MinistrySafe has been recommended by many churches and has been used by ours for a number of years to show that a worker has been educated on child abuse issues. While MinistrySafe provides good content, it does not offer complete CSA training per se; dealing with allegations and caring for victims is not where they have expertise and where more work needs to be done within the church.
Their website states:
MinistrySafe was founded by legal professionals and sexual abuse experts, Gregory Love and Kimberlee Norris. Through their litigation practice representing victims of child sexual abuse, they recognized a vital need to equip churches and ministry programs to better protect children from sexual abuse.
With over 60 years combined experience in sexual abuse litigation, consultation and crisis management, Love & Norris understand the risk of sexual abuse and how it unfolds in ministry programs.
There are a number of articles written that share concerns about MinistrySafe. Here’s some examples:
(NYT link gifted for 30 days; after that a NYT subscription will be required)
Extracts from NYT Article:
The firm, which advertises a “victim-centric” approach, offers training on child safety and sex-abuse prevention to churches that are eager to show they are up to date on how to protect their congregations. Many church members trust that if their congregation uses MinistrySafe, it must be to benefit victims.
… Ms. Norris and her husband are lawyers, and they have an associated legal practice to manage crises and minimize risk for clients. MinistrySafe’s website offers legal consultation, and those services are provided through Ms. Norris’s law firm, Love & Norris.
Some survivor advocates have raised concerns about how churches employ MinistrySafe services after abuse has been reported.
MinistrySafe may address legal risks for churches, but it does not help promote greater transparency as part of its response to abuse, said David Pittman, a survivor.
WINGS has had numerous resources listed for more than 10 years. See Resources
Some might not be available now, but we haven’t had time to review them all.
Some well-known sites are:
RAINN: Rape, Abuse & Incest Network ~ Largest US anti-sexual assault organization
STOP IT NOW! [USA] and STOP IT NOW! [UK; Available in 27 languages]
At WINGS we are grateful for readers who critique our work, so please send us your thoughts on MinistrySafe and any suggestions you may have for CSA training courses.
Email wingsfortruth@googlegroups.com or leave a comment below.
In the meantime, here are two additional CSA courses that we have heard good things about:
1. https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jimmyhinto5/extras
2. https://www.netgrace.org/online-training
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As soon as I completed the MS training, I contacted my overseer to thank him, and beg for more training! I thought it was a good start, but doesn’t go nearly far enough
They do a fairly good job of teaching how to recognize abuse, but that’s about as far as it goes.
When the workers talk about we are “Ministry Safe Certified” it’s like they are looking for a gold star because they have done some great thing. It’s a bare-bones minimum effort. Books like Predators, Pedophiles, Rapists and other Sex Offenders by Anna C. Salter, PHD is a good way to learn how to understand the workings of the brains of predators who commit these horrible crimes. Another good book is Tearing Down This Wall Of Silence: Dealing with Sexual Abuse In Our Churches by Dale Ingraham and Rebecca Davis – this one gives very Godly, Scripturally based advice, one how a predator should be handled/dealt with. I’m awestruck by the spiritual soundness of these writers, when our own ministry is so focused on the wrong thing “forgiveness”. Which is a slap in the face to God.
Henoffour, I read your comment about the resources provided by MinistrySafe. Are you willing to discuss your perspective with me directly? I am ALWAYS open to constructive discussion.
As an aside, I AGREE that Anna Salter provides some AMAZING resources.
Kimberlee Norris- Founder
kdnorris@lovenorris.com
I sent you an email 🙂
I am not that educated, but recall cult workers always preaching that “the way” or “the truth” was so simple that even a child could understand it. Think CSA is even easier to understand: don’t do it and if you know that it has occurred, report it to law enforcement. Not sure why cult workers and members cannot understand this simple concept.
It helps if one actually reads the scripture…clearly they are NOT reading the scripture, because there’s a lot of it that backs throwing the predators out!
Bucky and henoffour, you both offer simplicity and simplicity works! “It helps if one actually reads the scripture…clearly they are NOT reading the scripture…”
Read the Bible and know it (this is a “religious” group after all) and then truly apply it.
First off in a religious group that has God as the head, there should not be mischief. Or very little of it. Especially SEXUAL ABUSE!
IF there is a sexual assault, remove that member immediately, bar re-entry and focus on helping the victim. When that is done, without quavering and consistently, it would not be long before the problem is resolved.
Trouble is, the leadership doesn’t know scripture, instead just opening the Bible and where it opens, they “speak” from that scripture, not knowing the context, culture, history and customs and in many cases totally getting the wrong message.
Second, the leadership doesn’t want to exclude the people who have been faithful to them and their interests, therefore the sexual predator in with leadership has a lifelong membership in “the way “ regardless of their behavior.
That is the way of most religious cults, and this one is no different.
Reading it and doing it are NOT the same, in any vocation I’ve encountered.
Junior Jones, you are correct. The second paragraph of Easy Solution says, “Read the Bible and know it (this is a “religious” group after all) and then truly apply it”.
The application of what is read, or the “doing” aspect is what makes the difference.
@easy solution – I’m aware of what needs to be done and isn’t hard to do…getting the ministry to DO what is scriptural and sound is not.
The ministry just keeps abusing and keeps their heads in the sand about what to do…”just forgive them” – absolutely NOT! That’s now how you help someone who has no conscience.
I do believe the Ministry Safe course is somewhat good in that it has been an admission by the ministry that there are dark recesses in the enterprise. But likely I don’t know the reality of that – I am getting a sense their hand was forced.
But as far as functional or effective – I see it as window dressing only. It gives everyone a certificate and clouds the window into the bowels of the enterprise a little more. The bad apples didn’t even follow the playbook of guidance they preached from – the course and sweet certificate must be amusing to those individuals.
But having any meaningful effect within the enterprise for course correction? – surely we all are playing jester to the clown. The enterprise I see now is a fundamentalist society – and no, the underpinning fundamental is not what the masses have espoused it to be – even the directors do not perceive (it seems). The enterprise of religious power and authority will always convince the people the fruit from their tree is goodly fruit that will open their eyes. And holding the playbook up in their right hand, they convince the people with the words “Has God not said!” The playbook with its enterprising proxies has then subsequently convinced people they do not really have access to the Garden – and the Other Tree is really off limits or out of bounds.
But in my later years, I do not fault people for trying to make a concept work. I give them some time of spinning their wheels before I walk by their desk and ask ‘might you not be trying to push a rope up a hole?’
Good on everyone though that is trying to make a difference and bring justice to the oppressed. Oppressed by religious enterprise. I salute you all.
Friends and workers: have you honestly laid your long held and cherished notions at His feet and pleaded that He would show you His Truth? No holds barred? You might not want to wait a more convenient day to do such!
Mark S, you write some great thought provoking points. If each point was read and thought about throughly there would be some valuable insights. You noted: “The enterprise of religious power and authority will always convince the people the fruit from (THEIR) tree is goodly fruit that will open their eyes”. I might add, “if you come back to more meetings”.
You have to get to more meetings. Meetings are the keys to opening the eyes. The eyes are not open yet, but more meetings will make that happen. Not spending time alone, not praying in a closet, not reading a study Bible and really enjoying learning, but getting to meetings. More meetings. Then you’ll have your eyes opened.
After listening to the “wisdom” of a worker. A worker quoting Winnie the Pooh, or maybe talking about a road sign that was seen on the way to the meeting, or some revelation about a traffic light and how that pertains to our lives. But, keep going to ALL the meetings and you will get your eyes open. It will eventually happen. Get to one more meeting and maybe your eyes will be opened…
Mark S’s comments about religious enterprises actually apply to them all. Effectively all of them have elevated rates of lying, cheating and CSA.
Religious enterprises attract the naive and gullible. Once they have people believing the unbelievable, they’ve got them in their clutches. And this applies to them all, no matter how smooth, wonderful and “biblically correct” they appear.
It’s rather odd how many people with a 2×2 background don’t intuitively understand that and watch for it.
Watchman states, “Mark S’s comments about religious enterprises actually apply to them all. Effectively all of them have elevated rates of lying, cheating and CSA”. This is like saying ALL people are predators, liars and cheats as ALL religious groups are like that of the 2 x 2 group.
That is simply not true. Most people are not deviants and most churches are not scandalous. Both sexual predators and bad church groups are the exception, rather than the norm. What is experienced in the 2 x 2 group regarding sexual abuse is not the norm!
First of all, it is not cool to gaslight my words, but hey, go ahead and be not cool.
Secondly, the best you can say about your newfound awesome church is this: “my new cult is not as bad as my last cult”.
Mark S, AGREED, Awareness Training is simply a starting point. Clearly, a one hour course won’t, by itself, adequately address child sexual abuse risk OR response.
Watchman: Right-on! The word is “they appear”! ”This applies to them all!”
How very scary to think we were “Spiritual Abused by the ‘2×2’s’ and now we are free from their ‘unscriptual doctrine’ ONLY to be “sold another ‘unscriptual doctrine’! To each and every soul that is earnestly searching: LEARN God’s Word! Learn God’s Plan! Learn the record of God’s(tri-une God) effort to bring “man made in God’s image” to himself! Learn what God did when man refused their God in Heaven: each time God reacted differently — Learn how and why! Learn what God left on record for our Learning = Romans 15:4!
Romans 15:8 – :12 explains what Jesus Christ’s message and ministry WAS! AND to whom! That engulfs Genesis 12 – thro Acts 12. with Hebrews thro Revelation for that promised, covenanted Kingdom of Heaven on Earth: were written for our “learning”!
Romans 15:15 – :17 explains what is for our obedience! YES, THIS you MUST KNOW and understand or ELSE you will be taken-in by a feel-good another religion!
Watchman warns one-and-all. IT IS VERY serious! DO NOT let yourself be taken-in by something else AS once you understand you have been bamboozled ; WHY ‘o’ WHY??? would you “unintuitively allow it to happen AGAIN. YES, there are many bells and whistles, that have nothing to do with Jesus or even God, himself. Ephesians 6:11 – :17 is your armour against the very ‘wiles’ of the “devil”, himself. His workmen are described in 2 Corinthians 1:12 – :15.
Every ‘Christian Church’ no matter what denomination or name they go by, has issues with Child Sexual abuse…and some appear to not be as bad as others, because they do not keep track of their churches on a national level. Each Church is to “deal with it” however the Preacher/Minister/Rabbi/? decides…with the best interest in the church (organization) in mind (think $$$$). So, perhaps at your new location there’s “only been one” (which I would highly doubt)…the one across town has had dozens, because $$$$ is the bottom line. As soon as a new preacher shows up to your church, the rules can change. Some do keep track, and have a hard and fast rule against allow predators to attend, but then if their buddy happens to be the preacher…well, they don’t want anyone knowing that about their friend…so, quick! Get the broom! Our’s only seems more outrageous, because the victims have all been freed to report, and the numbers are unreal to those of us who wouldn’t THINK of doing anything like that. But, the best part of it is…the ENABLERS have been outed, and there’s scripture about that type of behavior and where those people are headed (because that sin/crime is now on their heads), if they aren’t encouraging the predator to turn themselves in to law-enforcement. There’s consequences to every choice we make…if you don’t like the consequences of bad choices, then choose better!
Please reach out to me directly to fact check your information; this article contains non-factual material, previously addressed with both the NY Times and CT.
You may reach me here:
Kimberlee Norris- MinistrySafe Founder
kdnorris@lovenorris.com
Look people. If you have ears to hear, and eyes to see. This squabbling in this earthly organization has gone on too long in my estimation. I think it is time. Time for everyone to make a decision. Let’s all poop and/or get off the pot. If a portion of the people have not come to the conclusion in the last 14 months that this is an earthly organization, and instead think and believe and feel and surmise and postulate the management of it is working and operating in the heavenly realm, then the others will have to leave it at that. There is not much the other portion of the people will really be able to do about it.
And the debate about the Ministry Safe course will go on, and on, and on, ad nauseum. Know why I think that way with the current perspective in the church? Because Ministry Safe is a business on earth, with a business model to help earthly organizations understand the risks they face with bad actors. Their business model is also to go to bat for, and be an advocate for, those abused by bad actors and their accomplices.
Part of the issue possibly in people’s minds is their company’s business name. There is a nuance there that people might interpret one way or the other as they open their store front. From what I understand from their mission statement, this is not a legal counsel attempting to keep a ministry safe. As I understand it, it works with organizations to keep children safe from possible predation of the ministry. The company then works with a team of ballsy men and women in the church organization to manage the risks. Risk assessments are live documents. In other words, they do not get put in a drawer somewhere out of sight until kingdom come. So this means, the ministry will have to be vetted by this team on a regular basis, with constant updating of safe guards and exercising due diligence. Sorry people to pop so many cones of silence. A cone of silence is like a bubble. The main difference is what is inside of it.
To further clarify my point of view, taking some sentences from MinistrySafe website, that helps me understand what their business is about, and the business and legal advice they are providing their clients. One sentence is about the one partner Dr. Gregory Love. It is written, “Love provides instruction and continuing education to risk management professionals, and performs internal evaluation of standard of care issues related to child sexual abuse”
‘Instruction and continuing education to risk management professionals’? People! We are paying money for legal advice to the wrong group of people within the church. See it or not.
And as a side anecdote, I have toured the Texas Tech campus where Dr. Love is part of the alumni…for a very good reason. I will leave it at that.
And with respect to Kimberlee Norris, the other partner in the law firm, I will quote these words from their website: ‘Kimberlee D. Norris is a sexual abuse trial attorney: representing victims of abuse, serving as a consulting expert in abuse cases, and providing crisis management and allegation response counsel to ministries of all sizes. An acknowledged authority in legal standards of care….’
Ya people, see it or not, we have spent our money on the wrong group of people sitting at the table soaking up the professional legal advice. We know from their words over the years what is in the back of their mind when they think of legal advice.
And no, I have not talked to Ministry Safe, but I have a sense that they know their business. I am confident they are very attuned to what religious organizations are up against; the religious organizations with enterprising power brokers in the wheelhouse. And further, if they were in cahoots with the enterprise of religious authority, their business would have quickly gone belly up. They would constantly be in conflict of interest, one partner against the other. Pretty soon the world, and the courts, would have seen them as frauds.
And may I take the liberty to mention something else that may elude some people’s thinking. Earthly businesses must make money and turn a profit or they don’t survive. I am confident Dr. Love and Ms. Norris know a lot of things, but one thing they are likely scratching their head about right now is how they are going to get paid. Many of you likely get my drift. Business organizations just can’t survive on spiritual mayonnaise. Despite what we read in the bible.