Dear Friends,
We would like to give you a progress report on our response to CSA and SA within our fellowship in MN and IA. One year ago, many of us became aware this problem was greater than we realized. Others were relieved that the magnitude of the problem they saw was validated. None of us, friends or workers, want abuse of any kind happening to our children or adults. We will help and support victims. We do not want perpetrators to have the opportunity to abuse. We intend that our times of fellowship, whether in homes, meetings, conventions, or anywhere else, will be safe.
We have taken known perpetrators out of meetings to create safer spaces for children and victims. Some of our friends are working on a nonprofit to provide financial support for survivors. The website forthat is UOA (unitedopenarms.org). We have started education as a staff through a two-day in-person workshop. The workers are remaining current with MinistrySafe certification. We encourage everyone in our fellowship to take the course and review it regularly. Bob and Sheri Lundstrom are looking after that and can be contacted at IAMNSafe@gmail.com.
We sent all of you the attached policy in May of last year. That policy was based on our experience at the time. Since then, other situations have also been brought to light. This policy helped us with some of those. In other cases, we have found that working with local deacons and listening to the affected individuals and meetings has helped us find direction.
Those experiences showed us we need to expand some portions of our policy and refine others. We are actively working on guidelines to accomplish that and we appreciate all the efforts of many people already. GRACE was able to provide some content and direction in this effort and will help us in the future as needed. We want people to be heard when in distress. We want all adults, children, and families to feel safe in meetings. For those who have faced such evil, it must be clear how to report to appropriate professionals and the fellowship. Everyone must be confident those reports will be heard and responded to within our fellowship.
We are very conscious of special meetings starting next week. With a number of additional workers in the area we have heard your concerns about safety. As Roy mentioned in an earlier email, prior to inviting any of them to our region, we vetted them for existing allegations. In our planning we are limiting workers being alone for visits.
We have heard your pleas for better communication within the fellowship. We want the same. We have appreciated Roy’s email communication and plan to continue that with the staff and friends. To help with that, we have started monthly video meetings with the staff. This email is part of our communication effort. We are grieved that people have been abused. We want to assure you we care and are committed to safety within our fellowship.
With care,
The Minnesota and Iowa Staff
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I like that the team acknowledged that some gaps and weaknesses in the policies were found and they recognize that changes need to be made to the policy. I think that they also realize that any policy is always a work in progress and needs to be changed from time to time.
I am fully aware the overseers were offended by it being suggested that they all step down after decades of abuse within our fellowship, some of it by these very overseers, workers & elders they appointed. The Overseers have been aware of many of the abusers and continued moving them from state to state, repeatedly without telling the Friends for much of their existence.
Now they want ask the friends to fund a group which will not make any policy stands against the ministry or overseers.
I believe it is important AFTT know of all the perpetrators being reported on the abuse hotline so the picture is as complete as possible. Not having this information could interfere with stopping perpetuators & holding such abusers accountable. Not my goal.
Any donations I make will be to AFTT who has applied to DOJ for a 1.3 million dollar grant to fund the abuse hotline, 2 investigators and counseling for abuse survivors from our fellowship. There will be adequate funding, for now.
I seek healing for all abuse survivors & they have my 100% support, love, and desire to help them in every way including my donations through AFTT.
This is gaslighting by the ministry.
Why might the 2 x2 ministry wish to obstruct investigations with the FBI now involved?
You hit the center of the target! AFTT DOES need all donations. Yes, they have applied to DOJ, but they have not received the money as of yet. If you go onto the Advocates For The Truth website, Cynthia has posted the cost for just ONE victim over their lifetime…there are thousands of victims, so they are going to need literally billions to cover it all. They need every dime they can get, and not a one are being paid for all they are doing. It is their stand right now to use ALL the money donated on helping the victims. Setting up another fund, is just detracting from what she’s already got going…and could make the money donated within that state accessible by the ministry? Plus, Cynthia has trusted counselors and therapists that can provide the help these victims need, that are in no way connected to this fellowship. The ministry doesn’t need to be the ones choosing who the victims see!
GoFundMe takes .30 per donation transaction. Pretty cheap.
If you pair it with the story of abuse to kids & adults by William Irvine’s ministry – there would likely be significant donations to help the abused until AFTT receives the DOJ grant. It would further help the public become aware of this issue & help those who were abused get the care they need asap!
As a fellowship we can easily switch our support $ to help those William Irvine’s ministry model has harmed, via donations to AFTT.
spell check errors. Perpetrators!
much of the fellowship’s existence.
At the risk of being called a scribe, may I add a paragraph to the above letter. I realize that scribes can be an unsavory bunch with a tendency to tweak the writer’s intent and add their own innuendo to suit their thought of the day, or someone else’s convincing opinion, but I will take the lumps. And I am sure others, like the mothers in the fellowship could improve on this paragraph. I am very happy and even encourage mothers or fathers or grandparents to provide a paragraph of their own to plug the loophole in the above letter. I am not saying the above letter is not very good, because it is actually the best I have seen so far. An admission of a stinking savor rising up from the organization, and some sense of motivation to do something about it. But there is a loophole – and loopholes are not noticed, until they are breached.
May I take the liberty to add:
And to the parents with children, watch for them and watch over them. They are vulnerable. They may not be able to tell you what is going on, because they may not comprehend what is going on. And if one of the workers or other shows even a wee bit of promotion of the enterprise in their words, remove yourself and your family far from them. There is guile in their words. They have succumbed to a force that was from way back, is not seen, but yet is. They will not have yours, nor your family’s best interest at heart. A person cannot serve two masters.
I am also happy for any worker to chime in here. But if there is a slight bit of promotion of the enterprise, please leave your pen in your pocket. This is not a corporate marketing exercise.
I think you make an excellent point here. Promotion of the enterprise is a part of the grooming process.
@Mark S and @juliepasta, could you explain a little more clearly what you mean by “promotion of the enterprise” for those who might not understand this phrase?
I think it could mean promoting the form of worship or fellowship that we use (homeless/celibate ministry, hierarchy with overseers having absolute authority, meeting in homes, implying this is “the only right way”, etc), rather than focusing on the recorded teachings of Jesus. Is this right?
Yes, Observer – you have the gist of it as I envision it.
Promotion or marketing is something businesses do to build their brand. They want more customers and they want more sales. They want brand recognition. Promotion to build the brand and outdo the competition will require some wordsmithing of the message.
When a corporation is launching a new shampoo, the ads will come out with a beautiful woman with flowing locks and the message will be, ‘you will turn heads – you will be noticed’. Some very sharp people in marketing. They know what appeals to human nature, and it works. Or they may use words like ‘we have the secret formula’. Nobody else knows. Some very subtle messaging in marketing that viewers and listeners do not even pick up on.
The same goes for promoting religious enterprise. “We are the ones”. “This is the only ship on the seas sailing to heaven”. “We have what everyone else missed”. “We are the only ones with the Master’s ear”. “You need to come through our door to get to His Door”. “If you climb up some other way, you will be a thief and a robber”. “You need to stay inside the fellowship or you are euchred”. “We know what is best for you”. “Follow us, we will guide you”. “You can trust us”. “You need us”. “We will feed you and you will be content in our pastures”. “We are the only ones sanctioned by heaven to bring Light to the souls of man”. “We are one as He is”. Etcetera, Etcetera, Etcetera, ad infinitum – whatever works. Some of it very subtle – not even the messenger realizes.
Human nature has a weakness. It wants to belong to something. An association with a group that thinks the same way. To be accepted by others. Often people do not want to be discerning and have critical thinking. It is too hard to dig for the pearl of great price – how be you spoon feed it to me; I am quite busy – and knocking, asking, and seeking takes too much of my time. They want someone to tell them what truth is. It hurts their head to think too much. So in religious enterprise, the ‘truth’ and the ‘social’ are very amicable bed partners; but unfortunately only when under the covers. In public, the ‘social’ is the master, the ‘truth’ is the mistress.
But the thing about any smidgeon of promotion of the religious enterprise, it deceives people into believing the intermediary between the Bridegroom and the Bride is necessary. It becomes a smidgeon of discount to the Master. The beast has prevailed. He has met his objectives – he has tapped the thin edge of the wedge between the Bridegroom and the Bride. The beast is quite okay with mankind searching the trappings of religious enterprise – the beast will work his work in religious enterprise when someone begins to search the Mind of Christ though. People say they are following Christ, but are they maybe following Him vicariously through the leaders of the enterprise? The beast wants us to fall down and worship his image, the graven image, graven by man’s hand that religious enterprise has promoted as the Image of God. A marriage of convenience for sure, but was it a marriage consummated in heaven? The enterprise and the image are codependent on one another. Without religious enterprise, the image would have never been a thing. Without the image, religious enterprise would never have been able to ‘buy and sell’ a form of truth. And yes, religious enterprise of every brand would like to shoot me for saying this.
Some people are referring to the 2×2 religion as a cult. I get where they are coming from. To me, I never considered it a cult. But last year at Seagrave, I went for one day. With all that was going on in the church and the seeming blindness and paralysis of the leadership around the world, I did not figure I could stomach any more than that. The last speaker on Sunday had cult written all over his speech. He might have given Christ an honorable mention, but I cannot say for sure; I tuned out part way through his promotion of the enterprise.
Mark S. That is a pretty good assessment of “the enterprise”. (I have long called it “the system”).
Also your description of the exclusivity doctrine is very good. It is viewed as a top virtue among workers and most Friends when in fact, it is evil and the root of so many abuses in the fellowship. Nothing but dysfunction comes from the exclusiveness.
thank you for the addition!
I find the above letter interesting however I agree with Ptackitt. As a survivor I was told by email from Barry Barkley. Any assistance would have to come from AFTT . I wish these folks would learn to tell the truth. I too will donate to AFTT thanks for the great job they do. A survivor
This letter sounds like a five alarm fire with all stations alerted and smoke everywhere, but nobody knows exactly where the fire is.
”We are very conscious of special meetings starting next week. With a number of additional workers in the area we have heard your concerns about safety. As Roy mentioned in an earlier email, prior to inviting any of them to our region, we vetted them for existing allegations. In our planning we are limiting workers being alone for visits”.
It’s understandable that there might be some pedophiles and sexual predators slipping around and lost in crowds at such events, such as a special meeting or convention. At this time, with all that has happened, and all the exposure, workers are still considered to be a major threat?Workers, the very driver of the way, are the catalyst for concern?
How can spiritual leaders give spiritual edification when their own audience doesn’t trust them? The workers are supposer to be in charge of putting out the fires, when maybe they are the very fire everyone fears. There is definitely smoke, but where is the next Dean Bruer?
@ Fire – the quickest way to end this. Call the location of your Special Meeting, and warn them.
Tell them that this group is being investigated by the FBI, and that it will be NECESSARY for them to have Law Enforcement present (which is an added cost to that location) to protect all the children and vulnerable women would could be onsite, either with this group or passing by or on a playground. Send them this link so they can varify by calling the hotline number that’s listed on this form page: https://forms.fbi.gov/2×2
Henoffour, this is VERY good information to have and know!
“Call the location of your Special Meeting, and warn them…Tell them that this group is being investigated by the FBI, and that it will be NECESSARY for them to have Law Enforcement present…send them this link so they can varify by calling the hotline number that’s listed on this form page: https://forms.fbi.gov/2×2”
This also goes for gospel meeting room rentals.
I am very disappointed that AFTT is not mentioned anywhere in this letter. Why reinvent the wheel? And why do more donations have to be gathered? Where are the funds the workers use for surgeries and such? The church that put these victims at risk needs to suffer the consequences of their actions. That is accountability. You can’t outsource support and expect people to trust the church.
This line from the United Open Arms website is very triggering: ”We are a resource you can rely on and trust.” Where have we heard that before? I heard it in a special meeting in March of 2021: ”You can trust the workers.”
”… why do more donations have to be gathered? Where are the funds the workers use for surgeries and such? The church that put these victims at risk needs to suffer the consequences of their actions. That is accountability. You can’t outsource support and expect people to trust the church…”.
This statement is spot on. The funds are already there. Of course, the workers funds are totally unaccountable for, unlike the vast majority of church groups who have a complete transparent record of their funding. Why is that?
Worldly churches are said not to be trustworthy, yet the workers are the ones that hide their funds? They play the money like it is a shell game, moving money in suitcases and putting money into accounts that can’t be tied to the church/ workers. This is a very deceptive approach to keeping money. It’s actually dishonest.
The very fact of having, “ to suffer the consequences of their actions” is a major reason for sheltering the money. If everything is unaccounted for, what is there to go after to get for therapy after a sexual abuse by a worker, or damages if the victim can no longer pursue life as before the sexual abuse?
The day is coming though when funds are going to be uncovered. They are there. The money amount will be a surprise to many. First the convention properties will be seized due to the decades of attachment to the church as a whole, then the sheltered money will begin to see the light of day to relieve the convention property owners.
Donating money to help the sexual abuse survivors is very honorable and helpful, but the money is already there in sheltered accounts and that is the money that should be going to the victims. “The church that put these victims at risk needs to suffer the consequences of their actions”.
Juliapasta: “Where are the funds the workers use for surgeries and such?” Woould it be a shock for you to know ‘your federal government pays for such’?
They declare they have no income and are homeless. Therefor they are elgible for “Medicaid”. Yes, many of them have finished their last days, either all expenses paid by medicaid in apartments or in nursing homes paid by Medicaid. Just a friendly visit with a close friend or some who helps with the paper work for the caretaker will expose this arrangement.
Yes, while the crew are fleeced at each convention!
I really don’t have a dog in this hunt, but taxpayers are “fleeced” every April for funds to help provide Medicaid for some much less deserving than ret’d “ministers”. However, those funds could also be available for suffering victims of SA. All voluntary donations to help the needy are good if you believe in charity.
Junior Jones said, “I really don’t have a dog in this hunt, but taxpayers are “fleeced” every April for funds to help provide Medicaid for some much less deserving than ret’d “ministers””. Fraud is fraud and fraud is gaming the system.
It doesn’t matter that other people are committing fraud and cheating. That doesn’t make it any more right. Committing fraud and cheating the government, and claiming medicaid when the person is completely able bodied is fraud.
Yes, it’s expected that the lower rungs of human depravity will do what they can to cheat and have no care for what is fair. To have no qualms about not playing by the rules, but enjoy living off the efforts of others. But should religious leaders be doing this?
When someone lies about one thing, it is much easier for them to lie about another thing. That goes hand in with the sexual abuse— taking something that is not theirs. Then covering that up with more lies. The belly of that beast will never be filled, and lying is an easy fix to the next problem.
See Dean Bruer and his history for a living example of living at the top of the food chain in the system, and living a complete lie. See your entry level, young, energetic and completely able bodied worker, and living off of Medicaid — and also living a lie.
Why is that? Because lying is easy and convenient. And you can get away with something that you shouldn’t.
Exactly. If you KNOW of anyone on Medicaid…turn them in to the FBI. You can not collect medicaid if there’s a “medical fund” that pays for medical needs. Whether you “earn a living” or are an itenerant minister. It’s against Federal Law, and is considered Medical Fraud.
Exactly, it should be said, “Trust NO worker” they are all strangers to everyone. This is just another attempt to discredit and take away from all Cynthia, Lauren, and Sherry (and now Dr. Bolin) have done through their VOLUNTEER work.
Scott Ross put me in contact with Laura Jelinek in 2012. I was a witness, along with 3 sister workers, on May 17th in Omaha where Laura told Ray Hoffman & Lyle S about the SA she endured by the overseer of Colorado – LW. During the discussion that followed it was very clear Ray was already aware of LW’s criminality due earlier abuses of young women within this fellowship. This abuse was of a young sister worker on his own staff at the time it happened.
Ray encouraged Laura to report the rape to local Law Enforcement where the rape had occurred, on Colorado convention grounds. Ray agreed to help pay for counseling for Laura.
Laura also told them of abuse by a sister worker RT. Her purpose in sharing was to prevent other sisters from being abused or RT being relocated. And to get RT the help she needed. I also RT’s abuse should be reported to LE.
Ray Hoffman statements that day made it clear he needed Laura to report the rape to LE have a way to get LW out of the ministry. Others have shared in the years that followed of Ray’s comments to them that it was “too bad LW had to leave the ministry, as he (Ray) wasn’t sure anything really happed.”
Laura J experienced criminal behavior by LW. This was reported to the local Law Enforcement. And she shared in the meeting with Ray Hoffman – abusive behaviors repeatedly by a sister worker, RT.
RT was moved to another state & the overseer was not notified of the history.
This continues on & on & on.
Why might the ministry be trying to gaslight the friends & obstruct abuse investigations?
I can think of 1,500 good reasons.
Abuse, repeatedly.
Ray Hoffman also had Ira Hobbs moved from Georgia to another state where a minor child had been repeatedly abused by Ira. But did he report it to LE or remove Ira from the work? He did not.
Ray did tell me he gave a suitcase full of cash to the family to get the child any needed help.
My donations will only go to AFTT.
@ptackitt it is interesting the details you have of these cases. I assume this detail was known by you some time ago. Is it fair to ask you what you did with this information?
People have been raising these issues to management for years, mostly to a brick wall. You need to understand the level of danger to children here. And don’t start with “why didn’t you report to authorities?” if you don’t understand how the legal system intakes hearsay information. What we need is basic risk management strategies.
I submitted the facts I witnessed at the May 17th 2012 mtg to the FBI.
I always knew Laura’s account on LW & RT was real. But I had no way of putting the rest of this together and the tremendous danger to children & the fellowship until recently. DBgate!
Reading the historical account detailing William Irvine’s life and those who continued his work in this ministry the last 125+ years has greatly helped me see things for what they truly are. Thank you Cheri Kropp!
It became clear to me very recently- this ministry is not part God’s planning. This was planned by men to emulate the scripture and have authority, housing, food, etc at a time when life was very hard. William Irvine added the spark to set things in motion. Sadly, it has also given such a ministry ways to access children & adults – to abuse. This is not acceptable & can not continue.
My prosecutor friend recently asked me why we would let people into our homes to spend the night, some of these folks we might not even know – as this increases risks of abuse.
Having made 1000’s of abuse / neglect reports over my career as a community health nurse & child death investigator – I did inform the ministry in MI of how to do their role as a mandated reporter. Informing them too of trainings available.
Jerome & Bill Denk didn’t have that info in time but Greg & two others have attended those CPS trainings. Both have encouraged the fellowship to report abuse to CPS & /or local Law Enforcement.
I’d like to reinforce that message. Do not take neglect / abuse issues to the ministry. Use the system as intended.
In love, Our Lord laid down his life for us to be redeemed, by Grace. Don’t worry about what happens if mtgs stop. The Lord has a plan! Trust him.
Nothing & no one should ever come between us & our savior, including the 2 x 2 ministry. William Irvine planned an experiment. It has led to tremendous damage to so many. It’s time to allow the abused to heal with love & care.
My donations will go to AFTT to help the abused, instead of continuing to add any more funds for the William Irvine ministry.
Ptackitt, thank you for the information you have provided. Your comments are very informative and enlightening. Your contribution is greatly appreciated. Also, your conclusion about the matter is very good, “Nothing & no one should ever come between us & our savior, including the 2 x 2 ministry. William Irvine planned an experiment. It has led to tremendous damage to so many”.
Our family felt the harsh reality of the 2 x 2 ministers a few years before the Dean Bruer revelation came to light. We exited before the mass exodus going on now. We felt very much alone at the time being everyone we associated with in life was still in the church, and it all moved on without us. This included all of our relatives on both sides of our family. It was like we were dumped along the trail and the rest of the wagon train continued to head west to the promised land.
Now, at present day, we are well adjusted to our new lives and God is very much present. That doesn’t mean that the damage caused by the 2 x 2 ministry doesn’t still linger. The aftermath of abuse still exists. The children that we had are now adults. God is great and He is bringing them closer. It is his timing and that timing will be good. It takes time to heal from such abuse.
Many of the people who we thought abandoned us at the side of trail, now have left the 2 x 2 group after witnessing what happened to us. What was a vibrant union sunday of about 75 people in our rural, sparsely populated area is now down in the single digits. Reality has a way of making things even. The sun does shine on a new day. The abuse didn’t win. The Lord won and the love of the Lord is going to continue to shine on those who truly seek Him. “Nothing & no one should ever come between us & our savior, including the 2 x 2 ministry”.
Thank you so much for sharing this. Appreciate you greatly & we appreciate your encouragement – the best is yet ahead! No need to fear.
Grace is usually defined as undeserved favor. Grace cannot be earned; it is something that is freely given.
This letter says about and guidelines and policy, “GRACE was able to provide some content and direction in this effort and will help us in the future as needed”.
Grace is essential for us to have a relationship with God. Without grace from Him we would have no hope.
Grace, underserved favor, should not and cannot be continually handed out to sexual predators by the people that the predators prey on.
If it is God’s desire to extend His grace, good for the predator. People, however, have got to preserve their own safety and to do so people need to identify the danger/ predator and keep that out.
The workers are to focused on extending undeserved favor to the wolf and let them back into the henhouse. Grace is for God, and thankfully we have that grace! Grace is not for us to extend to something or someone that wants to continue to be a threat to us and our family members.
GRACE (all caps) in this context is referring to an outside organization that deals with abuse in religious organizations.
By “GRACE” I think they are referring to this organization https://www.netgrace.org/ rather than the generic grace we read about in the Bible.
The letter was not clear at all when the word GRACE was used. Then not many of the letters written are clear. The reply written about grace was clearly stated, however, and also, accurate.
I recall Ray saying the suitcase held $45,000 for the child’s family.
”I recall Ray saying the suitcase held $45,000 for the child’s family”. A suitcase full of $100 bills. Once a head worker left a suitcase at my parents home for “storage”. After some time the guy came back frantically asking if they had a “suitcase “. There are a lot “suitcases” being stored.
@ Suitcase – yes, and people need to make them take their Suitcases and boxes and crates and clothing out of their closets! It’s not only money that’s being found in closets…there are workers buying high-end items, and storing them in people’s closets for future sale (and they are worth a lot more than what was paid for them, because they were coveted items)…kind of like a retirement plan, but purchased with your and my gifted money, that we thought was going to a poor incomeless ministry.
I did the math one day after a relative left the work (I have, and had, several relatives in the ministry), I was picking their brain about how things work. So, this can kind of give you an idea, and I’ll go with the least amounts and people can multiply by the number in attendance at their current meetings: So, lets say there’s ONE Gospel Meeting a week, and there’s say 100 people in attendance. After meeting, let’s say everyone gave a $10 to each worker. I know, many people give much more. That’s $1000 each X 16 weeks (the average time spent in a field) = $16,000 each. Then, every week, they on average stay two nights in each home, and we’ll say, each home gifts them each $100 each that’s an additional $300 each week from their moving around. Times 16 weeks = $4800 Then, they go and visit the elderly/shut-ins, and I know they give money, so let’s say they average $10 per visit with 4-5 visits per week, that’s an additional $40-50 each. Oh, I forgot to mention, that before they head to their fields they are given money from their overseer and that varies from state to state, but last number I heard here in my state, was $1500 to make it to their field. My numbers used are way lower than is likely, but using these numbers…that’s $22,350.00 EACH per pair, so $44,700 total. They have no vehicle purchase, insurance to pay, food costs (except the occasional meal while on the road), housing costs, or medical bills. I would like to have $22,350 a year to buy clothes and a toothbrush/toothpaste with!!! Talk about money being the root of all evil.
Thank you all.
Ray also told me they have a lot of cash.
When overseers have money for hotels & partners – we believe they need to find the funds for supporting the abuses THEY allowed to continue – for decades. Not just ask the friends who are housing the ministry currently, feeding them, providing cars, phones, internet & cash in envelopes to them – to fund it.
Friend’s will support survivors & show our love, by contributing to AFTT for the care of those who have been harmed by this ministry.
Any funds – that were to be provided to the ministry for the next 5 years, could be shared with AFTT instead, to care for the abused. Any estates that folks might be thinking of leaving to the ministry might also go to AFTT for the abused, to right some of the damage done.,
Reporting to the FBI and cooperating with them would also be extremely supportive to survivors of abuse!
These are great ideas. Besides, if the FBI takes this whole ministry down, what happens to all that hidden money? I want it to go to AFTT for the victims, and I think the ones who gave it (likely by force) would want it to as well.
henoffour: and each of you Who are learning the “COLD” truth. We try to imagine the many times we stood in line after gospel mtg. to shake hands: not realizing that something should be passed secretly onto their hands. Idle talk was impossible as needed to hurry on as someone was standing behind us with the hope of cold cash! We hurried home to get our children to bed as soon as possible for an early morning and the school Bus. BUT the visits and Conv. did cost us, dearly. That hurts now; as we gave to help the Homeless and God’s True servants from a very contrite mind and heart of worship. With “hope” there would be enough for their NEEDS.
Our brains never thought to question. So are we getting what we deserve, now, as we have this ALL spelled-out, here for us???
We are so very grateful to be able to read God’s Word ‘as written’. AND to ‘understand’ the Good-News given to Paul in Ephesians 3:1-:9; this mystery given to Paul is NOT the Good-News of the “Kingdom of Heaven on Earth” for the Nation of Israel:
BUT is Ephesians 2:4 – :9 (3:1) to the Gentiles(non-Jews)
Eph. 2:4. BUT God; :5even when we were dead in sins, HATH quickened us together with Christ, (by “grace are ye saved”;)
…….. Eph. 2:8 For by “grace” are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God
……..Eph. 2:9. NOT of “works’, lest any man should boast.
We cannot imagine NOT having this Gospel of Grace, God gave to Paul; to be our HOPE in heavenly places for all eternity.
Do not misunderstand us to say that the “promise” God gave to his chosen Nation of Israel – that Jesus and the 12 preached is not indeed a glorious perfect Kingdom on Earth, for all eternity: It Is! But is now “on Hold”. We were completely mislead, even tho we had our Bibles; never once did we doubt. That is a hard truth for us!
Thank you each and everyone for helping us walk through this ‘quagmire’ and still be able cope with our thoughts and our present lives.. Even tho ‘God lifted us out’ several years ago; and we have a REAL Hope and support; this IS wretched to realize what and who we so ignorantly worship IS “inherently” deceptive and evil. We can almost hear the cackle of inhuman voices: laughing behind our back.
In total agreement with you!
to any that question please feel free to ask AFTT for Barry Barkley’s email. He stated very clearly any assistance needs to come from AFTT. I personally approve for them and the FBI to share. Thanks a survivor named Cliff
I have seen Barry’s email to you, and I am disgusted. My thoughts and prayers are with you, and I do hope you get restitution, and the help that should have been given all those decades ago!!
Good to also note that the FBI has a copy of it as well 🙂
Yes
BGM in reply to your request for a risk management strategy –
Do NOT let anyone stay in your home who is part of any ministry that says they are homeless & must stay in your home & eat your food on an ongoing basis. Don’t accept special mtg visitors.
Do not attend conventions, special mtgs, gospel mtgs or anywhere to be repeatedly gas lit by these folks!
Do not contribute any funds or provide, cars, phones, laptops or internet for such a ministry. If they have your car, equip it with multiple trackers. Same with phones & laptops.
It does not matter if they are nice, or can preach, if it’s not of God ( Not William Irvine from the 1897 & on) it’s not legit!
it’s a spiritual fraud & you may be supporting child / adult trafficking & money laundering.
workers could preach at the county jail or a prison to inmates – WHY are they insisting on inviting convicted criminals sexual offenders into Gospel meetings with our fellowship.
If convicted sex offenders are trying to stop & stay away from children- the workers are harming the efforts of offenders to not sin / adding to their burden. This children & adults at an elevated risk. Not of God / or his son.
Gaslighting at the highest level – when they invite sexual offenders to gospel mtgs. Are the ministry getting paid to provide access to children through Porn sites?
Estates donated to the kingdom may be funding purchase of a home outside the USA to be outside our system of laws that better protect us & our children.
Worship Christ / not Idols and a false ministry perpetrated on us by William Irvine & continued by his followers today.
innocence can not be restored once lost.
We have all loved this fellowship because of our contact with God’s spirit by serving Christ, not man. That has not changed!
This ministry not God planned, don’t be fooled. It may have fooled our parents or grandparents, don’t let it fool us or let the abuses continue.
These are all excellent points ptackitt. Thank you for stating them.
I’m wondering if you might have some additional points to add?