July 8, 2024
Dear Doyle,
Thanks for our text exchange last week. In our open exchange, there was an expression that the fellowship also has fault. One of those faults is putting the ministry on a pedestal and not questioning doctrine and behavior. This includes allowing others to take action that is counter to the Holy Spirit and Christ’s example. Our text exchange resulted in this letter, in the spirit of “trying the spirits,” both mine and others, as directed by scripture.
I beseech you: search every scripture in this letter, as I have. You see, I could tolerate being sidelined by this ministry after hosting a rich meeting in our home for three decades. What I cannot and will not tolerate is wrong doctrine and the misapplication of the Word of God. I eagerly hope and pray that you share my view. If anything I have shared here is not correct, let’s communicate about it with our Bibles open. My church will soon be asking about these things—so if I know better, I can do better.
We all understand that I do not own my fellowship meeting. They belong to God. There is a growing, dangerous trend in this ministry to pressure elders to defend their appointment. To ask an elder “who appointed you?” is a personal attack, devoid of the love of God, for reasons I will explain in the pages that follow. Not one scriptural requirement for an elder in 1 Timothy 3:2-4 is controlled by the ministry. I did not write these words. I simply try to understand and obey them:
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
I have nothing to defend, or the desire to do so. God alone makes an elder. You can invite our flock to relocate for any reason, or no reason at all. It is my liberty in Christ that makes this a non-issue for me. In the meantime, it is my purpose to take heed to myself and feed the flock that has been purchased with His own blood.
The following pages contain seven subjects that have been raised in recent days.
As I mentioned in my text, Doyle, I’m not feeling contentious—just deeply disappointed. And, I might add—feeling very motivated to please God and be upright before Him. I’m grateful for the support and encouragement of others as I walk.
With brotherly love,
Paul Svendsen
Bend Oregon USA
CC: Tom Hinkle Tammy Carr
ONE: “You cannot have the fellowship without the ministry.”
The words of Christ refute this in Matthew 18:20 – “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there among them” John, an Apostle, stated the criteria for fellowship in 1 John 1:7 – “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” This agrees with the words of Paul in I Corinthians 3:11 – “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” I am well aware that this Scripture flies in the face of what Jack Carroll said in some notes of mine: “Your heart’s attitude, not what you say with your lips, towards the servants of God is the real test as to whether you are one of His people or not, and whether you have passed from death unto life.” I John 3:14 places that statement in jeopardy. I absolutely embrace the brotherly love described in I John 3:14. The problem is, Jack was sowing the seeds of idolatry that have grown into ugly, putrid flowers today. The Levitical Priesthood that was to stand between God’s People and God was superseded by Christ, the only Mediator between God and Man, as noted in Heb 7 and 1 Timothy 2:5. This exclusionary statement that the fellowship cannot exist without the ministry does not recognize the great power in the life and death of Christ even as it may be preached. If the writer is intending to say that no one can know Christ without this particular ministry, patterned after the Faith Mission in the UK right down to the use of the term “workers,” that also scripturally false. That is placing limits on the working of the Holy Spirit that simply do not exist. The only limit to the Holy Spirit is our willingness to accept its prompting and directing.
Only man would dare say you cannot have fellowship without the ministry. The events of Ezekiel 34 refute this idea completely. Things got so bad that God took it over. He actually stopped the shepherds from feeding the flock.
1 Timothy 2:5 couldn’t be more clear:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
TWO: “The ministry was established from heaven even before fellowship.”
This is categorically untrue. Ps 119:89 states – “Forever, O Lord, Your Word is settled in heaven.” “The Word”, not “The Ministry”. Christ Himself. The Father established many things that are eternal parts of His plan, and Christ pointed to them repeatedly in scripture. The Son taking a Bride is about eternal fellowship. The Good Shepherd gathering His sheep is about eternal fellowship. The Sower and the Seed is about bringing people into eternal fellowship. At no time did Christ ever point to a ministry separate from the fellowship. He pointed to God’s plan and God’s Will and the wonderful news that it was. THEN he sent out a ‘ministry’, as a calling within the eternal fellowship, to PROCLAIM that GOOD NEWS. To identify the workers as one-and- the-same with the Apostles flies in the face of all evidence, natural and spiritual. The workers can only trace their biological history to the Faith Mission activities in the late 1800s. That is where the name “Worker” comes from. There have been many fellowships similar to ours across time. They have come and gone with little recorded history, and no substantial continuity. The Workers today have none of the powers given to the Disciples in Mt 10, when they were sent as Apostles to the Jewish people, or the powers given to many members of the church in Acts when the Gospel was sent to the Gentiles. The Workers cannot accurately claim Apostolic Succession based on simply going out homeless and 2×2. The Apostles were Disciples to learn and had fellowship directly with Christ as part of that learning. Their ministry came later. Christ himself taught many and had fellowship with many about his gospel. Many came to Christ through others (like the woman at the well) through fellowship and ministry from someone we would call saints today. This statement is trying to elevate the ministry to a place of pre-eminence that is counter to what Christ taught by word and life.
The following scriptures speak of the things God established, is establishing, or will establish:
- All the ends of the earth, the earth: Proverbs 30:4; Jer 33:2
- His covenant: Gen 6:18; Gen 9:9, 11, 17; Gen 17:7, 19, 21; Exo 6:4; Eze 16:60, 62;
- The oath he swore to Abraham: Gen 26:3
- The Children of Israel as a holy people to himself, his people, he would be their God: Deu 28:9; Deu 29:13
- His Word: 1Sa 1:23 (Elkanah states); 1Ki 2:4 (David stated); 1Ki 6:12
- His kingdom (with respect to David’s throne): 2Sa 7:12-13; 1Ki 9:5; 1Ch 17:11-12; 1 Ch 22:10; 1Ch 28:7; 2Ch 7:18; 2Ch 9:8; Isa 9:7
- Judgment: Psa 76:9
- A testimony in Jacob: Psa 76:9; Psa 78:5;
- The Righteous: Psa 7:9
- The City of the Lord of hosts, the city of our God, Zion: Psa 48:8; Psa 87:5
- God’s faithfulness: Psa 89:2
- David’s offspring: Psa 89:4, 29
- “Your hearts” blameless in holiness before our God and Father (written to the saints): 1Th 3:13
- “Your hearts” in every good work (written to the saints): 2Th 2:17
- “You” (written to the saints) 2Th 3:3; 1Pe 5:10
- A new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:8; Heb 10:9
Scripture states that Jesus came to:
- Fulfill the Law: Matt 5:17-18
- Seek and save the lost: Luke 19:5, 9-10; 1 Timothy 1:15; Hebrews 9:26
- Serve: Mark 10:45
- Do the will of the Father: John 6:38, 8:42; Hebrews 10:7
- Give his life as a ransom in payment for our sins: Mark 10:45; Matt 20:28; 1 John 3:5; Titus 2:13-14
- Call sinners to repentance: Mark 2:17
- That we might have abundant life: John 10:10
- Reveal the Father: Matthew 11:27; John 14:9
- Reveal God’s love for sinners: John 3:16
- Bring light to a dark world: John 12:46; John 15:22
- Bring a sword: Matthew 10:34-36 (calls people to radical commitment to Jesus Himself – a message of peace that divides between those who choose it and those who reject it)
- Proclaim truth: John 18:37 (Proclaim himself – I am…the truth)
- Preach the good news – liberty to captives, recovering of sight to the blind, set at liberty the oppressed, proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor: Luke 4:18-19, 42; Isaiah 61:1-2
- Be made like his people to become a merciful and faithful high priest: Hebrews 2:14-17
- Give us an example of enduring sorrow while suffering unjustly: 1 Peter 2:19-23
- Ignite a spiritual fire: Luke 12:49
- Destroy the works of the devil: 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14-15
- Not to judge, but to bring judgment: John 3:17; John 9:39; John 12:47
- Give humanity eternal life: John 6:51
- Die: John 12:24-27
- Reconcile us to the Father: Eph 1:9-10; 2:14-18
- Bind up broken hearts, comfort those who mourn: Isaiah 61:1-3
- Give us a spirit of adoption: John 14:16-17; Gal 4:6; Eph 1:4-6
- Make us (saints) partakers of the Divine Nature: 2 Peter 1:4
- Reign as King (2nd coming): Isaiah 9:6-7
- That we might be blameless and holy: Eph 1:4
- To reveal God’s glory: John 1:14; Isaiah 40:5; Isaiah 60:1-2; Hebrews 1:3
If this idea of “ministry before fellowship” is foundational doctrine, then why am I just now hearing about this? And why is it not discussed in the Scripture? How did Adam, Abraham, Moses, and David have fellowship with God before Jesus called the twelve?
THREE: “The ministry cannot change.”
This is likely the single saddest statement I have read in a very long time. This simply states that the ministry cannot repent, since repentance is recognition of sin and a change from that sin. So, the ministry must continue on in the sin of Dean, Leslie, Mark and so many more? Dean Bruer, and many others, instilled their beliefs in the present-day ministry. Their position and respect within the fellowship enabled that. If there is not a change from elements of that ministry and the spirit that pervaded, then this ministry will fail under its own weight. God will allow it as he has in the past which is why we don’t have documented history of an unbroken lineage from today to the end of Revelation. That spirit is evil and changing from it is absolutely necessary. The scripture I read, and you preach from, teaches us to acknowledge our sin, correct our heart, our thoughts and our spirit so that sin doesn’t happen any longer. Or is this why the ministry ignores and minimizes the sin of Dean, Leslie, Mark and so many more, so they don’t have to repent and change from their ways? That is so incredibly spiritually sad and not found in the life of Christ. The ministry can and has changed since it first came to this country in the early 1900s. When it first came, workers were allowed to be married as was the case in the Bible. I actually professed in a mission of married workers. Men’s decision in the early 1900s changed that for man-derived reasons. The first workers preached where they could, and anyone brought to Christ was encouraged to join the congregation that best fit their needs; this was the Faith Mission model. The first workers in this country crossed the country on trains and bicycles, not cars and airplanes. Gospel missions used to be conducted in tents wherever they could be erected or standing on the street-corner. Not in buildings and particularly not in purpose-built church buildings like conventions. There are many things that have changed since workers first arrived here. God wants us to change. That is how we grow and mature. But change is not without pain. Necessary change prompted by the Holy Spirit can be uncomfortable, painful and undesirable. However, it is 100% necessary for spiritual growth.
More and more elders are no longer moved to support a ministry that is not willing for serious self- examination and genuine repentance. Self-examination is biblical and critical. To refuse to engage in self-examination is to refuse I Corinthians 11:27-32, Psalms 26:2-6, Lamentations 3:40, Haggai 1:5-7, 2 Corinthians 13:5. God has called all men everywhere to repentance, Acts 17:30, Lk 13:3- 5, 1Jn 1:9, Rev 2-3. No one is exempt. The Scripture is clear that works and sacrifice do not exempt us from the need of repentance.
Shortly before Dean Bruer died, he told me that the conditions and privileges of the ministry cannot change and have not changed. The fruit we now observe tells a very different story—that in fact, the moral standard of this ministry is a very fluid concept. That Dean was subject to other overseers tells me that the disease may be very advanced at this point.
FOUR: “Who appointed you an elder?”
This is a personal attack, devoid of the love of God.
This reminds me of my years testifying in court. If you are right on the facts, argue the facts. If you are right on the law, argue the law. If you are wrong on both facts and law, attack the witness.
I can see right through this behavior. This question reveals that the one who supplied this question is motivated by something other than the love of God.
The only person who can give someone the qualities of an Elder is the God of heaven. When the Apostles established Elders in every city, they were looking for the people whom God had prepared to lead the flock, and by formally ordaining them they passed the oversight of that local church from the Apostles to the Elder(s). In fact, the only times the word ‘Overseer’ is used in the New Testament, it is applied to the Elders. We would hope that the workers also defer to the prompting of the Holy Spirit when additional Elders are needed. But, there is ample evidence that men’s desire gets into this decision as well. It is the God of Heaven working in the hearts and lives of an Elder and his wife that truly makes an elder. This statement presumes that the workers are intercessory and have some hand in “making an elder”, rather than designating the Lord’s choice. They have utterly no hand in it. That is through prayer, reading and contemplation. I am an elder, our home was open to the spirit and work of God long before any workers recognized we could fill a need in the field.
To answer the question at face value, if Dean Bruer was the overseer at the time, that alone is reason enough to give up association with “the ministry.”
FIVE: “We cannot remove the ministry nor fellowship that God established, but rather the individuals that commit horrible abuse.”
This is a false narrative. No one is asking for anyone to remove the ministry. This is intended to derail a conversation. But if removing the spirit that revels in sin from the ministry, removes the ministry, then God would obviously be behind such. It is possible to remove individuals from the ministry. When their actions and spirit make it obvious that their ministry is not of God, we are told to separate from them in multiple places in Scripture. It is idol worship to presume that some man or woman is in so great a place as to not be able to be removed from it. Many paid dearly throughout scripture for behavior that had them removed from their place. God puts His gift of ministry and a desire for fellowship with others in our hearts and spirits, 1Cor 12. No men, even workers and overseers, can remove what God has placed. The second part of this sentence goes to the heart of the issues that have inflamed this fellowship for the past 18 months. The removal of evil from this fellowship has not been accomplished in the past. Evil has been largely protected, enabled, and promoted. Dean Bruer and others got into their positions after years of reports that there were issues. They continued in their place despite continued reports of issues. As Darryl Doland so correctly stated in the WANIDAK workers meeting a few weeks ago, the ministry ignored the “obscure persons” and cozied up to the perverted actions and spirit of the perp. This is in direct opposition to the conduct of Christ. It is these actions and the evil spirit behind them that has people leaving this fellowship, both ministry and saints, at an unprecedented rate.
This graph shows the effect that a spirit not of God has been having for over 40 years on this fellowship. It is the number of workers in North America graphed over time. It has been declining for over half the time since workers first came to this country in the early 1900s. This is the fruit of the spirit currently in the fellowship:
If we don’t remove those individuals that have committed horrible abuse, we are united in them and partake in their evil. (1 Cor 5:2, 6, 7-9, 11, 13; Psalm 34:14-15; 2 Cor 6:14-17; 2 Tim 3:1-9; 2 John 1:9-11)
SIX: “God will never lead two people in two different directions by his Holy Spirit.”
This sounds like an admission that the ministry in this country is not being led of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because one leading spirit has led the Eastern States to accept divorce and remarriage while another leading spirit has led Western States to vilify those who are divorced and remarried and prevent them from having full privileges in a meeting. Both sides claim supposed scriptural spirit-led grounds. In reality, this division has a lengthy history in this country that dates back to the late 1930’s and a conflict between overseers, not the leading of the Holy Spirit at all. There are others. If the Holy Spirit doesn’t give contrary direction, then why is there different direction among supposedly spirit-led ministry? Paul and Peter literally went different directions at the Spirit’s prompting. Which were yet different directions than Thomas. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John recorded the exact same scenes as they lived and experienced them and as the Holy Spirit prompted them–yet their wording, recollection and focus are different and the same. We will never be 100% clear on the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual life is a constantly evolving understanding of the direction, life, spirit, love, grace and mercy of the heavenly Father.
If God is not the author of confusion, then how can this ministry justify the confusion?
SEVEN: “Each is given the opportunity to declare whether they believe in a God-established ministry or not.”
Why is there this nation-wide effort in this fellowship to develop belief in men? Christ’s commission to his Disciples in Mt 28:19 was to <paraphrased> “make disciples and baptize” not develop a following. Paul spoke against this sort of mindset in in Heb 12:2 – “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Christ is the author and finisher, not the ministry. Paul spoke against this sort of mindset and behavior in I Cor 1. A true ministry teaches Christ, not a puffed-up set of man’s rules. It is absolutely because of individuals that horribly abused place and power in the ministry that no one can nor should put their faith in men. The Ministry is to point to Christ, NOT themselves. THAT is their direction. We are told in I Jn 4:1 – “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” we are told by Christ himself in Mt 7:15-16 – “15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” This fellowship has been trying the spirits the past 18 months and has discovered more ravening wolves than we ever thought possible. Many of those leaving bear the bleeding wounds of wolves who have come to them as sheep and shepherds. Many are doing exactly as Paul directed in II Cor 6:17 – “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” They are separating themselves from idol worship that appears to have inundated the ministry in their area. The only declaration required of us in scripture is that we proclaim Jesus as the Son of God, sent from heaven as our Savior, that he lived as God in the flesh, died on the cross and rose again, was seen of the disciples (not the 12, but all of those who learned from Jesus and followed him who were in Jerusalem), and ascended into heaven to sit at God’s right hand and intercede on his behalf. NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE are we required to declare a choice of following “the doctrine that was established by God through Jesus to the ministry.” No one stands between Christ and his people. This is a fabricated doctrine, designed to elevate the ministry. Anything else is an addition to the Gospel and is false doctrine.
“There has to be a separation if we do not believe in what God established.” The Scripture is clear about separating from wrong doctrine:
- Angels separating evil from righteous: Mat 13:49
- Son of Man and his angels separate people from one another as a shepherd separating sheep and goats: Mat 25:32 32
- Nothing and no one can separate us from the love of God: Mat 25:32
- Separate yourselves from what is unclean: 2Co 6:17 17
John’s second epistle instructs “the elect lady” not to receive the one who is coming with wrong doctrine so as not to participate in their wicked works. This would support the action taken by a recent elder and his wife in their declaration that they will not receive those who are pushing predators to be present in fellowship meetings. 2Jn 1:7, 10-11 – “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. … If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.”
We are not called to be united around acts or systems of men, but around the person of Christ. Anything else is an addition to the Gospel and is false doctrine.
- Jesus said, I am the one who came from heaven (John 3:13, 6:38).
- Jesus said, whoever believes on Me has eternal life (John 3:15).
- Jesus said, I am the unique Son of God (John 5:19-23).
- Jesus said, I will judge all humanity (John 5:19-23).
- Jesus said, all should honor Me just as they honor God the Father (John 5:19-23).
- Jesus said, the Hebrew Scriptures all speak of Me (John 5:39).
- Jesus said, I perfectly reveal God the Father (John 7:28-29).
- Jesus said, I always please God and never sin (John 8:29, 8:46).
- Jesus said, I am uniquely sent from God (John 8:42).
- Jesus said, before Abraham was, I Am (John 8:58).
- Jesus said, I am the Son of Man, prophesied by Daniel (John 9:37).
- Jesus said, I will raise Myself from the dead (John 10:17-18).
- Jesus said, I am the Bread of Life (John 6:48).
- Jesus said, I am the Light of the World (John 8:12).
- Jesus said, I am the Door (John 10:9).
- Jesus said, I am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11).
None of the above should be misconstrued to mean that I believe there should not be those who minister. The Bible is quite clear that there be some who have the gift and calling to take the “Good News” of Jesus to the world. But, importantly, nowhere does it state that those bringing the “Good News” hold the key to salvation. The sole holder of that key is Christ and He can reveal himself to whomever he will as he did to Paul, Timothy, the Ethiopian Eunuch and many others through history. Ministering and baptism are not limited to “the Ministry” as was noted with Philip the Elder in Acts 8.
- That Christ said “go ye therefore, and teach all nations” — Matthew 28:19
- That it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them — 1 Cor. 1:21
- This does NOT speak to those preaching as being the ones doing the saving
- In context, it is God working through that preaching that is what does the saving
- Paul, being highly educated in OT scripture and having been taught by the holy spirit in the desert, recognized the absolute limits of his influence on salvation
- That God hath in due times manifested His Word through preaching — Titus 1:3.
- That it is woe unto me if I preach not the Gospel. — 1 Corinthian 9:16.
- That they went everywhere preaching the Word — Acts 8:4.
- That Philip went down to Samaria and preached Christ –Acts 8:5.
- The foretelling of ministry to come: Is 52:7
The ministry of this fellowship nor anything about this fellowship (meeting in the home, conventions, baptism, ministers, elders etc.) are to be an idol. We have clear warning in scripture to avoid anything close to idolatry and retain Christ and his Father as the focus of our spiritual life. We have access to a saved eternity via the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ and no other.
Anyone or anything seeking or claiming to step into that relationship between us and God is false.
1 Timothy 2:5 settled that a long time ago.
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I hope Doyle shares this with Ray, Barry, and Dale, and all the other “overseers” who have enjoyed sitting on their pedestals. Men who claim to be “spirit led”. You know Legion had spirits that controlled his thinking and actions too!
Do not understand why people continue to waste their time and energy arguing with cult leadership over doctrine, CSA policy, meeting placement, or anything else. Founder William Irving kicked out his right hand man, Mr. John Long, over a doctrine disagreement. William did not change and neither will Doyle.
Agree 100%! People seem to find it difficult to accept that the meetings are not what they thought. It’s an emotional attachment for some more than a spiritual attachment.
As humans we don’t like to be wrong and accepting that the meeting is false is also accepting that we were wrong and that’s okay.
We were wrong because of many deceivers. Jesus warned over and over. Now that the deception has been revealed, we can make different choices.
Nicky: Right – On! AND the True Gospel is 1 Cor.15:1 -:4. Paul explains: it was given to Him in Ephesians 3:1 – :9. What a shock that was! BUT we will take all the benefits! Ephesians 2:4 – :9! AND Paul in Romans 3:21 – :27 explains HOW it all happens! I do ! “believe” any who understands this would be willing to trade with the 2×2’s.
@Astounded
You got it, thank God! I got it clearly in 2017 and it was life changing.
The Hunter
I recently had a meeting with Darryl Doland on a different subject and I told Daryl that one thing I appreciated from this experience of the the last 18 months, is learning that there is “much Godly Wisdom on our side of the fence.” Yes sadly, there is a fence. Thank you Paul for clearly articulating and kindly challenging statements written by the workers with scripture and Godly wisdom.
Paul referenced Matt 7 and the verses that Jesus spoke about the false prophets. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” I have particularly enjoyed keeping these verses in the front of my mind to remind myself daily, that Jesus said we will only see two kinds of fruit – good or evil. Fruit that brings its own judgement. I appreciate contributions like this one. It helps me to be a better fruit inspector.
David Hull
While I fully support how this letter is taking a closer look at what we’ve all recently seen communicated by the workers, and indeed the things we’ve heard preached our whole lives, I would encourage all of us to study the scriptures referenced in this letter for yourself as the author invited Doyle to do. Remember these statements are one person’s interpretation. We must be students of the Word and decide for ourselves what they mean, considering context and the Bible as a whole. Don’t take someone else’s word for it. With all the worker statements and refutations going around, I have seen several verses taken out of context. Be careful. Define your terms. If we say God appoints elders, what does that mean? How is that different from the workers saying God appointed them as a ministry? Also, Matt. 18:20 has some important verses preceding it that change how that verse is read. Does God not show up if we’re worshipping alone?
I’m not here to correct or say I have the perfect understanding. But it gets rather confusing when we read everyone’s take on everything…and everything is shared on social media. Take it to prayer and discuss it with faithful people close to you. Praying for all through this very difficult season!
I’m sorry it has been a difficult year for many. I see it as a liberation for many. It seems to have created a fresh interest in truly understanding what one believes and commits to, and evaluation of how each will face their final judgement.
I personally feel it presents a fresh opportunity for many to study more for themselves and let the Spirit direct their personal convictions. Listening to others certainly provides food for thought. It doesn’t mean what feeds one appetite is healthy for my own.
I don’t automatically believe everything I hear from others or believe everything new social media acquaintances have experienced. They’re all individual based on their personal experiences. Differences are normal.
Ones OWN peace ones thru prayer and study. The names in the Book of Life will be entered individually, the way I understand. Thx for your post.
Your thoughts are much my own. Thanks!
Absolutely agree. I have been doing just that these last few weeks, in desperation really! When we are truly seeking answers, he gives them. And what I am also finding, is that others are coming to the same conclusions that I am! God is causing us all to look deeper into his word and I think that is a beautiful thing and not only that, we all seem to be reaching the same understanding. What you say is so right though. We must each find our own convictions on these things, direct from God and his word. I think we are all currently working out our salvation with fear and trembling. As God wants us to do.
I keep being reminded of that little poem:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
I’m so grateful to know that there are so many of us earnestly seeking our way through this extremely troubling situation.
Keeping praying everyone.
👍
I agree completely. We all begin as a little child when our Father begins to speak to us, we continue as a little child when He shows us His Son and we have a loving relationship with Him. We don’t need voices trying to redefine that revelation that He has given us.
Dee: We so identify with your, ‘in desperation really! In reality, now after more than 15 years; we no longer break-into a sweat as THAT control tries to be front and center. Thankful, after we experienced several neighbor’s churches: which all HAD man-formed doctrines; which they worshipped, openly: we had to return to God’s Word as written.
Thankfully, before exiting the “fellowship” – we had found comfort and rest when reading in Ephesians. Our hearts would go back and read more: yes, without understanding. After we left; It was not until we happened to Read 2 Corinthians 5:16 that just struck us COLD! that we began to have just a slimmer of light! That verse drove us to know what God meant by THAT!; and to know what Jesus’ ministry or how we knew Jesus in his flesh! YES, you must STOP NOW and read THAT verse; open your Bible and read it in black and white exactly as written!
There is “no secrete” code or recipe to learn God’s WORD as written. BUT it is very factual, understandable, and the amazing lessons THAT feed, assure and teach us as Ephesians 2:4 – :9: IS God”s Good News to us now! This is the Gospel of the Grace of God given to God’s chosen “Apostle Paul – Eph esians 3:1-:9. ((Yes, (we did NOT even grasp enough to understand the 1st times we read it)))”; but so thankful God has opened our heart as God did Lydia ((Acts 16:13-:15)) THAT she ‘ attended unto the things “”which were spoken of (by) Paul””. ((YES, this is also verses THAT took a ball-bat to our learning by 2×2’s)). OH, so much to learn of God’s Ministry to his chosen Nation of Israel – YES, Jesus in his flesh. AND God’s Ministry of our Risen Christ in Heaven: given to the Apostle Paul by “revelations” IS explained in Galatians 1:10 – :17.(Romans 15:15 – :19). and more.
Dee, It is good to read your positive mind-set and trust THAT as we study hard and with God’s very WORDS; we will not be satisfied until — we find our own convections from God and His WORD. We are convinced all our questions are answered in Our Bibles. We so hope JOY replaces “desperation ” for you as you learn God’s Gospel, NOW – Jesus in Heaven, gave to Paul: “unto all and upon all them that believe” ( Romans 3:21 – :27.)
Imagine these people saying to elders’ that the fellowship does not belong to them. However,they act as if the 2×2 Ministry have exclusive rights to fellowship and by extension anyone who wants to serve God.
These people are hypocrites and they own words condemn them. God doesn’t lead two people in different directions yet they are holding on to the rapist and pedophiles etc who are clearly in an opposite direction to God.
They have chosen their side and it’s the side of evil. Don’t let these people confuse you with their bewitching spirit. Cut them loose.
They are not following scripture. You can have a meeting in your house with whoever wants to meet with you. You do not need the “ministry’s permission”. However, if the people you want to meet with are brainwashed by the ministry, let them go in that direction.
Entertaining conversation with these overseers at this point only serves to upset people’s spirit and is a huge distraction from what we should really be focusing on.
This is how satan operates, he is a deceiver and he will never accept blame. He thinks he is the most high.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
The people in the meeting have personal power, they can reject this tyranny. The workers’ have no power when they are not following scripture.
This is why the whole thing is in disarray. They talk about no fellowship without the ministry.
Sime people seem to believe that even those in the Netherlands can operate outside the “purview of the ministry” and still consider themselves to be part of it.
They letter the Netherlands wrote was a very good one but it so much bigger than that. They can only stray so far from the “purview of the ministry.”
They too, according to Doyle Smith and other overseers around the world don’t own fellowship meetings, conventions or gospel meetings.
Therefore, if the stray too far from the “purview of the ministry” the friends in the Netherlands may start receiving letters too to choose a side.
People need to wake up. The 2×2 meeting is nothing but a controlling CULT.
As long as you are part of the 2×2 ministry you are bound by their rules and doctrine.
Anyone who want to be part of a non-exclusive doctrine has to come from under the ” 2×2 Ministry’s purview.”
Jesus died so that we could be set free from bondage. Look how many are tied down because of a false 2×2 doctrine. It is a yoke of bondage.
Choose Jesus and the Word of God. We are the temples of God. He does mot dwell in buildings made with hands not even meeting houses but in each and everyone who is part of his eternal fellowship.
Therefore, wherever we go he is within us. The workers may have “puview over their ministry and “fellowship”” but they do not have purview over the Holy Spirit or the temples of God.
Therefore, walk in the direction where the Holy Spirit is leading.
A lot of broad suppositions here. Are you free from bondage? The bondage of presuming to know others beliefs as intimately as Joel Osteen?
I think only the Holy Spirit truly knows the hearts of men, whether they’re a meeting goer or a critic of the other 8 billion people on earth who aren’t. I venture there are a lot more believers in other gods than there are any real believers in Christ who are held in “bondage” of another’s definition.
A true believer in Christ IS freed from all bondage, according to my bible. Even the bondage of judging those that have a different revelation than the one revealed to another. I think a definition of “bondage” is worth an examination?
@Mr. Junior Jones
I do not suppose anything, the Holy Bible is very clear.
I do not have to consider 8 billion people on the planet to discuss my beliefs.
The 2×2 system is supposed to operate under Christianity based on the Holy Bible.
This is the problem with the world today. A set of woke people who want to get offended because you don’t think about their beliefs in your discussion ABOUT CHRISTIANITY.
There is the “church of satan” and its goers. Am I to consider their beliefs as well before speaking? I find you highly out of place.
I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob aka the GOD of Israel. As far as I know, that is the belief of the people in the 2×2 system. This platform was set up to discuss issues in that system.
If you want a platform to discuss other religious beliefs perhaps X (formerly Twitter) or some other social media platform may be the place. However, make sure you join every individual religious group and tell them to consider other beliefs.
Don’t forget to join the Islamist groups and tell them to consider other religions when they speak.
OK, I’m sincerely sorry for getting off track, I was was just trying to follow the conversation on a site that I thought was designated to help expose and contribute to rooting out CSA in the 2×2 belief system. Maybe I misunderstood and took the meaning of your post to be a theology lesson. Please carry on, no harm intended here.
You can take my post to be whatever you want. The abuse happened because of a manipulated view of Christianity. Without the misinterpretation of scripture a lot of the abuse could have been avoided.
The home church and other beliefs, about not excommunicating perpetrators have come out from that misinterpretation of the scriptures.
Therefore, there is no remedy for what has happened without discussing the scriptures.
If you want to hear about law and abuse without scripture, there are a lot of SA cases about outside of church systems that you can engage with, just ask the US border force for directions.
I did and do. Thx
Nicky and Junior
I personally think you both add something to the conversation. My opinion. Though I may not agree fully with you, and you may not agree fully with me in all our perspectives. Even ones on this site I have disputed somewhat with, they still have my ear. The reason for that? Everyone on this site cares enough to comment here. Personally, I try to read the spirit of people’s writing. I want to hammer some people some times, and likely it comes through that way – but if they care enough to talk about what the church faces, they care enough for me. If I sense they don’t give a rat’s derrière about the church, I make my selection. And when I say they care enough about what the church faces, I am not referring to those that are very concerned about the fallout of the religious enterprise and those that are hell-bent on convincing people that this ministry is the door whereby we all must enter. These people are putting some serious effort right now into convincing the people they are the only pathway to Christ. If this does not raise some red flags in people, then likely nothing will. And I do have compassion for the perpetrators in a sense – they just need to be managed in a different way than the enterprise wants to manage them. But the enterprise right now has too much religious pride to even provide the cross-wired ones a chance.
And evidently, most of the church care so little, they will not even look at this site called Wings for Truth and they seem to have no care for what it represents. Furthermore, they are discouraging people from looking at a site like this. Their fear in my estimation? Independent thinkers! Not profitable for business – and would not be ‘profitable’ in any franchise of religious enterprise.
And I do find it interesting. There are four groups of people from a high level perspective in my mind. There are those that are advocating for the victims of abuse by the enterprise itself, and there are the victims. Then on the other side of the great divide are those that are advocating for the perpetrators of said abuse, and those that feel that message is true.
And it seems to me one of the reasons March 2023 onward has stirred the pot with the institution is that some people have realized that they were being constrained by external forces to think a certain way (and dress a certain way and talk a certain way and act a certain way, etc, etc, etc) – and these external voices and forces are continuing to try to control the narrative in people’s heads. And deep down, some did not agree…maybe never agreed – but went with the flow. Way easier for a person to go with the flow of the stream. It takes a live fish to swim against the current. The narratives such as one being, the church needs to advocate for the perpetrators and to fooey with the victims of abuse by the ministry itself. I would love for a worker to contact me and say they are fearful but don’t know what to do. I would love to hear from one worker that tells me they would like to make a difference and advocate for the forsaken but don’t know what to do. That worker is going to have my ear and my empathy. Fear is such an insidious controller in our lives – and so is ‘belief’….false or otherwise. And everyone will have their notions of what false belief means.
Anyway, that is just my two cents. Everyone that offers something benefits my thinking. So maybe your comments back and forth only benefitted me. And I have this sense, that if I gravitate to just the people that embrace my point of view, I will most surely find myself in just another religion. And there will be an opportunist somewhere in that crowd that licks their lips and sees an opportunity. An opportunity to control the Bride of Christ. And we have heard over and over about the golden opportunities. So golden for some, but not so golden for others. There was always this promise of the golden egg….that through time immemorial ….just eventually ended up laying just another egg. But whatever. In my belief, the gander that said he was the one that laid the golden egg will one day be cooked. There will come a day, when they realized they may have stretched their neck a little too far.
Anyway, it may not seem like it – but I care for you all. Even those that don’t care for my writing, and desire my voice be deadened. Sometimes I want to deaden my own voice – but then I get this message that says, “I will manage that me son”. He has convinced me that biblical is not His doing. It blasphemes the power and reach of His Holy Spirit. But just my point of view. Take if for what you want or will. His Will I have found, may find me alone with no one else to hold my hand. But I believe – there will be another One that will hold my hand. I know I can’t make it to heaven alone. ‘Twas Love that told me so.
I think the word “enterprise” is either way overused or needs a clear definition for those who follow this page. Star Trek had an Enterprise.
Enterprise: a business or company.
I am the only one on this site that really uses that term, and yes I likely overuse it.
I define it in the context of the discussion as the business of religion. And the spirit of the enterprise? It is the spirit of marketing, getting membership and maintaining clientele in the religious business. As far as the money part? I am sure that is part of the business too. But it is not accounted for, and surely not flowing to those abused by the business. So not sure what is going on there. There has been another person on another site that has that mapped out very well though.
The Enterprise in Star Trek as I understand is the spaceship. So let me think about it. That might work too.
A good explanation of your definition.
Junior J. We are not involved (at least I hope not) nor should we be; with those who have HAD THEIR OWN “revelation”! Paul S. who is an “elder”; is very brave and rightly so: he has been a very favored, elected follower of their “doctrine”! He has been mislead by them and now they want him to continue to be mislead, For Them. Now, you claim anyone can have their own ‘doctrine’ by their own revelation! .. Yes, Junior you have the choice or the option to think you have a “revelation’. However, Paul explains in His letter to his ‘believers’; in Colossians 1:25. “I am made a minister, according to the “dispensation of God” ((Can you say that?)) which IS Given to ME (= Paul) for you, even to ‘fulfill’ (= to finish) the “word of God”!!! There are now, since that time; no more revelations from God. Then in verses “26 – :27” Paul explains what is that “Gospel”!!! = The “mystery”!
Paul explains ‘what that ‘mystery’ is: #1. Remember God made Paul a minister. =Eph. 3:1 – :9
#2. That word Paul was to minister “completed”- “fulfilled” – “finished” God’s WORD. As a result there IS NO reason for ones own revelation.
#3. The purpose of Paul’s ministering God’s WORD was THAT God would make Known::: what is the “riches of the glory” of this ‘mystery’ among the Gentiles: which is ::: Christ in you , the HOPE of Glory: You continue with verses :28 – :29. and all in Paul’s letters.
God was able to (as someone expressed already) record very clearly; God’s Word and God’s work with and to Israel. Genesis 12: thro Acts 12:. Israel refused God; refused Jesus – God-the Son; and stoned Stephen whom they saw HAD the Holy Spirit. The ‘triune God’ had been fully rejected by God’s Chosen, Covenanted Nation of Israel. God turned from that NATION! – Romans 11:7-:11 expresses that very clearly! Forever? No: Romans 11:25 – 27 explains God’s promise to Israel will be fulfilled
God was also able to record very clearly; WE, are NOW in no manner: to follow Jesus, nor His ministry to that Chosen Nation of Israel. What would you preferr? James 4:2 – :10, as was required by God of Nation of Israel? Or Romans 3:21 – ::27 BUT NOW; as was the result of of the ‘finished work’ of the risen and resurrected Christ: Jesus our Lord? The Gospel of the Grace of God is the result of THIS ‘finished Work’ of Jesus Christ our Lord “revealed to” God’s also chosen “apostle of God’s ‘mystery’ which from the beginning of the WORLD HATH been hid in God….Eph.3:9
Yes, Junior Jones: we all have the ‘Right’ and the ‘opportunity’ to do and to think as we want or as we have been persuaded: THAT does ALSO allow us to be “deceived”! This “elder”, Paul S is trying very diligently to understand scripture and how God’s Word affects him and is NOT ready to be compromised by those who have no Godly standards and do not know God’s Word! We do sooooo pray for him, and encourage Paul S. to understand God’s apostles, the 12, who worshipped and praised God in God’s Temple which Jesus identified as My Fathers House and the House of prayer. NOT as the “workers preach = in a ‘holy home’ made without hands! = Luke 24:53; Acts 2:42 – :”46”; Acts 3:1 and Acts 5:42. Armed with these FACTS, we hope Paul S. is able to more fully study, learn, and understand God’s Word and God’s Good-News to ALL men everywhere.
@Astounded
I have somewhat to say, and I will make it quick because I have to go work.
Oh?
Yes, Mark; we had your very reaction; ourselves. THEN, inspite of ourselves; and our so called good-judgement: we could NOT avoid “going to work” desperately; to prove THIS Gospel of the Grace of God was NOT a fact; and Paul’s ministry WAS NOT in anyway concerning us! Inspite of ourselves: we read Acts 16:14 and Lydia…..; whose heart the Lord “OPENED”, that she attended unto the things which were “SPOKEN of Paul”!
Thank you for going to work!
🥱
To me, trying to deal with 2x2izms moral meltdown using theological/biblical/scriptural solutions is just as hypocritical as 2x2ism itself. It is not a religious issue — it is an obvious moral issue such as religion has NEVER handled well.
Region may have its place, but NEVER should be practiced at the expense of honorable human decency .. of justice and equality as human beings – of compassion, respect and care for the oppressed and exploited.
It is these basic principles that should have the focus … not scripture verses that we ALL know can and will be twisted to support the most vile of ideas. … Every scriptural expert firmly convinced their understanding is that of God himself!! What a hoax Christianity and Islam both fail miserably and are perfect examples of this curse.
Quoting scripture in the context of todays 2×2 issues … is somewhat meaningless and hypocritical (to me)
Absolutely true edgarmassey. Trying to use the bible for CSA guidelines and protocols is utter foolishness, bordering on the ridiculous. At best, religious groups could extract principles from the bible to use as a basis for CSA guidelines but the guidelines are simply not there. CSA/SA incidence is highest among organized religious groups than any other societal groups and that is no coincidence. It is partly due to moral turbidity by trying to use the bible as a rule book, it just doesn’t work and certainly doesn’t protect children.
Where religious people get hung up is on prioritization. While they may care about the protection of children or survivors, those folks generally show up low on the prioritization scale, often in favor of protecting the reputation of the church so it gets hidden. Truth and compassion are the first victims, pride is ascendant, then the children are easy prey.
We see what is going on here. There is a push by ministry and other fundamentalist elements of the group seeking a more biblical method for devising safety protocols. While some may be blind believers that it is possible, the more clever ones know that it puts the power back into the hands of the ministry group…..power that they have proven to have misused. It is so easy to tweak the scriptures into whatever you want them to say.
The ministry group continues widely vulnerable to continued abuse and incompetence, perhaps worse off than they were 1 1/2 years ago. A wonderful opportunity to correct the long standing problems has been completely squandered.
Edgar and Watchman.
It has taken all points of view to sharpen my own. But your perspectives of the rut the church finds itself in I will broadcast is where my own perspective is at. Our views won’t totally be in lockstep, because there are experiences and years in each of us that makes us different. But that to me makes each a unique character, worthy of examination.
Religion and the book it put together has left an indelible mark on mankind. I personally declare that I am not going to be clothed with the pages of this book when the cry is made at midnight. The book that religion has espoused as the Savior of mankind has failed miserably to deliver truth and love. It has delivered confusion and arguing and on both accounts. This place of confusion seems to be the happy place of contentment and joy and peace for the followers of religious enterprise. I do believe the recent precipitous decline of ministry and members in all the franchises of religious enterprise around the world is for good reason. I am prepared to let religious people believe what they want to believe what the great falling away means. To me it means that many are now aspiring to ascend to the place of truth and love – and are now having to leave the spirit of religious enterprise behind to get there. I have a care for the church; but the franchise of 2x2ism? There seemed to have been some stepping up to truth and love in the early days of shock and (forced?) awareness after March 2023….but that heifer has appeared to have slid since. It appears like the bible in perpetuity has been the slippery slope. I do believe though – some pages of prophecy have not been greased. Welcome to the Hotel California.
Mark S. Your comment concerning 2 Thess. 2:3 is as you say: IS exactly what people want to believe. However, according to greek language that phrase IS ‘a departure’ in other scripture and as the reference to 1 Tim. 4:1 indicates. That is interesting because ; 2 Thess.2:1; fixes his letter on the end of the “body of Christ’s existence on this earth”. This continues Paul’s letter to his church at Thessalonica concerning the “catching-away”. This is expressed in 2-2:1 as “by our gathering together unto him”. Paul informs this same group ‘The Body of Christ'(Eph.1:22 :23) of this in 1 Thess. 4:13-:17. Paul explains THAT gospel given to him WAS NOT from the 12 — in Galatians 1:11-:17, which is now, yet, our “hope’ and promise!
2 Thess. 2:3 ends with the prophesied beginning of the 7 Years of ‘tribulation’. Daniel 9:26 – :27 record prophecy of this man of sin — the ‘son of perdition’. This is God’s time clock for his chosen Nation of Israel. Paul, as Saul, was trained from his youth-up in ALL the scriptures at the feet of Gamaliel, and well understood His past as a Pharisee of the Pharisees; before God , Jesus the Son; risen up into heaven; spoke to him in Acts 9:5, :6, :7.
Oh, Mark, we understand the workings of our minds; BUT it has been great balm for our mind, soul and spirit to just allow God’s WORD as written to answer and sooth our imaginations. Has it been easy – NO! But, we are healing and eager for life once again; with the assurance and confidence that It is the very righteousness of our Lord and Saviour for all mankind that now saves us! Romans 3:21 – :27. IT is even greater than our imaginations and great suppositions!
Was there a “meltdown”? You must be watching the U.S. democratic party getting ready for elections. lol
“Meltdowns” are a figment of one’s imagination, IMO.
I read Paul Svendsens post, I think was very well written. Can’t really disagree, nor did I intend to with anything in it. I much admire his ability to state things as he sees them without slamming or judging bro many fellow humans. That shows more of the spirit I appreciate.
I am astounded, once again.
Excellent!
I am not a user of social media, but I have followed the news on Wings for over a year. I have finally even commented a few times in the past two weeks under the pen name, “DRS.” But Paul’s letter to Doyle, as well as Sam Vallery’s months ago and the very helpful letter from the Netherlands workers, now move me to comment under my actual name. I do so because of the courage shown by friends and workers in doing the same. Such moral courage demands the same of me, regardless of fallout.
I have many dear friends in the fellowship, including workers both here in the US and abroad. I sincerely love you all. I told myself if I did ever respond it would be constructive, and that I would speak the truth in love, whether to “authority” or peers. I have huge respect for sacrificial lives. I labored as a young man beside some excellent examples of this ethic. I left the work and married, and raised five children. If ever they fouled the bath water, we did not throw them out with it, but we definitely changed it.
I see so much pride involved here. Paul’s letter and his attachment is unassailable. Not knowing how else to “endorse” his thoughts (as if he even needs my endorsement!), I do so now wholeheartedly and without reservation here in the comment section. Not to beat a dead horse, but it is outrageous to state that the fellowship cannot exist without the ministry, and again I say this with great respect for anyone who gives their life for others. The graphical depiction of the diminution over time of workers in North America is chilling, but the statistics do not lie, and the trend since the apogee in 1980 will not be reversed unless those in authority in North America wake up and smell the coffee, as they wisely and humbly did in the Netherlands and Australia/New Zealand. I say to the workers and friends, forsake this implied doctrine of infallibility that keeps us from admitting wrong and changing practices. Have respect for the countless hours people who love the fellowship have put in to guidelines that the 21st century requires, instead of attitudes rooted in the 19th.
I have stated this privately and will do so now publicly under my name – the progression goes something like this: Exclusivity produces arrogance; arrogance produces despotism; despotism produces fear; fear produces blind, unquestioning obedience; blind obedience produces spiritual sloth; and spiritual laziness produces acceptance of anything, lest one be excluded from the exclusive group, a fate seemingly worse than death.
And here we are. At the rate we are going, there will statistically be no-one to emulate and demonstrate the sacrificial ministry before my generation passes.
I exhort my brothers and sisters in faith to heed the warnings. Consider what men and women say who take the time to read, pray and write things like Paul has offered, and heed your fellow workers’ example in other places. While you are at it, cease and desist from other hurtful positions adopted through the years that have only added painful insult to grievous injury, and I do speak of the inconsistent positions on remarriage after divorce. Taking that matter away from the conscience of those who have suffered the misfortune is an attitude coming from the same place as your iron-fisted insistence on controlling the narrative on the CSA/SA issue. Don’t tell us on the one hand that you are not ministers (see verbatim court transcripts) and on the other hand acting as lords over the flock. At best, you are under-shepherds, a glorious privilege indeed, but you are not The Great Shepherd. And please do not make the claim that we are not an organized body, while meeting collectively to make organizational plans and lists for the body. Such a claim, likely made to avoid collective liability, is so easily demolished on the facts. Last, if you see yourselves in any of this, please have the grace, humility and moral courage to confess and forsake it. That is the greatest example you can be to those to whom you minister.
So many have collectively invested countless years in our fellowship with God. Many will continue to, come what may. But with respect to the group fellowship that we have assiduously given our lives to, there is a moral imperative at work. It should make us all more honest and transparent, caring nothing for the consequences of being so, but rightly concerned with the consequences of attitudes that deceive, divide and destroy.
❤
David Serra, Thanks so much for your bravery, honesty, and willingness to stand for integrity. When fear of “fallout” threatens to silence us, moral courage such as yours, in defiance of that fear, often encourages others to do the same.
David,
Thanks for your courage. Your comment letter is a fallout of the erroneous stance that has been expressed in Doyle’s letter. That mindset will likely see even more fallout and side effects.
I am going to add my thanks to you David also for your letter, and I value the spirit of your letter. I am not at where you are at in the spirit of your writing. I am working on it though. As time goes on, I think more and more people will be standing up and saying, I do not care what the enterprise or the crowd thinks; I am going to tell people who I am and not have the fear of what man thinks or says…my fear will only be in the Lord and my respect will be for what He thinks. Others can do whatever they so like to do in their own minds and hearts.
I believe some contemplation went on here when you write: “Exclusivity produces arrogance; arrogance produces despotism; despotism produces fear; fear produces blind, unquestioning obedience; blind obedience produces spiritual sloth; and spiritual laziness produces acceptance of anything, lest one be excluded from the exclusive group, a fate seemingly worse than death.” I believe, this is not from a man that did not meditate as he worked.
The dark days of prosperity, and the bright days of adversity as one of our beloved old friends, now passed often said. He also had been in the work in his younger years but left the work and raised a family with his wife. We each can choose which day of the two we think we are in right now. Unless of course, someone doesn’t like this selection, and adds another day to the selectables in the drop down menu.
I read a good book a few years ago called “Why Nations Fail”. Published 2013. There is somewhat a parallel with your analysis of the religious organization cycle. If anyone wants to get a glimpse of where some nations are at today…and where they might be heading….and where the writer’s head was at in 2013…an interesting read that will make a person think (maybe). And I feel confident, the two authors/writers of this book 11 years later are having some new thoughts and new inspiration. One of the first steps though is the wanna-be leaders whittling away at the education of the nation, and thereby removing the understanding of the nation. Which then segues into the fear of the populace…and a downhill slide from there. Downhill for the people that is.
And thank you Paul for writing your letter. There is very good contrast (to me at least) between the level of understanding in the worker’s letter along with the spirit of that letter and what I see as promotion of the enterprise; versus your letter as I see it with understanding – and I believe attempting to promote Christ and the spirit of Christ.
About 40 years ago, I worked at a company, and the boss told me there were two rules to be applied when working with customers. Rule 1: The customer is always right. Rule 2: When the customer is wrong, refer to Rule 1. It makes for good business and a happy customer. But naturally, there will always be a client now and then that needs to be encouraged to go do business elsewhere. Sometimes, certain types of joy needs to be spread across to the other side town.
So once again, contrast. The workers philosophy seems to be, Rule 1: the institution is always right, and Rule 2: when the institution and the promoters of same are wrong, refer to Rule 1. I am taking the hint quite forcefully from this present crew. Even when they are wrong, they are still right. And furthermore, I am expected to respect that. Hoe boy!!
I also appreciate the sister’s comment on Wings here a day or so ago that transported me back to conversations on this Wings site in 2017. Deja vu. A circle-jerk of CSA in Twobytwo.org that has historically been tamped down by the ministry. Evidently, the enterprise got it quieted quickly once again back then. They have been very good at plugging these things with lead quickly and with affective force of either fear mongering or slick salesmanship. Take away the understanding of the people so control can be maintained.
Otherwise, it certainly looks like the workers en masse are intent on keeping this CSA issue and covering thereof operational and fully functional until the cows come home. There just has to be more to this story! Juss sayin’. If only all the workers would look at these two letters (the worker’s and Paul’s). And if they had the courage to look-see and understand, they could stand to their feet and make their choice known. The choice to serve the enterprise, or the choice to serve The Lord. Then the remainder of the people can/will be encouraged to make their choice also, one way or the other. Otherwise, anyone else can choose to remain seated, until the New Song is sung.
I am confident; this New Song will not be sung by the rivers of Babylon.
By the Rivers of Babylon, where we sat down,
We remembered Zion and wept
How could we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land.
May the words of our mouth reflect the meditation of our heart
And reveal to mankind, who and what we really are, and who and what we really stand for.
And yes, I also have loved the friends and workers around the world where I have travelled for work. Even one of two in the veld of South Africa that was a help to me there, and now stands accused. And one of two in the outback of Australia that was a help to me in my despair… who also stands accused. I loved them both. One fell silent to me ~25 years ago; one just recently. And some people are wondering why I just don’t split. Just maybe…just maybe….that is not who I am. But God’s Will is interesting. He is debtor to no man…so maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow…..He will have a new message for me; given to me, in no-man’s-land.
And Sam! I have been meaning to tell you. I also find it easy to call you my brother. You also reveal substance to your character. Character has meaning to me. Acts on a stage? I am getting over them. And the religious would winch that I quote Shakespeare. They say he was no worker! The sayers may be right…but he may have known one.
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
100%
Finally a letter of respect, honesty and love. Thank you!
Thank you Paul for your wonderful letter and God’s words to back it up about the ministry! Etc!
Again the book has opened and you will soon pay the price …..for you have poked the bear shall we say….
Where I live the ministry is now kicking out the people who dare to speak to up and question….
Meaning, meetings are being removed, elders and any who question are currently being told not to attend gathering, meetings etc UNLESS THEY FULLING ACCEPT THE CURRENT MINISTRY…..
At this time questions should be the norm and action should be taken to rid the way of God of evil. It truly shows us that where there smoke there fire!
I don’t know how people can just blindly sit back and allow this to happen in what in I thought was Gods true way and true ministry.
A few years ago an overseer (I believe in Kansas) preached: ‘to question the ministry is to take the first step into darkness’. This hubris-and-arrogance-filled statement cause a few discerning souls to leave ‘the way’ at that time.
Now we have King Doyle one-upping that level of hubris and pomposity with his “the ministry was established from heaven” and “you cannot have the fellowship without the ministry”, and other self-exalting claptrap in his really sad, offensive letter to a long-term Elder. This letter really says everything one needs to know about this ‘way’. And it is written!
Kudos to the Elder for his powerful, courageous, scripture-backed response.
I see an overseer pow wow acomin’ amongst the ‘Big Boys’! ‘Oh poop, we’ve been exposed! How do we spin our way out of this and keep our trust funds intact’?
Stay tuned and grab your popcorn! This movie’s just getting started!
Thank you Paul for having the courage to speak up for God’s Truth despite what man might do to you! You are a encouragement!
So well written! I can absolutely agree with every detail of it, and could hardly add anything useful to it. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. And may God keep you in His strength and care in this war against the forces of evil. Thanks again for sharing this. Will be praying for you and yours.
adnolt- Yes!
This and the letter written by the Netherlands workers very well written. I have had Cambridge edition of the King James Bible for the last 22 years. Matthew 13, vs 41 about the tares says “angels shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend”. In the margin of my Bible for things it says SCANDALS. All these years of reading at times these verses, I never noticed this word. Seems appropriate for this present distress. I don’t believe it is in the Oxford edition.
What is remarkable about this letter and others that have emerged over the last year and a half is that they indicate that people are suddenly in a place where they have to make a choice between church or God. That was probably an unthinkable choice a couple of years ago for most meeting goers but here we are. The writer of this letter has clearly made his choice.
Smith and Doland along with Shultzeeee should be ashamed of themselves and just go away. But again where would they go. They all have good jobs right where they are. All the money in the world, drive good cars, good food is supplied to them. What would they do if they lost that kind of a job. They speak a little in meetings (surely not seeking the lost) and sleep well at night, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Thanks Paul for your letter and good words. I have hope it might do some good, but doubt it.
Paul Svendsen: We value your willingness and ability to actually read God’s Word as written. 1 Peter 1″11, 2 Peter 1:21 and 2 Timothy 3:16; all assure us – it is the “spirit of God”. Your very first scripture Quote is Matthew 18:20. Your understanding of that is “a very commonly quoted understanding”: however if one reads the context of Jesus words in RED: “verse :20” is the conclusion of Jesus teaching “the 12”- the proper way to handle “trespasses” between brethern”! Verses 18:15 – :20. Matthew 18:1 At the same time the ‘disciples’ came unto Jesus, saying(asking questions). That answers the guestion: WHO. Jesus, and the 12 disciples; where is: 17:24: Capernaum. Math. 18:18 Jesus explains to the ‘disciples’ “whatsoever you “shall bind on earth shall be ‘bound in Heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.
AND for sake of Limitations on comments; You, Paul, please read verse :19! That gives the full authority of two of the ‘disciples’ who AGREE shall be DONE in Heaven! Verse :20 concludes THAT “Authority”! That the decisions made by ‘even two’ of the 12′ – on earth “will-be DONE in heaven”: AND Jesus will be in the midst of them. An ironic fact IS in John 14: 13 – :15: By the pen of John rercords Jesus: whatsoever ye shall ask in my “name” that will I do”! BUT John records Jesus telling the 12 (Just before he arrives in Gethsemane for HIS “CRUCIFIXION) 16:22,” :23 tells them again ‘ask’!!! Then :24 Jesus tells those 12 – :24″”Hitherto have YE asked Nothing in my name””. As, yet; they did NOT have the Holy Spirit. What a change there is in Acts; when those 12 had the Holy Spirit rest on them as Jesus had promised. It was with great authority and clarity that: they spoke to those :devout Jews in the Days of Pentecost. That first Day 3000″BELIEVED” and continued steadfastly in the “apostles “doctrine” = :45 sold all; :46 and they, continuing “daily with ONE ACCORD — IN THE TEMPLE!!! Is that what WHAT you as a believer NOW DO? WHY NOT!? OR the ‘workers’? as in Luke 24:53 or Acts 3:1? — As you state in 2 John 1:7, :10-:11; Do not receive the one who is coming with wrong doctrine. As you have stated: There is so much that we must KNOW and DO: so much to know exact WORD of God! IS Truth!