Survivors of child sexual abuse (CSA) have often suffered silently for many years. Many haven’t been believed when they did report the abuse, or felt that they wouldn’t be believed, or were deliberately told to keep quiet. If disclosure occurs eventually, recognition that the abuse did occur and caused significant harm can be an early step in healing but in many cases trauma requires professional therapy.
Therapy is funded by state agencies or insurance in certain countries, but usually only to a limited extent and only in narrow circumstances. In some countries, therapy is very expensive. WINGS is aware of one ex-worker requiring therapy that is likely to cost $35-50,000.
Individual cases may justify differing levels of ministry funding. e.g.
1. Where abuses occurred in circumstances under ministry control: up to 100% of funding as needed by survivors:
- abuse by workers;
- abuse that occurred at conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, and fellowship meetings;
- where any abuses were known by the ministry but action was not taken.
2. Church-related abuse. Partial funding:
- abuse by church members upon church members;
- abuse by elders vetted and selected by the Church should attract higher amounts of partial funding.
3. Non-Church related abuse. Optional funding:
- abuse by non-Church members upon Church members.
The ministry is widely believed to control significant funds, millions of dollars in some states. In a limited number of regions, the ministry has contributed to funding for therapy. However, most overseers have generally refused to provide financial support for victims of CSA, on the basis that:
- The ministry is not an organisation, therefore they are not responsible;
- They have no money;
- The funds were donated for the maintenance of the workers, not for any other purpose, (although funds have been used for the maintenance and upgrade of convention grounds).
Many friends and some workers have provided financial support to CSA victims, either privately or through organisations such as Washington/North Idaho/Alaska Fund, Oregon/South Idaho Fund, AFTT, and more recently, Bridges & Balm, and United Open Arms. See Guide to Therapy Funds. WINGS understand that funds are likely to be exhausted in a few months given ongoing needs.
Friends are aware that international travel by workers, such as for convention tours, costs a lot but is readily funded by the ministry. Some believe that it is past time for the ministry to prioritize supporting victim survivors with ongoing therapy needs. This may include cancelling or curtailing ministry funded travel, at least for a few years, and to divert the funds to therapy for victim survivors.
Right now, the best way to support the ministry is to support groups who are helping survivors of abuse, both by encouraging worker funds to be provided and by also making private donations to these organisations.
The following analysis was forwarded to The Brave Truth Australia & New Zealand. WINGS thought it important information to share. The analysis was created by survivors to highlight the stunning cost of travel to have keynote speakers at conventions in Australia & New Zealand, and the number of therapy sessions that could have been funded instead. The same exercise could be undertaken for travel in all other regions.
From the people who gathered this information…
Footnote: Purpose of this exercise
To highlight the huge cost of moving workers around during convention season and to respectfully pause to consider being victim centric and channel funds towards mental and emotional wellbeing, and support for those who have been minimised and/or forgotten. To also counter the many horrible abuses, coverups and deceit which have been costly, more than money could afford or fix.
Putting victim care as a priority, would be an act of goodwill and honest acknowledgement and a first step in the right direction of love and likeness to Jesus.
The cost of flights: A ballpark figure only and were calculated using, in most instances, the most direct flight to/from home port then subsequent internal flights using low to average economy class fares. Not all travel legs and not all workers had flight costs due to travelling partly or exclusively by car.
There would be additional costs such as travel insurance, stopovers, domestic flights in home country etc.
Many may also have onward flights and costs for further convention routes, costs of which are impossible to calculate. This was an estimate of the AUS/NZ component only, then home again.
How would we administrate and accomplish the distribution of funds for mental health care and psychological support, amongst a group so broad and so broken?
That would be step two – we’ve missed step one.
In the interest of transparency, please disseminate widely, for open respectful discussion and for quiet personal honest self-examination and reflection.
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Cough!
We spent how much on flying these individuals to go to the other side of the earth for these speaker engagements? I am sure the Aussies will be glad and thankful afterwards that they were not the ones coughing up these plane tickets.
Cough one more time for me please? I told you the first time don’t clench when you cough!
Did anyone know that the word cough is not in the bible? Or is it there, and the church masters do not perceive yet? Maybe the Greek needed a few words to explain it. The body needs to cough at times so to me it has spiritual significance. How stubborn can this cough be in the church organization?
I will go out on the deck now and pace a bit more, and smoke a few more cigarettes. Maybe cough a bit more. Don’t tell anyone I smoke, okay? Reminds me of my oldest son at Seagrave convention one year many years ago. He was being a bit rowdy with another boy, and the parents apparently were not managing things properly. So the overseer wrote a note to each of the boys. And had a chat with me about it. I accepted that I was not likely doing my job. The one boy read the note and hasn’t gone to meetings for years. My boy rolled the note up (likely with something inside) and smoked it without reading it. There must have been good stuff in it because he loves the meetings and loves the friends…and the workers…the ones not smoking dope that is. The spiritual kind of dope.
That would be a great step in the right direction! Help for the poor souls who’s lives have been ruined for their life time.
Why do people prioritize other things — international travel, conventions and special meetings, carrying on as if things are “normal” — instead of stopping and helping wounded and injured people out of the ditch where they’ve been left by abusers?
This seems to be a common tendency of human beings who can’t face reality and responsibility, maybe as a result of their own weakness and cowardice and lack of character, and who may be webbed up in unhealthy co-dependent relationships.
Yet another example from this recent article about Alice Munro, the famous Canadian author who remained married to a pedophile who abused her own daughter.
In her pioneering study, “Father-Daughter Incest” (1981), the American psychiatrist Judith Lewis Herman spoke to 40 women who were sexually abused by their fathers or stepfathers. “Those daughters who did confide in their mothers were uniformly disappointed in their mother’s responses,” Herman writes.
“Most of the mothers, even when made aware of the situation, were unwilling or unable to defend their daughters. They were too frightened or too dependent upon their husbands to risk a confrontation. Either they refused to believe their daughters, or they believed them but took no action. They made it clear to their daughters that their fathers came first and that, if necessary, the daughters would have to be sacrificed.”
Only three of the mothers decided to leave their abusive husbands, though in each case the women soon returned. They found life without them “too hard to bear.”
“What Alice Munro Knew
The Nobel-winning author’s husband was a pedophile who targeted her daughter and other children. Why did she stay silent?”
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/08/magazine/alice-munro-andrea-skinner-abuse.html
@observer. Do you honestly believe if we all stop using money to lead normal lives and instead give all our money to victims it will make everything just fine for them. What they need is love and understanding and money is no substitute and can’t buy it. Your study you mention just points out that the very family members that should first offer that love and understanding are unfortunately the biggest part of the problem. At least in 30% of all cases, and the number is probably much higher.
Hi @Amen, let me try to make my point more clearly.
First, you’re absolutely right that survivors need love and understanding. Horribly, many survivors both in and out of our fellowship group haven’t been given such care even from those who should be closest to them, as you point out. Money can’t buy love and understanding, but it can be some help because it can pay for good-quality therapy, which doesn’t “make everything just fine” but in many cases does genuinely help survivors of trauma.
The main point of the original post above, if I understand rightly, is that some people, presumably senior workers who have “authority,” are choosing to spend substantial sums of money on continuing “conventions as usual” including a lot of international travel, rather than using those funds to support therapy for survivors who have been harmed by the bad actions and decisions of some of those same people in “authority.”
Both in the Bible, and in many traditional and modern societies and justice systems, there is the idea that if you’ve harmed someone, you should try to make amends. Just saying or writing, “I’m sorry,” doesn’t mean much if your subsequent actions don’t reflect your repentance. Jesus tells us to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). Zacchaeus said, “If I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount,” and he received Jesus’ approval (Luke 19: 8-9).
Using money to help someone isn’t the only way to show repentance, but in this case it would be one suitable PART of showing repentance.
The bigger question that I was trying to address in my post just above is, WHY don’t some people truly repent, produce fruit in keeping with repentance, help survivors out of the ditch, show love and understanding, help with therapy costs, etc? In the study cited, the people who didn’t help were mothers who stayed married to men who sexually abused their daughters. How can we understand such horror? Were these women so psychologically or economically dependent on their husbands that they were willing to sacrifice their daughters? Maybe so.
Are the workers and others in our church who don’t help survivors so dependent, psychologically or otherwise, on “the system” that they are willing to sacrifice children and survivors? Maybe so.
This issue is also touched on in a panel interview of friends who were life-long participants in our church until very recently, in this new video from David Alink’s series, from around minute 23:35 to 28:15. They talk about how control and manipulation can prevent people from repenting and taking responsibility.
Sorry, it looks like the website isn’t allowing me to embed links just now.
To see the video mentioned in my post just above, you can search for “David Alink youtube”, click on the Videos tab, then click on the “Panel of Friends part 2” video.
@observer. Thanks much for clarifying your thoughts. I appreciate your efforts. You ask some good questions about why do some not repent or show the marks of repentance? Equally frustrating is why do they do the evil deeds in the first place. Glad we don’t always know the hearts of others. The questions raised about how others priorities their spendings is an interesting exercise in frustration. I often wonder why we so often feel we know better how others spend their money and their time. Makes me think of Judas telling the woman how she should have sold the oil and given it to the poor. Most of us believe that ultimately Gods will will be done. He wies ill open His truths to others or He will close them. It is His work. What experiences we go through as He tries to work with us are quite different. He knows what is best. . You mention the benefits of good therapy. I don’t doubt that some have been helped by therapy. I personally know a family that was ruined by therapy. I also know of so many who have been helped by love and understanding. Not from the one who caused the problem but by those who just loved them and cared for them. I believe many have been helped by what God has spoken to them and through others at lirrle meetings, special meetings and conventions. And yes sometimes that help has come from those who have traveled a great distance. God knows the details. I certainly don’t know.
What I am wondering is why the directors of the various organizations of peoples are starting to play the victim card in earnest. What do they think? That there is some grand conspiracy in the world to defrock them?
Is the bus driving itself right now?
Maybe time to put our money where our mouth is? …after so much talk over the years about the root of the evil of all the other churches was the money?
Those blamed airlines. Crooked bunch!
I am sorry. Can someone remind me why workers fly around the world?
People are getting tired of my stories and I think I have told this story before. When I was 17 I worked on a pig farm. The farmer was a good guy. Him and his wife never had children – he had jumped out of the haymow when he was a teen and landed straight on the handle of a pitch fork.
Anyway, we would always talk about the farm news coming over CBC or one thing and another while we ate lunch. One day we got to talking in a civilized manner (he was the one signing my paycheck remember) about religion, and key points of why one was better than the other. Don’t ever remember to getting into any ‘best’ discussions. He belonged to United or something. Can’t remember exactly. One of those high flyers anyway. Naturally one of my key points which he already knew (because my uncle was his neighbor over the next concession) was that we never took up a collection. We might call it a KPI in our day – Key Performance Indicator. My boss George also had gone to senior school with my uncle Carson Cowan who was overseer. And George knew jargon like overseer and such. So he says to me, “So how does Carson fly around the world when you don’t take up a collection?”
Some things I just could not explain adequately when I was 17. But I think I remember using the word ‘well’ in my response. Hooray for the wells of salvation. Especially when it dawns on you there is more to you own story that you have not yet discovered. “Well George, it goes like this…..”
Good ole George. And Virgy his wife as everyone called her. They never ever hopped on a plane, but they died broke anyway. Don’t think I told you about George having three lives. When he was a little boy, he fell down a well. It took a while to get him out I understand. And his third brush was a couple years before I started working for him. He had just filled his little Ford Ferguson tractor up with gas. Reached in to turn the engine on not realizing it was in gear. I am guessing the tread marks on him from groin to head was the easy part to wash off and heal from. Points of realization, eh? Some early, some too late. He likely had some choice words for the tractor, but likely got over blaming the machine. The tractor eventually ran up against something solid, grunting and snorting away, pawing the earth until it either stalled or ran out of gas. It sat in a shed for the couple years until I started working for him. He said the engine was seized now from sitting but I was welcome to give it a go if I wanted. He chuckled a bit when I got it going. Thinking back, maybe I misunderstood what the chuckle meant.
Does this ministry that we all loved and cared about and provided for really believe deep down in their hearts that nothing is going on? Or do they really feel they need to employ this level of guile to make the organization look like a virgin? Oh mother Mary we had so much to say about those other hoodlum religions that were bonkers.
As Amen clearly points out and I fully agree with him – what many of these victims likely need is some love and some care. A little attention to their plight. Just to know that someone cares and someone will listen to them and believe them. Why is it so difficult for this church organization to believe? Why is this ministry putting on that this privilege to show they care really belongs to someone else? But that is fine. There is meaning in all things. I get a sense that the parent, the father, the father we all called delinquent has decided that 2000 years has been enough time to let things ripen enough. He provided a revelation in 2020 during covid, but yet many did not hear the message. He then provided another revelation in March 2023, and then the people really began to harden their hearts in earnest. They were still smarting from the pin prick of the covid vaccine, not realizing there was a message to be received. I am so glad that governance in the first world is outlawing pin pricks and paper cuts. Those things can hurt soooooo much. Nasty things. Let’s make regulation to make sure no one suffers from pin pricks and paper cuts. And those bruises of ego; let’s get them outlawed. Then the spirit of Bruer was exhumed and great indignation was swirled about on a dead man for about an hour. But the vinedressers said in their hearts….
Does this ministry really have this much faith in the ministry? In itself? Faith that the organization has got everything in hand because the father is with the organization and the father has everything in hand? Go ahead back up!? While the ministry jets around the world, saying the victims are the parent’s problem, I perceive the True Parent does not see the victims as a problem at all. He saw the ones that would come away having been bruised and knew they would have faith in Him. Many maybe a little undecided where to turn fully just yet, but their faith is increasing around the world. Because someone is beginning to open the doors of the prisons for them.
Does this jet-setting ministry really deep down believe they are going to-and-fro bringing and teaching Christ to lost souls? I believe they are partially right. The part of who they are preaching to.
Sorry friends and workers. I do apologize for generalizing a wee bit. Not a tad, but a wee. But I am being shown nothing that indicates the plane is flying both east and west at the same time. I have wondered in myself a few times of how I could fly across the international date line about six times in a row so I could get six days of my life back. It seems all things are possible according to religious enterprise. And right now, I believe a third charm is possible. Maybe not so lucky of a charm possibly, but the angels have been given the keys to pandora’s box it seems. Maybe the teachers should have spent more time on the subject of angels!?
Do I have this right? That there was about 2000 years between Noah and Abraham, about another two thousand years from Abraham to Jesus, and about…wha you say?…about another 2000 years to my day? …and your day? Please fasten your seatbelts. Flight crew return to your seats.
I detect there may be some flight risks around the globe. People flying to the Dead Sea in an attempt to bury the unfolding scrolls of the story of the victims. Otherwise, go with Out of sight, out of mind as it says in Jazzeriah’s writing somewhere. Be careful though – he may have been one of the false prophets.
Hi Mark . As you well know I am too old to fully understand the complexities of these things, but I wonder if you could enlighten me on this international travel quagmire. Seems like we read of Paul and a bunch of his companions making three international travels that took months from his schedule. I have no idea what those travels cost in relative terms to jumping into a jet today to fly around. Perhaps it was cheaper? In that day because he could just stay with friends along the way? Oh I forgot that is verbotum, to stay in others homes. Anyway perhaps you would know the relative costs. Maybe a wrong question since CSA was in heard of in that day and time.
Hi Amen. Before I begin my explanation of how I process this concern, let me say I do appreciate your tenacity and good hearted nature. I likely seem to you like someone that just fell out of a boxcar, but you are still willing to talk to me. For that I am grateful. If you no longer had a soft spot for the victims and wanted to get on with life, likely you would not be willing to deal with me…or read and comment on Wings for Truth.
So on this question about Paul and his international travel. I do believe Paul was a good guy, but I no longer follow him. I do appreciate what he wrote in his letters and there is a lot of good material to glean there. Things like we can be outfitted to the nines with faith but if we don’t have any charity, we are as sounding brass or a tinkling symbol. Sure, his writing is Christ like, but he was not the Christ. His writing was inspired by God, but he was not God. He had a holy kind of spirit, but he was not the Holy Spirit. A little chip showed up on his shoulders now and then in his writing, but who doesn’t like chips?
So as March 2023 came into full bloom, and spring became summer and summer became autumn, I began to realize that people in the church were arguing about what Paul said. Paul said this and Paul said that. What I was hearing was things similar to “According to Paul you idiot……”. Really stellar discussion was flowing like “there is no CSA mentioned in the bible, soooo…….”
So one of my questions that I asked in the privacy of my own heart was why the Roman priests felt that when they put the bible together, why was it so important to them to include Paul’s writings. Afterall, Paul lived about 70 years or so in a round-numbers kind of way after Jesus death. In his later years he had one foot in Rome and no doubt had a little toe hold there. As the old saying goes, ‘When Paul is in Rome, do as the Paulians’. Or maybe I have that old saying wrong. Maybe it is “When in Rome, do as the Romans”. Whatever. I am getting old you know and things don’t always come out right. Not as old as you Amen as we have talked before, but I seem to be catching up to you. At one time I was only half as old as you, but closing the gap. I was born in ’62 and now I am 62. Now hold old am I? I think I remember I failed grade three math about three times, so agility in numerology is not my forte.
Anyway, moving on about the workers staying in my home. To me it is not verboten and I welcome their gesture of good will that they would stay at my house. (I suppose I will expect deh keep hands in poken and no finger pokin nor mitten grabben). I have fed them and housed them in the past and they have been a help to me. They have been good to me and for me. In eastern Canada, in Australia, in South Africa they listened to my stupid story. They have stood beside me in my darkest hours and did not forsake me when my life and the life of my family went in the sh1tt3r. And I was responsible. It truly was my selfish fault. By God’s grace, he gave me the power to press the flush lever. But what the flip made me special in their eyes?
So this is my question. Why was I so special but conversely the ministry has not had time of day for the victims? Do we not all have the privilege of time while it is day? Frig! Can we not stuff our pride and enterprise assurances in our panties and offer up a buck? A buck of the workers hard earned cash to help a victim? Why oh why do we have to so lavish our praises on Buck Almighty? Do they think the dollar will sit on the throne for ever? It’s loonie tunes to think that people are thinking the interest is going to increase in the spiritual commerce of TwobyTwo Corpse if they don’t give a damned farthing about the bottom line. What profit will it be if we gain the whole world by frequent flyer points if we refuse our Savior? Frig this ministry seems not to understand the bottom line of the gospel. How can they not see, the bottom line are the victims? I suggest they study the balance sheet and see they are found wanting. Want want want…frig they are stubborn wanters.
What can I say? I suppose I can say what I just said. All the tea in China becomes worthless if the water gets bitter. Ya I am bitter in a sense if you want to call it that. And maybe the victims are bitter too. And this bitterness has been introduced to the rivers of man’s gospel, in the 2×2 church as of the revelation in March 2023. And man’s gospel of spiritual commerce in turn is spouting this bitterness to their followers. I have no confidence, the angel of the everlasting gospel has any interest in it any longer.
Ya. Read about Paul’s experience of shipwreck. No one needed to perish. His words were that no one needed to perish. But I question where the friggin’ follower’s need is. The ship of fellows went down on the rocks. He told them in so many words to grab hold of the flotsam and they need not perish. He had a vision. My vision is, this ministry is calling the victims as but flotsam. Where the frig are the leaders? I know they are there, but why in heaven’s name are they choosing to stay out of sight? It may not be the right time to cower and come up with all kinds of rational logical excuses to justify the ideology of Paul somehow protecting the children. Am I real you ask? I just pinched myself. Yep. It is true. Maybe the only true part of me. Who knows?
@mark. I am so glad that you can say,Anyway, moving on about the workers staying in my home. To me it is not verboten and I welcome their gesture of good will that they would stay at my house. (I suppose I will expect deh keep hands in poken and no finger pokin nor mitten grabben). I have fed them and housed them in the past and they have been a help to me. They have been good to me and for me. Because that has certainly been our experience, and as far as I know the experience of most of the friends I know. But then you ask the question of why were you so special but the workers don’t reach out to the victims. Not sure I can properly address that question since it is so contrary to my experience and to yours. They have reached out even when times were tough, and even when we had some chips like you say. And yes this is from workers with chips like Paul and Peter and all the others had. Some come to us like they were angels sent for our help and some were sent with lots of chips, but each came with a message from and about the only one who was perfect. I get the strong impression that most people that are writing on this site have a very wide definition of those who they feel are victims. And perhaps that is part of our problem in how we perceive that others do or do not reach out to victims. As you describe you were a victim of a family problem, others are victims of sexual abuse CSA, then we have those who consider themselves victims of spiritual abuse and the list goes on and on. Throughout the years, since I first heard of this fellowship, periodically some who we were in fellowship with have departed, usually because of there own lusts of the flesh, but I know of no cases where they were immediately abandoned by friends or workers. But for some despite the love and care offered they continued to go their own way. Fortunately many were brought back, and the process continues . As I have said in the past, I have no direct knowledge of cases of CSA or sexual abuse so I can offer no help in those cases. Thanks for your care and understanding.
thank you for the reply Amen. I do appreciate it.
Let me clarify. I have not been a victim. Maybe tempted to feel that way at times, but I forsook the tempter. There were times when things seemed stacked against me, but I worked through those times. I know what it feels like to sit in a mining giant’s boardroom in South Africa as a pineapple was slowly and meticulously shoved up my butt and told to go away and chew on and figure out what I was going to do with the pineapple. I guarantee you, they did not give me 20 months to think about it. Besides, a festering pineapple up there didn’t feel like a good plan to me either. And I have mistreated people. And there are people that do not trust me for good reason. I betrayed their trust. In other words, I blew it. And I have misunderstood people, and they have misunderstood me. It is what it is. All I have is now/today to make a difference. The past is gone. But I can try to make past wrongs right. And if there were things in my past that I had everything in my power to make right with another and failed to try in the spirit of meekness, then maybe that will not be good when tomorrow comes for me. That is if I can get to tomorrow – some people say we can never get there. But maybe it just takes some vision. If I could take the blame for the misdeeds and coverups in the church organization towards one or two or 500 or 10,000 victims I would, if it would help them take a step forward. Maybe the first step would be in them letting that blame go on my shoulders. I think someone has offered it before me though. But what I can do is open the door of the prison for them the best I can.
But as far as these things that are revealed in the church, there is criminal activity in the organization according to the land’s definition of criminal. These things are stated in the laws of our lands. The law and justice system of the land will work it’s way though that. And I hope people have stopped praying in meeting that they are so thankful there is freedom in our nations to worship. This kind of prayer is so full of misunderstanding and lack of spiritual comprehension at this time, it is amazing. And the people have stated in their actions, the laws of the land do not matter to them. That understanding must come out of the bible somewhere. And prayers for the leaders of the nations, that kind of comes out of the bible somewhere so fair enough. But here is my question about praying about the free nations and the leaders thereof. Why salute with the one hand, and flip the bird with the other? And for anyone not familiar with the term, flipping the bird means hearty employment of the middle finger. Are there some wires crossed about midway between the right hand and the left? I am confident there are others in the land that have not argued yet with the people. And they will likely have no time and inclination to do any begging to differ on points of scripture in that day. I believe we are going into a time when the golden sneakers and army boots of religious and sundry enterprise will morph into beggar’s boots. Because as I see it, the beggars sandals are turning into army boots relatively quickly.
My point Amen on the flying around the world thing. It is obvious, the victims (I mean the true ones) are not being supported financially for therapy and the organization is spending a lot on their voyeuristic travels instead. The ships that left Ireland with the workers the turn of last century to venture to lands unknown, with hardly a scrap in their pockets, that was international travel that needed faith. A boat load of it. It does something inside me to think of that faith. It makes me shiver in respect. The limit on faith now in our day is the hope that the airlines do not start charging for carry-on baggage. And I have hopped enough flights to see society has a lot of baggage these last few years. They may have to check the carrion they have under their arm. The feeling in this ministry for the need to fly around the world in what they have been asked to do, beggars belief. Flying to the ends of the earth to mix with their congregants while there is likely tens of thousands if not millions within a day’s drive of where they boarded the jet that they had no inclination or desire to talk to. Too ‘messy’ for them it seems.
And speaking of counselling and therapy Amen. I do not discount in any way the ability of professional people in helping people work through the building blocks of their misery to bring them up to surface and set their feet on solid ground again. I do hear you about sometimes therapy accomplishing little. It reminds me of 30 years or so ago when our family doctor insisted that my wife and I could come to marriage counselling sessions in his office. He said he had the tickets. I thought they were both trying to tear me up, and likely for good reason. But I remember to this day one comment I made early in the sessions, and maybe this set me on the defensive. I said to them, ‘here we are sitting before a man to fix our marital problems, when we have the opportunity to sit before the greatest counsellor of all the earth’. So my experience tells me (since we were still going to counselling about 8 years later and still burning the rubber off the wheels going nowhere) that sometimes couples just need to get out of each other’s face. Some things cannot be fixed when people are involved. Go away and be alone in the desert and kick over some rocks and scribble in the sand and look up at the sky a bit. Just keep riding Gooseberry Mesa or Moab. The common denominator of religious affiliation, if that is the only common denominator in a relationship, will not make a marriage work no matter how much one lies to themselves. It might be an ideology, but a person would need to be the Christ to do it. Calling oneself Jesus to force it to work…well evidently we have been shown since March 2023 that does not work out so well.
And circling back to the nations and leaders thereof. There would come a time when the kings that had been with the program for millennia would shift to a number of new kings that would bring the house down in a concerted effort. The houses that insisted in one manner or another to take advantage of people. Fair enough, most people it seems need to be told what to think and how to think. Could it be, there are some institutions that spiritually monetized this need in people and the opportunities went from one thing to the next? Rhetorical question. But I say, teach a man or woman to think for themselves, and search for themselves…and they can feed themselves for a life time – the well springs up. ‘Tell’ them how to think, and they come back on the next Wednesday night or Sunday and need to be told again…and they need to keep coming back and drawing from the wells that will never satisfy for any length of time. It is what it is.
But as I see it, the horns have begun to blow. It is an uncertain sound to people, and many getting their religious noise cancelling headsets out to drown out the uncertain sound. Gotta get back to the video game and music the gamer engineers called Life, Life, Abundant Life. Addiction comes in many forms. As Bill H said to me one time after Sunday a.m. meeting about my two boys that went to his meeting, my two boys that smoked cigarettes (and I had not yet started to smoke) …he said, “when it get’s hold of a man……” I honestly wish that Bill was still able…because that man fought in the trenches of life as far as I can understand. He may not have been perfect, but he cared for my boys and my boys respected him. And I am confident the friends and workers of that province would have been witnessing a grumpy old man regarding this situation in the church if he knew and was able.
And why did I foolishly start smoking you may ask Amen? I had two boys that smoked, and how could I continue to ask them to quit that which I despised, unless I walked a mile in their shoes. Yes Amen you would be right in thinking I fell out of a boxcar. I had no time to wait for the train to Morrow to reach destination. I had found I was likely in the boxcar for a reason. The reason being, I wanted to be better than someone else. Shave my head now and sit in sackcloth beside the tracks. Lick my own wounds, or befriend a stray dog that is wanting and willing to lick them for me. I could have left it to a more convenient day. There will always come a time when the disadvantaged have been hardened and are battle ready. And in that day, according to what is written in the bible somewhere in just so many words, the advantaged will say, “Duh, what just hit me!” “Where did that come from?” “Someone should have warned me!” Doo dah, doo dah. Camptown ladies sing dis song, doo dah, doo dah…
The revolving door of history has reached our own backyards, but on a global scale this time. The perception and definition and feeling of unity in Babylon may be getting turned on it’s ear. The Jetson ministry may think and say they are watching, but nah. Not really. They are caught up in the mudslide. Weeeeeeeee! Weeeeeeeee is a plural personal pronoun. And plural personal pronouns will not get interviewed for any jobs in heaven. As far as I can understand. I could be wrong. Not often I am right, but this time I could be wrong.
Funny thing. Last night I told myself and wrote that I had run outta steam on writing about this freight train with Casey at the controls. Some songs and hymns have a certain clip to them. All for our learning and benefit. And this old bird gets up this morning and I get the message to sing my mournful song again.
The hands are still on the throttles for some very interesting reasons. I am not expecting to hear any screeching of the train wheels. Clickety-clack, clickety-clack, clickety-clack. Put a little accelerando on the measure. Get through this thing and shorten the timing. Hold that note though – but just until the Conductor signals to break…then make a rest. No rest for the wicked here in my boots. I totally expect someone will be made willing to unlace them and take them off for me. I do not expect them to be washing my feet while they are so seriously tied up and so seriously occupied in burning the boots. And getting it on with their life. Their very own life.
Good chat Amen. I feel you feel something. Let the feeling grow. Let God provide the increase. It’s in the letting that most men and women will miss because they have no time for such. Far flung places are calling them.
After reading your latest, Mark, I will try to express my thoughts on just a few points you brought up. I appreciate your openness about mistakes you feel you have made. We all have made lots of mistakes but like you said there is one who has paid the price. I was a little disappointed when you then went on to talking about the criminal things some have done.i am sure that you know that there can be forgiveness by God for the worst criminal act as well as the little white lie. I know you have read so often about no liar being in heaven. Of course to conquer anything contrary to God we have to let in the overcomer and He will conquer us. I love the last verse of that hymn that speaks of being a conquered. More stern will grow the conflict as nears our Kings return. And they alone can face it who this great lesson learn, that from them God asks nothing but to unlatch the door, admitting Him who through them will conquer ever more. You mentioned your confidence in good therapy to put people back on their feet. I feel that letting in the overcomer is a better step, and will lead them to a whole different picture of themselves and others. Thanks for your thoughts.
thank you Amen. I appreciate your spirit and words of kindness. I am not doing so well on that front I know.
sorry Amen…I hit on the wrong reply button when I was replying to you under our comment thread…so I will add another comment under mine but it still follows our thread. My thought this morning is that the forgiveness thing will have to work it’s way through the system. Not for me to try to digest. And pardons do seem like an interesting subject to me. Kinda getting the sense they need to come from the top rung. But as you say, I need to unlatch the door to God so that I can discuss with Him about these matters for my own life. Let in the Overcomer and let Him conquer me. I no longer have much inner conflict on the matter. The matter of sadness within I will take as an answer to a prayer that I could bear some burden of the oppressed. I know I could never understand their burden, but know from what I read in the bible that I could help them in some small measure to help them carry it. Sometimes it depresses me (like full on yesterday), but I get this message to my heart that I did ask for the understanding.
Not sure whether you read much outside the bible Amen, but I read a book one time called Man’s Search for Meaning. About a Jewish man that spent years in the gulag during WWII. The basic gist of it that sticks with me through the years is that there were German guards that would sneak him some bread, and conversely there were those of his own countrymen that had sided with the Gestapo within the prison and would beat Frankl (the author) so that their own life could be more comfortable. Through the process in his own heart and mind of what he went through, he found purpose. And taking words from Wikipedia about the book, “identifying a purpose to each person’s life through one of three ways: the completion of tasks, caring for another person, or finding meaning by facing suffering with dignity.” Need I say who found the meaning. As time goes on, I keep striking off from the list of duties I felt beneath me. Someone might have promised me an eternal rose garden in their good meaning, but not sure the true meaning is for me to plant a rose garden for myself in the dash between the dates on my tombstone. We religious people have a lot of notions about what God’s will is for our life. I would sooner show I walk naked now, then wait for an Angel to point it out to me later.
Yes Mark, I have read a few books, probably much less than you. One of the most fascinating was Jews, God and History, (I think). As the title implies it goes through the 4000 year history of the Jews. Most of it as a dispersed people populating other nations. The fascinating part is how even in that situation God seemed to still be with them. The book points out time after time in these foreign nations it was a Jew who rose up to be their leader. More closely to home, a Jew married into the Acoma Indian tribe and rose up to be their leader. I attended a meeting that a Jewish Rabbi had in Los Alamos. He pointed out that every high position at the local Laboratory was headed up by a Jew, mostly because quantum physics was taught almost exclusively by the Jews. He was disappointed in his research of these Jews because they were all secular Jews. None were practicing Jews. It is interesting how God continues to work with His people even when some of us are so slow to learn His ways, but thankfully He is very patient . It will be most interesting when the Jews return to the fold. Perhaps they are just waiting on us gentiles to get with it.
We got told at the Louisville KY special meeting yesterday, we are required to forgive even when there is no repentance. Why because Jesus washed Judas feet before he betrayed Christ. One thing I have realized is while I may have to forgive, I DO NOT have to associated with those who do not take responsibility and repent. No one is worth my soul being lost. So I have prayed hard God takes away my ill feelings toward those who have hurt us and give me inner peace. Let go and receive peace. If you are in a positive to hold others accountable, take a stand, but if you are like us, no meeting, no authority, no wealth, you still have your relationship with God and that is EVERYTHING. We were told during COVID, our alone time with our families and God was to draw us closer to him. If that means we are forced back into that type of isolation, Count Your Blessings. There is a theory about the “Bad Dog Syndrome”. In every group there is a problem. When the problem is removed, another becomes the problem and so on. Once all the “good people” are driven from “the truth”, then the evil ones can turn on each other and destroy themselves. There are many cities in the U.S. where entire meetings are leaving and starting up Mtgs without the workers blessings. They continue to have mtg just as before, but some are going so far as to not use the hymn book because most of the songs were written by either predators or those who covered up predators. (This part is rumor as I have no proof regarding the hymn book). It is hard to reconcile not having fellowship when the bible talks about not forsaking fellowship. Heb 10:25. But it also talks about the Spirit will be where 2 or 3 are met together. Mat 18:20. We have been told here in KY that the reason people are leaving God’s family is because they want to join false religions for the sake of being entertained. It is the most ridiculous story I’ve heard. We also heard at the meeting yesterday that we are headed to hell if we leave God’s family. Using fear to keep people IN is NOT according to Jesus.
The heavy question for us is why are the “GOOD” workers tolerating the “EVIL” workers? Given the number of worker worshippers here in KY, I guess it makes sense to leave the tares to grow with the wheat. BUT and more importantly, how many victims are enough before we remove a tare?
To all our “good friends” please remember you have the right to say NO. And PLEASE sift like sand every word they preach as there are lies mixed with gold. A brother worker we knew in another state always said at the end of a gospel meeting, “don’t take my word for it, read it for yourself.”
Yes forgiveness and fellowship are very different things. Even God has no fellowship with the unrepentant.
Fiesty Mom – Some very good letters you have written to the church at Twobytwoville.
Most in the church will not read the letters though because they think Fiesty Mom is not an apropos name for a prophet. To each their own beliefs.
you mention gold in your last verse Fiesty Mom. I like these verses that mentions gold.
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
If any in this church, or any of the thousands of Christian churches…if they want to be carrying their grand counsel in their right hand while they try to squeeze their bloated and fattened bodies through the straight gate, puffied up by continual religious grazing – they might want to secretly start communing with the Grand Counsel to see if they will fit into the culture on the other side. The first question that may be from the other side is, what is that you sneak in your right hand, and what is that you have hid and stuffed in your forehead?
And it may not be the right time in history to be arguing what the truth is. Only my opinion. The light is beginning to blindside in earnest, those that preferred laboring under the cover of darkness. There are still friends calling this religion The Truth. I don’t get it. The victims are being released from their hell and are mounting their horses with stings from their past. There is hope for everyone, but charity cannot be bypassed in the matter. As I see it. Don’t take my word for it – search it out yourself.
To Fiesty Mom – I addressed this to you, but I know you have the wherewithal to understand, and the strong shoulders to bear it.
And most religious adherents will not likely know, the seven churches mentioned are in modern day Turkey. My question is, why are most church goers not giving a rat’s latter day passing any regard for their Candle? Yes, this church might be very special or unique like we all thought…in a sense. Those that will be first will be last, and those that are last will be first. But my suggestion to all the people is to start making First things first. Just a suggestion. It began to dawn on me, doubling down on my chin and trying to push my way through the narrow gate ahead of the victims was going to give me a squeeze.
And speaking of squeezing, when I was maybe 10 or 11 or thereabouts, I was riding my bike through town one day and saw my grandfather’s car parked on the side of the road by a construction site. I rode up to my grandfather with his car door open and him leaning on it, his chin quivering, and tears streaming down his face, staring ahead and he noticed not my presence. Later that day, my mother told me my uncle, my grandfather’s son, had a trench cave in on him. Some things never leave a boy that becomes a man – my grandfather weeping that his son would make it through. Sometimes the eyeballs can only bear so much squeezing before something gives.