March 15, 2024
To Our Dear Friends,
Many prayers, tears, and copious consideration have gone into our decision not to have convention at Bonners Ferry, Idaho, this year. We have been made aware of the depth of our crisis as many criminal acts (especially in relation to child sexual abuse and sexual abuse) have been committed and we feel that one criminal act is too many.
We now understand that allowing access to our personal property could provide unfettered access for abuses to occur. We simply cannot stand by and ignore the pain or contribute to the pain of any victim of abuse. If we are to move forward and have convention in the future, we must prioritize working together toward a safe path of transparency. We feel that there is currently discord on how and where information is provided regarding convicted perpetrators and those with allegations. In some cases, there is a refusal to acknowledge or accept responsibility for these actions that protect perpetrators rather than the victims.
Due to our geographic location, we have a somewhat unique situation where we have many international attendees. With the current lack of communication between the countries and states, there are too many possibilities for perpetrators to come onto our property and we cannot move forward blindly. We will need to have transparent communication internationally to feel that all attendees would remain safe.
Transparency is the path forward.
Eric and Eileen Madson
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Thank you for sharing this! I know this has to have been a hard decision for you, but it is necessary for you to do what is best and right for all! Prayers for you and yours in these days of heartache because of the horrible things that are happening these days. Stand strong in your decision and put your trust in our God and let Him deal with anyone who may try to come against you. I believe that God will work through the FBI and other agencies to bring justice for all. Thanks again for sharing this, and good days to you and yours.
I don’t know you people but we live in Nova Scotia and the same things going on there are also happening here. We think you made a very wise choice, and perhaps this will give others the courage to make similar choices. With love and sincerity, Bonnie and Peter Cameron
Eric & Eileen, we appreciate you for taking this stand. The safety of our members is important and necessary.
Conventions hold very precious memories for many of us, but were places of hell for others. So, if the overseers refuse to help in keeping a safe space on YOUR property, then we understand the reason this step is necessary. It’s really time for all convention owners to say “No more”. Until we have a firm policy of ZERO TOLERANCE from now until eternity. No predator needs to be around their target audience! If they were truly sorry, they would choose to never attend. Because of the arrogance of their demands to be back…that’s telling us all, “I gotta get back to meetings so I can find my next victim “. Thank you, for not giving them that opportunity.
Thank you for taking this stand. I well understand that it was NOT easy. But it was necessary.
Thank you again.
Marg Meyer/Magowan
You’ve acted with incredible wisdom & concern! Thank you from the depth of our heart.
Eric and Eileen noted, “We now understand that allowing access to our personal property could provide unfettered access for abuses to occur. We simply cannot stand by and ignore the pain or contribute to the pain of any victim of abuse. If we are to move forward and have convention in the future, we must prioritize working together toward a safe path of transparency”.
Order and transparency is vital. With that there is still plenty of room for misdeeds to occur. If these “misdeeds “ take place on your PRIVATE property, remember it is YOUR property! That means you not only own the property, you own the lawsuit against the property when a sexual assault occurs. The property would be subject to a lien for damages when any insurance is capped out.
Your property is subject to the rules of other people (workers) who allow what happens on your property. You, however, are the person responsible when something happens on your property. Not the workers. That is a scary and not an ideal scenario. And it is just a matter of time before something like this happens. For any convention owner, your odds are not good.
Eric and Eileen are very thoughtful and deliberate and decisive. If everyone was like them there wouldn’t be the continuing problems of sexual abuse, worker overreach of allowing predators to mingle freely despite the outcry and discourse everywhere.
This brave couple is not swayed by a title, “worker”, but thinks for themselves. They draw a line in the sand and then stick to it. They are principled and that is to be admired, especially in this world today. They are not swayed by tradition, group think or pressure.
Eric and Eileen said, “Many prayers, tears, and copious consideration have gone into our decision not to have convention at Bonners Ferry, Idaho, this year. We have been made aware of the depth of our crisis as many criminal acts…”
The vast majority of people are just followers. Not Eric and Eileen.
@Great People – It’s nice to see, isn’t it. I am thankful for all the convention owners who have also had this wisdom in the past year, and closed their homes and land to keep opportunity for harm from coming to another soul.
Henoffour, you say, “I am thankful for all the convention owners who have also had this wisdom in the past year, and closed their homes and land to keep opportunity for harm from coming to another soul”.
It’s unfortunate more do not have this wisdom, especially when conventions are not even Biblical. This actually might be part of the problem, trying to bring large groups of people together, which includes those who are prey on others. With the large groups also comes unanimity within groups where predators can hide. This could be why conventions were never Biblical.
The lack of wisdom that convention owners have, and not following Biblical teachings, will have repercussions. There will be more sexual abuse at conventions. In the reality we now live in, however, these abuses will not all be tolerated and swept under the rug like they were in the past.
People who are abused will be coming forward and they will be heard. These people will also be seeking justice. Lawsuits will be brought against the perpetrators and convention property owners. Sometimes “wisdom” is not a natural quality and has to be learned. Learning sometimes comes with pain, especially when things are done that are not Biblical.
@Wisdom – My stand is, that right now, there shouldn’t be ANY conventions, Special Meetings, Gospel Meetings, nor any Bible Meetings or Worship meetings if the overseers are too ignorant (because what they are doing is NOT scriptural or in the name of forgiveness) to keep the predators out.
God instituted large gatherings with various events in the old Testament. Jesus attended some of those gatherings. So, to say, “convention isn’t scriptural” is only true on the level that Jesus didn’t instruct His people to create this type of event. But, the gathering of ourselves together is not going to send anyone to hell either. We must focus right now on safety, and right now, we know 100% that conventions are not safe for children or adults!
One worker in North Carolina told me she “hated going to conventions because they were just one big sausage fest”. I was sure she had lost her mind – that was almost 25 years ago.
Another told me a worker in their state ran around with a flashlight as soon as it got dark to break up all the sexual misconduct of the workers so that “the people wouldn’t find out”.
Today, I have no doubt it’s the same everywhere. So, we may never come to the place that we can have conventions again, but we might. I have faith to believe that there are still people on this planet that truly want to serve God, and not disappoint him, with deviant behavior. So, I also think our ministry should allow marriage for any who are wanting to stay within the boundaries, and not willfully sinning. True, they may not be as useful (if children come along, they will be busy with parenting duties), but that’s better than what we currently have now.
Anyways, much of what we do or even think, hasn’t been backed by scripture for decades. Time to get back to the ROCK – Jesus!!
@henoffour
I am so thankful to be at my little Sunday morning mtg today. I have been fed and encouraged by it and strengthened for the road ahead. Understandably changes need to be made especially regarding who should and shouldn’t be attending. The road ahead will be rocky and require vigilance instead of complacency. Our little gathering understands that and there is agreement that victims of csa/sa need to be heard and supported and perpetrators punished. I know we are not the exception, as I have talked to many across this country, all who are in agreement and yet are thankful for their fellowship mtgs during this time and the help that is there as we navigate the future. They actually have become sweeter and more precious. When I hear some elders refusing to have meetings anymore my heart breaks for the little flock that met there. Now is when they need them the most. The same could be said for gospel meetings. Jesus sent his apostles out to preach his word and it is very dangerous to suggest differently. There are many who have received the call of God to the ministry and are true to it. Jesus would never leave the sheep to wander alone but requires them to “feed his lambs and feed his sheep” Thankfully!
@Keepright – I agree, but the current ones in the ministry need to all take a break. The congregation will not die without it, for a time. There were 400 years between Malaki and Matthew where there were no prophets, and God still worked in the hearts of people – clearly Joseph and Mary were two of them – because God trusted them with His Precious Son. When the FBI is finished we want to be ready with a net to catch everyone that’s reeling, and let them know, it’s going to be okay. God is angry with this ministry, and for good reason. He’s turning everything upside down (that man created), and since He hasn’t been able to work within these humans, He will start afresh. We need our ministry to look like what we read of in the scripture. We believe that in so doing, it will help to keep wolves out or if they do get in, we will more quickly see who they are. Because, this whole Child sexual assault and sexual assault of adults business will become more personal to all of them…if it’s their children or grand children! They have forgotten that our families were supposed to be like their family…and instead, used our families as a torture fest, when we have supported them, fed them, provided shelter for them. Now I find out, that for years workers have been going around to some of the elderly asking for their assets, with words like “You do want to leave your assests to the ministry/kingdom, right?” Plus, much more. So, they need a time out to learn what’s acceptable and what’s not. They need to be thankful they aren’t walking everywhere they go, and wondering how they will get their next meal, or what bush they are going to throw their very worn sleeping bag under tonight. There’s a man who had a mercedes dealership and he provided all the field cars in his province…one who has since left the work was telling us about how the prep crew would all race through clean up on Sunday night, so they could beat the others to the dealership to make sure they got the “best” car…what? What’s really important here??
Keepright; So much is unloaded at this time; because of ignoring for a century exactly what Jesus Himself lived in His flesh on this earth AND what Jesus taught. Like: What is the Gospel(Good News) Jesus “taught”. Immediate! After he was tempted of the “devil”? John 4:17, and :23. Until each one who “thinks” they are called of God to the ministry as the apostles were; learn exactly what Jesus taught: this cancer will continue as it has “unheeded” for more than a century. When someone who does NOT Know; trains someone who thinks they are called; is unable to recognize deceit and criminal sexual abuse as horrid criminal destruction::: how are they going to be able to actually read and understand God’s record left either for our understanding only AND then WHAT is actually for our “obedience”???? Then how do you expect the “hopefully secrete CSA/SA; and resulting cover-up secretes to NOT continue?
Evidence proves they cannot do either: what Gospel Jesus taught! to who!; OR What! — is for our learning compared to what is for our “obedience”. We just visited with someone who talked for 3 hours – Non-stop with the overwhelming evidence of deep “abuse” in a short time - in a small area. They were just overwhelmed with the “Knowledge” that it WILL NOT Change. AND people who can demand change: ‘refuse’!: and act like god’s: continue with the status quo, while condemning the “Victims and their Families”!
While they refuse to recognize the deep need of ALL victims!
henoffour, your aspirations and hopes are good but unlikely to occur.
There are two pathways ahead.
The most likely is this: many more Friends leave as well as a significant number of workers. That leaves a rump of true hardline 2×2 believers who will carry on with the worker/friend symbiotic relationship, generally believing they are being persecuted and the “falling away” is a sign of the coming of Christ so they celebrate that.
The other possibility is for something similar to above, but also the many leaving including workers reconstitute into a better managed, safer and higher integrity church fellowship. I have yet to see any significant expression of desire for a new fellowship, but it is possible.
henoffour: This must be one of your better days, you still have hope THAT the ministry will be able to actually read Jesus earthly ministry as is written and was only for the Chosen Nation of Israel: to bring that Nation back to God. NO Gentiles were included. Ephesians 2:11 – :12 Verse :13 explains “”But Now””: is after God through HIS Son who was at God’s Right Hand in Heaven ((in ‘times past’ :11; :12)) Ye Gentiles were without Christ — being “aliens”, having no hope, - without God in the world! ))
WHAT is: “in times past”??? WHAT is: “at that time”??? What is: ”But Now”??? Remember Christ in His resurrected Body sitting at the right Hand of God — reached out to Saul: Acts 9:1 – :3, – :9.
What was Jesus whom Saul recognized as God tell Saul he was to do?-Acts 9:15; Acts 26:12 – :20, :17 the Gentiles to whom I NOW send you. Then Paul in “”Ephesians 3:1 – :9″”explains very simply and completely NOT only to whom he was sent; BUT what “GOSPEL” he was to preach!
Compare this with Jesus’ mission: Matthew 10: 5,:6 and Math. 24.:15; to who and what Gospel were they to to preach? If this ministry cannot understand and follow Jesus’ very words: how can they be of Jesus, or of God.
That answer is heart ‘wrenching’ and ‘life changing’!
BUT gives the very answer WE NEED – each as individuals – to guide our future choices with knowledge and understanding. This answer will demand honesty and the demand to “owning-up to guilt of hidden hideous secrets of demented men and their twisted crimes in the very name of God, our savior, and our Christ”. The ‘ONLY” way forward has been forced by this so-called-ministry and their refusal to actually read God’s Word as written. AND NOW refuse to “own-up to 100 years + of inhuman criminal abuse and the complete destruction of hundreds of thousands of God’s Children. How long before justice and then the healing of our destroyed and render helpless; can begin?
@Watchman – You’re right, there’s probably not going to be many of us, and we probably won’t even be called 2×2’s any more, because it is our hope that we will actually be starting over, with a true footing on Christ, our foundation and savior. Minus a ministry – at least for a while. Like MLK said, “I have a dream!”, but this time it’s “We have a dream!”. There are people out there waiting for things to change, and people to do the right thing. But, it’s a good thing that convention grounds are being shut down (no opportunity there to assault anyone) and those who haven’t shut down already definitely will when the civil law-suits hit them hard. Good old George Walker named us Christian Conventions, so since that’s the business name, those grounds are fair game for the victims to get help with their needed therapies and medications and whatever else. IF there’s ever to be another convention anywhere, God will make that clear and make a plan for one. Right now, we want safety and the victims to be taken care of.
@Astounded – Maybe you aren’t actually reading my posts? We feel very strongly that the ministry needs to be dismantled. I also would appreciate your not preaching at me. I do actually read my Bible. Thank you.
Henoffour, you are right stating: “much of what we do or even think, hasn’t been backed by scripture for decades”. Shouldn’t what we think be backed by scripture, or the Word of God? What we think is eventually going to be what we do. Why are so many things that are significant to us, that are actually treated as from the Word of God, when it is anything but from God? And, if it is not from God, where is it from?
@Not of God – It’s because of men and women who decided they knew better than God, made a mess. Which will always happen, when people choose to take their own way instead of just simply following the words of Jesus, and the example He left. I don’t know if they chose those things because they thought it would appeal more easily to new recruits, or if they knew we were lazy in our service and wouldn’t notice. I don’t know. I have been blown away by some of the things I see posted on all the different sites where people are talking about what’s going on in their states or provinces…all for this very reason: they allowed opinions to overrule what Jesus said and did. Which is why all this abuse has been allowed for over half a century! I want better. We can do better. I want to bring Joy to the heart of my Father in Heaven, and become more like His Son. Jesus forgave both the thugs on the cross along with everyone else that was railing on him – they had no idea what they were actually doing. But, he never forgave their crimes or what they had done elsewise in their lives. He never told the thug that he was going to Heaven with Him, Jesus said, Paradise, which is a place of rest (where everyone that’s passed on before us is taking a dirt nap, waiting for the trumpet sound to raise them from their graves). Will the thug make it into Heaven, I haven’t a clue – that’s God’s decision. Dig deep!
Henoffer – “better” will never happen in the cult. You may want to consider reading the well documented book, “Preserving the Truth” by Cherie Kropp-Ehrig. CSA/SA has been going on since the day William Irving stated this mess, and maybe before that, given William’s dishonesty. With unmarried workers lounging about in other peoples homes, what else would one expect? Monkey business is what you get.
@Bucky – Thank you. I know it seems unlikely or even mostly impossible. But, I see an even bigger opportunity, which is when all (or at least most of them) overseers are arrested, and you’re right, we may be a very small band of people who still enjoy meeting together for worship…but, all it takes is ONE who believes, and I don’t care about Irvine or George whatever his name was or Price, or any of those men who were thought to be great, but made choices to destroy a child’s life. We can still come together and follow the scripture. There were no prophets for about 400 years between Malaki and Matthew, but God still worked in people, because after all those years…He was able to entrust His Son to Mary, and Joseph. Have faith, and you will see miracles.
please read Cherie’s book – you are starting to sound very ignorant and ignorance is a large reason why CSA/SA is able to flourish within the cult
if the people are serious about this mess and want to clean up all what’s going on with CSA/SA and other kinds of abuse people need to close down a lot more conventions and to stop supporting the workers tell they get a handle on this mess and clean this mess up…
@Bucky – I have read some of Cheri’s book. I plan to read no further. Not because I am a 2×2, but because my Bible has far more accurate information than she does. Sure, some of what she has written is true, like the part of the men coming to this country (I’ll add – with a message that God gave them). I don’t care who they were, nor what they did. I care what WE choose to do to change things to make them right, after those men allowed things to go to their heads and started choosing their own way instead of the written word. Unlike many, I do not worship the workers, I worship a risen Christ. It’s very clear that the ministry needs to end, at least THIS ministry needs to end. Maybe some day down the road with help and suggestions from outside groups and even those within our group that have training in how to spot a predator, and those who work with victims. We all can come up with a safe plan for a future ministry. But, for now, our focus must be on those who were harmed, and keep the predators from being treated as though they did nothing of significance (big pompous funerals, having their own meetings – which won’t likely last but a few weeks at best, because there’s no children or women in attendance)…oh never mind…we got both shut down. The ONLY action the predators need to see is law-enforcement coming with their handcuffs! Since they didn’t willingly turn themselves in, we know they are not sorry for what they did…I don’t care if they are claiming “it was 40 years ago!” We know better. Maybe your FIRST victim who’s now deceased (because they committed suicide over what YOU did to them), but that one 40 years ago was not your ONLY victim.
I have faith that the rest of what needs to happen will. God has had His hand in all of this, and He is NOT happy, and those in authority keep doing stupid things and making stupid decisions that are furthering His wrath…
@9882kb – I agree 100%
henoffour: Sorry: henoffour, It is not with any “ill will” that I reach-out to you.
It is only “Let’s come and reason, together”. With your uncanny ability to spend so much effort and time in the very trenches with the very cast-off and destroyed; we know you will be flooded and overwhelm with the DEEP NEEDS of each as you seek to give them a voice while you guide them to those who can and will help them. Not everyone is able to withstand that constant demand you state that you are unable to keep-up with; but are determined to help each person with their needs.
This great NEED has been created because those who did NOT and were Not interested in God’s WORD; as written! or God’s will as Jesus the very God, the Son; “in His human flesh” reached out to God’s Chosen Nation – ONLY -! Matthew 10:5, 6 and Math. 15:24: YES, in Jesus’ very own words.
There is a very BIG difference between preaching and seeking to teach. We feel you are a very reasonable person, therefore, we felt it was a teachable moment. We have been where you are. We have a very different journey than you are traveling right now: but we are grateful for those who so very gently and kindly “With the very WORD of God(we thought we KNEW) stood by and encouraged us as we were driven to read and studied – word by word WHAT WE THOUGHT WE KNEW!
That was a brutal time as we were NOT prepared to let-go of ALL we had or ever known. WE ARE STILL “learning”( but it is with Deep Joy) as we see more of God’s heart, mind and will. We are grateful, as God had Noah build the “ArK” THAT those 8 souls DID NOT say: we like this life God showed us AND we built with our very own hands: therefor we will NOT LEAVE THIS ARK! THIS is the very “blue print” God, himself gave to us = Noah and his family. AND IT WAS for such a time AS THIS.
This is a time for “Let us come and reason together”. There was and is sooo much of God’s plan and purpose BEYOND Noah’s Ark; just as God raised up Abram, then: God, has raised-up Saul, whom God “named” Paul.
JUST as God had a great purpose for Abram:= a chosen Nation; to bring all Nations to himself -Exodus 19:5, :6; “God” has now set-aside Israel and God’s plan for all the world for a season “UNTIL”….Romans 11:25. THEN Romans 11:25 explains THE Fulness of the ‘Gentiles be ‘come-in’.
Paul explains the “”ministry”” given to him by God in Ephesians 3:1-:9. THAT is the fulness God gave to Paul to minister. NOW! And NOW, that we understand in a small measure what was given to Paul for “all the world”; God has blessed us with Joy! It is much different than happiness.
Then – in the future, YET, Romans 11:26 God will return “again” to his Earthly Kingdom of Heaven on Earth for His Nation of Israel —promised by the “tri-une God” for all eternity. :27 For this is MY Covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins((example-Acts 3:12 – :26 ””:19″” The 12 apostles continued to try to bring :12-Israel back to God)). Israel would NOT! God set them aside. #1.Acts 13:46; #2. 18:6 and #3. 28:26-:28. = Romans 11:7 – :15
We too are encouraged with the News Bonner’s Ferry Convention will be closed. There is every reason justified for this “decision of Action” as they try to protect the vulnerable and innocent FROM the Beast of Prey!
Henoffour, you are obviously very connected and have expressed many excellent thoughts. When you say, “Sure, some of what (Cherie Kropp – Ehrig) has written is true, like the part of the men coming to this country (I’ll add – with a message that God gave them). I don’t care who they were, nor what they did. I care what WE choose to do to change things to make them right, after those men allowed things to go to their heads and started choosing their own way instead of the written word”.
George Walker was right there with William Irvine and Edward Mooney. George was the primary pioneer of the religion in America. From the beginning George forged the hierarchy we see today with overseers leading specific territories. The overseers issue is something that you have voiced your displeasure about, yet you say, “(George came) with a message that God gave them “
I agree with you that these people choose their own way instead of the written word, or better, the Word of God. George Walker did this from the get go. George, William and Edward faulted from the start. There was no perfect beginning. These guys started up their own way and that “way “ still continues to today, even though it is now crumbling with the reality of what is a man made system.
Henoffour what you are advocating for is a completely different religion than the 2 x 2 system that you belong. You’re trying to make an apple an orange. You can try to make it happen, but it won’t. It’s recommended that you save yourself a lot of trouble, frustration and time and start up your own group. The 2 x 2 group is on the way out, down the tubes, over. Your group could be a start for something else that is good.
@It’ – I’m sorry you don’t have the faith to believe that God can. He can work in anyone that has an honest heart. I know the history of the 2&2, even that the correct name, at least the one our Government has us registered as is: Christian Conventions – thank you, George Walker. Who made him King to make these decisions?
What I’m getting at is, there are still many of us who enjoy being met together. We don’t need a ministry to worship or study the Bible together. But, we do want to build in such a way that God’s Son would feel welcome there. I have faith to believe that God will keep us, and that we can continue to learn together. Maybe some day the ministry can be brought back, but it needs to be shut down and there be some way to have a safe and honest ministry first. Plus, those in place who can remove them, if they aren’t keeping true to Jesus words or are usurping their authority in dangerous ways. Some wonder why I even want to try to scrape together what will certainly be he remnants of what we once knew, but I have so many beautiful friends that I have known most of my life, and some I have met at every location my husband’s job has taken us to, and some I have recently made that have touched my heart in a way that I am forever grateful, even though we have never met in person. These are the people I want to have fellowship with, and anyone else that would like to join us is welcome too! We just can’t have the type of leadership that won’t heed scripture (by putting the predators out – permanently, or being abusive in any way). Jesus told his disciples that the love they showed (not in a sexual way, but rather one of respect) to one another would show the world that they were His! That’s what we are looking for…if there is to ever be another ministry.
There are many who have stepped aside, because they are afraid, some because they don’t like what’s happening now or was happening, or have realized that much of what we do and have heard isn’t true, or feel unheard, or whatever their reasoning is, but they still love the people. We want to hear from them, and we want to know what would give you confidence to feel safe, how we can be as close to the scripture as is earthly possible, how we could go about keeping safer in the future. I like much of what Wings proposed years ago to the overseers.
We may end up a divided group…time will tell. I do not believe in a Triune God. That’s not what the Bible tells us about God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. There is a oneness, but they are no more the same being, than my parents are ME, but I do have similar traits from both. Which is how Jesus could be tempted (his mother’s nature). But Jesus chose his Father’s divine nature to follow, because he desperately wanted to bring glory to his father. At different times in my life I chose to be like one or the other of my parents…now, I choose to be more like my mother than my dad, because she has been faithfully reading, praying, and meditating my entire life, and we have the best Spiritual discussions. Dad made it back after “wandering around in the desert for 44 years” (his words) and had 5 months with us, before he headed back to Mexico to share the Gospel with the friends he’d made there (sweet desire). Sadly, he wasn’t mentally or physically able to sustain a life there, but I couldn’t stop him from going, because his doctor thought he was still competent enough to make his own decisions…which turned out to be his death sentence.
Henoffour noted, “ it’s a good thing that convention grounds are being shut down (no opportunity there to assault anyone) and those who haven’t shut down already definitely will when the civil law-suits hit them hard. Good old George Walker named us Christian Conventions, so since that’s the business name, those grounds are fair game for the victims to get help.”
Right now it’s just the beginning of what’s coming. Convention owners would be wise to see what other owners are doing. There are going to be civil lawsuits against the owners who have remained open.
There are a lot of victims. Those victims and their attorneys will be going after “Christian Conventions”. It will be easy for attorneys to argue for the victims, that as the name implies, the church ownership is held by the convention properties, since that is the most visible assets available.
Henoffour is also mostly right stating, “for years workers have been going around to some of the elderly asking for their assets, with words like “You do want to leave your assests to the ministry/kingdom, right?”. It is usually the widow this is said to.
This is for a couple of reasons. It’s easier to convince one person than two. One person has no one to confer with for reason. And also the widow is usually not the person that worked the job for years that earned the money, so the money is not as personal to the widow.
The large amount of money from the estates is split between the various territories that the overseers handle. This money is not in bank accounts tied to the overseers. The money is held in accounts of friends and held in suitcases stored at friends houses.
It will be interesting to see if the overseers release any of these funds when judgements are made against the convention property owners. People who don’t think “the way”, “the truth”, the 2 x 2 group is an organization, they are mistaken. This group is highly organized and always has been.
I am saddened that so many make the argument that every person who has ever been accused of CSA/SA is obviously guilty of that offense and obviously has many more victims, is totally wicked and thinks nothing except where he /she can get their next victim and if anyone is dumb enough to see nice good behavior from that person they have been deluded, groomed. I hope we don’t all get to the place where every time we meet someone who is nice to us and we enjoy their company we don’t stand back and say — wait this person may really be evil and they are just grooming me. We have heard some even go so far as to say we need to do away with the ministry. Wow! Maybe we should really ask how can we help those in the ministry. Paul said
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ.So if Christ put them into the ministry, who are we to say they no longer should be there? The ministry Jesus lived and taught for 3 1/2 years lived in the homes of disciples. That wasn’t just some man’s idea.
We have also heard our Bible studies aren’t really Bible studies. Really? I always enjoyed studying the Bible for them and enjoyed the bread others gleaned from it.
I have no problem that criminals where ever they are should face prosecution for their crimes, but we all know that the vast majority of CSA/SA crimes will never be prosecuted especially in a timely fashion. Some of us believe that some who have committed these crimes have repented and been forgiven by God just like He forgave us for our crimes.
And there it is right there folks. Amen’s comments indicate exactly why the fellowship is in so much trouble and is not likely to climb out of it.
And Amen is one of the more enlightened ones!
@Watchman – Amen is choosing ignorance. To state that these predators should be “forgiven” and allowed to have access to our precious children and grandchildren again, is complete insanity. Ignoring all statistics and cases of every predator who has “professed” and lied to all in their meetings and fields about how they have “turned the corner” or “I’m over it” or “I didn’t do anything”, etc. Meanwhile, they are back to raping and molesting, and laughing that they have everyone fooled…These are the smartest people on the planet. It doesn’t matter what we “believe”, what matters is statistics, they don’t lie. These people who think these people have repented…just blow my mind, but then I chose to get educated. You don’t get to offer up my grandchildren, Amen!!!
It always looks different when bad ideas are presented in a hypothetical personal example:
Amen’s child: ”daddy, my teacher just did xxxxx to me!”
Amen: “ok, I will report this to the authorities”.
Child: “but do I have to go back to school today?”
Amen: yes of course. Your teacher is innocent until proven guilty and we know not everyone who is accused is actually guilty. Besides, maybe your teacher has repented and is forgiven by God.”
Child: “But daddy, the teacher is going to hurt me again today.”
Amen: “well we will just have to wait for that to happen. We have to protect the reputation of the teacher and all teachers.”
Child: “but daddy, please help me…..”
Amen: “go to school now!”
@watchman coming from you that’s a compliment. Now go back and read what I said instead of what you supposed I said. It’s best not to put your words into my posts. It comes out ridiculous.
@Amen- I don’t see any posts where someone is stating that everyone accused is guilty? Every single complaint is being vetted. But, sexual abuse is NOT something we dance around.
Do you know that there’s a less than 5% chance that any of these claims from adults will be false, and if it’s a child, less than 2%. What do you think someone would have to gain by falsely reporting? They aren’t going on national TV, and there’s no big bucket of money like…Starbucks or WalMart insurance could yield. So, what would do you THINK they are doing?
We have a list of predators that have either pled guilty, or have been convicted at least once but some more than once…for the SAME sexual abuse, that will be available as soon as the flow of incoming victim statements slow down.
@henoffour as we discussed before you are right, statistics don’t lie but statisticians do. Let’s leave it that your experience says there is a predator under every rock, my experience is there are a lot of good people under every rock. You say I am ignorant, I say you are way over reacting to the facts. I understand that we are dealing with a crime that takes 40-50 years before it becomes generally known. A tough experience for us humans to come to grips with, but I am confident that God knows best how to handle it, he has been doing it since time began. I certainly am not saying that when we find out about these crimes that we should not try our best to bring about justice. I am also not denying that there are predators who will continue their evil deeds until their death. The cases of such are quite clear to us all. But I don’t want to forget there are lots of times that God has taken men like David and used them in His Kingdom long after they committed terrible crimes against humanity. Glad He is the Judge.
@Amen – EVERY predator is exactly that. They have pled guilty or have been convicted of sexual assaults. If they haven’t pled guilty or been convicted, or the one accusing recants…they don’t get the “Predator” label from the court!! So, YES, every PREDATOR is exactly as I stated.
Putting your head in the sand, doesn’t make you educated on this subject. I have chosen to educate myself, and I understand exactly what we are up against.
God DOES know best how to handle this, that’s why HE dropped a bomb on this ministry and fellowship – wake up! What this ministry has done, is put every single person who’s ever been associated with this fellowship, liable for what they were doing. Because people DID know about it, and were told to “keep quiet”, and instead of THINKING for themselves, they chose to trust people they shouldn’t have. It’s interesting to me, how much buzz George Walker caused by setting up our fellowship as a business with the Government all those years ago…because God could SEE exactly what these wicked men were doing even then in HIS name (abusing children, young brother workers, sister workers, and women)…and in His mercy He has given almost 100 years of trying to get these evil men & women to stop behaving in this manner…one’s who claim to be “servants of God” yet, putting their mouths, fingers, penis’, and anything else they can think up…into innocent children. I’m over exaggerating? Nope, just stating facts. It really IS as bad as I am making it out to be. Too bad you don’t wake up and pay attention. You don’t get to almost 800 named predators, with thousands of victims, because ONE person decided to make up a whole bunch of lies.
I think your overseer has likely been lying to you about the state of things, and has been trying to keep things “business as usual”…it is not.
For someone to be forgiven for something, they first have to confess to what they did to the proper authority. Have the people you THINK have been “forgiven” gone to law-enforcement and turned themselves in? NO? I thought so. So, that’s step number ONE. There’s six more after that. Plus, if ANYONE is truly “sorry”, they would CHOOSE to never set foot anyplace where children or young men or women are (depending on their fetish), because this is not a disease you EVER get over. Ask Richard Schober who lives in Alaska. He even spent decades in prison (yes, he’s claiming he’s “professing”) and in 1982 when he was convicted, he was the most NOTORIOUS prolific child abuser Washington State had ever come across! He admitted to over 200 children…”but he couldn’t remember” and he was laughing about it…oh, how quickly everyone forgets! He has been working on grooming people in Alaska since he moved up there (no one in Washington wanted him in their meetings when he was released), and there was a huge issue up there in the past couple of years of him trying to get close to the children in their meeting, even though time and time again, he was told “DO NOT”…people with a conscience don’t have the ability to understand that these predators have NO CONSCIENCE. They are the best liars on this planet. So, yes, their “sin” can be forgiven, their behavior will not be forgotten, and forgiving someone does NOT give them a pass to come back in side and rape and pillage the future of God’s Kingdom. That would be stupider than putting a coyote or wolf inside your chickenhouse and expecting them to guard the chickens!
@henoffour you mentioned the buzz George Walker caused by registering the Christian Conventions name. My understanding was he had to do that so that our boys could register as consciensous objectors when drafted for the war? It was never a name for our church among us. Someone, maybe you mentioned people feeling deceived when they found out about the movement around 1900 that sent out so many into the world to preach the gospel. We first heard about this way in 1964: and were immediately told all of those stories of what happened in and around 1900 by the workers we first heard. Nothing was hidden or sugar coated or as some say lied about.
I could state again that no one ,worker or friend has ever asked me to be quiet about an affair. Of course I haven’t seen or ever had any first hand or experience of that. But having said that I know I will again get blasted for being so blind and having my head in the sand. So be it.
@Amen – I mentioned what George did, because when there was talk of us going to war in Vietnam, people were so thankful that we were registered, so their boys didn’t have to fight, when other people’s kids did. But, they didn’t see the bigger picture or what that decision would mean to everyone now:
We are and have always been named. Whether you go around claiming to attend the Christian Conventions fellowship or not, that’s exactly what you are attending. With that registration (we had to be a denominational church with a specific doctrine to get the waiver – Conscientious Objector). So, because he did that – the convention grounds are considered donated assets (we are Christian CONVENTIONS), and even if the church name doesn’t appear on the title, there’s an annual record of every convention having taken place on THOSE grounds, and therefore it is connected with the church of Christan Conventions, the same church that doesn’t care about their ministry abusing children. So, if you live on a convention place, or ever had conventions on your place…they are coming for you, as soon as the federal government is finished with their investigation. Through Civil law-suits, which take much less burden or proof.
Amen: March 26, 4:02am. We feel you are going after ‘henoffour’. Sorry, “when and if you actually ask: ‘how can we help those in the ministry’ AND actually do; – “You will be helping those they have “abused” “! Then and only then WILL you understand your accusation in your first paragraph are very offensive!
Your second paragraph, you move OUT OF THE Kingdom Gospel Jesus preached in his flesh on this earth. Matthew 4:17, :23 etc, etc. When Israel had ‘rejected’ #1.God in the Old Testament, then #2.rejected Jesus, #3. then rejected the very Holy Spirit that was in the 12 and shown in the face of Stephen, Acts 6:15, :55 – :56::: God turned from that Nation; put their Gospel of their Kingdom on “hold” THAT Jesus himself “Taught” and gave to His 12 chosen “apostles” to proclaim.
The ‘reason’ is explained Romans 11:7 – :11
Is that the END of the promised Kingdom of Heaven Earth for God’s Chosen Nation??? NO! Romans 11:26 – :27 explain after the fullness of (Ephesians 3:1-:9) the “Dispensation of the Grace of God” = :25 the fulness of the Gentiles ‘be-come-in’ = the ‘mystery’=’secrete’ of 1 Corinthians 15:51 – :54 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-:18;;;;;
THEN and only then will God turn back to His Chosen Nation of Israel with their “Gospel of their perfect promised Kingdom of Heaven on Earth”. God “WILL fulfill all His promises to Israel” of their ‘Perfect Kingdom for all eternity. AND it will be Revelation 21:2. the holy city, “new Jerusalem” coming down from God out of heaven…. very physical city :11 – :21 AND who are the names in the 12 gates to God’s eternal city on earth? — :12 names of the “12 tribes” of the children of Israel.
AND one more “clue” to whom the 12 apostles preached in Acts 2: thro Acts 12. Revelation 21:10 In that “new Jerusalem” there are 12 “foundations” — in those 12 foundations ARE 12 names written!!! WHAT and WHO are those Names??? :14 in (the 12 foundations) in them the “names” of the “twelve apostles”. Absolutely, God’s promises to that Nation of Israel made by Jesus and His 12 apostles WILL “be fulfilled”. BUT not through or by any thing connected to Paul. You need to know why God gave those “gifts to the members of Paul’s Grace Church in Ephesians. from what you say you do not understand or know.
Only, “after” Ephesians 1:15 – :23 the promise of God thru Paul; concerning what God wrought in Christ :20 in heavenly places; and gave Christ to be :22 head ” of all things to the church, :23 which IS His Body!, the fulness of Christ that filleth all in all. = Philippians 4:20 for our citizenship is in Heaven((Not a New Jerusalem on Earth)). from whence ALSO we look for the “saviour”, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned LIKE unto His “glorious body…..”
Amen, it is impossible to correctly jump from the 12 apostles God sent; to those who claim they follow the 12 apostles; – the “workers” who preach the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth;; what Jesus preached to Israel—then “jump” TO Paul, the “apostle” Jesus sent to the Gentiles with the Dispensation of the Grace of God!!! which was revealed to Paul by the very Grace of God. Ephesians 3:3 – :4 that You(those believing in that church of Paul’s in Ephesus)– THAT You may understand MY- (Paul’s) knowledge in the “”Mystery of Christ))!!!
Amen, please show scripture for your knowledge that the ministry Jesus ”lived” and “taught” for 31/2 years lived in the homes of ‘disciples’. Jesus did NOT. Matthew 4:13, 8:14; John 19:38, :39; 19:27, and John 20:10. And Luke 9:51 When it came to pass, when the time was come that Jesus should be received-up… :58 Jesus said to the man who would follow him: Foxes have holes, birds have nests: but the Son of Man hath NO PLACE of “Safety” to lay his head. Jesus KNEW he was to be crucified and then go to heaven….:51
We are very relieved and happy that you are not able to understand the very evil and destructive results of CSA/SA. Either personal experience or the very knowledge of the effects when working with and for victims is so very gripping THAT one cannot write the words you write IF you UNDERSTOOD.
@asrounded I am surprised that you would make a false statement that Jesus did NOT live in the disciples homes during his ministry. So he was not in Lazarus home, he wasn’t in his disciples homes when he healed so many, he didn’t eat the last supper in another’s home? The verse you are referring to about not having a place to lay his head is referring to the fact he left his own home. When Peter asked him Lord we have left all and followed thee- what about us, his reply was no man who has left his home–etc will have 100 fold.
You seem to believe in 2 different gospels one for the Jews and one for the gentiles. I read about one gospel and their being no difference between the Jew and the gentile.
you say Peter was only to preach to the Jews, I read about Jesus sending Peter to Cornelius and giving him a strong message that he was to include the gentiles- that which I have called clean don’t you call unclean.
I do understand the trauma of the victims and my heart goes out to them, not just those who have been abused in this fellowship but the multitudes that are abused daily throughout the world, especially the 30% who are abused within families.
”Let’s leave it that your experience says there is a predator under every rock, my experience is there are a lot of good people under every rock”. Amen, nobody has said there is a predator. Predator under every rock? Then, there are a lot of good people under every rock?
All the it takes is ONE sexual predator to cause havoc. There doesn’t need to be a predator under every rock. With “a lot good people under every rock “ doesn’t make up for the one creep that is not a “good person “.
Also, what defines a “good person“? Someone that doesn’t have any known bad qualities about them? My mom was a “good professing woman “. Mom supported the workers, even buying an extra long bed for one tall worker (that worker was later jailed for covering up for sexual predators).
Mom did her hair up and wore a dress when “friends” and workers were around. Mom didn’t swear or smoke. Mom did lie, steal, gossip, cheat the government on taxes, drink regularly and also gave me brandy as a child to help me sleep, which later lead to me having a drinking problem. But, mom was a “good person” living under the rock in which she lived. The shadow from that rock hides a lot of evil, not just child sex abuse.
Amen, and all the other cold people like you that see “good “ in everyone, stay under your rock, where the sun doesn’t shine.
@ the rock – thank you! Your mom was not alone. However, she probably knew that there wasn’t any scripture to base “buns” or dresses on. But, we can’t break the law or do the things that Jesus said we shouldn’t. Unfortunately, many amongst us still do, because they aren’t truly allowing God in to their hearts and lives. It’s hard to stop and take time out of our day, when life is SO busy. But, the reward from doing so, is definitely worth it. I’m trying to keep my home a safe place, now for our grandchildren. We’ve had 17 other children/grown “children to someone” come through our home (besides the hundreds that came for a weekend get-together) needing help or a safe place to land while the authorities were looking for their parent that was determined to “kill”. So much ugliness in this world, but with God we can show us good. A few month back a worker said, “this way has prospered over the last 80 years!” I was stunned. Looked him right in the eyes and said, “I disagree, because I’m positive that THIS (CSA/SA) is NOT the “FRUIT” that God is looking for!”
I would be interested in knowing how your worker friend measured “prosperity”. He/she likely either doesn’t know or is using false information.
In terms of numbers when looking at evangelizing success, it has been a disaster over the last 40 years. Most newly professing people come from the children in professing families. Generally, the church has shrunk from hundreds of thousands at its peak to less than 100k today, and shrinking fast over the last year.
The exodus started in the 1980’s when the actual history began to emerge that contradicted the “from the beginning” line that was prevalent for decades. It shocked many people and made them feel lied to. The CSA problem is far worse, and so is the lying that has come from all the cover ups over the decades. Last year has finally uncovered the lies of silence.
A low level of dishonesty is endemic in the ministry group. Not always from flat out lies, but all the deflection and cover up is a function of dishonesty. Who has gotten straight answers from workers on difficult questions over the last 25 years? Almost nobody. I can count on three fingers the number of workers I could rely upon for a straight honest answer to difficult questions over that time period. It’s a culture that needs a huge change and that doesn’t seem to be happening at this stage. When your job is to protect the system at any cost, there is little hope for honesty and transparency.
@Watchman – I appreciate your post more than I can express! We moved back to Washington from North Carolina because we saw the horrible corruption on so many levels when we were there, and didn’t want our children growing up and having to depend on those evil men/women to guide them if they ever had a spiritual question (and we were dead). Unfortnately, as we have lived out here…we are learning that nothing was really done differently anywhere, because all the overseers were just puppets to the top brass…and they were all busy sweeping, or buying plane tickets to send away the rotten apples to unsuspecting distant lands.
What’s interesting, back in 1975 a worker from either Ireland or Scotland came over, and Therold Sylvester allowed him to share the information about how it came to be that William Irvine & Co ended up coming to America. So, I knew that from the time I was in my teens. But, I didn’t care because I understood that Jesus teachings don’t belong to any man or women, and I chose to let that go, knowing that God is able to raise anyone up to bring Jesus to anyone. He had to use someone to bring the word to this new land, since there wasn’t anyone already here he could use, or He would have! The fact that William allowed it to go to his head, and stopped seeking God’s help with things, made him become useless. The same can happen to anyone who stops seeking Him.
It was actually our new to-be-overseer that made that statement…and I couldn’t believe it. Especially since all this had broke already, and clearly showed that we had in fact NOT prospered. The very people who were desperately seeking God were welcomed in and sexually, physically, and mentally abused!! The abusers not the type of “family” that God is looking for!
”You don’t get to almost 800 named predators, with thousands of victims, because ONE person decided to make up a whole bunch of lies.
I think your overseer has likely been lying to you about the state of things, and has been trying to keep things “business as usual”…it is not”. These are true statements.
How do people defend this group? Why would they defend this group? There are almost EIGHT HUNDRED NAMED PREDATORS!!! This means that there are many, many people who have had their lives turned upside down by the actions of a predator, in a group many members call “the way “, as if it was Jesus Way. That is simply blasphemous.
Anything and everything about Jesus is perfect and pure. This religion is not. Often it is said, that the way is perfect, just not the people all the time. The people, workers and “saints “, make up the group. They have devised the rules that govern the group. This has been the case since the beginning of the group when William Irvine was in charge.
William Irvine was simply a flawed human and the religion he put together was no better. The extreme number of sexual predators that have been uncovered is a testament to how flawed the system is. Yet people still defend it, as if it is something directly from Christ Jesus!
Defending Christ, or His followers who are known as Christianity, that makes sense. To defend a group of people, belonging to something a guy with an ego started 120 years ago, does not. Then to say what this guy started 120 years ago dates back to she day of Christ?
No wonder sexual predators can get away with anything with such a group of disillusioned people. One thing William Irvine had in his favor was, bring a very good salesman. And, a lot of people bought his bill of goods hook, line and sinker. And they still do by letting the sexual predators back in the door over and over.
@ predator playground – I hope you don’t think I am defending this way of worship.
What I am struggling with, is there are many sheep who I care about, know, and love…all across the USA, Canada, and even other countries (and even some in the ministry). They, too, do not agree with anything that’s happening or has happened, but they also do not want to lose touch with those they love and care about.
So, do we walk away and leave them to fend for themselves (I know God can keep them without our help), or do we work on dismantling this crooked bunch, and start afresh (it will not resemble what is currently in place) or do we just never have fellowship again? We aren’t interested in joining other churches, not that I don’t care about those people (nor do I think that God doesn’t care about them), I just know that from all my reading in the scriptures, that’s not the answer, at least for me/us.
I have faith to believe, that the same God that is furious with this ministry and people (the ones who don’t even care enough to learn what’s going on), is the same God who can help us serve Him, in the way He asked His Son to teach us (what’s recorded in the Bible).
This is all very overwhelming, and some days, all I can do is cry and beg God for help to even pick up the armor, and then there’s days when I pick up the armor, but know what it means to put it on…and my human nuture tries to make me think “it’s not worth it” and I need God’s help to put it on! Soldiers wear the armor, not those who are scared of the enemy nor those who want to take the easy way out. He is not leading me away. He has shown me in a very clear way, that staying in His hand and keeping my willingness to do what He is asking of me (and my husband) is what He needs. So, until God takes me/us by the hand and walks me/us away – either to my/us death, or some other plan, I/we will keep taking His hand and walking, and facing the enemy (even within this way) knowing HE is on my/our side.
I know that there’s not one single overseer that hasn’t lied to everyone in their state or on their staff. The Overseers of the overseers (Dale Schultz, Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkley)…well, I think they haven’t known what it is to have the Spirit of God working in them for decades — or maybe never have. People have blasted me for that statement before – but, the FRUIT of their decisions are the proof of what’s in their hearts. They are truly NOT servants of the God of Heaven. People blame the overseers of their states, but they are merely puppets of the three at the top! ”DO as we say, or YOU are out!” Look at what just happened in MN. Some decent progress was being made, when Titus Lehman (from the Amish community) was sent to remove their overseer and come in to destroy it all…for EVIL to prevail.
Their are GOOD people in Minnesota, that are not wanting to be a part of what’s going on, but feel like I do. They love their little meeting/s. May there be some who seek God, and have the faith and courage to rise up to stop what’s going on in their state, like should be happening in EVERY state!
@ predators playground – I hope you don’t think I am trying to save this way, or support it, in any way. I DO NOT.
There are family & friends that I love, know, and care about all across the USA, Canada, and many countries, and I want the privilege of having fellowship with them. So, to not lose our connection, do we stay and fight for change? (ie: dismantle the ministry – yes, from the top brass: Dale Shultz, Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkely to the state overseers, to the staff), and start over with people who honestly love God and His Son, and that care about the plan that Jesus left record of? That’s the plan WE want. Those are the people WE want to have fellowship with. Someone asked me the other day, do you feel it would be okay for people from other religions to come to your meetings and take part in the emblems? Or are you feeling like your plan would be exclusive? If other people want to come to any meeting, I hope they would be met with open arms and included in every part. God knows what’s in their hearts, and if they aren’t partaking with an honest willingness to live right, that’s not on us, that’s on them. I would also hope that they would show respect for those they are meeting with, and come with a heart towards God and not with a “lesson” they THINK we need to learn that has become their doctrine of choice. But, that’s why we will have Elders who will be the ones with the authority, and in love and gentleness help others to understand they are free to believe whatever they want to believe, but our time of Worship, isn’t a time for “teaching”. I have sat in way too many meetings where that has happened even within the fellowship. It’s like sitting at the last supper table with Jesus, and kicking him in the shins, because YOU want to ‘school’ everyone. That’s not worship, and because it’s not…it shows that God had nothing to do with what you brought to the meeting that day.
Same with the longwinded…it just shows YOU didn’t spend enough time getting to the crumb of what God was sharing with you. It’s disrespectful to all in the meeting, and makes what God was trying to share with you of no effect, because we stopped listening after the first 2 minutes…and you’re now rounding the 20 minute mark – which has given me time to read several hymns, look up scripture that has come to mind, read the cute verses on all my book marks, and plan out my grocery list and meal planning for the week!! I have no respect for those who disrespect me.
For 13 years we had teen get-togethers at our place. We talked to the kids about just sharing the nugget of what God had shared with them so that we didn’t make it hard on the Elder and others in the meeting, and then when the workers asked if it would be okay to just have Union Meeting at our house, so we could have the kids come on one of the first Sunday’s, we agreed. There were times we had 70-80 people in our Union Meeting, but my husband still tried very hard to keep it to ONE hour – those are the meetings that I have such fond memories of…everyone being respectful, and truly bringing the nuggets of gold!
We can do better, and God will make it so!!
The 2×2 Church Updates Facebook page maintained by Abbi & Mike Prussack has a copy of a letter sent recently by the senior brother workers in the UK, announcing that Staffordshire convention, the first in the usual annual series of conventions in England, will not be held at the usual site this year.
The letter was sent to elders of fellowship meetings, with the request to share the message onward with those who attend meetings.
This is an important milestone because before this letter there has been NO open communication in the UK about anything related to the abuse crisis. The letter doesn’t give a reason for the change, but it does allude to a forthcoming “Safeguarding Statement/Policy.”
Yay, for progress!