The below letter was recently sent from the MN/IA staff. The following document includes the “Statement of Purpose” and resources.
The Statement of Purpose claims that “We have found the New Testament instructions to the Lord’s people to be a perfect code of conduct, if faithfully applied.”
WINGS is not aware of any New Testament instructions specifically about prevention of, or responding to, child sexual abuse. The workers and overseers history of failure to prevent, or respond properly to Child Sexual Abuse, suggests that application of man’s interpretation of selected bible verses is not an adequate basis for dealing with Child Sexual Abuse.
The overseer of this region is Titus Lehman.
Dear Iowa and Minnesota friends,
We appreciated our convention season again this year. The helpers who were sent brought us bread for our souls and it was special to have time together. We are encouraged again to sow the seed and do what we can in our fields. We appreciate everyone who was a part of our conventions, including those who were not able for whatever reason, and listened on the conference call. We keep in our hearts those who chose not to attend. We respect your choice knowing the reasons vary greatly. We do care about you all!
Most of you have received the new workers list by now. Many of us are headed to new areas of labor and are looking forward to getting gospel meetings going again and getting acquainted with new people and places. We are glad for open homes and we also respect any who have reservations about who enters their homes. Please, feel free to help us know how you feel about having company.
LaVerna has moved into an apartment in Pella and has been busy reaching out to the folks who are her new neighbors there. We certainly wish her the best. It’s a big adjustment, no doubt.
David leaves November 18th and returns February 18th for conventions in India, Bangladesh, Dubai, and a few other spots. We will enjoy following along. Dean and Kyle are going to Manitoba/Saskatchewan for the special meeting rounds. They will be away from the end of November through December.
Much time and effort has been spent searching out, reviewing, and exploring what our staff and fellowship’s responsibility is in regards to CSA/SA. Thank you for your patience in this process.
In May of 2023 a policy was written for immediate needs. It helped us at the time with situations which arose. Since then we realize it just doesn’t apply to and cover every situation. We have chosen to discontinue its use and dependence on it.
Last year a group of workers and friends explored the possibility of a policy for our fellowship. We contracted with the GRACE group, which has been helpful for other organizations. They provided a policy draft in December. After reviewing this draft, we found it did not meet the needs of or rightly represent our fellowship. Above all, with prayerful consideration, it was clear the Lord was not giving peace with these efforts. In respect to God, we have discontinued working with GRACE group for policy development. The time spent with them was not wasted as we learned much helpful information about these subjects.
All of us are more educated, aware of the impact of CSA, and alert to inappropriate behavior. It is imperative to move forward in that understanding. We would like to share our simple statement of purpose. It is attached to this email. Also attached is a document with resources and reporting information.
The Minnesota and Iowa Staff
The following policy was initially drafted by GRACE, and modified through a review process that included approximately 50 volunteers, as well as 4 workers (Titus Lehman, John Simons, Marla Freesemann, and Roy Williams).
A decision was then made by ministry leadership to abandon the policy.
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I, for one, agree that any who need more guidance than is already clearly given in New Testament teachings to lead a crime-free life, is going to be guided more positively by something written today in by well-intentioned people.
No one believes CSA or SA is legal or permissible under the current law of the land, U.S. or Canada.
While another set of written rules may provide some guidance to those with deficient reading or comprehension abilities, I doubt a new written policy would change or halt evil intentions, OR actions.
Our qualified & elected political leaders introduce and enact a plethora of new laws and guidelines annually and crimes still occur. To the point we as a society require educated, licensed, professional attorneys to help interpret and enforce them.
While he input, invested time and effort of good people has been most helpful and encouraging in raising the awareness of CSA and its damage to lives, it will not change human nature. So far it hasn’t since time began. Or at least since Cain murdered Abel.
I’m sorry for any unintended offense to those who are proponents of more written rules. (I recognize there are many)
I believe they would be redundant and solve nothing.
And COULD risk creating a false sense of security.
The policies are not meant to make evil people do better. That was never the intent. The policies were meant to provide appropriate guidance on how to deal with the situation in a victim, not perp, centric manner. The issue they were rejected over is removing a perp from continuing to gather in homes with their victim demographic. As a former sister worker stated, remove perps from the ministry and you remove the ministry. That is the crux of the issue.
Codified, accepted, and published policies are not about changing human nature. They are not about providing guidance to people with “deficient reading or comprehension abilities”.
They are about making it clear that the leadership has a responsibility to the members of the organization. They are about acknowledging that the leadership is accountable to the members. They are about acknowledging the power that the members have to demand justice for grievous acts of negligence and injury on the part of the leadership.
Why are policies required? Because trusting these issues to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and those leadership individuals who might be sensitive to such guidance has failed. Such guidance is either unheeded or nonexistent.
Policies will certainly not lend a sense of security — false or otherwise — to those who have been so gravely hurt. However, they will ensure that the these individuals have power to demand consequences for actions which are illegal and injurious.
You speak of the laws in place. Laws are not for the average circumstance, or for the safest circumstance. If someone is driving 55mph in an ice storm, it doesn’t matter if the legal speed limit is 70mph… if they can’t stop at a curve and they crash, they may well suffer even though they were legally below the speed limit. I suggest you research the time it takes on average in your state for a kit to get tested after a crime is reported to law. As of three years ago in my state it was 10 months, at least. The law is not present to protect one another as Christians, it’s there to prosecute offenders as criminals.
I spent a decade professing before I went in the work, I spent 8 years in the work, and I kept professing for a decade after I left the work. I can assure you that the fellowship’s leadership do not prioritize the truest interpretation of New Testament scripture, nor do they prioritize the most effective implementation of the words of Jesus regarding protecting children. They prioritize whatever it takes to call themselves “right” and “the only ones”. They gladly ignore all manner of abuse, injury, and dishonesty in any effort to excuse themselves.
There exists no crime, injury, or dishonesty which any member of ministry will not gladly justify and/or excuse. It is done for their own comfort’s sake and in the pride of their own nameless name….amen.
People who place their complete trust in other human beings REGARDLESS of the laws of the land are probably always going to be among us. We have reams of laws on the books that explicitly prohibit impaired driving, speeding, illicit drugs, prostitution, murder, CSA, forcible rape, etc. Yet they still occur. We spend billions in tax dollars to catch, prosecute and imprison perpetrators.
Yet crime still exists. The same will occur when rules are written to prohibit CSA in a fellowship. We see it happen often in other forms. There are laws in place ALREADY that criminalize those actions.
In the codified laws of the land with punishment and the bible with final judgement.
IMO, some people are looking to assign blame or kick the can down the road by printing more “rules” with the expectation CSA will go away. It won’t.
The real problem is misplaced trust. People who claim to trust in God and the teachings of His Son, have placed more faith in fellow humans than in Him. I can’t see it any other way. The “C” in CSA is for children, legally known as “minors”.
Adults responsible for “minors” have an obligation to protect them.
In nature, when a parent fails in that, the offspring is devoured or dies. Did they not follow their instincts (their inherent “rules”)?
People that are insistent on blaming the “ministry” for expectations that are beyond human abilities are simply feeding MORE false expectations. I believe they have erroneously misplaced or prioritized their trust. And become angry at themselves (or their parents or ministers)
There is adequate blame to place, among all participants. Singling out one particular segment, ie a handful of “powerful” men is simply a continuance of misplaced trust. Amen
I think your stereotyping of members of the “ministry” is repugnant and false. I hope for your sake it is an opinion and not a judgement.
We have great examples in scripture. It would do us well to emulate some , but others should definitely be avoided
What came to mind vividly is the account recorded in 2nd Samuel 13
( the account of Amnon raping Tamar). Clearly, he was the perpetrator in this evil deed; yet after raping her he made accusations against her and ordered his servant to put her out and bolt the door.
What are we seeing from many of our overseers when they are made aware of cases of abuse against individuals??
Often times they are treated as emotionally disturbed and not being trustworthy individuals
Were these overseers unable to take any warning from this event from the most valuable book we could ever lay our hands on?? Very sad indeed!!
Policies and procedures for sexual abuse aren’t implemented to prevent abuse. Nothing can prevent it, unfortunately, but there are safe practices that can reduce opportunities for offenders to offend. What enables bad actors to conduct their behavior is naivety. Education is necessary–not for those who would offend, but for those would unwittingly invite an offender into their home and for those who do not understand what should be done when abuse is made known. Of course, those who enabled abuse to occur would reject policies which places more scrutiny and personal responsibility on them to ensure it doesn’t continue. I just throw my hands up in the air at the willful ignorance going on here.
Willful ignorance by WHOM? People who misplace their trust? Pretty sure Jesus doesn’t sanction sexual abuse.
The willful ignorance of those deciding to discontinue the CSA policy, and those who agree with that decision. And if you have to ask why, maybe you’re part of the problem.
I am very much part of the “problem” if you consider another written man-made document to help or encourage adult humans to discern right from wrong when it comes to CSA and child safety.
Even knowing intelligent informed individuals participated in re-writing guidance. It is redundant.
I see more “policy” as one more crutch.
I do NOT agree with shifting ANY responsibility to any other than the legal guardian or parent of any child or minor. For their education, safety and moral or social development. When that basic responsibility begins to be forfeited or assigned to others, I can’t support it. There are too many examples of the harm caused in society today.
Sorry, but I see more excuses than value in shifting one’s own responsibility(s) to others (including fellow observant adults).
I am appalled at the number of adults who have spoken up AFTER some victim has come forward, and others collaboration of having observed the perverted behaviors or signs of it.
I see additional policy as simply passing the buck. Or attempting to. It brings no real value and allows for more unnecessary debate.
I am getting accustomed to your realism Junior. I am confident I am a “problem” in the church also.
It takes people a while to get accustomed to uncustomary realisms. All kindreds and tongues and nations have been accustomed to populism -one of the customs in this church organization. Populism has been with us a long time, and populism has a propensity to disregard a thing or two. But I think it says somewhere a time when the worlds of populism and realism would collide. Where spiritual pluralism will be revealed in no uncertain terms.
It is a long trek back to the letter A. We the people found ourselves at letter Z, and began to wonder about Y. Most people it seems are still stuck at Y, or not moved off Z. Could it be, that the pope is pondering the thought he should go back and have a visit with B? Maybe he will have a visit with Paul (C) on the way to ask Peter (B) if Jesus really meant what He said when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead people into all truth. The pope I think has a shorter journey than many of us. He will not be inclined to feel a need to have a visit with Wiley (somewhere around X) and then Luther and Calvin (somewhere around F or G or H) on the way.
So I am in agreement with you Junior. Rubbing a bit of oinkment on Y will just mask the odor of the sores for awhile. Maybe the new big guy slated in to direct health services will start having the religious physicians prescribe Balm of Gilead. I don’t think prescribing a pill for religious obeastity will cut it. It is a fair question for people to ask me what I know about trimming the fat. First thing I suppose is to put on the spiritual runners. I think it is a long way back. Fitting into Size 1 (Size Alpha) will take some time and effort and produce some sweat. But most I suppose will balk at the suggestion – ‘just give me a pill’ they might suggest. ‘Make these problem children and spiritual fetuses go away’. And the religious world hollers their spiritual edicts, not realizing that more people are buying more drones to look into the holler backyards. Just telling people up front. My back yard is a mess. But any that know me see the evidence. And my true friends still love me regardless for some reason. Using my fire pit quite a bit lately. Not trying to burn any evidence – just trying to downsize.
Any friends or workers (overseers included in that) that would like to come over some time and sit around the bonfire with me and have a cuppa hot chocolate and peer into the dancing flames and watch the logs being consumed and talk about life for a while, you are welcome. But if you come to convince me the flames aren’t real, then find some other fire pit to peer into where the flames can be unreal for you. I think there is hope for everyone. Just might have to leave Z behind, move past Y, and keep on going. I don’t think people should be offended with me in suggesting they keep on going. Afterall, it is a message we all are accustomed to. Is there any balm in Israel? I think there is. A long supply and short demand though. An unsettling uneasiness with the merchants and spiritual squatters. I am sure they will move past it for one reason or another.
I believe most people’s “problems” are in their OWN minds. If one is truly following Jesus’s instructions, problems are as prolific as many accounts I encounter in some compositions I read here and a couple other sites. Blaming someone else or “they” seems to a very common practice. Or anger bordering rage.
Strangely, neither of those emotions have EVER solved a problem for me, or anyone I know.
At least sarcasm can be funny, if appropriate.
@Junior Jones Someone builds a public playground for kids. The slides and swings aren’t properly constructed. A parent is pushing their child on a swing, one of the chains detaches due to faulty installation, the child flies off the swing, hits the ground and dies. Who failed to protect the child?
Public playgrounds literally have guidelines in place to ensure safety of children. Literally every public venue has safety standards because it is their duty to do everything possible to ensure the safety of everyone using those facilities.
Need I explain further how this works?
And the parent who placed their child in the unsafe swing? Blames the the constructor? Or the repairman who was supposed to maintain and fix it? Or the ambulance who didn’t arrive in time? Or the medical staff who failed to save the child?
It still comes back to the parent who placed the child in an unsafe place.
There are plenty of places to direct the blame, and every one who earns a part of it, deserving or not, will try to point a finger away from themselves. Or so it seems. It begins with the one the child placed their trust in. And what the one responsible for their safety in. One can try to paint reality with many colors, but it never covers the original.
WOW, J.J.; Parents are superhuman; Now? Sorry, when you are unable to read scripture as written; how are parents to know or trust this to defend their child; unless they themselves KNOW every word of scripture? Well, they cannot judge what such kind, ministers of the ‘only right way’ who are so revered. Just like the swing – or the chair we sit upon. Just how often do you examine a chair for any defect before you sit down. If you do, I feel you have a very bad problem THAT needs Therapy.
You are entitled to YOUR interpretation of the scripture. God gave even the animal kingdom gifts to protect their progeny. Some use those gifts effectively and the offspring thrive. Some don’t and experience different results. You can slice and dice it anyway you would like. But to insinuate parents are not totally responsible for the safety of their children, is placing blame where it doesn’t belong, IMO.
Save your excuses for your OWN judgement day. I personally can’t accept this one you offered. I just express my opinion, you certainly don’t have to accept MINE.
@Junior Jones. Your response is instructive and explains very well why CSA has been so rampant.
What I now understand is that if a drunk worker driving a car on a high speed highway crossed the center line to hit head on with another car where a child is killed, you would blame it on the parents for not swerving away from it fast enough. Am I right?
I think you are stretching your imagination beyond my ability to comprehend. Any responsible parent would be sure their children were properly instructed and licensed to drive a vehicle. (At least I did)
Not sure what this line of discussion has to do with CSA. Unless your version means something other than Child Sex Abuse.
Instincts like YOU are bringing into the discussion would likely be inherited from one of the parents. Or both.
@Junior Jones. This is very much about CSA.
I don’t want to pick on you but your responses suggest that you have fallen into the evangelical Christian ideology of the supremacy of parents over their children. All responsibility for anything detrimental that befalls their children falls upon the parents. This is the ideology that leads to opposition of CSA guidelines as well as opposition to many other things that benefit vulnerable children including guidelines for teachers, school lunches and public support of daycare.
These ideas are reprehensible. No doubt you are a nice person but you are buried deeply in an ideology that puts children in danger.
If you ever reach a point where you need to reconsider your ideologies, please revisit this and let’s talk. In the meantime, your ideology is dangerous to the safety of children.
I appreciate your critique, but I’m really not too familiar with ideologies. I tend to ignore them and try to focus on realism instead. I am not of the mindset that teachers should be raising parents children for them. All normal adults share some responsibility for protection of the innocent and infirm in most civilized societies. Our laws require adult guardians to assume responsibility for those considered “minors”. The NATURAL guardian will be a parent or best case, parents. This includes everything in the guidelines, you mentioned: school lunches, etc. plus a LOT more. What they are taught and exposed to: culturally, socially, morally, all the things a child needs to become a stable and productive member of society. Sometimes that may include a base of spiritual belief if a parent or guardian deems it necessary or important.
Absolving an adult guarding of any part of those responsibilities, results in dispersion of accountability and ultimately results in blaming another for one lack of accountability. Additional “guidelines” added to those basic, inherent responsibilities opens gaping holes for escape routes. At the risk of further debate, I’ll take the liberty of attaching and excerpt from an essay by James Sales that may explain my position on said subject better than my own words:
Blame transfers accountability to another; in other words, it says I am not responsible for my action. Someone else is to blame for it. Indeed, blame may be said to be the most endemic, the most pernicious, and the most destructive of all the psychological vices that beset mankind. It is the kingpin of all that is negative within us. Small wonder, then, that it wreaks such havoc. It’s also very difficult to counter.
James Sales
The Garden of Eden and Our Psychological Regression
theepochtimes.com
Watchman and Junior – do you mind if I comment here? I might end up getting in the way, but I have had many years of experience at it.
I certainly welcome any rational comment, in support or not, of any comment posted here. Specifically logical and rational comments.
I don’t spend much time on ones that are just composed of anger or blame. Neither have shown positive solutions or results in my experience. In my own personal exhibitions of either or observance of others. So for my answer, fire away. Or at Will…..🤗
I don’t know Junior. I just don’t know. I am very confused. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, there are two old guys I read about in the newspapers that are both saying that their domino is better than the other. What am I to make of it? Are they real? And it has been interesting for me to observe they are both saying the domino set that they both play in is much greater than all the other domino sets.
I personally have learned a lot from your writing and I mean it with all honesty and sincerity. I have had to take steps, one by one since March 2023, some little steps, some bigger ones. You actually have helped me understand a few things about myself. I have come to believe that understanding myself and admitting what I am is key to allowing God or the Holy Spirit to see in me that which I for years agued with Him that He was not seeing clearly. I am beginning to hold the mirror up into my own soul. But a vision in the night sky showed me that I have been given a gilded mirror, that a friend needed to get down from the rafters for me. And that friend needed another friend to hoist my friend up – the rafters were quite high. The mirror came down and the top part was clear and unobstructed. I took that to mean that part of the mirror was for me. But the bottom half was a mosaic of gilded pattern with a little mirror showing through. I took that to mean one of two things; one was that I would never be able to see fully into their heart, mind and soul – but what was in their soul would help me to reflect on what is in mine…or secondly it was meant for me to hold it caringly or gingerly or lovingly or sparingly before a friend and help them to understand what is really in their own soul.
I know you are not in favor of the demonstrative pronouns of these, they and those, but sometimes people can only go with what they have got. I personally like the they demonstrative, though I have mentioned some names in my writing. My hope is that ‘they’ would think about what I write, though I have no grand illusion of influencing the course of history and the direction things are heading.
So Junior, can you really fault/blame another man or woman for blaming another man or woman for blaming another man or woman…or child for that matter? Why does the blame have to end up at the children and the most vulnerable in this matter? You have shown me that I have no right to accuse another of accusing another of accusing another, once again ending up with a pained look on the child’s face.
One thing you have written to make me slow down in my editations and begin to recognize that I am missing the ‘m’ (maybe m for Mark) in editation. When I slow down a bit, it allows me some advantage in meditation. This one thing you write is about taking responsibility for my own actions, and it is my own misplaced trust that has fubar’d my head as I played follow-the-leader, comforting myself in knowing that millions had passed this way before. One phrase you use that has become quite meaningful to me is ‘misplaced trust’. I agree wholeheartedly that this is the root of my problem. Misplaced trust. So as I have walked and meditated on your writing, I have begun to whittle away at the names and places and the notions and buildings and organizations. But there are two names that kept popping into my head that has taken more work to carve out. And that was my good ole mom and dad. Good people, though I may only be justified in my partiality. But when I boil it all down, I see clearly what you are saying – the parents are the ones responsible. Our society has become very comfortable and accustomed to making the teachers and coaches and state responsible for our children in some manner. I knew this, but it was somewhat a shock to my system when I found I needed to lump church in with state.
So circling back to the misplaced trust and the parents needing to be the only place the child can really trust. I have become settled on your point of view on this, though I will not have many walking beside me it seems. Making the workers or church organization responsible or accountable in the matter somehow is futile and an exercise in madness. Through this process, it has helped me to lighten up quite a bit. It seems though that my lightness in my writing has been of a certain little offense to you. May I encourage you to lighten up a bit? And encourage you as a friend to maybe not take yourself so seriously. Does Watchman think ill will? I think not. He may just not be as far up the road as you in processing this revelation in the church. I personally left the ideal behind of taking myself so seriously. I am a liar and I have come to know it. I looked in the mirror one day and saw a liar. A true liar. I stopped saying to the mirror, “mirror, mirror on the wall”. I stopped tweaking the little message in the text. It says something about let every man be a liar, but let God be true. It is up to me alone to do the letting. I fail miserably I admit. A tough thing to do. And I try not to tweak the message by insisting the text reads ‘let every other man be a liar’. You Junior have helped me see the error in my personal editations in the secret place.
Getting off topic here as I often do, but once again circling back, I then look to my parents that I put full trust in with respect to my spiritual direction in life. They did the best they could with the information they had, most of this spiritual information given by the spiritual group manifesto document. I agree with you, adding an addendum or appendix to the manifesto is probably not going to help much. So in this, I will not shoot at Will. I may wish to shoot at my parents, and they may wish to shoot at my mom’s parents, that in turn may wish to shoot at their .parents and great grandpappy may wish to shoot at George Walker, and George Walker may wish to shoot at Will. I will leave it up to George to decide what to do about Will. I have no idea who Will might want to shoot at. But maybe Will in the end looked around and decided his own gun was pointed at his own temple? Who knows, maybe he was still shooting at guys like John McNeill or the Ulster Constabulary or some other entity just before he pulled up the sod covers for a long winter’s nap. Or maybe he went down with Queen Vicky or King James in his fading crosshairs. Or maybe Calvin and Luther. Or maybe the pope. Or maybe Peter. At that point, if he had enough bullets left in his clip, he might have noticed there were no more big kids in the way, only little children in the background. May I learn to get busy scratching my itchy finger before my body gets covered in spiritual eczema…and the physician insists on pointing to environmental factors as the cause of my condition. I agree with you Junior to a large degree – don’t think I don’t. Iron sharpeneth iron – I am not so sure the blunt instruments are going to cut it in the parliaments and congresses of the church organizations. It all coming down to spiritual commerce might not deliver the pot of gold we may all expect. It interestingly enough is delivering more pots of crack though. Funny thing. And we wonder why. Maybe if we ask the parents to show up it would help?
I know this is getting long, but if I could just add a little scientific notion I have? I hope Wings does not mind me adding a little scientific notion to my writing. I would point people to the USGS map – the US Geological Society. Not saying they have any input or influence to the direction of things, but zoom in on the fault lines around the African continent. Might they know something we don’t know and are keeping tight lipped about it to prevent consternation in the populace? Maybe a possibility of a reflection of what is going on in religious organizations also? That some people in the know see something but are fearful of the ramifications of speaking? Zoom in and out over the coming years the main line around Africa and zoom in on the fault lines up through the Red Sea, through the Sinai peninsula, through Israel, up through Lebanon and Syria and into Turkey. Notice there is a disconnect in Turkey. The poles in the world’s populace and discourse are getting heavier, but earth’s poles are lightening up. Shall I get ready to cast blame on the fault lines when things in the middle east get to rumbling? I will get back now to the fault lines I see as I examine the man in the mirror. I will bear the heat of being accused of having such a myopic view of things. And I will take the bullets destined or meant for the little children. Not only my children but my neighbour’s children also. And His children, wherever I may feel their spirit. If only the protesters in the streets would go home and soak their heads then maybe Babylon would have peace again. We can only hope that the man that seems to be understanding dark sentences but if forcefully putting them aside is the reincarnate of Adams and evolution of things continues on in it’s subtle kind of way for another billion years. Actually I have no questions about most all that – it is just the part about Adams and his political progeny. And as far as Adam goes shifting to a new topic, I do wonder where the story book of the genesis of the black people is hidden.
A greater than Adam(s) is here in my estimation. History does seem to repeat itself. As one book you mentioned Junior, why has man progressed technologically and regressed psychologically? Has religious man slunk deeper into their caves, bellering from the bowels, sometimes in a seemingly kind and mannerly way, for everyone else outside to watch out for the rocks that will surely fall on them? I suppose we will have to see how it all plays out with all the domino sets. Not much we can do when one domino in the big picture gets a bit wobbly in the knees. We can only hope a knee replacement will fix it for once and for all. None of us like to be let down on our knee while we are admiring our hairdo in the mirror. I am no exception to the rule that the reality of my self ideology might not stand the test of time and faith. God willing He permits me to fall on the Rock, so I am not inclined to ask some other rocks to cover me up…or attempt in my bravado and misplaced authority on the geology of rocks to pinpoint where the fault lies. God please help me in this matter that I may see my brother or sister in Christ more clearly. I think it is my own fault that I fail to see, stemming from the sweet and comforting lies within. But it was a suggestion somewhere that I would judge the fruit. But the clusters on the vine? It has been advised to me to let religious commerce peddle that conglomeration of fruit in the market place and bazaars of the sea of humanity. The spiritual habituates may not be all they are cracked up to be. But it seems the light is beginning to shine through more in earnest on the spiritual orphans. Here a little, there a little.
Thank you Watchman and Junior for wanting and attempting to be on the right side of history. Sitting at the table is difficult. I hope I did not get in the way too much. I personally have been tempted many times to storm off from the table. But Mark’s tempest may not be where it is all at…now that I think of it. That tempest within has appeared to be serious and a joke at the same time. Slowly sorting out who is who in that matter so I am not so confused. Confucius say – those who stand on toilet throne are high on pot.
if the New Testament hasn’t worked in the past, why think it will now.
I believe it does work for those who believe and follow its teaching. The only reason it doesn’t, is when one does something different than the advice it gives. No mystery.
I guess I didn’t think the statement all the way through.
I was saying that evidently the New Testament hasn’t worked for those who have committed these sickening acts. I was raised to believe that the Workers were the closest thing to angels. We weren’t to question anything they said. I was devastated when this was all brought to light by Dean Bruer.
Some people were raised to believe the earth was flat.
J.J. Like Matthew 5:22 -:26 ; #:24. Just where is this “alter”? AND try verse :29 on for size! Or have you ever tried Matthew 6:25-:34?; especially as a parent? It is the New Testament. It is Jesus teachings while he ministered in his flesh on this very earth we now live on.
I understand. My children are grown now. They interpret the scripture as it’s revealed to them. THEY certainly understand workers are humans and have no relationship with the Holy Spirit than they themselves are offered. Clarify your point if I misunderstood what you’re sharing.
One thing that had become increasingly obvious over the last two years is that the leadership of this group does not consider the “underlings” — the ones who have “souls” and “homes” and “funds to contribute” — to be worthy of accountability. Other groups consider their members to be deserving of accountability. Other groups understand that their own existence requires their accountability to their members.
Not so with this group. It doesn’t need “people” or “souls” because the “people” are pathetic and the “souls” are pitiful. It only needs to be accountable to the idea of a god….. and anyone who speaks against that idea is of incredibly little worth.
No one means anything if they don’t agree with the status quo. If they do agree with the status quo, they are inspired and divine.
Tomorrow I will be spending three hours meditating with other queer people. It is about focusing on our breathing, it is about telling ourselves that we are enough, it is about the fact that we (in our own humanity) can make a positive difference in the world in which we live. It is about the reality of what is, not about coverups or about wishes for fake ideals.
I’m so glad to be free of this abusive group, and I’m glad my entire family has left it!
Mr Lehman; ignorance of the law is no excuse so quit using the excuse of just now learning how to deal with CSA!!!
William (Bill) Johnson
So, why do you have expectations of Mr. Lehman to accomplish what the law and parental common sense can’t seem to get done? You people expecting miracles from some fellow human being are ridiculous. Place blame and actions for illegal perverse actions on the perverts. Expecting the impossible from people like Mr. Lehman perpetuates YOUR problem.
To bring this group up to 1980 Boy Scout and Roman Catholic Church standards would be kinda cool. Bringing it up to “worldly” standards of today may well be an impossible ask based on the fact that they have rejected the basic moral standards that the teams of professionals worked so long and hard at.
You’re probably right Junior. Let’s just go back to 1970 and call it good since that’s what we all want.
Well, seems to be a hard job, if not impossible, bringing others up to where one WANTS them to be. Or thinks they SHOULD be.
“They” is a term that covers a pretty broad spectrum. Convincing everyone of the same belief has never been successful, even under authoritarian rule. Some have given their lives rather than change their beliefs.
Teams are good, but souls are individual. Jesus seemed to teach the masses, but the direct message is often to the individual. At least that’s the way I read it.
Luke 10 tells a story about Martha working pretty hard……..
Luke 10 – very good chapter. I think. I love my sister Martha, and she loves me. But she seems to be taking it a little bit hard that I will no longer serve tables, and I no longer desire to serve those that sit at them expecting to be fed. A worker is worthy of his hire. It is up to them to figure out what that means.
In the meanwhile….I was taken to Luke 17. I liked it too. Kinda makes me want to be sitting in the right place. I have found it a lonely place to the human part of me. But I have found strength in going against the flow – I asked not the outcasts feed me, but they did it anyway and they have no clue they did it.
There’s no surprise as I read this article. As a victim from many years ago the workers and overseers have never had accountability. They will continue to take your money and molest your children for as long as members allow. Just like Warren Jeffs he is serving life in prison and his child brides are still waiting for him and worshipping him. I truly hope law enforcement locks up these criminals at the end of their investigation.
Warren Jeff’s friend in Alberta Canada is still a free man and performing some similar duties, to my knowledge. And his followers in Fredonia are being investigated as we for discovery of 2 “missing” children as we chat. Life is full of instances of misplaced trust, when one looks closely. And in every instance there is a soul who misplaced their trust.
Sadly.
The New Testament was written many years before William Irvine started his cult in 1897. During the past 127 years there has been abundant CSA. If the New Testament did not stop the workers and cult members from committing the crime of CSA in the past, why does Titus believe it will be effective now? By the way, during his many years in Ohio, Titus was with multiple known CSA offenders and did not do one thing about it.
If you knew all of this, did YOU do anything about it? Pot calling kettle black, here?
My wife and I did not know about the many CSA offenders and/or sympathizer’s in the cult 25 years ago when Titus was in Ohio, (i.e. Don Reynolds, Dennis F., Luther R., Simon D., John W., Irving R. and probably others), nor did most other cult members at that time. If we did, we would have left the cult immediately. Every one of the creeps mentioned above was in our home multiple times with our two young kids. Thank God, nothing serious ever happened, that we know of. Thanks to Wings and others, this evil practice has been exposed for all those that want to know. And please, stop accusing people that you know nothing about and stop using racist terms, such as black kettles. CSA and SA is much too serious for people like you to be making sick comments.
Sorry if I offend you by using an analogy coined by Don Quixote before 1620. But that likely indicative of your new-found concerns about CSA. Ignorance of the law don’t hold much sway in our courts.
I wonder sometimes how much it will count for in the real judgement day?
CSA, unfortunately, has been around since human nature. To put one’s trust in the wrong things has been a bane since Eve ate the apple. Adam blamed her and she blamed the serpent.
My only point was, we should always be close to a mirror when we start casting blame? Sorry for your offense towards humanity, but we all have a choice in who we trust.
I hope I have a better excuse than blaming someone else, come the real judgement day. It’s great to use our God-given intelligence to opine, surmise and for logic.
A souls judgement isn’t ours to offer and it offends ME when if hear, read and see it. Sorry.
WOW! JJ, you are offended. That must be the fault of your parents for not protecting you. There is danger everywhere, but I doubt if birkhoferb’s deep concern for victims is of any danger to you. His realistic concern, about this subject concerning Titus is well founded. WINGS was established to enable persons like Titus to correct their lack of honesty and lack of concern for victims of CSA without destroying the 2×2’s monopoly on misleading with – false doctrine. Titus and His cohorts have ignored all efforts; making each situation of concern, a much larger problem, with protection of the perps of greater concern. JJ, your witty so called intelligence, and lack of ability to sense a hurting soul and their journey to deal with this reality of abuse is mind boggling. God’s Word does put responsibility on each person to ‘judge’. AND explains 2 Corinthians 11:3 as ‘serpent’ beguiled Eve through his subtilty………and how :4; :13 – :15 IS VERY JUDGMENTAL of the souls so transformed and their “end”!
You are strange. I can’t relate to your hateful judgement. Now you’re judging MY parents 😵💫?!?
You might wanna seek some professional help. There are good doctors for your kind of issues, maybe medication or therapy can help.
I’ve seen you posts since this site became an irrational thrashing site, stereotyping ALL workers into some category. Like some do for people of other races, cultures, or genders other than their own. Totally unbelievable to me. Coming from people who claim to be christian and know the bible. Wake up to yourself while there is still time. 🤞
….maybe I could help you two guys through the irrational thrashing process? My problem though is I am not a professional. So not likely I can help, but never hurts to try they say.
😵💫
“We have found that the New Testament to the Lord’s people is the perfect code of conduct, if applied faithfully.”
That is one of the most deluded statements possible. It is a conscious choice to remain ignorant and evade responsibility for the safety of children.
The New Testament does not directly address child sexual abuse whatsoever. Even the vague statements about children are completely inadequate instructions to keep children safe and how to deal with offenders and victims.
Jesus makes a statement about not offending “the little ones”. Some of our workers have preached that Jesus was referring to the ministry group, but even accepting that he was referring to actual children, this is hardly adequate instruction for protecting children from pedophiles who are convinced that their actions are not only inoffensive, but are actually good for children.
Passages about fornication lead people to believe that CSA is just a sin and the victim needs to forgive. We still have people in leadership who believe that. The truth is this: CSA is an odious crime that often causes a lifetime of suffering.
Where does the bible warn about groomers and teach how to detect them? Where does it teach about appropriate and inappropriate touching? Where does it teach how to create a safe environment for children? Where does it teach how to deal with offenders? What about how to support victims? The list of inadequacies is long.
The overseers are having regular Zoom meetings and this policy of irresponsibility is the best they can come up with? This level of corruption is unprecedented considering none of them now have an excuse of not knowing how bad it has been for over a century.
And to the poster concerned about tarring all workers with the same brush: look at the signature on this letter……it is all of them. The overseer shifted it off himself to them all. They are all equally responsible for the dereliction of their calling. Every one of them.
The local church members shouyld dump these false prophets. Yep Satan is still around!
“…we found it did not meet the needs of or rightly represent our fellowship. Above all, with prayerful consideration, it was clear the Lord was not giving peace with these efforts. In respect to God, we have discontinued working with GRACE group for policy development. The time spent with them was not wasted as we learned much helpful information about these subjects.”
So they’ll prayerfully consider the Lord’s clarity and act on their resultant lack of peace, and they’ll respect God’s direction on policy development, … but … about all that abuse and cover-ups. Not so much!!!
Was the Lord clear and was there unrest and did they respect God’s direction on abuse and cover-ups? Oh, sorry, no, that’s different isn’t it.
What turds!
Mr. Lehman, you should know that the LDS has a better policy than anything you come up with. Shame, shame on you.
The Lehman family were formerly Amish and still have many relatives in that religion. The Amish do not have CSA or SA policy’s, but they do have large CSA and SA issues. The Amish are very secretive, very similar to the present day William Irvine religion. Thus, CSA and SA abuse will continue in both cults unchecked.
So they’re admitting that they have NOT been applying the New Testament faithfully up to this point? And now they plan to?
That would be the logical conclusion, wouldn’t it!? But actually they’d probably say they did it right all along, too. Because they meant to, that’s indeed what happened…no regard for impact of their behavior! But they can’t use that on us anymore. We now know that all who say they follow the Bible don’t actually. There is actually freedom in acknowledging someone did something wrong.
Yes it is such a pleasure to read of the take they have of their one true way. I am sure Jesus would have rejected any rules and traveled for months to places including Dubia. I am sure the air travel time will be a different experience for many travelers. I can envision it now passengers this is you captain speaking please remove your socks and shoes for this flight. There will be a worker coming through the cabin to wash your feet. Please do not turn on your TV as it’s all fake anyway. In the case of turbulence the flight attendant will be by to clean up the mess. If you have any SA or CSA allegations please hold up a sign and your feet will be washed first. As a victim from over 50 years ago this entire logic is criminal they never help those they have harmed. However lets send Wally on a world tour, you can’t make this stuff up. And the wonder why the are being investigated?
Pope apologizes for priest sex abuse scandal with ‘sorrow and shame’
That should fix every victims suffering and make everything fine.
I wonder if his apology is considered “repentance” by anyone? Or God?
Well Mark S. I don’t know everything either. But I DO think after reading your 4th paragraph in this response, you MAY want to work on your reading comprehension skills at tad bit more. My previous post pretty clearly defined my intended approach to “blaming” for myself only. Or so I thought.
I simply was trying to point out the fact that one ASSIGNING blame should likely be very careful. No doubt the world is & has been full of things that necessitate blame.
It’s just not my job to assign it. Hard concept?
My limited understanding is that each soul will one day be judged. (Book of Life reference, here)
I simply would not want to count on any fault of others (or use any of the impressive excuses I’ve read so far) as any “defense”. I think God extended mercy to those individuals who earned it.
It’s been an interesting discussion. I will be traveling for a couple more months, but will welcome any further discussion if&when time allows. They could be slow for awhile, holidays & all. ‘25 looks to be another interesting year. 🤗
Okay Junior. I do apologize that I misinterpreted what you wrote. And I do admit my reading comprehension of what people write at times and what people say at times is misconstrued in my logical or emotional minds. Sometimes those two minds do not play nice. It makes great difference in the arrangement of the words and how one word gets placed in front of another at times. I honestly am trying to pay attention to that more than ever because of more and more misunderstandings in society.
It just felt like you were finding fault with Watchman and others for casting blame. I suppose I took it personally, and I am trying to see more clearly in myself that when I take things personally, likely I need to stop and chew on my own condition for a while.
I don’t look for faults in others. I think each of us could spend more time examining our own, unless we think we don’t have any. I don’t fall in that category.
I never intend to offend or find fault with anything I post. If some come across that way, I apologize.
I simply (try to) express the reality as it appears to me.
@Junior, I for one appreciate all that you are saying. I find in your posts much of what I have believed for a long time. Glad to find another that I can say amen to.
WOW, back at you! Seems to me YOU are the one who’s offended. I guess I can offer YOU an apology, too. For whatever you could possibly find offense in. You seem to have misunderstood the point of my response. YOU can judge whoever and however you prefer. It just seems to be a bit redundant and meaningless to me.
But I tend to believe the Bible as one complete record. Not just bits and pieces to justify some single point. I was referring to the “blanket blaming” of some, as the point of MY offense.
I also believe MY parents did right by not pretending that God bestowed an extra helping of blessedness to anyone in a human body, since his only begotten son, Jesus came to this earth.
I’m sorry if all parents were not as astute.
Since you are somewhat familiar with parts of the scripture, you may want to want to have a closer look at the last chapter in the King James Version. It is usually referred to as “The Revelation of Jesus Christ….”
That might shed some fresh light on blaming AND judging.
When I read it, I seem to come away with the impression that every soul will be judged. Individually, not jointly or as a group. Based on the testimony each individual left.
Hence, human judgement is futile at best, damaging to others at worst.
But obviously, every individual is entitled to their own opinion and choices. Each soul will be judged accordingly.
Thanks to God’s mercy and the grace offered by the blood of Christ, we all have an equal opportunity, I believe.