Amy Williams, Journalist 7:33 am on 29 April 2024
Warning: This story discusses details of sexual abuse
A New Zealand woman who as a child was sexually abused by a member of a secretive sect under investigation by the FBI says the religious group’s leaders spent three years trying to get the man to admit his guilt before advising her to go to the police.
The man was found guilty at trial in 2017 for abuse that began in the 1990s, spent time in jail, was placed on the sex offender register and has since left the nameless sect.
The sect has apologised to any victims for its mishandling of abuse in the past, and said it encourages its people to report abuse to police.
Natalie*, who is now in her 40s, said the abuse was crippling and she lived with chronic illness.
She grew up in the sect, and her abuser was also part of the religious group with no name.
The abuse started when she was 12 years old and at 17 she ran away from home to escape the regular visitor.
By the time she disclosed the abuse to her parents, Natalie was an adult with children of her own.
“It wasn’t until after I disclosed, they all just went, ‘Oh we see it now’,” she said.
“It’s taught … it’s there from the moment you’re born the way things are, the world is unsafe out there but within the fold it’s safe and nobody would harm a child in there because they’re living by the Bible.”
The sect has 2500 members and 60 ministers in New Zealand, meets in homes and has no property, nor an official name – but is commonly known as Two by Twos or The Truth.
Its itinerant ministers, called Workers, travel in pairs and stay in members’ homes – the sect says these ministers are now police-vetted and trained in keeping children safe.
Natalie said when she disclosed the abuse more than 10 years ago, the sect’s leaders spent years trying to resolve the matter in-house.
“They got involved and for three years there was quite a bit of backwards and forwards, with him denying any wrongdoing. They’d gotten to the point where they said, ‘We can’t do any more; he’s refusing help.’
“They said, ‘There’s not much more we can do until you go to the police.’ “
She reported the abuse to the police and the man was eventually found guilty and jailed.
But she said a “purity” culture based on a patriarchal structure meant her immediate family was treated badly by some of the sect’s ministers.
“They’ve had Workers come into their home that won’t look at them, won’t talk to them because of what I’ve done to this ‘innocent’ man. Even if you’re still in the church it will cost you dearly to speak out or have somebody else speak out.”
The sect has been active in New Zealand for more than a century. Spokesperson Wayne Dean said they are a group of people with a common belief in the fundamental teachings of Jesus in the New Testament, and their statement of beliefs were based on the gospel of Matthew.
“We seek to live a quiet and peaceful life amongst our fellow men, hoping to show a good example of Christian living,” he said in an email.
Dean had confirmed police in New Zealand were investigating at least one former minister for historical abuse and the group was aware of 14 cases of allegations against members.
“When a complaint of historical sexual abuse is brought to our attention, we encourage the victim/survivor to report it to the police – the incident is dealt with as required by the law and the alleged offender is stood down from attending any meetings pending investigations.”
The group took every complaint seriously, Dean said.
“Unfortunately, there have been some amongst us that have given in to the desires of their sinful nature and in darkness and secrecy have abused the innocent. Like the rest of society, we are appalled by this and would never condone such behaviour.”
Jillian Hishon runs a hotline for people linked to the sect to report abuse.
Australian victim advocate Jillian Hishon ran a hotline for people linked to the sect to report abuse and said RNZ’s stories had helped more New Zealanders to come forward in the past week.
She was concerned the sect was not doing enough to prevent abuse and help people report historic or ongoing abuse.
“This is something that every single Worker should be banging a drum about.
“In my opinion, they should have just stopped all their meetings and conventions and everything, and sorted all this out and … put across [to] people that they were serious about clearing this up. They’re not doing that.”
A current insider – who RNZ has agreed not to identify – was also concerned about how the sect’s was responding to cases of historic abuse – specifically the lack of information for members and still allowing ministers to stay in homes with children.
“If we’re going to have lasting change among us it has to be influenced from inside and outside. If I leave, I don’t have as much clout…so I haven’t left for that reason. There are things in our way that are really good and there are things in our way that have to change.”
Natalie said she believed things could have been different, had her family and abuser not been in the sect.
“If I hadn’t have been in the church it may have been quite different, the disclosure, the way I handled it. Who was going to believe me – that a professing man would do that?”
* Former members spoke to RNZ on condition of anonymity – names have been changed
Where to get help:
- NZ Police
- Victim Support 0800 842 846
- Rape Crisis 0800 88 33 00
- Rape Prevention Education
- Empowerment Trust
- HELP Call 24/7 (Auckland): 09 623 1700, (Wellington): 04 801 6655 – push 0 at the menu
- Safe to talk: a 24/7 confidential helpline for survivors, support people and those with harmful sexual behaviour 0800044334
- Male Survivors Aotearoa
- Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) 022 344 0496
If it is an emergency and you feel like you or someone else is at risk, call 111.
WINGS Note: This report relates to previous WINGS posts:
Eric Walter Smith – Nelson, New Zealand: convicted of 12 child abuse charges
Victim Impact Statement (Eric Smith, Nelson NZ)
Overseer Wayne Dean recently told the media “the church encouraged any victims of historical sexual abuse to go to the police”. In this case the victim relived the abuse while reporting to the police and relived it again through a lengthy jury trial at an enormous cost to her own wellbeing.
After all this the workers have still not publicly backed the Court verdict. Accordingly, a number of friends in the area continue to cast aspersions on the victim, despite the Court verdicts.
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”After all this the workers have still not publicly backed the Court verdict. Accordingly, a number of friends in the area continue to cast aspersions on the victim, despite the Court verdicts”.
This sounds an awful lot like the Michigan case involving overseer Jerome Frandle (on the Wings come page) where Jerome blamed everyone else for him not reporting on sexual predators but himself.
He even had it argued that he was not a minister and never did baptism. Of course witness testimony disproved his lies with a witness telling the court Jerome had baptized her! There is no shame with this bunch.
Blame the victim and try to make themselves look clean. It’s not going to go well when they meet God, unless there is some serious repentance.
to ‘face to face’
Repentance will not come in the present state of these people.
At least for anyone that is bowing down to, pays homage to, pays honor to, has spiritual faith in, has spiritual trust in, pays allegiance to, promotes, praises or follows ….. religious enterprise and the spirit it possesses.
It is not possible for repentance to come in this matter before the Court of the Most High. They have denied Christ because their affections were not fully with Him. And because their faith is weak in what they cannot see with their eyes and hear with their ears – they turn their trust and faith to something they can use their carnal senses to behold. The pride of the enterprise and the followers is strong.
These people that have put more trust in the enterprise are not getting to first base with what can open up if they would only turn from the enterprise of religious power and authority and give everything they have to the Holy Spirit. It is really quite amazing when one is willing to put that religious thinking and praise to death.
And the reason repentance will not come, is these people have covered up with these fig leaves of religious endeavor far too long. And they have not received a little inkling that something in the organization was wired wrong. Part of the unspoken doctrine we received as followers of religious enterprise was to cover up. Covering up who we really are is journeying the wrong way on the road of repentance. The further up that road of religious enterprise one travels, the further away from the goal posts of repentance one gets.
But maybe there is a bright spot. And that is in the place of trauma or tragedy. The abused within the church, abused and covered by those in authority – have known the trauma, the tragedy that has rendered many desolate in their journey. They have been rendered desolate by the abominable spirit within religious enterprise and the abominable acts they covered for sake of that enterprise.
And here is the hope. The only thing that will shake these people bowing to religious enterprise and will bring repentance will be their turn at the roulette table, having their world shaken and losing everything. And depending on how hard they are, will depend on how hard they need to be shaken.
Then they will look up in their agony and say to the Christ face-to-face, I am sorry. Please have mercy on me, I have shed innocent spiritual blood. And they will throw done the bag of money or stop saying secretly in their heart for the Christ’s ear to hear…’I do not know this man’ – all of that will finally mean nothing to them any longer.
And then … repentance will come. It is mankind’s ‘road less travelled’. But there are amazing things to see up that road. If only the people would believe it – and venture up that road – then they would see it.
@ Mark s. We are seeing limited repentance among the Friends but it is not making much difference to the “enterprise”.
Events and revelations of the last year have slammed a lot of people and they have reacted in various manners:
1. Some have spoken up for change.
2. Some have gotten involved to support victims and denounce perpetrators.
3. Some have given up and left.
4. Many are on the cusp of leaving if they don’t see change.
The problem going forward is mainly at the leadership level. The vast majority have hunkered down, waiting for things to blow over so that they can go back to the old ways. While waiting, they are blaming it all on “persecution by the world” and pointing out that Jesus said “the world will hate you like they hated me”. Some people seem to buy that line of baloney.
I am with you Watchman.
Some people are seeing, and some are not. It is what it is.
And there are many that are pushing back against the enterprise – and conversely the enterprise is very confident with assuredness and faith in their own hearts and minds that this is the situation that we were told would come. But all those will have to remain in their present seats of religious enterprise if they cannot get beyond the vision of said enterprise. It is what it is.
It reminds me of the difference between the guy that has seen Niagara Falls, one who has not, and a baloney sandwich.
A man that has seen the falls has seen the mist, and the man that has not seen the falls has missed the scene.
And the baloney sandwich you ask? I will let everyone chew on that one. Some people just happen to be slow eaters.
@mark and watchman. Me thinks you are too taken up with what the other fellow needs to do. For me he says to take heed that you enter into the straight gate, and make sure that you know the gate keeper and love his ways not yours.
@Amen.
And yet here you are, getting all taken up with what MarkS and I need to do.
Amen – with a smile on my face, I ask you “You got a mirror?”
Golly
Talk about being entertained!
But I think you are reading me wrong Amen. I am telling you and others, see what you want to see, and think what you want to think. I am over it.
@watchman, glad you see what I mean. Now maybe we will hear what you need to do.
@amen. Oh I get it alright. The irony and hypocrisy that is.
Stick around, you are an excellent example of how indoctrination in a system lands on people. Like Simon and Garfunkel sang “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest…..”
@mark and watchman. Well I see I was wrong again. No you don’t get it. If you were having your discussion about how wrong everyone else is and Jesus came along and you asked him, are there few that be saved, and he responded take need to yourself, would you think of him as a hypocrite? Well as I was reading your discussion that is what spoke to me about what I need to be taken up with. Sorry that I spoke out of turn, it’s fine with me if you want to discuss all the wrongs of others. Have at it. I’ll stay out of your discussions and wisdom of the popular songs.
@amen. Close your eyes to right and wrong, good and evil at your own peril. Carry on.
Since you don’t like song verses (other than Hymns Old and New I presume), I will share some wisdom from my grandfather (a professing Sunday elder btw) which he shared with me nearly 50 years ago. ”Just remember, it is always the bad who drive out the good, it is never the other way around.” How prophetic of him.
@ watchman nice quote from your grandfather, and I’m sure it has its applications. It did bring to mind -from that time many of his disciples departed and walked no more with him..wonder what your thoughts on who was good and who was bad?
@Amen. Good question. Here is the red letter answer about judging who is good and who is bad:
“So [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”
More red letters. We are called to “judge righteous judgement”, meaning to be keen to recognize right from wrong, good from evil.
You won’t get anywhere by asking me to judge who is right or wrong as that is outside my wheelhouse, but you may get an answer for what is right or wrong as I am called to discern that. We are all called to discern that.
I think he paid a fine and did some jail time for his indiscretion? Shall we crucify him, too?
After the cult is gone and all that is left is some empty convention buildings, too many sexual abuse survivors and a bunch of overseers in the pokey, it would be good to have an Amen type around to remind everyone what a cult groupie really looked like.
Always in defense of the indefensible, spouting company verbiage and toeing the line right into the eye of the whirlpool. But in all honesty, when the last of cult is finally gone, it will be a relief.
The vapor of the dreadful past, the pain of realizing you have been duped, the suffering can finally be forgotten, and the sunrise over a new day can be felt and enjoyed. Amen has shown what a good cult member is, and the reminder what a good cult person I was, now it’s time to turn the page. The Amen types show how hollow the drum that they are pounding on really is.
hi ‘hollow as a drum’
Their potential place of retirement in the pokey – understand that slang would be only understood in North America.
If in the land downunder, that slang would maybe have a slightly different connotation. It would be less prophetic – because as I see it, they are already standing at the pokeys and pulling the levers. Quite energetically at that as I would detect it.
And sure as shooting, the pokeys are a wonderful washing machine. In goes the dirty, out comes the clean. Voila!
ok Amen
Which would you like – you are wrong or we are wrong? Only in quantum physics can you have it both ways at the same time.
Whatever though. Sounds good either way Amen
@mark, obviously you are right. Right?
Amen
Why the insecurity in your writings? You might not see it or believe it, but it is shown in your writings.
You are an old man now – you even told me. You said you were 24 years my senior. The people in my workplace even call me old.
Is there something in your own past, maybe even in your distant childhood that you have buried with effort, in order to have some semblance of ‘walking on top’ and having things ‘all under control’?
I am only the asker. I come not to tell your fortune.
@maek, like you said earlier, you don’t know my heart and I certainly don’t know yours. I have a hard enough time even figuring out what turned you so bitter. I know you are not bitter you just ask questions. You mention something happening 3 1/2 years ago that you?did that made you decide to not take part. You mentioned people sitting around the table talking about what you did but they didn’t tell the whole story? Lately you mentioned Johnathan not coming? I can fit so many scenarios into all of that, but it’s none of my business. You mentioned wanting to help those in the ditch. I thought that was the goal of all of us. It made me think back of those in our area that were in the ditch. That’s where I was found, and yes I was glad to hear of a savior that could help me out of the ditch, one who had an open gate, one who was the only gatekeeper. Yes I have known many through my years who have faltered and fallen into the ditch. And I have been thankful that there were those who never gave up trying to bring them out of the ditch and back to the gatekeeper. Just this past year I have joyed over 3 in our area who have been helped out of the ditch.
As I have said in the past to the consternation of many I don’t personally know any CSA/SA victims in this area, so I can’t help them out of the ditch if that is where they are, but I have known many who put themselves in the ditch by their own fleshly lust and unfaithfulness to their wives or husbands. In my experience the numbers are about equal for each sex. Yes some of them are still in the ditch and think they are happy to be there. Thankfully many of them have been helped back out of the ditch by many hands and prayers and now once again love the gatekeeper.
I could go on to what I consider the next worse cause after CSA/SA that has put people in the ditch, broken up families, left children without a father, or without a mother, causing documented difficulties in the normal development of the children. But I had better leave that to another time. Hint the King James writers changed Jesus words from put away to divorce. Look it up for yourself.
It’s quite ironic that on an article about another worker being a sexual predator that Amen still uses the company terms when he talks of the “straight gate “. Amen has even said weeks after he came from the outside and professed that the workers came by and told him all about how the religion started and founder, William Irvine.
The vast majority of multi generational members were not privy to the William Irvine information until relatively recently, William Irvine was never a part of any discussion anywhere in the group at any setting. Yet new convert, with no ties to the group, was given the William Irvine story. It is an interesting story that Amen tells about the workers being forthright with him, but not believable.
Then Amen says that the workers told him that the workers told him the people who fled the persecution in Rome and went to the mountains were the missing link to William Irvine. There are many problems with this theory not the least there was a almost 2000 year gap between the two time periods.
There is a lot of information available if anyone is curious about the 2000 years gap, but if you’re an Amen you just buy whatever the workers are selling. A very simple and straightforward book, Rose Book of Bible Charts, Maps, and Time Lines, outlines the very real history of Christian history from the time of Christ to present. There was no 2000 years gap.
Those with an agenda though somehow have to tie William Irvine to something. William Irvine seems to be the new apostle. I wonder if William Irvine could heal the lame so they could walk, help the blind see again, raise people from the dead….
If Amen heard about William Irvine, why was his name never mentioned to me, being a multi generational member dating back to the days of George Walker, William Irvine’s main man in the USA? If William Irvine came from the apostles and set up the way after being dormant for 2000 years, why has the church scrubbed him from their ranks and history, except of course, for letting Amen know?
There’s so many questions and so few answers. That’s “the way” it’s always been — and don’t ask questions, or you’ll question yourself right out of the “truth “!!!
I assure you that what I tell you on this site about my experiences is true. You don’t need to believe me anymore than most didn’t believe the victims for so many years. So call me a lier and continue on your downward course.
By the way. Yes I was told about William Irvine a long time ago. That doesn’t mean I agree with what he believed or did. He obviously quickly left and went astray, living in Israel waiting for the second coming of Christ. He was just a man.
I have not read the history book you mentioned, I assume it is similar to the Pilgrim Church which I have read. He points out that history book writers need to be very careful because it is the victor that writes history. Rome was the victor putting all others to death along with most of their writings.
“I have not read the history book you mentioned, I assume it is similar to the Pilgrim Church…” Anyone who wants to know truth should never “assume”. Assume means you think you know when you really don’t know. The two books being discussed are not the same. Not even similar.
Independent thinking in the individual brain, that each of us were blessed with, should be a joy to use. Many people are complacent and prefer not to think. They just assume. What they hear from the workers is the ” truth”. Even the Winnie Pooh quotes. They will not ever take a simple suggestion from someone who is not. Just assume they know better.
@ assume. If we have two history books that are different then I assume one is right and one is wrong? Or am I assuming in err again? Maybe all history is not really true? I wonder do you suppose that some history books can be written with an altered motive? I can see I need to disappear from the scene .
“@ assume. If we have two history books that are different then I assume one is right and one is wrong? Or am I assuming in err again?” You are assuming in error again. …Both books provide good information.
One book is meandering, long and somewhat difficult read, providing a comprehensive history of the church from the apostolic age to the twentieth century. The other provides very precise, detail of people, years at which events occurred, countries where Christianity spread to and when and is very easy to follow.
More information is better, not less information. Read both accounts of the history and you’ll be better for it. A person interested in anything can gain knowledge from more sources, not less. As an example, if you’re interested in the western expansion of the U.S., read the accounts from both the Indian perspective, and the settlers view point. Very different views and both accurate.
The workers came into our home and saw Bible books for kids that told the stories from a view point that a child could understand. These were the books that were once found in doctor and dentist office waiting rooms. That is where I first was able to understand the Bible as a young child. The workers told us to get rid of “those books”. We should only have the Bible.
These “books” were the Bible to me at that young age. The stories were very real and connected with me. The same now as “study Bibles” are a big benefit. If other resources are not used, A person is only holding captive their own knowledge. If a person only reads the Bible and listens to workers preach on it, there is a large amount of information that is missing, and can be discovered by sources that have much more information and knowledge about the historical, political and cultural norm when the scriptures were written.
If you want more information and knowledge you will have to dig for it. Take a class at he local community college, read more books on the topic, talk to people who have studied the subject in detail from all perspectives. I would suggest though, not to get rid of “those books” like we did at the workers request. We threw out valuable information our kids could have learned from. And I would suggest not to just listen to the workers. The workers do not know the rest of the story, as the great Paul Harvey always used to say
@Don’t Ask Questions – I don’t think the William Irvine story has been kept as big of a secret as people think. Perhaps in certain parts of the country or world that could be the case, but I remember a worker coming from Ireland or Scotland, and he asked Therold Sylvester if he could share the story that he knew about it all, at Miltown Convention. That was in about 1975. However, the “people in that fled to the mountains” theory has been debunked. Irvine had no part with those people or any decendents of those people, he was raised in a church, joined up with the Faith Ministry and kept making changes until and then there were more changes after he was sent back from this country…and it just amazes me, that so many people even then bought into this faith, when Jesus said, by this shall all men know that you are my disciples by the love that you show one to another…and yet, they were FIGHTING amongst themselves ALL the time!!! To the point that they even tried to kill Cooney, because HE wanted to follow Jesus teachings, and THEY didn’t! Not that I’m putting a plug in for Cooney, he didn’t really understand all the scripture either. If Amen really wanted to know what the Scripture was saying, he’d go back and read through the Gospels and do a study on the ministry. The only time Jesus sent his disciples two together was when he sent them out together to preach to the lost house of Israel, and when they came back a short time later, they came back to their homes and to meet with Jesus. Then, when he sends the 70 out, it’s a completely different scenario. So, the ministry that William Irvine set up (the one Amen has his faith in) is NOT of God. It’s hard to grasp, I know…I had to go back and reread what I had just read of the two accounts myself…and then, I went through some serious levels of grief and betrayal, and wasn’t sure even where to turn. But, when I have spoken to some of the workers…they have the same issues I do…the ministry isn’t right, because there’s NOTHING right about what they are doing. It’s as false a religion – started by a man named William Irvine, as every single other religion on the face of this planet is. God is doing this (bringing all of this out in the open) in hopes we will draw close to HIM and not cling to the workers, meetings, or any other idol from this religion.
@Henoffour. I am truly sorry to read the conclusions you have come to. It is interesting what you have heard about Irvine. Concerning what you said about those who fled to the alps having no connection with William Irvine you are absolutely correct. I don’t think I made any such implication. I was simply pointing out that there are traces throughout most of the dark ages of small groups of believers that met together outside of the mainstream religions of that day. It’s not debunked it is documented in the book, the Pilgrim Church.
Concerning your feelings about whether Jesus intended for the ministry to continue to go forth similar to how he sent the 12 and 70, of course there is no proof one way or the other. If as you say the 12 returned to their homes, I personally would wonder why we have the following exchange between Peter and Jesus on their final ascent to Jerusalem.
27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?28 ¶ And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
To me these words of Jesus concerning the ministry and following him have no time limit. He says every one that does this. The only alternative to me is that we each decide to do it the way we want to. There are plenty doing that today. Yes the 12 were originally sent only to the Israelites. The 70 were sent to every place where he would be. In the great commission they were sent to the whole world. He gave no specific instruction how they were to go in that commission, so some believe they were then free to go as they pleased and just ignore his previous instructions and some don’t believe that. At this time we are all free to believe as we want.
“…the ministry isn’t right, because there’s NOTHING right about what they are doing. It’s as false a religion – started by a man named William Irvine…”
Why do people that professed through William Irvine, and are still hanging on in the group he started, celebrate the 2 x 2 system and the messenger (the worker) far above the message and the One who brought that message?
Answer: the 2 x 2 system is simply that, the man made 2 x 2 system. That is the central feature of the group, with the workers occupying all the upper tiers. THEIR sacrifice, suffering and humility, not Christ Jesus. He was displaced by the WORKER and the 2 x 2 system. Henoffour is right.
Do not know why crackpot theories like hiding out in the Alps are being discussed – this has NOTHING to do with CSA/SA. This is starting to get way too crazy. Reminds me of the goofy “root theory” that some cult members still bellyache about.
Amen is, how does one put it, ignorant. He says, “Yes I was told about William Irvine a long time ago. That doesn’t mean I agree with what he believed or did. He obviously quickly left and went astray”. He joined the religion, heard about William Irvine, did think William Irvine was dealing with a full deck, passed his psychological problems off as gone astray, and then follows along with the astray group. Amen is the perfect groupie. Amen is the same mindset as William Irvine. William Irvine was the crazy man following his own crazy beliefs. Amen is the crazy man following the crazy man. All one and the same. Crazy following the crazy.
” I was told about William Irvine a long time ago. That doesn’t mean I agree with what he believed or did“.
William Irvine was the founder, the brain child, the ONE person everyone else professed through in the “truth”. Everyone after that came into the group came by William Irvine, even Amen and yet Amen states, ” I was told about William Irvine a long time ago. That doesn’t mean I agree with what he believed or did “.
To spend your life immersed in something and you don’t agree, or believe in the person that began what you are spending your life doing? Most people today in “the way” don’t know much about William Irvine, however, the overseers they do know about they, “don’t agree what they believe or do”. Just look at all the petitions to make rules changes on how sexual predators are dealt with, and the endless list of other demands.
The thing with the people in the church William Irvine started, is that the church is their identity. It started with William Irvine making sure people were connected and felt as they belonged. Have them all dress alike and they will all feel a oneness. Have the people so busy with meetings that there will be no time to think independently. Have the ministry live with the people and that accomplishes two things; keeps people further busy, and allows the ministry to keep tabs on the intimate life people live. It is not to spend spiritual time with the people — that is not part of the “visit”. Eyes on the people is the mission.
All of this time spent at meetings, and wearing clothing you don’t like for someone, that you “don’t I agree with what he believed or did”. That does not make sense. But then, cults don’t make sense. It’s just so difficult to leave them because it is the only lifestyle you know, and change is scary. Plus, you just don’t have the time to think.
” I was told about William Irvine a long time ago. That doesn’t mean I agree with what he believed or did“. But yet, I’m willing to live my entire life to reflect what he believed and did.
I too am a multi-generational “member” of the “cult” (as expressed so emphatically on this forum”) and was always aware of William Irvine and the history of the breaking away from Irvine and Cooney etc. It is my belief that as long as what is preached and lived lines up with Christ and his word, the messenger can be from any century because The Word doesn’t change through time….The Word that was being preached was from the beginning, not Irvine. The preacher or preaching may go awry but The Word doesn’t.
Today I believe that some of the preachers and preaching in this fellowship has gone awry and feel strongly that there will be another breaking away. I agree with most here that CSA/SA must be dealt with properly with 0 tolerance and Traditions must not be the example of godliness.
I have been watching this site for a while now and was hoping that there might be some sound doctrine expressed on this forum delivered with humility and Christ likeness. Perhaps some answers or suggestions to the next steps forward. I find that the majority of comments are angry, mocking and unkind to the point of cruelty ( especially towards those that are currently “continuing on”), but no offer of anything better. There is little to no love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness…in the songs sung or the comments spoken, so, I fear the way forward will not be found here.
Please strive to keep The Father close and be the example of love and kindness to all (even those you may disagree with), that we wish was given, and want to show to the victims of CSA/SA.
Our intention at WINGS is to focus on CSA in the fellowship while keeping “2×2 neutral”. We tend to approve the vast majority of reader’s comments to avoid being accused of bias one way or the other. It is a concern that this thread has become a pro-2×2 vs anti-2×2 battleground with little discussion of the post above. How do others feel about this?
100 % agree with try a little kindness. How about just posting your findings and disabling the comments.
I am weary of comments disparaging anyone who still attends meetings, who hosts workers, gives financial support, and calling it a cult, etc. There are many who still attend but never drank the koolaid.
We’re all adults here. Just be kind.
Thank you, @wingsfortruth9 and @Try, I also agree with these sentiments.
WINGS is a crucial and rare balanced resource, and a ray of hope for many of us in these difficult times. I’m so grateful that you post both fact-based updates and thoughtful letters and statements (e.g. from Brian & Celia Hansen, Steve Paddon, and many others).
When some commenters are allowed to highjack the threads with personal bickering and insults, and repetitive and lengthy ramblings, it kind of degrades the whole site. I think it would be very fair for the WINGS admins to approve only comments that are on-topic and contribute to the purpose of the site.
(People who want to have more free-form exchanges can do so on other sites, TMB, facebook, etc.)
Not all comments are approved here although the vast majority are. WINGS exists because of CSA/SA and most posts which don’t get approved tend to fall into the category of non-topical, strong religious beliefs not CSA oriented, or personal/defamatory attacks. There are many which are borderline which get approved as we tend to err on the free speech side over the censorship side. Suppression of speech is rarely good unless it is demonstrably damaging. The reality is that a post that is disgusting to one person can be helpful to another, we all have a unique perspective of life.
That would be a good idea, IMO.
Many of these comments are very difficult to find “helpful” or “encouraging” to any victim, survivor or supporter. Unless anger and hate is “healing” to some. IDK
@Try a little kindness and @Wings9
I agree with kindness. It is the way forward, though some of us in the church don’t get it quite right all the time. But kindness with truth plus mercy will in my mind be the recipe for understanding and success. But sometimes truth does not come in a soothing wrapper.
And to the ones that just want to bash the church for sake of bashing the 2×2 church people as a whole? I believe they will get weary and walk away eventually. Their heart is not in it.
But I also realize, some very strong voices are coming from a place of pain. Unless we discern from where the voice cometh, we may be bashing the abused…one more time. And believe it or not, some of these voices will not give up. Their life is invested. They need to get the burden off their chest before they can move forward.
But in answer to Wings9 question. Here is how I feel, and it is only my point of view. The newsfeed is good because it identifies the problem in the church. But the commentary is good also because I think it helps people to drill down to the root of the problem. It helps people to understand and make a decision for themselves what they want to be. And yes, there will be bashing; it is what it is. But if everything is just in kindness, nothing will change. IMO. And if the bashing happens to be against the church as a whole, or the individual in the church that is not really part of the problem, then those people have to live with themselves.
And allowing people to air their religious or spiritual views, smooth or rough on this platform, about what might have gone wrong within the 2×2 church that we poured our life savings into so-to-speak, will help people to become clear in their own heart and mind.
After all, in my walk, hearing one side of the story kept me back from hearing the whole truth. Not many difficult situations ever got resolved with light and fluffy conversations.
And yes, the discussion can quickly get off the topic of the newsfeed, but my personal view? It does not matter. It is a discussion ground for the people; it will go where it needs to go to help people get clear and make a decision for themselves. Allowing a place for anyone in the church to engage, I think, is a very good thing. Finding a group of people that all agree, generally becomes a social affair. And the truth and the social do not mix well I find.
@try a little kindness. Thank you so much for your kind words and sage advise. Glad to hear of your experience and reaction to hearing about Irvine. Hopefully you won’t be called every name in the book like I did. I have reflected a little on why it didn’t bother me hearing about him when the reaction has been so strong from others. What I believed I had found was Christ. I could see that God first sent that message to me about himself first through some former friends of mine who found Him, and then through some men who he had called into his ministry to preach the gospel. I believed God could raise up others for the purpose of letting me hear. I also heard lots of stories about some who were used by God to help others see and hear the gospel but then lost out themselves. I remember vividly when another couple that we knew started coming to meetings after hearing our testimony, and fearing did God just use me to help them and now I will fall away. Thankfully the answer was no, you have found the savior. Hold tight.
If I may, I might be able to explain why you are getting negative reactions to your statement about being told upfront about the history. The best way to understand it is to put yourself in the shoes of the other person reacting.
It is a fact that “from the beginning” and “from the shores of Galilee” and other various forms of the idea of an unbroken succession back to Jesus was openly and frequently preached for decades. This became a pillar of faith to thousands of people (and no fault to them as they got this concept as children). This idea of succession and the dearth of knowledge of the beginnings in the 1890’s was commonplace in the 1960’s, 1970’s, and into the 1980’s. In the 1980’s, the book, The Secret Sect began to get circulated among the Friends. It was hugely controversial. It upset a lot of people, a lot of people denied it and called it all lies, and many would refuse to consider any of its information. With the inception of the internet and good work of Cherie Kropp, the history is now well documented although there are still pockets of resistance to acceptance of it.
Now to why you are getting negative reactions. When you say something like ….oh I knew about the history all along, a long time ago….. the listener feels you are denying their reality because in fact it was not their experience and they know it was not the experience of the vast majority of B&R Friends. They heard the preaching many many times. The truth is, your circumstance is much more of an anomaly than commonplace. By stating your experience without validating the experience of others, it feels like gaslighting to them.
Hopefully that offers a bit of insight as to where others are coming from.
BGM, thanks much for your explanation. It reflects much of my thoughts over the past few hours. We do have to honor and accept that we all are on different journey, with God.
Try a Little Kindness says, “…some answers or suggestions to the next steps forward. I find that the majority of comments are angry, mocking and unkind to the point of cruelty ( especially towards those that are currently “continuing on”…”
There have been many suggestions on how to step forward. Henoffour has been very clear that doing away with the workers would be a good first step. Zero tolerance towards sexual predators would be another reasonable step. For those “continuing on”, not to be unkind, where are you continuing on to? That sounds like recently an overseer apologizing for another worker sexual molester said something about, ” continuing on in this way”. What is “this” way?
If you were referencing “so confused” when you titled your post, “try a little kindness”, please point out the lack of kindness. Truthful? Yes. What is not kind is the ONGOING sexual abuse of children, the very innocent among us, by men cloaked in something that they are saying is sent from God. Try to have a little kindness and respect children. Children are the closest thing to God that we have to experience on this earth and they are being treated like they are disposable, to be used and discarded. That’s sick!
It is so backwards, so upside down, so twisted and mangled that it does not deserve kindness. The system set up by William Irvine is dangerous. If anyone wants to continue on in that program with all that has floated to surface after all those shark attacks, you are going to need more than kindness. Not truly believing in the name of Jesus and only invoking His name now and then, where you’re continuing on to is not a good place.
Hi kindness?,
I am surprised to find myself writing here again in an attempt to answer your questions and with a hope of clarifying my original comments you have issue with.
I did state that there must be 0 tolerance when dealing with CSA/SA. I also suggested in my last sentence to “be the example of love and kindness to others that we wish and want to show to the victims of CSA/CA.” So for much, you and I are on the same page!
As far as “continuing on”, that was simply a way of describing those that are still members of this fellowship. And No, I wasn’t particularly referencing “so confused”, or anyone in particular for that matter, when writing “try a little kindness”, Just generally, and now I see that I wasn’t the only one feeling that.
I don’t consider myself continuing on in any program or system set up by William Irvine. His existence in history does not validate or invalidate one’s service to God. I will continue on in what lines up with Christ and the Scriptures. I enjoy fellowship and the unity but I, alone, am responsible for the ‘service I render each day’.
In danger of putting myself out there for push back: “Doing away with workers” carte blanche however, I don’t agree with. Doing away with those that are predators absolutely agree!! If I am God fearing I hope I would never judge the place or the purpose God has for those workers who advocate for victims of abuse and that have the heart of a shepherd. Let God do his perfect work.
That being said, I do have some beginning thoughts about needful changes in the work but they haven’t ripened yet or quite solidified.
Hope we can find agreement again on another page.
Try a Little Kindness,
Though I may come across as mean spirited at times about this situation in the church, I do not feel deep down that that is my heart. I took some of your comments to mean Mark S. And I am fine with that, because it sharpens my own thinking. I do believe there is someone that is close to me that is commenting that is having difficulty wrapping their head around who I really am and what I represent. I am confusing some people I am guessing because the ones on the far right and the ones on the far left may not be coming to terms with my writing.
But I will not discredit or discount the writing of those within the church or those that have left the fellowship that have strong, and maybe unsettling voices. I believe they do care and are trying to point out some things. If they did not care in a certain way, they would have vamoosed even from this platform or other platforms.
But those that are trying to defend the past and present actions of people that seem to have no care for the children (many now grown) in particular and the people in the organization in general in the present circumstance defending these actions? I personally need to move on from their voices if I sense no softening to see what might be for us to see, and hear what might be for us to hear. And I am happy to see a moniker change but soften their stance. Conversely, it is quite amazing how a moniker can change but the spirit of the writing remains the same at times.
So I say to you – this last writing is a very good writing in my estimation. Balanced in my view. Don’t be afraid to write and please don’t be fearful of the pushback. Love and truth will wash that fear away. It is actually quite amazing that work. Many things may surprise you as you pull on the thread. Many may be counting on you for your voice.
So in my opinion, good writing! – if you mean what you say and say what you mean. And if you keep trying to ripen those thoughts, they will ripen.
After 50 years of silence, I revealed my childhood sexual abuse by a professing man, to a trusted loved one. In my search for healing, I came across Wings For Truth. The informative and compassionate resources here were like a balm to my open wounds. I received comfort and hope at this site.
That was 6 years ago, before Bruer and the resulting maelstrom. I doubt I would have received the help I desperately needed if Wings, at that time, were what it is today.
Commenters, please, remember this site was created for victims of sexual assault during childhood, a horrendous act that has lifelong effects. Debates about doctrine and other topics take away its effective, helpful purpose. These discussions can take elsewhere.
Thank you Wings for the help you were to me during my time of brokenness and eventual healing. God bless you.
I have been participating in 2×2 discussion sites for literally over 25 years…..back when it started as a group email system in the 1990’s before discussion boards existed. There was a lot of 2×2 bashing back then and it is actually much more moderate today. What I discovered was that many many posters who bash the 2×2 system are coming from a place of unresolved, unhealed pain which often looks like hate, but it isn’t. I know that as I have reached out to many who seemed to be hateful “bashers”, sat down for coffee with them or chatted over the phone and found that in the vast majority of cases, it’s not about the hate, it’s about the pain of personal experiences. That is why, as a moderator here, I tend to be fairly liberal in which posts get allowed in the comment section. Pain is a poison and it only gets worse when bottled up.
I am an active member of the meetings and rarely feel offended by “bashers”, even when directed personally at me because of those experiences of getting to know those who oppose the church and the vast majority are good people.
One thing that really helped me in discussions with others, particularly those who oppose me is found in one of the Toltec wisdom agreements to never take things personally: “Things that others say and do is nothing to do with you. It is about them.” That is uncannily true. Years before that (in the 1970’s), my late sister, a talented writer, made a strange comment that “all books are all about the author”. I didn’t accept that then, but I do now for the most part and it certainly fits with the Toltec agreement.
Ideally, the Comment section here should be comments about the posted article or news items. It is not formatted well as a discussion site. There are better forums for broad discussion such as the TMB and some FB sites. Our focus is CSA/SA related to the 2×2 church but it is neither pro nor anti 2×2, it is pro child safety and victim supportive.
BGM, your post is appreciated and more than that, your time and reasoning is even more appreciated. What is called by some as ” 2×2 bashing”, could very easily be seen by others as simply exposing the fertility of the environment in which abuses are allowed to take place, and then not be brought to light.
The system of silence, and only have exposed what will project the desired image is the groups culture. That is one reason why the history of the church be known, that William Irvine not be erased from the groups history as the founder, but celebrated.
The culture of secrecy runs deep in denying William Irvine’s place in the group as founder, and that same secrecy is what has allowed the sexual abuses, spiritual abuses and other un-Godly behaviors to run rampant unchecked. If William Irvine is denied and lied about, where do the lies stop? They won’t.
The debates might be heated at some times, and may be uncomfortable for some. If that is the case it would seem self examination is needed to find why the conversation is making one uncomfortable.
The victims always need a voice. And the environment that is fostering the conditions for more victims, needs to be exposed. In exposing this environment the status quo will be upset. Without changing how it has always been done, nothing will change, including the abuse of victims.
BGM, again, thank you for your contribution and efforts! There are not unnoticed.
BGM- I appreciated your post and agree, this is a nugget of wisdom that the sooner we learn the better.We understand there is going to be some comments about the 2×2’s doctrine and culture that made the incidence of child abuse higher but as you said, there are other sites that accommodate lengthy debates on it.Thanks again for this valuable site Wings For Truth🌷
All I can say, what a horrible corruption and denial to say the least!
There was a note that, “Debates about doctrine” are not helpful to sexual abuse survivors. Doctrine is the set of beliefs held and taught by the church. Doctrine is the soil, or the environment in which abuses are allowed to take root. If the doctrine is weak on removing sexual predators there will always be the cycle of more sexual abuse victims. The doctrine is extremely important and something that needs to be exposed and discussed, unless you just want a continuous supply of victims, like the present situation and the way it has been since the church inception 120 years ago. If the doctrine, or the set of beliefs held and taught by the church, does not change and remains the same, be prepared to hear about many, many more people who have been sexually abused on Wings For Truth. And the commentary from those still in the group, they don’t want change to doctrine, so there inevitably will be more sexual abuse and it is completely unacceptable and unnecessary.
Your comment is important. In terms of safety of children and vulnerable adults, doctrine does indeed play an important part. To clarify, WINGS does not exist to debate the efficacy of F&W doctrine in terms of salvation or eternity. It exists to identify doctrine that raises the risks of abuse. Doctrine is not the only factor in the risks to vulnerable members, there are four significant factors, of which doctrine is arguably the least important, but not unimportant at all.
Four main safety risks:
1. Polity. This is the hierarchical system. All readers here know how it works. Members, 2IC elders, Elders, female workers, brother workers, overseers. There are numerous risk factors in this system, primarily the absence of accountability.
2. Culture. This includes the patriarchal nature of the culture. The culture of secrecy, ie lack of transparency. There is a culture of exclusive brotherhood as well. The elevation of ministers’ esteem. All are risky.
3. Doctrine. Doctrine such as “a faith that questions not” is hugely risky. The exclusivity (only way) doctrine may well be the most risky of all doctrines.
4. Practices. The home-stay system raises risks considerably.
That is just a snippet of risks in our church. (yes I am an active member). There are more risks.
There is much more and most likely worthy of a full article to identify all the risks.
BGM – a very good synopsis of the reason for the present conundrum in the church – the present conundrum we now know was always there. Well articulated in your writing.
I kind of have put these factors under a blanket or umbrella issue, namely, every one in the hierarchy, or polity as you put it, wanted a piece of the control over the next lower step on the ladder, right down to the members. And the members are burdened with a lot of levels of management overhead – none of which are accountable to any man, except the next rung up. Top rung? Accountable to no man either. But I surmise?… accountable to God…..one day.
The polity wanted control over the church members. Evidently it was permitted. And maybe even planned.
“100 % agree with try a little kindness. How about just posting your findings and disabling the comments”.
It appears there might have been a little too much truth in the “comments”.
BGM, your reply is fascinating. It would be very interesting and worthwhile for points that you raised to be discussed in more detail. For instance, touching on polity, culture, doctrine, and practices are subject matter not many people know much about, outside of some who have a college education in social science.
Just talking about culture and monoculture is an area that needs more explanation and shown the importance of. A cultural norm codifies acceptable conduct in group; it serves as a guideline for behavior, dress, language, and demeanor in a situation, which serves as a template for expectations in the social group. The culture is the standard for what is normal, to the people who are in that group.
Monoculture is when the group thinks that their cultural practices are superior to those of other groups and is often related to the concept of ethnocentrism which involves judging another culture groups based on the values and standards of one’s own culture. A cultural group, no matter how twisted and obscure, can quickly become normal to the people if they are immersed in a particular culture. The more time spent in a given culture the more tolerant and normal the culture becomes, and the less normal, or strange the viewpoints, and even dress appears to be outside that cultural bubble.
Much could be said also about polity, doctrine and practices. All of these factors can and do have a huge impact on the reasons that people do what they are doing and how they think. What they do and how people think is not independent to the person in many cases. The monoculture they live in, in many cases will occupy such a significant amount of the time available in their lives, the monoculture becomes their life. The same with polity, doctrine and practices. All can and do have huge significance on how humans behave and live from how people dress to the hair styles that they wear. Accepted standards for every facet of life becomes normal and independent, or individual thinking is not tolerated.
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Monoculture – another good writing with insight – in my estimation.