa, South Africa – a component that had never been busted before anywhere. By the time I got underground the next afternoon, all seven of our machines were busted in the very same way. Ya, we did not perceive and understand the psych we were up against.
And the judge will ask our company, where is your risk assessment. I want to see where you thought about and documented the risk. A man just lost his life, now you do the talking. You may think I am blowing smoke, but I stood in those mining boots two months ago in the bowels of a mountain, helping a company understand what they missed. It is not an enjoyable exercise.
I will try to make this short, because I know people are busy, and many do not like to read. But here is the catch. We did not consider as a people the risk, and the psych that would develop over time in the operators of the machinery of religious enterprise.
Read your history books people. Not only the broad strokes history of mankind, but also the history of where the operators of the 2×2 brand machinery of religious enterprise left other people holding the bag. The operators told us not to look at the history for a reason. And the operators are telling us today in so many words, it is fine to look at whatever you want to on the internet, just don’t look at the truth. We bought the machine: the 6 cylinder diesel sounded powerful, it had a good looking hood, and the seat in the cab was comfy. We all were convinced that we knew how to kick the tires.
Ya, if I did not know better, the convention ground owners are at risk. But when the chips are down, the operators will skiddadel, and the corporation will declare Chapter 11 (verse whatever).
So to all the operator’s of this machinery of religious enterprise, where it is evident the enterprise’s priorities was in the survival of the enterprise, and not the health and wellbeing, and life of an individual. I entreat you as a friend and a brother, please start crawling down from the pinnacle of the temple. An unseen force working within, encouraged you to climb up there. No way he is asking you to throw yourself down. Please brothers, for sake of the people. Yes it will be scary and it will not be for the faint of heart, it may be a long way down, especially for those brothers perched on the peak. It is the highest pinnacle around. The enterprise even said so.
That is an important post MarkS, even if you took your time getting to the point! :)
There was a time when I thought that risk assessment and risk management were innate characteristics of humans, and I suppose on some rudimentary level, it is.
The problem arises in prioritization of values. Sort of like this “we care about the protection of children but we care about convention more.” And that leads to risky behaviours and blindness to risks. Convention owners such as Ellershouse and Bonner’s Ferry seem to be waking up to this. The spiritual leaders, not so much and in fact the leadership appears to not care, the convention must go on!
Yes Watchman – risk assessment is an innate design in humans. You and I would not be chatting today if that was not so.
Then as we go through life, we build on a database so-to-speak of further risk assessments that form the basis of what we flee from on a moments notice. Some of these things though can be only fears and not risks. Religious enterprise has convinced people they did the risk assessment for us and here are the risks.
Religious enterprise has convinced humanity that not fearing the enterprise is a risk.
Chris and Marilou, it iis wise and prudent of you to think through and stand by your own moral compass, and also understanding the potential for you to lose significantly financially. You alone are responsible for what happens on your property. To say, “…we are not comfortable holding…convention… it would be unwise to subject ourselves to any liability that could result. Further, we want our actions before our community, the friends and workers to be aligned with our values and beliefs”.
Good for you to have your own values and beliefs! You had, “open discussion with some of the workers” and it is obvious your values and beliefs differed from their values and beliefs. Of course, you also had the liability and they didn’t have that concern.
Even though you are in Canada, things have escalated significantly in the last year with the FBI involvement. The FBI investigation alone will add to the liability of convention ground ownership because that raises the red flag everywhere that conventions grounds are dangerous waters, do not enter. If there are conventions that are held, going against decent common values and beliefs like the Toole’s hold, the property ownership better plan for safety outside of what they have previously.
Uniformed security is not a stretch. Since the FBI is involved and awareness should be at an all time high, there will be no leeway in regards to liability. There will be no reason for not being highly alert. If there is a sexual assault, the law, courts and juries will have no mercy. And they shouldn’t. At this point Chris and Marilou are wise. To not follow their lead is be foolish and arrogant.
Back in the 1990s, I sat in a convention, listening to a speaker comparing our gathering to events in “the world.” We were assured that leaving personal items unattended or cars unlocked wasn’t a concern at OUR convention – no need for security guards. The irony? Unimaginable atrocities were occurring right on those same grounds. Now, 30 years later, the suggestion of security guards to prevent pedophiles and sexual abusers from attending is on the table. How times have changed! It’s almost laughable to think I sat there, diligently taking notes on that misguided rhetoric.
Years ago I would have thought with admiration of convention owners, now my thoughts are just of compassion and at times, pity. These individuals have given so much of their time; money; natural, spiritual, and emotional energy; and earthly possessions to host conventions and the many months of preps of the years, and what do they have now?? The amount of stress and disappointment must be shattering. For many, I imagine the lost cost must be incalculable.
So we must consider why are they in this position??? CSA is a symptom of so many problems- theological problems related to legalism and fundamentalism as well as complete lack of appropriate structuring of the organization and checks or balance and lastly, moral denigration.
Rather than the overseers handling this situation with integrity and registering this group as a church and working towards to protecting all its members, it has denied the undeniable that it is an organization and refused to make a clear plan of protection and has locked up their funds.
If they attempted to right this wrong now and follow the legal and social conventions to register the 2×2’s as a organization, which would allow them to buy their own convention grounds so convention owners would not be burdened with the financial and moral dilemma imposed on them, they cannot in fear of lawsuits.
Therefore, in short, convention owners are just another victim to the 2×2’s. The overseers cannot risk loosing all their money to the many victims so the organization is remaining unofficial.
How will this end? So many people are wondering this every day. If I was a convention owner, I could cut my loses and run. The overseers are not your advocate so be your own.
to writer and re writing of ‘Convention Owner – ..’
This is a very insightful and articulate writing.
I sense you are seeing what the church is up against. And anyone from the top down can make the choice to start seeing. We can choose to remain a stiff necked people, not willing to turn our head and see. ‘How will it end’ you ask. I perceive it will not end well for those whispering and listening to the whispers of religious enterprise. People, if you are not willing to open your eyes, or your ears…then open your spiritual noses.
And once again, in accordance with this writing about the convention ground owners, the ones that will pay the highest price will be the innocent and the vulnerable. This has happened before if people will just be willing to read the history books. Enterprising individuals within the enterprise will once again cover their tracks and split with the bag.
“Therefore, in short, convention owners are just another victim to the 2×2’s. The overseers cannot risk losing all their money to the many victims so the organization is remaining unofficial..”.
Very good points here. The overseers may be the only ones that come out unscathed. They hold the millions of dollars from the widows estates and could live very well. And, they don’t want to lose the money. And, the overseers won’t lose the money. That is if the FBI investigation does not crush them. The forensic accountants might be able to get at some of the money that is not hidden away in suitcases.
As for convention ground owners and the general membership, there are victims now, with many more to come. “The amount of stress and disappointment must be shattering. For many, I imagine the lost cost must be incalculable”. This will apply to many people, but especially to convention ground owners.
“If I was a convention owner, I could cut my loses and run. The overseers are not your advocate so be your own”. This is a great piece of advice! Sometimes you need to know when to walk away, and sometimes you need to know when to run. That time has come. It is now. Be your own advocate and take some good advice. It’s that time.
No one should be listening to anyone in the ministry that’s in a leadership position at this time. All the convention owners are soon going to be facing law suits, and likely facing bankruptcy – thanks to the Ministry. This ministry has SO much to answer for…yet, they STILL aren’t willing to do what’s right!!!!!!! So, even these new ministers (overseers) are choosing to take on the SIN of their peers, by enabling the predators (enabling can be direct or indirect). They ALL need to step down, and allow the Elders to take their rightful place as the OVERSEERS. No matter what Ray or Barry are stating! Ray and Barry are NOT seeking God’s guidance on ANYTHING. They are trying to cover their own butts and they are actually causing more damage to the fellowship and to their own reputations (which the FBI is watching).
No one should be listening to anyone in the ministry that’s in a leadership position at this time. All the convention owners are soon going to be facing law suits, and likely facing bankruptcy – thanks to the Ministry. This ministry has SO much to answer for…yet, they STILL aren’t willing to do what’s right!!!!!!! So, even these new ministers (overseers) are choosing to take on the SIN of their peers, by enabling the predators (enabling can be direct or indirect). They ALL need to step down, and allow the Elders to take their rightful place as the OVERSEERS. No matter what Ray or Barry are stating! Ray and Barry are NOT seeking God’s guidance on ANYTHING. They are trying to cover their own butts and they are actually causing more damage to the fellowship and to their own reputations (which the FBI is watching).
No one should be listening to anyone in the ministry that’s in a leadership position at this time. All the convention owners are soon going to be facing law suits, and likely facing bankruptcy – thanks to the Ministry. This ministry has SO much to answer for…yet, they STILL aren’t willing to do what’s right!!!!!!! So, even these new ministers (overseers) are choosing to take on the SIN of their peers, by enabling the predators (enabling can be direct or indirect). They ALL need to step down, and allow the Elders to take their rightful place as the OVERSEERS. No matter what Ray or Barry are stating! Ray and Barry are NOT seeking God’s guidance on ANYTHING. They are trying to cover their own butts and they are actually causing more damage to the fellowship and to their own reputations (which the FBI is watching).
first Woodstock convention shutting down in NewBrunswick and now Ellershouse convention shutting down in Nova Scotia with all what’s going on in the minstrey today such as CSA/SA and other kinds of abuse, why wouldn’t Napan convention shutdown also….I hope they have lots of insurance on their property….Napan is in NewBrunswick also