WINGS Note: David Jayaraj’s North American convention tour in August 2023 was prematurely terminated due to credible allegations of indiscretions with adult women and unverified CSA allegations. See WINGS reports:
Clarification re removal of Indian worker
Indian worker removed from Olympia, WA convention
Letter from Church Leadership in India
MESSAGE TO THE STAFF
As you know, in March, 2024 a group of overseers from various places met together with the local staff in India to help the staff deal specifically with allegations that have been made against David Jeyaraj and Jeeva Panchavarnam as well as other issues of concern in the Church. On March 31 a decision was made that David Jeyaraj and Jeeva Panchavarnam would be asked to step down from their places in the work while an investigation into the allegations against them was made.
On April 2, 2024, Four of the overseers along with Prabhakar met with a trusted legal advisor that a respected elder of the Church introduced them to. They asked for his advice as to how best to carry out this investigation. After carefully considering the nature of the allegations that we are dealing with, and the lack of detail provided in the allegations he strongly advised against hiring a third party agency to look into these allegations. His hesitance to suggest engaging in a third party agency, was based on the fact that there is corruption that exists in this country and that ‘pay-offs’, in the end would determine the outcome. He has suggested that it is the proper procedure that those who are responsible for guiding the work in our fellowship, look into and deal with these cases. He further helped us sift through the material we have and has given us his opinion on what action, if any, should be taken in each case. We feel that this is the right and scriptural way to handle this based on 1 Corinthians 6:1 to 7, where Paul strongly recommends that matters like these be settled within the fellowship rather than taking them to be settled by unbelievers in the world, but only when no criminal activity has been found to have taken place. Otherwise it will be taken to the relevant authorities.
In following the recommendations given us by the legal advisor, we have undertaken to look carefully into the allegations that have been made against David and Jeeva. It has became clear that there is not sufficient, verifiable proof of the allegations made against them to justify them being asked to leave the work. In our investigation we have had to sift the truth out of many untruths so of course we were left with some questions still. Unfortunately, as we sought to find the truth in these matters, we did find that an anonymous person, or group of people, whose motives are very questionable, appear to be responsible for making the majority of these allegations.
We appreciate David and Jeeva’s cooperation in agreeing to quietly step down from being active in the work while this investigation was in progress. Now that the investigation has been concluded, we find no reason why they should not continue to fill an active place in the work on this staff.
It has saddened us all to think we should need the help of a legal advisers when we believe that we are the children of the Living God and we’re following His Son Jesus as our Saviour in all things that he lived and taught.
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Six men “investigate” two other men who are alleged to have sexually abused children and women, and find the two men blameless.
No problem, no need for any change, all continues as it was.
It’s hard to find words any more to express how wrong-headed and incompetent this all is. Hopefully making these ridiculous decisions public will help more and more people see clearly and take action to protect themselves and others from men like these.
I hope that everyone affected by this injustice can find help and support from appropriate authorities and trustworthy friends.
Absolute brilliance radiating from this letter!
Magnificent!
I only wish I could paint such an interesting picture with the arrangement of my words.
I am only guessing why no one signed their name to it.
Investigation into India “allegations”. Who represented the “victims”? Who decides to follow Paul’s response to infighting among the Gentile church at Corinth who follow the Gospel of Grace that Paul was to “dispense”(Ephesians 3:1 – :9) to Gentiles??? Paul’s suggestion in 1 Cor. 6:4 was ignored completely. AND :7 : Yes, the letter includes verse :7. “”Why NOT JUST suffer yourselves to BE DEFRAUDED?”” .
………Just back-up and read 1 Cor. 5:1 – :13! YES, each and everyone of you! This is a crime between adults. THE action is verse :10 and :13. Then ask yourself the question what decides the crime or the what decides the punishment? (( they need a trusted member of the the unjust = lawyer))
As the author closes his account: He explains “we are following His Son Jesus “”IN ALL things he lived and TAUGHT””. Matthew 18:1 – :10 is what Jesus in His flesh lived and Taught! AND that is what Jesus who was in his flesh on this earth – both man and God – TAUGHT to that Nation of Israel as Jesus labored to bring God’s “Chosen, “Covenanted Nation” so they could be His people and he would be their God. This is the exact example and message Jesus gave to his 12 chosen ‘apostles’. Acts 2:41 – :46 is the ‘Apostles Doctrine’ given to them by Jesus Himself.
It is incomprehensible to think that those who only follow Jesus in His flesh as he walked the dusty roads of Israel to bring those Jews back to himself so they could be a Nation of “Priests” to go into all the world “preaching God’s Good News of a perfect, covenanted Kingdom of Heaven on Earth” — exactly as Jesus and John the Baptist preached in Matthew 3:2; Math. 4:17, and :23;;; AND Revelation 20:5 foretold by Jesus’ himself in Matthew 19:28………. Yes, it is unbelievable that those who “only” follow Jesus in the flesh WOULD reach into the “doctrine” the ‘risen Christ’ gave to that rebel Saul -God named Paul – who preached “”a heavenly promise”” = Ephesians 1:3, 2:6 and Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in Heaven and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 – :17 ‘caught-up in the clouds’ AND so shall we ever be with the Lord!
Astounded
Some times I have difficulty in trying to follow your train of thought and your meditations. Maybe something about all the bible verse designations mixed in with the sentences.
But your last paragraph hits home to me (if I am digesting it as you intended). It is what I have been vague in my writing about in an attempt to gently provide a seed thought. This is all foreign territory to followers of religious organizations. And I do apologize to people for my own writing that is not clear to people. I temper beating myself up too much though – if my writing is unclear to people, I am confident they will not venture into prophecy.
So let me offer a little sense of your last paragraph, in my own articulation.
I remember a conversation a worker had with a RC one time, and the worker said to the man the RCs were wrong because they had all these images of Jesus nailed to the cross and that we worshipped the risen Christ. I have come to see something different in all the franchises of religious enterprise. They all worship Jesus up to the time of the cross. Religious enterprise does not want their followers to venture beyond the cross because it would be bad for business. Religious enterprise does not want to leave the security of their bible behind to search for, follow, and have a relationship with the risen Christ. Religious enterprise has really left Him hanging on the cross. I am not saying the teaching of Jesus in the bible is not good because I myself love it, and this is part of where I am confusing people in my writing. But the Christian world does not seem to be able to put the bible down out of their right hand long enough to be able to quell the fervor in their forehead such that they can search the mind of Christ …and follow the Lamb wheresoever He leads. He wants to be the one in our forehead – not our bibles nor our allegiance to some earthly organization of peoples.
Now why is there this conundrum in the church? My belief is because we as a people were fearful to venture beyond the veil. It would mean leaving the security of what we could touch and feel and look upon and belong to and be accepted by. The people were somewhat encouraged to push out into the deep…providing of course that their little boat was still tied to certain things on the shore.
And I see this conundrum revealed in the church in March 2023 as the Great Awakening. I personally believe we are a privileged generation to have this revelation provided. And there will be two different interpretations of what the great falling away means to different people. It will be for each to decide what it means to them personally. To me, the spiritual realm is counter intuitive to the earthly workings.
To me personally, with this Great Awakening, the great falling away means, ‘what will I do with this revelation now’.
And to be clear to people on my meditations for what it is worth, (I know I am mixing people up on this) the church is the people – everyone included. Overseers on down the rungs of the ladder. But the enterprise is the spirit that has entered the church that wants control over the bride of Christ. If any worker or elder fits this bill, then they belong to this spirit. The Bridegroom in my estimation has given the people a wakeup call. He seems to have had enough with the spiritual fornication and spiritual adultery this enterprising spirit has had with His people. To me, it is time, and from what I see, the process is unfolding. And nobody has to consider this if they don’t want to, but has this enterprising spirit that has come into the church not instructed in guile-like fashion that a wee bit of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is okay? That to me friends is a very deep root in the way when a person starts pulling on it. The coverings we have come recently to know are not the covering of Christ, but the covering of earth. And there is part of all of us that wants to cover up so people cannot see our nakedness. But the nakedness spoken of in revelation? I believe that is counter-intuitive to our carnal thinking.
All for now. I likely blew too much smoke in people’s nostrils for one day. Feel free to give me a slap. Across the canyon, some lonesome bell is ringing.
In principle this letter says that as long as no forensic evidence gets left behind (direct witness), molesting children is declared acceptable within 2x2ism in India … (Support for perpetrators clearly justified by 2×2 bible interpretation!!)
Mark S: Yes, Thank you for weighing in. Yes, for some reason “religion only knows Jesus in the flesh”. That record is only in Matthew thru Acts 12: as God the Son; worked and preached only to God’s chosen Nation of Israel ((Government)) to bring them back to God. That very Government rejected Jesus – crucified – we will not have this “man” rule over us! Then that very Govr. rejected God the Holy Spirit” == recorded in Acts 1: thru Acts 7:60 = Stephen – thru Acts 12:… this is explained in Romans 11:11 – :15. God blinded His Nation of Israel and turned from them. (Rom. 11:25 – :27)Paul records God will fulfill all his promises to Israel of their ‘Promised,perfect, covenanted Kingdom of Heavenly rule on this very earth! ((beginning in Genesis 12: to Abram.- Acts 12:))
There is another Good News = Gospel THAT is based completely on “”the ‘finished work of Jesus on the “cross” ‘ “”! You are SO CORRECT!! RELIGION! Religious enterprise does NOT want their followers to go beyound the cross “because” it would be bad for business! (and their self-importance and control). Mark, What is that Gospel? 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 = Have you EVER HEARD THAT GOSPEL=good news!?
What is the ‘intent’ of “that Gospel’? Ephesians 3:11 according to the “eternal purpose” which God purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: = :16 – :21 is the result of the Good News of the “risen Christ Jesus”!
Mark, now read Ephesians 3:1 – :9; :8 to understand the “unsearchable”= (not recorded in O. T. or by Jesus in his flesh) riches of Christ….. Ephesians 2:4 – :9 explains ‘the results” of what God through the “risen Christ” — BUT God :4 thru :9 NOW gives to each and everyone THAT ‘believes’ = Ephesians 1:12-:13. Mark, have you ever heard this preached? as the Gospel = Good News!? If Not, you must read the BUT NOW! in Romans 3:21 – :26.
YOU are so very correct! Religious enterprise would have No Control! WHY? Because we must feel guilty and need them to help us! WHILE God, through the Faith of Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22) “”unto all and upon all THEM that “believe” —– :24 Being “”justified”” freely by God’s Grace. through the “redemption that IS IN Christ Jesus……. you read. – you read each word and meaning through :27.
Oh, what a message of the result of our trusting and ‘believing’ the Good News after the cross Romans 5:1 – :11….. there is so much more God through the ‘apostle Paul’ has left in His Word for US! Yes, and it is ALL based on the result of the “cross”. And that wipes-out 99% of religion including 2×2’s. We have found each and every WORD is important to understand God’s word and will and hope, now. What freedom for our very souls; What Joy! Thank You , Mark for understanding that freedom from God THAT no religion can take from us; BECAUSE of the Cross of Jesus Christ our “Risen Lord and Saviour”!
This is just another sad example of corruption in this organization, I truly expect the FBI to react in the near future. As a American survivor I feel very sorry for these victims, RICO will be a serious charge for those involved. This is just my opinion, however what I have personally experienced and what I have read on this site and others is beyond criminal.
This short note talks about, “unbelievers in the world” and that, “…we believe that we are the children of the Living God”. Isolate the people in the group as “we”, say that everyone not in the group are “unbelievers”, and the perfect scenario is set up for the parameters for a cult. “You can’t leave this “way” or you will be joining the unbelievers and going to he**”. Never mind that there are millions of Christians not in the group.
Mark S accurately notes, “…follow the Lamb wheresoever He leads. He wants to be the one in our forehead – not our bibles nor our allegiance to some earthly organization of people”. The word of God says, “And that He died for all, that those who live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him who died for them and rose again”. It is very unfortunate that through subtle wording the leadership, who couldn’t sign their names to this letter, still have to keep the reins on “their people”.
A leadership that is incapable of finding a qualified, honest and objective third party to investigate criminal complaints is incapable of doing the criminal investigations themselves.
All unindicted pedophiles are now officially welcome.
Very good example why we need the guidelines the workers have just rejected.
Worth noting is that this letter clearly expresses is a clear condemnation sentence ‘that the victims are lying’ … Hard to misunderstand the pain that these ‘victims’ must feel — and their situation is not even mentioned in the letter. If they have been so clearly condemned … on what forensic ground has this condemnation been built on? Or is this condemnation ‘sentence’ simply been built on the will to protect the perpetrators?
Comment: “On what forensic ground has this condemnation been built?… to protect the predators?” Great questions.
Workers: “…there is not sufficient, verifiable proof of the allegations made against them to justify them being asked to leave the work. In our investigation we have had to sift the truth out of many untruths so of course we were left with some questions still.”
There are still questions. The workers don’t need the answers. Reinstate the predator workers because they weren’t caught in the act. Going forward the guidelines are simple; don’t get caught and you’re going to get away with it. And, if you’re caught, we’ll still work with you. No big deal.
I hope this has all been reported to the FBI and the authorities in India.
It is beyond me how they can ignore the law, or maybe there is no such law in India, I have no idea.
Here in North America we are required by law to report to the Police, the American/ Canadian overseers know about this.
This is a worldwide problem and it’s not going away soon ..Over 900 perpetrators, according to advocates for truth, a reliable source. Many overseers, workers and elders involved.
However can people who claim to be Gods servants be content to just look the other way? Child abuse is not something to be taken care of by the Church, it is a criminal offence. The law definitely needs to handle this.
To say that Paul says not to take your brother to court, and use that as an excuse to handle it in-house is nausea inducing. Paul is not talking about crimes. It looks as though they want to pretend that this is their understanding, They know exactly what they are doing.
Perhaps they have forgotten the consequences for sinning against children and God, in His presence.
The other thing that has possibly happened, horrifyingly so, is their conscience is seared, and God has given them over to a reprobate mind.
what kind of people could abuse children and women, cover it up, move abusers around to unsuspecting homes, take it upon themselves to do an investigation, and say they found nothing worth punishment, and restore the abuser with ( credible allegations) to a position, where he has access to children/ women and can reoffend.
I have loved this fellowship, I cannot support this corrupt Ministry, I feel so sorry for those who feel trapped.
Please remember the God that has begun a work in you can continue, but you need to take the reins from the overseers, hand them over to God and trust Him to lead you safely home, I pray that you will.💞
13 comments 😳😳
where is everyone ? Have we ceased caring?😳😳where are Gods people? The caring hearts, the Spirit led, Have we given up so easily, do we not care?🥹🥹
Jesus was /is an advocate, an activist, He came to heal the broken hearted, a voice for the voiceless, to let the prisoner go free. He lifted up the downtrodden, gave hope to the hopeless. Are we like Him, or are we at convention listening to what the scripture says, fervently writing copious notes,and never putting them into practice in our lives, being like the man who looked in the mirror, and went away forgetting what kind of man he was.
Do you not see, do you not hear the cries of the children, trapped in bodies of grown people, immobilized who cannot be freed. Why?
Because we don’t care enough for others, but are very selfish people. We know the commandment that Jesus gave, to love the Lord God with all our hearts, mind and Soul, and our neighbour as ourselves. But we don’t have time for that, we’re like the priest and the Levite, we’ve turned our face from that and are walking on the other side. We have no care or compassion for those who cannot help themselves. We did feel a little bit of pity as we walked by, but not compassion , making a difference.
Besides, we were uncomfortable, we didn’t want to lose our peace.
We need to ask ourselves something, are we ok with keeping our peace and losing our Soul?
we need to remember that this was not a request from Jesus, it was a commandment. A command that is not grevious to those who have Divine love and are heirs of Salvation.
@ no confidence
I am not one to be writing many comments but I certainly read them. I’m sorry you feel voices are going silent.
Yes we are at conventions with a prayer in our hearts to hear messages that will feed us spiritually. But now we listen more intently for The Spirit and not the voice of man. We love our friends that we have met along the way and that have been a help to us throughout our years and it brings joy to us to see them and have fellowship with them.
It feels to me and to many I talk to that the there is also a quieter work happening. There is an ongoing shift in the hearts and minds within the church. There is policy and guidelines happening within many many members even if the overseers refuse to put it on paper. More and more believe in their hearts and minds that past and present allegations of abuse are true, even if not supported by the ministry and their “investigations”. There are so many of the church that are not only convinced but also becoming converted in the need for necessary changes and will be working to enforce their conviction and are committing themselves to this change. The Spirit is at work and is not letting up. Your voice is needed and continues to be appreciated.
to No Confidence
I am not everyone…but I am one standing beside you in spirit. And you are not alone. But I believe I know how you feel. But I am content to stand alone – standing alone will make me stronger. I may know you, I may not. I have come to understand for myself, it does not matter to the Shephard that I know you humanly. It matters to Him that you and I know Him spiritually. And it matters to Him how we treat humanity around us. And He sees in that whether an individual has a sweet clue what it means to love God first. Not saying I have a sweet clue either…but I am working on what I missed in that matter for 55 years. As the days go on since March 2023, there comes this deeper and deeper meaning to me for the reason why this ministry does not humble themselves and back up their bus to help the afflicted, does not care to acknowledge their own wrongdoing and misdeeds, does not have compassion toward the victims but rather are very ambitiously intent on protecting their hide and their turf, and very intent on telling the people to pay no attention to the angel that recently sent this light into the earth. You are right about this not going away. I have a sense this time is different. This light will not be removed from earth until the next step of the process.
Right now, it seems to me, the God of truth and love is playing second fiddle in earth’s orchestra. Whose serenade is pulling at our heart strings through the upper window of our life? And are we just preferring a lullaby at this time?
And there seems to be zero workers that give a rip – but I am confident this must not be true. At least I am hoping that is not true. But there are forces at work in this church and they have been at work for a long, long, long time. And these forces will have an effect right to the lowliest of saints. Could it be, those workers that do care, and would even like to go back up the road to help the souls in the ditch, and that are prevented by this devious spirit of religious enterprise because of it’s power and authority…that they would need some help. In some way, help will come. But like I always say, God helps those that help themselves. This is where we are at. The Holy Spirit I believe is able to speak to a few in the church – it is those hearts that are not intent on telling the Holy Spirit what the truth is since March 2023. They are asking the Holy Spirit with some pain in their mind, heart, and soul what the truth is ‘regardless’ of what we were led to believe. If any do not want to help themselves and put big boy or big girl pants on and search the mind of Christ on what His Perfect Will is ..then those will need to remain where ever they want to remain. Let the carcass remain where it is.
But most it seems presently in the church believe…. they believe fully, with assuredness in their heart, they are doing the right thing, and doing the Master’s bidding in walking by on the other side of the road. But as I am seeing, their focus is to keep the cluster together on this vine. And they will succeed in a certain sense. They may be right – this may be the way of Jesus, the Son of Man…but they venture not beyond the veil to the spiritual feet of the risen Christ. This is not a hike where I strap on my Blundstones and go to every social gathering. This is a spiritual journey. But the owner of the vine’s name is with a capital ‘V’. He has allowed this other vine to grow in the earth. But He has returned to check out His vineyard. He has permitted many things over the ages, but it was a test for the individual heart and mind and soul of a man or woman – what would they turn to and who would they put their trust in. And yes, I have reconciled it in my heart, the provision made for the previous generations. But this generation? It will have no excuses. We all are now given the opportunity to see the light. The question will be; were we willing to turn our head to see the burning bush? There are things that God winked at over the eons of time. Things that He allowed or permitted in the furtherance of His Perfect Will…but He had not approved of it. Our human frame wants to pursue and follow that which He winks at. But prophecy tells of a day when His winking and nodding days will be over. What day is this on heaven’s calendar?
And the Perfect Way on earth we all called it? I have been told by the Holy Spirit since in concern, I became willing to ask questions and listen to Him; there is no such thing – though I myself was a believer of such for 55 years. And at the point He was actually able to speak to me, was the point I was willing to stop telling ‘Him’ what the truth was. I have been shown – a different angel of light had convinced me of this being the Perfect Way of Jesus…. the end all and be all of eternal security. And we ourselves railed on those ‘infidels’ that preached this gospel of eternal security. I am not saying that gospel is fully informed either – but just saying this enterprising spirit come into the church has convinced the people this is the only secure ship sailing to heaven. This ship has all the necessary clearances to dock at next port of call, and it has been in constant communication with that port authority. A very convincing voice. And I do believe now it is/was an ‘almost perfect’ way. The queen of queens. But we as a people may have been the most vulnerable people on the face of the earth…most vulnerable to some extra effort by the voice of this other light. He used our most vulnerability to get at His people. Who dares ask Him what He permitted, but what was actually not His Will for His people? And speaking of ‘getting at his people’, word on the street (‘outside the camp’ in other words) a little while ago told me I was a condemned man – and the spirit of the enterprise has put a target on my back. They know who I am because I did not really hide that. But this is what makes me disappointed. They are not coming ‘to’ me, they are coming ‘at’ me through the vulnerability and oppression of another, another whom I love. This is more of the same thing and normal historical fair that we have recently come to know from the angel of true light that has been sent – the spirit of the enterprise come into the church unaware to all of us, including the seers over the church, is a cunning spirit. Do not underestimate the capacity of this spirit…and the latitude in the church that it has been permitted by God Himself. This spirit continues to deepen the oppression of the oppressed and conversely continues to further exalt it’s own kind.
And may I just mention something in prophecy though most will believe that prophecy belongs to a different age and a different time. Or it is just nothing. And besides, it makes their head hurt. I believe that God permitted the bible be put together by the Romans, but the Romans did not really want to include Revelation. That is where God stepped in. If these people are going to do this to Me to convince people that My Holy Spirit does not have the power and ability to teach and guide and comfort and that I can feed them, then I will make sure there are things hidden in there that these people do not, and will not perceive with their conniving hearts. He hid things in there that He knew man would not find if they bowed to the genesis (or the rising) of the spirit of religious enterprise in the earth. And since that time, man has been intent on feeding on the bible, not really on the Lamb. I accept, the bible can be a good first step, but unless I get beyond it, I believe I will find out one day in dismay what God had winked at.
So here goes…and everyone can cry foul. There comes this time when a voice would tell the people, ‘…come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues’. Ah yes. The spirit of religious enterprise would convince us that this means the political world, or the corporate and business world, or the sports world, or the entertainment world. And I am not denying this may be part of it. But what about the ‘religious’ world? Also further up the road of this prophecy, there may actually be a message for the church at Twobytwoville. It says ‘…for the candle will shine no more at all in thee, and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride will be heard no more at all in thee….’. The candle ‘had’ glowed. The voice of the bridegroom and the bride ‘had’ been there in past times. Now what is a person’s thoughts on the matter? We are a privileged people to see this in our day. But the people will need to make a choice on where their affections lie. And the people feel they are justified in their thinking. The people imply by their actions and words they need not, nor should not, hearken to the angel that sent this light into the earth. But they may want to consider how long this light may shine…before the next step of the process. How long is an hour in heaven’s time scale? And how close might we be to midnight?
So ‘To Spirit at Work” – you may not agree with everything that is in my writing…but I agree with your thoughts completely. I started on this journey in 2016 because my spirit started to groan. I have continued to go to meeting, but I have shut my eyes and closed my ears to what the spirit of the enterprise is intent on showing me and convincing me of….and have relied on the Holy Spirit to guide me. The Holy Spirit’s work in a person’s heart is not a speedy work -even once we become willing for it. It takes time because there are many building blocks deep in our life that the spirit of the enterprise and our own biased thinking has laid there that many will not have the courage or inclination to look for and deconstruct. But God knows which one has to go first, and then second, then third and so on. We just need to provide the willingness. He will take the time and do it with care. And ask Him in the morning ‘what is your truth my heavenly Father’. And ask Him again at night before you go to bed. And all the space in between? Constantly go through your day talking to Him and asking Him questions. And let the Holy Spirit tell you what He wants to tell you, no holds barred. I have found, since becoming willing to listen to the Holy Spirit, He does not get offended when I ask Him hard questions. A different kind of spirit from the enterprising one. Until one is willing to let go and let God…then something else is having control in our lives by some measure. And every day, be aware the voice of guile can be very convincing. One of the hardest parts that people will have to move beyond is the voice of guile that convinces us we need to keep our ‘friends’ and ‘family’. Ah yes. The priests and the scribes were fine leaving those words of Jesus in there – they knew no one would have the faith to take heed to those words anyway.
But I read in prophecy of some works of God that will be speedy, though maybe not as speedy as some may like. But He does have the ability to shorten the time. Who are looking on their watch? But the religious world will think this is something about needing to short-sell Rolex or Breitling or Gucci. Gotta love those designer watches! The counterfeits are inexpensive though. Just a portion of the cost. And they look exactly the same. And they all tell the same time. Why on earth would anyone pay a high price for the real thing? I think it all comes down to what the individual knows about the truth of the matter in their own heart…and whether it is just for show or not.
Mark S I read your thoughts and am amazed Because you do so know so much of God’s Word. Of the Old Testament and the Law God gave to Moses to guide His Chosen People. Why? Because they were deceitfully wicked! When Moses came down from that Mountain from God: he had to wear a ‘veil’ over his face because his face reflected the “Glory of God” shone so very brightly that Nation could not bear to LOOK – 2 Corinthians 3:7 explains this. Later, he still wore that veil to hide the fact: that THAT ‘glow’ WAS GONE! (2 Corinthians 3:7 (e) which glory was to be done away!) explains “a big change” = THAT Gospel of the “GRACE of GoD”! :8 – :9 “the ministration of the “Spirit” ” the Law was ‘glorious’ as those that obeyed lived a righteous life as those who love their neighbor – fulfilled all the LAW! ((Result was if you could obey all the Law engraved on stone and yet have hate in your heart: you had fulfilled the Law; BBUT no one could: result is verse :9 therefore the Law was a ‘ministration of condemnation’!(Yet remember it was ‘glorious’ – perfect – downfall-it was WEAK in the flesh).
As Paul, who was the given the “the ‘dispensation of the Grace of God’ to Gentiles(Ephesians 3:1-:9); : as Moses was given the ‘dispensation of the Law to Israel’;;; explains the difference between what God told Moses AND what God told Paul::: in 1 Corinthians 3: AND “Mark” these verses are not “idle words” to vainly quote! You must read each word and seek to understand: This is the very “Spirit of the triune God” which we are able to decipher if correctly, YOU, Mark are referring to when you write “the Holy Spirit”! Paul in his letters to the “believers of the Glorious Gospel of the Grace of God” to all those “believers in the churches = assemblies”: Paul established::: explains for us and to us in very simple understandable English.
You Mark, have recorded reaching out to Our Very living, God of Heaven and Earth: as you explain to No Confidence: “”it matters to God of Heaven and Earth THAT we know Our God “”spiritually””. Oh, what an immense deep knowledge you are experiencing. AND Paul in his letters through the very “spirit of Christ Jesus our Lord” EXPLAINS THIS very concept; this very mind of God which was not given nor can be attained by trying to DO the very Law God gave to Moses which was a “ministration of death” – it was severe! This ministration of death could be averted if brought the correct sacrifice AND admitted their ‘sin’ by putting “their very own hand” on the head of their acceptable sacrifice”!!! ((Can one imagine the stream of blood running from that VERY Place of killing their sin offering — there were millions of the 12 tribes of Israel!)). OH, Mark, one has to read – really read what God gave to Paul to understand the deepness and fulness of this very “Holy Spirit” that is given TO US when Ephesians 1:12 – ;13. “in whom ye TRUSTED, after that you heard the the word of truth(do not mix-up with 2×2) -the gospel = good news of your salvation: in whom=Christ of verse 12 – also after THAT you “”believed””; ye were “”sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise””,((yes, there is so much more that will feed your heart and warm your soul and raise-up your Joy and Thanksgiving to our Heavenly God and Father for the Grace of God BY the “faith of Jesus Christ” unto ALL and upon ALL THEM that ‘believe’: = Romans 3: 21 – :26 WHAT? NOT God’s good-news of the Law and prophets to God’s Chosen, covenanted people? NO — BUT NOW :21 the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law!!
You, Mark: are very able to express so wisely in metaphors what Paul explains “is now the “grace of God” to all men, everywhere: Thank You: because it is no longer doing the Law given Moses by Faith! IT is Learning the Gospel of the Grace of God which was accomplished at the very ‘crucifixion’ of the very Son, the God! AND “believing” – trusting – completely in THAT ALONE! Ye, even in whom God TRUSTS as payment for ALL ‘sins of ALL men’: As, Ephesians 2:4 – :9 explains — NOT OF WORKS! Verse :7 “through Christ Jesus”! Ephesians 1:12 – :13 explains after ye believed That Gospel recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:3 – :4!
I hope the sentences I write; DOES NOT distract from the verses I quote: as it is soooo very necessary for you and each one: to actually read in ‘black and white’ the very holy Word of God exactly as Written. Yes, again and again – each word must be understood as it builds upon the complete Word of God.
WHY? DO NOT be deceived! As Paul explains in Ephesians 6:10, Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and the “power of his might”! HOW! :11 – :17. Put on the whole ‘armour of God’: YES, the ‘helmet of salvation’ and the ‘sword the Spirit’ IS THE Word of God! WHAT is the reason? verses :11 – :12 explains very VIVidly! If we knew God’s Word!; we would not have been “deceived”!
Now, Mark let’s return to 2 Corinthians 3: where Paul is explaining THAT good-news for Israel and the Law of Moses which WAS ‘glorious’ has been done away :7.:! WHY is this important? Verses :8, :9, :10… :11. Just think of it this way! AT night in a clear, unclouded sky, away fro city lights: we can lay and see the majestic stars in the heavens and marvel! Why cannot we see the “stars” in the bright, sunny Day? The stars are still there! Because there is :10 there is a glory = by reason of ‘the glory that excelleth’!!! In this metaphor the ‘sun’ is much more glorious)) AND Now read verse :11…..’ much more’ THAT which remaineth IS GLORIOUS! WHAT is that THAT remaineth? Verse :18! HOW? by the very “Spirit of the Lord”!!! Yes,, Mark, that very Holy Spirit IS LIKE the ‘Sun’ – in that NOW the LAW has been done away with by the “Holy Spirit” which is made possible (Yes, for even you and me!) through the ‘death of Jesus’ who HAS PAID our sin debt to our God and Father! What a Joy is this very Good-News: ((who wants to try to be good enough through our own ‘works’ which are as filthy rags to our God..)) You now can arm YOUR very Joy with “God’s very Word” left on record for our ‘salvation’ for all eternity! Thank You! for putting your journey in words we can all relate to as we examine our life and commitment to our triune God, whom we thought we knew BUT we did not know!
How does this conversation relate to CSA/SA? There are plenty of theological debate forums out there.
BGM: This relates to the very reason THAT CSA/SA flourish. The ministry does NOT know God NOR do they know God’s Word as written in our Holy Bibles. This is NOT a theological debate. Read Acts 2:41 – :46 and read the exact “Doctrine of the 12 apostles” THAT Jesus sent to continue the ministry; Jesus himself, continued in His flesh to bring God’s chosen Nation of Israel back to himself. With the Gospel = Good News of Israel’s promise of a perfect, covenanted, Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. ALL that was required of that Nation was to repent and to be washed clean, do the Law of Moses by ‘faith’ AND “BELIEVE IN Jesus Name”! That very Nation of Israel’s Government – could NOT and would NOT!
Jesus in his fleshly ministry in Matthew 19:28 – in His very own words in RED: promised the 12 apostles they would set on 12 thrones; judging the 12 tribes of Israel: -when Jesus, Himself would set on the throne of His Glory.
The reason for discussing scripture is to reveal the very word of God as is written by the very Spirit of Christ – Himself( 1 Peter 1:11). Anyone who distracts from or adds to God’s Word – God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life! Who is this person being led by? It is not by any part of of the triune God! 2 Corinthians 11:13 – :15. Therefore it is of utmost importance THAT God’s Word to the Nation of Israel which Jesus in his flesh and His 12 apostles preached be exactly read and understood!
One does not need to know any iteration of God to understand that violating a child is wrong. CSA is emotionally and psychologically damaging. The godless know that.
I am sorry BGM….and Wings admin…and the people. I am a cause of this stirring.
And I know many want me to use way less words, or arrange them in a different manner to make myself understood, or shut up altogether – most of my family would love for me to just shut up on this matter before the High Court of Justice in the church. I can see that some very powerful words sometimes come in very small packages – and I would think your last comment BGM has to hit a man or woman on the head with a seven pound sledge hammer. But many will prove me wrong; normal fair.
I repeat your comment – “One does not need to know any iteration of God to understand that violating a child is wrong. CSA is emotionally and psychologically damaging. The godless know that.‘
Thank you BGM….and Watchman, and Observer, and No confidence, and Spirit at Work, and TALK, and Edgar, and Nicky, and so many others that should be mentioned, even those that have fallen silent (Max, Bucky? etc?…you listening?)…and many others in other spaces, and even those I can see that are softening their stance and beginning to hear and believe the cries…the ones that truly and honestly have a care about what is going on for the children’s sake. In fellowship meetings I have been in, here and across the country, I detect a softening of a few…even one that in past time had been hardcore enterprise. All your words fitly spoken, and willingness to do something and speak up… will be like…could be like…and hopefully will be, renewing of the souls that have lost something, somewhere along, …and in, the way. It will be a miracle. All your effort is returning hope and strength to those that had lost hope in the dawning of a new day, themselves trodden on by the spirit of the enterprise pushing their ‘alternate facts’. Oh to have the wounds bound up of those that are broken, and get their feet on solid ground again. And figure out what needs to be done so that this injustice does not continue to go on into the sunset. That miracle I could see and believe in. I am over and done with the disappearing miracles of the enterprise. They have proven themselves miserable comforters on the job. Physicians of no value.
And if anyone cares, now go back and read the article about the sister that was told to kneel before the two senior workers, behind the door they insisted be closed. There was only two chairs in the room; one for Dean Bruer and the other for Billy Joe Jim Bob…and they mocked her. Fifteen months later!? Where are we at, with those two chairs?
And it’s the godless who DO that vile behavior. That’s why I so appreciate Mark S’s understanding of the contributing factors.
Who were the group of overeeers that visited India? Name them. Who wrote this letter? These overseers need to be accountable to their countries.
Dan Sigurdson siggysan@gmail.com Allan Mitchell alanmpers@gmail.com Wayne Dean wgd1964@gmail.com Andrew Melville nroooz@yahoo.com Lloyd Kneesch lk0355@gmail.com Llyodkneesch@imailbox.net Lk072011@emailden.net Lyle Shultz motiti63@yahoo.ca Peter Morrison peterjmor@gmail.com