WINGS has received copies of communications supporting the FBI call for information, from workers in TX/NM, KS/NE and Ray Hoffmann.
From: TX NM News [email redacted]
Date: Tue, Feb 20, 2024, 7:20 PM*
Subject: FBI Investigation
To:TXNMNews [email redacted]
To our friends in Texas & New Mexico,
We would like to make you all aware that the FBI has opened an investigation concerning Child Sexual Abuse within our fellowship. We are including the link to their Victim Information website.
We strongly encourage any victim survivor. or any person with knowledge of a crime, to participate in the investigation. An excerpt from the FBI webpage states:
if you have information about this ongoing investigation or believe your child or other children may have been victimized by individuals affiliated with 2×2, the FBI requests you complete a short online questionnaire.
We would like to reemphasize our deep sorrow that this tragedy has occurred within our fellowship. To those of you who have bravely come forward to share your story, we thank you for your courage. We purpose to honor your courage by our continual joint commitment to a safe fellowship environment.
Sincerely,
The TXNM Staff
Dear KS/NE friends
Perhaps some of you have already heard, as it has been broadcast on the local news here in Omaha yesterday, that the FBI has opened an investigation concerning Child Sexual Abuse within our fellowship.
Here is a link to the website for reporting victim information.
Here is an excerpt from the FBI webpage.
“If you have information about this ongoing investigation or believe your child or other children may have been victimized by individuals affiliated with 2×2, the FBI requests you complete a short online questionnaire.”
If anyone has been a victim or knows of a victim, we strongly encourage you to participate in this investigation, Just as we have encouraged you in the past emails, to take these crimes, or any crimes, to the Legal Authority. We fully cooperate with all law enforcement and encourage you to do the same. Thank you for those who have had the courage to report. We are very sorry that these tragedies occur in this world and much more heartbroken that they have occurred within our fellowship.
We do value every one of you, especially the vulnerable children and we do want our fellowship to be safe
With sincere Love and Care
the KS NE Staff
Email to staff from Ray Hoffman
Dear Staff,
Just a note, as several of you would have received the notice that the FBI is investigating the fellowship. We are asking you to get that word to the friends in your fields. And we urge that all cooperate with the FBI in their investigations. Barry and I have been doing so, and plan to continue to cooperate with their investigations. Your brother, Ray
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I have not received any email or other notification from the TX/NM staff. As a matter of fact, I’ve only received information via text regarding the listening session at White Rock ,NM last year. I will contact the workers in our area and see if I’m on their list.
Has anyone else had this issue?
I’m in TX/NM and am getting all communication, plus I have the app where everything is posted. Check to make sure they have your email and sign up for the app.
If you are interested in getting the FBI investigation information out to as many people as possible so that people who are long gone from the 2x2s (but might have been a victim) to report to the FBI, I recommend using the local newspapers. Contact the local newspapers for any town that has a 2×2 convention nearby, and show them the FBI and BBC links, the location of the convention in their region, and the names of some 2x2s in the region (convention owners, elders, and ex2x2s). The newspapers want to run a story about a child abusing cult with a local connection.
The title of this posting is correct for the first two notifications for the staffs from the various states. It is not correct for Ray Hoffmann’s email to staff. Read carefully – he isn’t supporting reporting. He urges all to cooperate with the FBI in their investigation. He does not urge or encourage or show any support for actively reporting to them though, only to cooperate if the investigation comes to them. The wording of his email is pretty careful. If he had encouraged staff to actively report anything they knew, it would then imply that crimes were known by staff and not reported previously, and that he potentially had knowledge about them. By saying only to cooperate and not report, he leaves open the avenue to denial and being able to claim “I (we) had no knowledge of (insert crime).” His lawyer or advisor is definitely earning their retainer fee. His email to staff makes it look like he is supporting the effort, but he really is not.
Moderator – I might suggest to take Ray’s email out of this thread and put it in its own. It is quite different from the emails from the state staffs.
Good point.
One can argue over the meaning of the word “cooperate”. It could be interpreted as suggesting people sit back until contacted by the FBI. Another meaning of cooperate is to “work jointly with” which would imply reaching out to the FBI with relevant information. You may be right that the former is what Hoffman is implying but we will keep the letter there nonetheless.
BGM – good point as well.
Advice from lawyers for anyone dealing with an investigation always is to cooperate (if you don’t, you only draw more attention to yourself), but don’t volunteer information. Answer what you are asked truthfully but don’t give anything extra, because you expose yourself to potential admission of guilt or further investigation. Given the history of response to CSA from the leadership of this church, I tend to interpret Ray’s words in this manner. He could have easily typed “Please take this opportunity to contact the FBI and tell them everything you know about every instance of CSA that has happened in your particular jurisdictions so that we can address the crimes and their coverups properly”. He did not, because it would be potential admissions of guilt/complicity for either not reporting previously or actively covering up for criminal activity. I hope that the staffs in different states would actually be the ones reaching out to the FBI, but being jaded, I suspect they will not be.
I’ll be waiting for the notification from the staff in a state saying that they actually proactively contacted the FBI. I rather suspect though that most are praying “Please not have the FBI contact me to talk to me.”
I suspect you are right. Given the insular culture of the meeting system, the default position would be to avoid contact with authorities or media unless required. After all, they are “the world” and assumed to be inherently evil.
News to you Ray – the FBI is not investigating the fellowship, the FBI is investigating the ministry.
There’s actually more than one aspect of this investigation. The ministers and sexual assault cases, their handling of known cases, their knowledge of cases, their reporting of sexual assault cases, their handling of money, their handling of proper IRS filings, their advice to have their staff on Medicaid, the Elders, and their sexual assaults, their handling of known sexual assaults, the Bishops and their cases, knowledge, same with Deacons. They want to know what’s being stored by ministers in people’s homes, if they borrowed your car, use your credit cards, your cellphones, Amazon accounts (or any other accounts). If YOU know of any abuse of any kind, and when you reported it to a worker were you told to keep your mouth shut, are you being forced to meet with Pedophiles or rapists or molesters, ACTUALLY…just tell them EVERYTHING you know. It may seem insignificant to you, but collectively it’s not insignificant. Just report everything and let the FBI sort through all of it. It won’t take them long to connect all the dots! If the workers won’t cough up the money they know is in accounts in other peoples names (to keep it hid) or in off-shore accounts, to help those they or their peers have destroyed the lives of…civil law suits will follow this investigation. This is just a small window of what’s to come, worldwide! Anyone from any country can contact the FBI.
thanks Henoffour – know of some of the Midwest workers on Medicare – will report that to the FBI, in addition to CSA offenders, and trust funds holders – very glad that the FBI is now riding herd
This is for “bucky” you need to do some research. There is nothing illegal about receiving Medicare. You must have contributed so many quarters to SS to be eligible. Every US citizen is eligible. Bringing up all these things is only hindering the justice for the victims.
pj – wanted to correct – young healthy workers in the Midwest are on Medicaid, not Medicare. Medicaid is for the poor, those unable to work. These workers are perfectly able to get a job. They are cheating the Federal and State governments. They could instead use the trust fund money for health care.
BTW – in addition to CSA, the FBI is also looking at the money trail – who knows where that will lead. It may uncover significant funds which CAN be used for the victims.
@PJ – You need to be careful. You don’t know WHY they are asking about them being on MediCaid.
@Bucky – I know you meant MediCaid…simple autocorrect error
@PJ – this “other” information collecting will have NO bearing on the type of attention the victims-survivors get. I didn’t say the FBI was the only government agency involved – they are just the INTAKE port for information. Don’t question what you are seeing about what they want, or cast doubt. EVERYONE is being watched. There’s plenty of people working on this for everyone to get the attention necessary.
Maybe the FBI should also be investigating the purported fraud
committed by those handling the Covid-19 money. It seems odd
to me that they are just letting that pass. And also, many immigrants
who are coming in and receiving tax payers money, some say as much as thousands of dollars a year with no accounting.
Hello henoffour. I was not B & R in the church. I was introduced to gospel meetings approximately 31 years ago. I am very familiar the the term and role of “elder.” But I am not aware of the terms “deacon” or “bishop” being used in this church. Would you please explain how these “roles” are assigned and what the purpose is for them? TIA 😊
@icaregnld – I can not attest to their meanings being used correctly in our fellowship (because the title ‘Elder’ isn’t being used in the correct context that the Bible has in I Timothy 3).
So, this is what I have heard through the years of workers in our home and from the platform in various places.
Elder = One man who has a regular weekly Sunday Morning Meeting whether it’s in his home or someone else’s, and they are responsible for putting the emblems out, and leading the meeting, and taking “issues” to the workers.
Bishops = One man who has a weekly Bible Study in their home, and they are to confer with their ‘Elder’ if issues arise and if the issue is deemed “bad enough” it’s escalated to the workers
Deacons = One man who is a fill-in/helper to either the Elder or the Bishop. So, like if they went on vacation or were sick, then the Deacon would fill in (lead the meeting that’s still at the home of the Elder or Bishop) for them. Plus, they could have a monthly UNION meeting in their home).
When we lived in the south, we did have an Elder on Sunday, but Wednesday night was a free for all… anyone could have a meeting at their house – it was like a Merry-Go-Round or maybe a Scrambler?!!
We always got a charge out of Union Meeting…because, our meeting always sat throughout the whole meeting …and the Emblems were tucked away in a corner, so as not to intimidate anyone. Then, the other meetings would come that ALWAYS stood. So, in our Union Meeting – everyone was ‘making a statement’ by standing or sitting because each thought the other wrong…The Deacon wouldn’t make a decision…so, We started standing sometimes and sitting other times, and completely confused everyone! lol
Hope that helps!
Linda Day — BINGO! “…the FBI is not investigating the fellowship, the FBI is investigating the ministry”.
It has become a full blown investigation. Please read my post above.
They ARE investigating the ministry (which is where they started), but they realized the magnitude of abuse at all levels AND that turned up some points of interest of other things.
So, again, like Ray said, “cooperate” and do so by calling in or getting on the link they posted (Advocates For The Truth has the link posted too). Do not keep back/self filter anything, tell everything you know! The large news media channels have picked this up, and they are aiready watching this investigation mushroom, and are doing interviews for an upcoming broadcast…in other words, the whole world is going to know. So, if your name comes up without you having cooperated, this will not go well for you. They are visiting the congregation members homes and former members.
Absolutely correct henoffour.
Every elder, worker and overseer should contact the FBI and reveal everything they know about not only CSA, but all malfeasance including other forms of abuse and financial crimes. Regular friends will also do a good service to contact them with anything they know.
Even if you are guilty of a crime or conspiracy to a crime, becoming an early witness is by far the best strategy at this point.
This is including EVERY MEMBER, not just Workers, Elders, Bishops, and Deacons. If YOU (= absolutely everyone & anyone, inside or outside this faith) know of ANY abuse (which is not just limited to sexual abuse), speak up!
These agents that are visiting homes, are being very kind and helpful. Right now they definitely need to hear from everyone who has reported anything to your local law enforcement, if you’ve told Cynthia (or Abbi Prussic) or have reported to a worker, or a “safety team” , or anyone who hasn’t yet been able (Cynthia can help get you the support you need to get through all of this). If you were threatened or even told to keep this quiet…TELL! Those who are keeping it a secret, because “we aren’t to tell about our brothers sin, but rather are to forgive “ -that is not true, and you NOT coming forward is allowing your predator to continue abusing new victims. Please, help stop this!
This faith will never be righted. Until all the wrong has been taken care of. God brought us to this point, because he is very unhappy with how the overseers & those who claim to be in the ministry of Christ who have abused in any way, have destroyed the kingdom (flock, way, or whatever people refer to us as). If WE the congregation want to still be a group/fellowship we need to go back to the scriptures and set everything up according to Jesus teachings. Not what has been allowed in these past 100+ years, that we ignorantly accepted. Because, that hierarchy led to this being the perfect breeding and feeding ground for all these hundreds and hundreds of mentally ill abusers!
We must get back to our foundation being on Christ!
@Watchman- Exactly. It doesn’t matter if people are inside or outside this faith…doesn’t matter your “position” go call/get on-line today!
Just an FYI, the FBI has been watching us for a very long time, and it’s in your best interest to be honest with them (it’s a Federal Offense to not be honest to these agents). Thinking it’s okay to be cheeky with them (holding back partial information, being decietful, etc) will be lumped in the “lying” category. One that was interviewed recently commented something to this effect: “it was like we had known each other for 10 years or more, all they knew about me. Everything I had said, everything I had ever done”, etc.
This investigation is also looking for any workers that have been abused too. If your companion ever touched you in a sexual way, slapped you, grabbed your face in anger, punched you, kicked you, was mentally degrading, kept money from you so you couldn’t get necessary items, or tortured you in any way.
If you even THINK your child may have been assaulted, but you aren’t sure…don’t question the child yourself, notify the FBI and let their experts get the information from the child, so that the child isn’t retraumatized. Parents don’t have decades of training to know what is the right/wrong way to draw out information of this kind.
If anyone has questions, contact Advocates for the Truth ( https://www.advocatesforthetruth.com/contact )
Or you can send me an email at: henoffour@gmail.com and I will do my best to answer.
If you are unsure about the information you have (because of the write up the FBI did – before they realized the rest of this mess) – just report it! Don’t self filter anything. They will sort it all out. Also, they have changed their stance on TIME…it doesn’t matter if what you know happened yesterday, 10 years ago, 40 years ago, or in the 1800’s They want to know!
Possibly the distinction between the ministry and the fellowship is purely semantics as the fellowship has been built on the structure of the ministry and this is where it has led.
For those that are staying in, what is the end game?
Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. Since the truth is built on bad theology, how will it produce good fruit?
Will the truth become more obscure and socially atypical/unacceptable with time? — This may be acceptable for those who are older, but what about for those with children? Imagine those children trying to find spouses and bringing them back to this organization?
@Semantics – as one of the “older” folks, I can say that nothing will ever be the same again. Those who are 80+ may be too exhausted and disgusted/triggered to have the energy to change anything, but there are others who are gaining numbers who SEE what changes need to be made (it’s drastic – because scripture IS being used) and are willing to see it through.
We WANT everyone to contact the FBI and cooperate with them. Be honest and tell ALL they that’s known to you. It doesn’t matter what decade it was, or if it has to do with sexual abuse or molestation , or money/fraud, or if you know something about some other subject that ought not to have been named amongst us. Our reputations are on the line. We are to find favor with God and man, as Jesus did. That doesn’t mean we hate anyone, we just want honesty…like we’ve heard preached thousands of times…but, we are sincere.
We have heard people say “They are just trying to tear the truth (Way, Kindom, etc) apart. No, the MINISTRY did that all on it’s own! We are just trying to right what’s wrong!! Because we love and respect every human who loves and wants to serve God!
If you have suggestions or need to be heard – we are listening!
With the upcoming television broadcasts and additional publicity such as a Netflix series, and then when the FBI investigation is concluded with charges filed and workers jailed, there will be significant stigmas for women to continue with the early 1900’s look held over from the William Irvine days. Once women are allowed to change their dress and hair style, the religion is concluded. It’s a works based, show religion and once people are asked by everyone, because of their odd look, if they’re part of the child abuse no name cult, people will lose the look. The “Laura and Mary”, or prairie look may continue at conventions for a few years, because people like to belong to something and fit in with group think, but that will fade as attendance continues to dwindle. Most people will leave and join Christians, however, there will be a small group of hard core members that will be too proud to admit they were duped. They, like the Shaker religion, will eventually disappear. Originally William Irvine wanted just a celibate ministry, so that will be an apt end for his “great experiment”.
@The great experiment – I know what’s coming.
But, I’m wondering if you consider Modesty to be “1900’s look”. However, I do know that things are vastly different from the East Coast to the West Coast, and even from state to state, and from country to country. So, blanket statements are not a very accurate way to throw barbs. In some countries our ladies wear pants with tunic type tops over them, in India an ensemble called a ghagra choli, in China Hanfu style, and Russia women wear dresses or long skirts and blouses and love to flaunt high heels…I could go all around the world…every country prefers “modest” clothing. ”Modesty proves to the world how much you appreciate your worth” – from one of my previous bosses (an atheist) when I worked as a medivac dispatcher. William Irvine didn’t create the standard of modesty. As far as the scripture goes, “modesty” is the minimum standard that was required by God’s chosen people (the Nation of Israel). So, when the Apostles went to the Greek’s, whether Jesus told them (and it wasn’t recorded) or the Apostles thought it a good idea, they wrote about it, but added that “if anyone had a problem with it, we have no such doctrine, neither the churches of God”. So, it’s not a religious standard, but more of a moral one. A true Christian will dress (man or women) in a way that you would not draw attention to yourself, but rather that people would notice the Spirit of God within, but the countenance one would see in your face. It’s not US we want people to pay attention and give glory to, but Christ.
I don’t know what “odd look” you speak of…I’m 60 and never had anyone leer at me for what I was wearing or how I had my hair done. I wear a dress, pants, shorts or a swimsuit when they are appropriate…I can’t imagine waterskiing in a dress with my hair pinned up in a bun!
I have had people ask me, “Why don’t you wear make-up?” to which I respond…I don’t need to hide behind a mask, as I’m not hiding anything. They usually giggle and say, “I’m not hiding anything either” to which I resond, “Then, why are you allowing men to set your standard of beauty?”
Semantics: You recognize the ugly truth of not only the terrible, ugly, criminal abuse of CSA/SA: and the treatment of the victims and their families by those to whom it was reported; BUT the protection and hiding of the abusers, yes, for at least 7 decades.
We are at a loss to know which is WORSE: the inhuman, twisted, criminal victimization OR the “bad theology” that misleads precious souls into believing “if they are ‘good-enough’ they have salvation through the Living Witness Doctrine of only the 2×2 Doctrine.
Oh, we ache for those precious souls as they even face this criminal investigation of the FBI, that reveals the human trafficking, sexual abuse, and money laundering and then also trying to convince themselves that the One Only True Way is still right. We urge each and everyone to actually read God’s Word as written.
Ephesians 6:11-:17 explains THIS is God’s Armour.
Ephesians 6:11-:12. Put on the ‘whole’ armour of God THAT you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. You read :12
Ephesians 6:17 Take the(1) Helmut(your head)of salvation AND the (2)”sword of the “Spirit” (both) which is the “WORD of God.
You are responsible for your own salvation. You cannot blame someone else for misleading you. What a very chilling and goose-bump realization when one realizes what DOCTRINE was the doctrine ALL of those who believed the ministry of the 12 apostles!
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his (Peter) word were baptized: 3000 were added unto them
Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the ‘apostles “doctrine and fellowship……
What was this ‘doctrine”? Acts 2:44 “All that believed Had ALL things common…. :45 sold their possessions AND DID what? – :46 And they “”continuing daily”” with ONE ACCORD in the ‘temple’…… What religion is THAT? Jewish; even to this day: in the Temple or in the Jewish ‘synagogue’. We just had the experience of driving past a Jewish ‘synagogue’ on the “sabbath” and it was being guarded by several police cars on that Saturday.
Yes, can one imagine how very important when purely semantics, carries such frightening results for all eternity. Do you follow the believers of the ministry of the 12 apostles Doctrine whom the ‘workers’ follow?
Yes, this is a great PROBLEM and great distress for the older 2×2’s and for families whose great concern is their children’s future. They are bing mislead by the very scripture they claim for their salvation.
Astounded. It’s not theology as all theology is shaky and doesn’t stand up well to scrutiny. It provides a cloak for hypocrisy and all manner of evil everywhere.
I suggest looking at the social and cultural drivers of 2×2 ethical and moral failings.
@Astounded – I believe what Jesus said, and did. Not what THIS ministry has done with God’s word. I have posted more than once about the changes that need to be made, for us to get to that point, or made comments referring to those changes. I may not agree with YOUR view of all of the scripture either, but I certainly will not defend THIS one.
icaregnld: March 7, 8:27pm
Ditto, on what and who are “deacons” and/or “bishops”? Sounds like the unholy worldly churches, whose ministers are wolves in sheep’s clothing – who are in a building made by hands. I was always curious what kind of building the ‘elders’ lived in.
Shouldn’t there be letters from EVERY overseer telling the masses to tell what they know to the FBI?
@where’s the letters – they don’t want anyone reporting. But, if there’s no wrongdoing, who would worry?
if the workers cared enough for the victims to want this to get around to everyone, because they too want to help, but move this forward quickly…they would be getting every field together and being frank with everyone, including the elderly (their biggest financial supporters), and not worrying about “offending”…Because it’s too late for that. This is coming to every state, to every field. The number of people who ARE already hurt and separated from us by the allowance of criminal behavior, is far higher than the number of remaining attendees.
Greg Harger, the leader of Michigan, Ohio and West Virginia put out a letter saying that the FBI was investigating “the fellowship”. Think he should have said the FBI is investigating him for allowing the likes of Don Reynolds and others like him to hang around. This letter is the first word that Harger has put out and he did not even mention the CSA/SA scandal in the cult.
It’s like the picture of the three little monkeys with one with it’s hands over it’s eyes, the other it’s ears and the third it’s mouth. If you can’t see it, “it” is not real. And, it is not real to the overseers. Not until there are arrests and indictments.
Could you please message me? I have some questions. Riel Boring
@Marie Boring – (Riel Boring) I don’t see who this message asking for contact is for. Since I’m in this thread, I will just post my email address here and if it was me, you can send me an email, if it was for someone else, I hope they have or will make contact 🙂
Henoffour@gmail.com
@Where’s the letters? – Right?!! Hello??? They aren’t listening, because they are too busy trying to squash all this, and beating it into people to keep their mouths shut. Maybe in hopes that the abused kick the bucket before they can testify?
I can just hear them (because I’ve had these things said to me), “Oh, it’s not what people are making it out to be”, “it was just one person, not hundreds”, “it was consensual”, “it’s just people trying to tear the Truth apart”, “these are just ‘offended’ people causing a ruckus”, and so many more! Some are gullible enough to believe these sayings…the Spirit of God will show us that there’s no truth in them – or the ones stating them!
Watchman: Thank you. That is so true. Theology… is to theorize!?? Is that what we want to depend on for all eternity? AND is open to any and all speculation! AND does need a cloak to hide in.
That subject of social and cultural drivers is very very scary. Been their – did that with great ignorance and now often make our face red with embarrassing memories of how blind and gullible we were: and YES, with complete pride and joy. But “ignorance” is not acceptable when God has place many in each home. We just must read God’s Word as it is written and learn God’s message to us THAT is ‘for’ us. Most of scripture is for our learning – Romans 15:4. Whatsoever things written aforetime = all of scripture from Genesis 1 – Acts 12.
Paul explains this: Romans 15:8-12. Purpose of the ministry of Jesus Christ “”to the circumcision”” = Israel = Jews = Matthew 15:24
Verses. Romans 15:13 NOW…. :16 that, I Paul, should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the “Gentiles” = all non-Jewish nations = Ephesians 3:1 – :9; the result of God’s mystery :2-:3, :4, :8 ‘unsearchable’ riches of Christ = :9 make all men see what is the ‘fellowship’ of the “mystery” which from the beginning of the world HATH BEEN HID in God, ……
Our hearts pray for the victims. We pray for their healing the ability to have a happy fulfilling life free of triggers which controls and drags them back into despair. Hopefully the FBI carries enough authority to control the “Overseers ” and cause with demand such solely needed counsel for our hurting and abused souls. And allows healed hearts and minds to experience the joy of knowing Ephesians 2:4-:9:
Ephesians 4:4 BUT God….in his great LOVE for us….even when we were dead in failure, HATH quickened us together with Christ(by Grace are ye saved):
Ephesians 4:6 ‘HATH” raised us up: made us sit together in”heavenly’ in Christ Jesus;
Why? :7. THAT in”ages to come’…. shew “exceeding Riches of his “grace’ in His ‘kindness to us through Christ Jesus.
Because: :8 For by “Grace” are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT of yourselves: IT IS THE Gift of God”! How? Through Faith!
Bucky thanks for your response as a survivor of Don Reynolds I don’t feel he should feel comfortable around children or meetings. He is a dangerous person and I personally have spoke with the FBI and don’t feel they are investigating the fellowship. I feel they are investigating the criminal acts of the management AKA workers and overseers.
@chull1103 – that was true at first they were only investigating the workers/ministry…it’s gone beyond that now. They are interested in ALL information that anyone has (money, fraud, abuse of ANY kind (verbal, physical, sexual) – whether people are IN the ministry or OUT of the ministry or never were part of the ministry). What the new workers did with their money when they “sold all, and gave to the poor” (or was their money taken by the workers in charge), or did family donate trust funds or any type of fund/account to this church/ministry/convention grounds. Don’t self filter, because you think “oh, it’s probably not really relevent”. Maybe it’s not in and of it’self, but collectively…when the whole picture is known…it might be the most important piece of the puzzle of this mess.
They aren’t (at least at this time) investigating us individually, unless we personally have committed a criminal offense. I wouldn’t be surprised that as things unfold, they take a closer look (I say closer, because they’ve been watching for decades) at EVERYONE who’s ever been a part of this faith. We are still at the base of the atomic mushroom… This isn’t going away any time soon!
chull1103 – I was not molested by Don, but another perverted old creepy worker just like him. Guess Harger of ok with Don still attending meetings. Sick men they both are.
Wanted to say Harger is ok with Don and others of his ilk attending meeting. Harger is the most “holier than thou” worker I have ever observed. He wanted to use some sort of dog bark sound in Michigan to determine who were good and bad cult members. Crazy stuff.
@Bucky – Wow! That’s insane. I recently contacted a friend of mine who grew up in Michigan, and their parents moved them out of state because of some extremely sick behavior by workers and Elders. I have asked her to contact the FBI about it. She hasn’t come to meetings for years, because of verbally abusive ministers that were in their new home state, and all the things her sister saw while in the work there. Makes one nauseous!
Bucky, our meeting is the one Don Reynolds would ordinarily attend. At the time Don left the work, the workers told him he couldn’t attend meetings, and as far as we know, they have not changed their position on this. Just wanted to make that clear.
@Tom & Debi Taylor – Don is crossing state lines (Indiana) to attend meetings. Just an FYI.
Any Elder who allows a pedophile is not a man of God!
henoffour, we heard that too, and we agree with your statement. We just wanted to make it clear that, at least as far as we know, his attendance at that meeting was not endorsed by the workers in our state.
Thank you.
I’m curious if the workers in your state ever considered that allowing him to freely roam would cause other children harm? Why hasn’t he been turned in to authorities (my guess: Barry knew what he was up to and chose to look the other way), so now if he turns Don in…Don can claim he KNEW? Just a thought.
Will you or you ask your workers turn him in to the FBI for what you/they know, because you love the victims and any children he might currently have his eye on? I hear he’s showing up at local funerals and Gospel Meetings too.
If Don actually cared about not reoffending…he would CHOOSE to not attend ANY gathering where children might be present. So, because he’s choosing to attend…he’s still seeking victims. – That warning came from the head of our Washington State law enforcement officer.
My hope is, that the workers who choose not to report him (or any offender), will spend time in prison. Maybe then they will understand the pain and agony with which their choices have reigned hell upon victims. Even if they only got 1 year for every victim…that’s a lot of years behind bars.
henoffour- Harger is not going to report Reynolds or anybody else to the FBI. In his letter, he did not even mention CSA or SA or anything else. Harger and probably most all overseers WILL be reported to the FBI in addition to the many so-called “elders”. Hope these “leaders” are smart enough to know that it is not a good idea to lie to the FBI.
Harger’s predecessors, Irving Ross and Jerome Frandle, both let the likes of Leslie White, Reynolds, John Wilbur, Peter M. , Bradley and others run loose. Frandle and Ross both gave Dean Bruer prime speaking slots at convention. Why would Hager be any different than Ross and Frandle? Due to a couple of experiences with Harger – I would not be in the same zip code with him.
This is very confusing. First it’s said, “the workers told (Don Reynolds) he couldn’t attend meetings”. Period. Couldn’t attend meetings. Then henoffour, who is VERY informed and reliable, said, ” Don is crossing state lines (Indiana) to attend meetings. Just an FYI”.
The follow up to that information was, “we heard that too”. Then it is said, “at least as far as we know, (Don Reynolds) attendance at that meeting was not endorsed by the workers in (OUR) state”.
Who cares what worker, in what state, authorized this dangerous person to attend meetings? Is that the sticking point, to argue who allows predators into an environment that is a danger to other people? It is an elder, or a worker, that much can be agreed on. People don’t just show up, and then continue to show up at meetings.
It speaks volumes for the ongoing culture of the group.
To split hairs over who allowed the wolf in the door, not why! And, not to have ZERO tolerance. Hopefully the FBI investigation will sort this misbehavior out. Don Reynolds, Gilbert Smith and many others have crossed the line of sexual misconduct and should not be allowed to have any more chances. In any meeting. But, it wasn’t a worker from our state that authorized it…. C’mon people. What about conventions? Everyone that goes to meetings goes there.
Yes – very confusing. We were told for years by the traveling overseers at convention that the cult was the same the world over. Guess that was just another lie, and Satan is the father of all lies. The FBI will sort this corruption out, but it will take time.
T & D T, ” the workers told him he couldn’t attend meetings, and as far as we know, they have not changed”. Then, “we heard that too… his attendance at that meeting was not endorsed by the workers in our state”. Doesn’t the word ” worker”, mean ALL workers? Guess not!!! The statements made are a contradiction to each other. It’s like the word “truth”, does not actually mean truth. Worker, or truth used in one instance doesn’t always have the same meaning in the next instance. But, words do have meaning. It’s just that people purposely misuse them for their own agenda. To the FBI, though, facts are facts and they also mean things. Like jail time.
@Tom & Debi Taylor – I hope you don’t think I am fussing at you. I have been assured that you would never allow a known predator in to your home (even for a meeting). Thank you, for taking that stand!
It’s just that crossing state lines was a possibility that I raised many months ago when in a meeting with those who could do something about it. Now we know for positive that it’s happening, and he’s likely not the only one doing this. I have also been asking for a list of predators that we could put on a global entry platform where elders could use their smartphone, ipad, or computer to access it when someone calls to ask if there’s room for them at that meeting. You would check their ID at the door, and be sure their name wasn’t listed, or deny entry if it was (to ANY gathering – Special Meeting, Convention, or meetings of any type. I know there are some that want to resist, but once it’s in place people will get used to it, and likely even become thankful for the safety it provides. The predator list will only contain the names of those proven to have a reason to be on the list. Those who only have accusations against them, but the claims haven’t been solidified will not. I know that the list is coming. We are trying to be patient.
Plus, we need more Elders like Tom & Debi who won’t allow entrance to their homes.
We must protect the sheep/lambs. You can not take the wolf nature out of a wolf. You can tame one, but the nature is still within. So, to not tempt them (out of love for their souls), we must keep them out.
One needs to attend a meeting for a least five years to determine if an elder should be “thanked” for “taking a stand”. I have moved around the USA a fair amount and have had a few good elders and many very bad two – faced elders. I am talking about those that use foul language, tax cheats, liars, frauds, bullies, arrogant and self-centered, and one that even told his own kid that she was going to hell because she dropped out the cult. These types of elders then act like an angel when the workers show up for Sunday morning meeting. Since these elders were all appointed by an overseer, one can easily see why CSA/SA is also overlooked by leadership.
@Bucky – They have been well known for far more than 5 years, perhaps not to me, but ones I trust.
A lot of people are well known, such as Bruer, Rauscher, Corfield, Reynolds, Thayer and many others, but as we now know, that does not warrant trust. Regardless, it does not matter what you, me or others think of elders – God will judge each one of us. That being said, I do personally know two esteemed elders that told their daughters that they going to Hell after they dropped out of the cult. God is the only one that will make that decision, not an elder, worker, or anybody else.
Bucky, I have to agree. PEOPLE get way too taken up with titles! Elders, workers, “saints”, … There’s not any that don’t have skeletons in their closet. The elders in question, let them air their dirty laundry and then we’ll see how honorable they look. Pride comes before the fall. People are simply that, people. Nothing more.
@Bucky – I’m frustrated because you are disparaging/saying defamitory things about people that it seems you have absolutely no knowledge of who they even are! These are people that are trying to help the victims!!
Another thing I see you stating frequently is that this is a cult. Our government did an indepth study on this group, so they could quantify “what” we were, because people who don’t understand what a cult is were calling and complaining about “this cult”. They determined that we were in fact, not a cult.
There are MANY terrible Elders. That IS a fact. I wouldn’t trust one until they gave me good reason to do so, like you said, over a span of at a minimum of 5 years, and exactly NEVER if they have ever been in the ministry. That we can agree on. Because a huge number were put out of the work to hide them elsewhere after sexual abuse allegations.
95% of our “leadership”, “overseers”, “head workers” or whatever they are calling themselves, should NOT be in the positions that they are choosing. Jesus was very clear on this when HE was talking to the Apostles who were arguing over who would be the greatest (once Jesus died). So, until they ALL step down, and stop using their human thinking to try to justify their positions, this fellowship will continue it’s downward spiral. God is NOT happy with the horror and mess these past/current (mostly elevated) ministers have made. That doesn’t mean we people can’t regroup and reset things using scripture to rebuild.
henoffour, I agree with most things that you say. This time though, you/ we do not know the extent, or details other people have been involved with what they reference. If someone has been involved in a situation, they may want to express their opinion. That is not for us to judge. The “fellowship “ has always been ripe with that, and usually wrongly. Also, the government doesn’t not have the capacity to make a judgement about what qualifies for a “cult “. Look up the ten qualifiers for a cult. Again, this is a listed example for a cult and it closely mirrors what the 2 x 2 religion is. If you have ever been closely associated with the group, especially since birth and have been for generations, that person is in a much better position to have an opinion on the type of group it is, than a person from the “government “ looking from the outside in. I am also of the opinion that the group is most definitely a cult. I am older than you and was in the group for many decades. Many issues have occurred and affected my life personally and there is no doubt in my mind that the group is a cult. The government will not change that for me.
Please provide the link for the government study on the Cult not being a cult. In the meantime, please google “10 signs of a cult”. Our daughter is now in extensive therapy due to abuses from the Cult, including near CSA from a middle aged worker that was caught in the closet with her when she was five. Both my wife (by a Wednesday night elder) and I (by an esteemed worker) were molested. We probably both should have had the therapy our daughter is now getting.
I find it interesting that you place so much trust in an elder that you admit not even knowing. You previously said that you do not trust any overseers, except for maybe Darryl. These overseers that cannot be trusted then select elders that are yes-men, money-men, back-slappers, or maybe all three. They ARE NOT selected based on 1 Timothy 3. So, you trust an elder that you do not know, that was selected by an overseer that you do not trust.
Because elders are selected by overseers and not the congregation, a power structure has been created that allowed CSA/SA to flourish for over 100 years in the Cult.
FYI: Michigan and Ohio have a very dark history regarding CSA/SA (many workers caught doing CSA/SA with some of them spending time behind bars, including a past Michigan overseer for cover-up).
@people are people. I agree handily with your thoughts. i was surprised about the thoughts on here concerning whether we trust an elder or not. We have had the privilege of traveling around the world and have been in meetings in many countries. I would have to confess it never entered my mind when I went into those homes where the meetings were whether I could trust the elder or not? I was certainly thankful that they opened their home for fellowship that we enjoyed. The more I think on this the sillier it gets that I should even think about the word trust in this situation. I trust the saving power of Jesus. I trust His guidance, his love. I greatly respect those who show by their lives and their obedience that they trust Jesus. But titles and trust are very different things.
@real – I’m not sure what part you are referring to as far as “expressing an opinion”. But, making defamitory statements about someone you don’t even know is not Christlike and can land people in trouble.
It was not a worker that spoke to me about these people, and running them down just because they have a meeting in their home, is like saying “All white people are racist”, or “All black people are racist” or “All chinese people are racist” (or any ethnic group). It’s simply wrong, and until you KNOW otherwise, it’s best not to judge someone. These people are working hard to help the victims, and that’s what we want to see in everyone! Not hiding predators. That’s all I was saying.
We are not a cult. No, I am not brainwashed.
@Bucky – There’s no “link” – sorry. I don’t have access to the letter to post it, or believe me, I would! The two pieces that we are missing:
Cults: are easy to get into, and hard to get out of.
This fellowship: is hard to get into, and easy to get out of. As many changes were necessary to be a part, but…anyone is free to walk away from it at any time.
Yes, there are similarities, but we are not a cult.
I’m very sorry for the abuse that your family has endured, that actually makes me really sad.
Bucky, it is quite obvious to readers that you have co-opted the cult label as weaponisation against the fellowship as no doubt you are aware that the term is, other than in academic circles, used to wound when tossed about indiscriminately.
It is a great way to render your posts meaningless to those you are trying to convince to leave the “cult”.
People see what they feel comfortable with. Belonging to a cult is not their goal. None the less people belong to cults:
It is what it is. You can call a snake a rabbit but it is still a snake.
Bucky, bunny or whomever. You just proved my point. You are using a cult definition to support your sentiment that the fellowship is a snakepit. I get it, you hate the 2×2 system and group and it comes out loud and clear whenever a post weaponizes the word “cult” and uses it multiple times. It speaks more about where you are coming from than what you are talking about.
Here’s the problem. Every workplace, every social group has cult characteristics. Every one of them. Even broader society can fit into the cult definition. If you don’t see it, you aren’t looking.
Have you considered that you are in an anti-2×2 cult? That exists too and you might want to look in a mirror. The anti-2×2 cult is no less pretty.
”Every workplace, every social group has cult characteristics.”
Quite a statement, to say the least! If that is the case for you, I’d suggest a new workplace and social groups. The 2 x 2 cult would be a great place to start.
…”making defamitory statements about someone you don’t even know”… What makes you think that is the case here?
”Have you considered that you are in an anti-2×2 cult?”
That statement is very confusing. Everyone NOT in a cult, is in an anti cult? That statement would mean everyone is in a cult. That would give solace to people who are in the 2 x 2 cult that they shouldn’t fret, because everyone is in a cult!
@The great experiment; …”there will be a small group of hard core members that will be too proud to admit they were duped”.
So right, including some in my and my wife’s families. I am reminded of a quote attributed to Mark Twain: ‘It is far easier to fool someone than to convince someone they’ve been fooled’.
Also from a psychotherapist commenting on the followers of an unnamed former president on how they can possibly perpetuate such obvious lies (paraphrasing): ‘When it’s obvious you’ve been duped, it’s far easier on the psyche to just continue with the lie’.
There will always be those that insist the allegations of CSA and SA against the ‘ministry’ are largely false, and this is the beginning of the biblical ‘falling away’, or whatever else they choose to call it.
IMO, when all is said and done, they will be found on the wrong side of this evil and it’s coverup.
@Stand for the truth (small t) – you are right, some are hanging on, because it’s ripping their hearts out to believe that the one thing they held so dear is being destroyed by those they trusted (the ministry). That is the older folks amongst us that can not even comprehend such grotesque news. It’s gross to us younger ones too…but, we DO believe it’s true. They will eventually have to come to terms with it, or perhaps they will die from a broken heart – another tragedy that the ministry will be repsonsible for.
The rest of us that know Jesus left his pattern/plan so we would know how to follow Him, that’s our focus. Will it look like things did even a year ago…nope. But, right now…our main focus is on helping the victims!
henoffour. Reply to March 1 12:21 We too, are very interested in that Government Study you refer to. Please find the study and their results.
Several counselors and therapist with Masters Degrees label this religious group with the definition of a “cult”. The torment for the victim has same projections. Same Treatment method is also usually helpfull.
Please be careful with your generalizations. We know for a fact: it is NOT hard to get into. It is also of great acclaim to those responsible. It is not easy to exit: and the guilt projected on that person is horrific. As any who have been convinced it is the ONE ONLY TRUE WAY must have a complete change of mind and emotion when cast-out or live in torment ‘until’ return or ”learn WHAT God has actually recorded in His Word for our learning”.
Jesus very OWN WORDS recorded in the 4 gospels: God’s purpose!
Matthew 10:5, :6, :7. Go only to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel
Matthew 15:24 I am NOT sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Jesus very own words to his 11 disciples(after his resurrection from the grave and his forty days of infallible proofs, and speaking of the things pertaining to the “kingdom of God”=(Luke 24:44-:53, Acts 1:3)):: John 20:21 As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you!!!!!
Jesus came to this earth in his deity(born as a baby) in human flesh to minister to God’s Chosen Nation of Israel to Bring that Nation “back to God”: THAT very Government of Israel would NOT. They refused their very God, the Son, their King, their Messiah and Judge. AND demanded His crucifixion. Exodus 19:1 – :6 That is why Jesus, their Christ sent the 12 apostles with this same “Doctrine” in Acts 1: thro 12: to bring that Nation of Israel back to himself SO THAT Israel could be a Nation of “Priest” to all the ‘world”. That very Government refused and “stoned Stephen”: who had the Very Holy Spirit which shined as the face of an “angel”. Math.12:31-:32
Jesus very words to Israel became true: Matthew 23:1 – :26; ”:37 – :39″!
WHY is that important? Romans 11:7. WHAT THEN??? Israel hath NOT obtained it, the rest were “blinded”! :8 thro :15 explain they are still “blinded”. ((God turned to the Gentiles with the “mystery” of Ephesians 3:1 :9)) Rom. 11:25 explains that they will be blinded UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles “be come-in”. Israel is ‘today’ still blinded.
God’s Purpose, THEN: Romans 11:25; :26–all Israel shall be saved, as it is written; :27 FOR THIS is my “covenant unto them = Israel”!
Astounded – my wife and I both professed in our early teens. That was very EASY – neither of us knew what we were getting into. After 50 years of “professing”, we left due to finding out about the history and its coverup. It was very HARD for my wife – it was over a year before she could even tell her hard core relatives who were elders, a worker, etc. All of the people we thought were our friends would have nothing to do with us. We were slandered by the elder and his wife and the overseer and who knows who else. It was VERY hard, but we are now in a better place.
@Don’t fence me in – I am sorry you had that experience, and understand for some it may be traumatic (which I have my own theory on). However, no one forbids you to leave. I happen to not care what other people think of me, so I have left and come back, and left again, and came back…and every time…it was far easier to leave than it was to come back (pride)…I didn’t want to dress like they were (no scripture to back it), and I didn’t want to stop playing baseball (I kept right on, and played football too), and I certainly didn’t do either in a dress. I chose modesty. Modesty is a standard Jesus set, and is still the standard in every country in the world – whether they allow religion or not.
I am here, because I have the ability to help the victims. That is where my energy is going.
@Astounded – I have been working on that even before I posted about it. I remember it being done, and it was spoken about at convention. I’m being either ghosted by some, they are searching for it, or I am getting “I have no knowledge” – although I know for a fact that the one who responded was sitting by the platform when it was discussed. If I can get my hands on it, I did/do plan to post it!
Watchman: March 1, We are sorry you feel anyone who has the fact: that the 2×2’s is a cult: is evil and destructive. That is not a true. You do not know their journey. You do not know their experience, nor how they learned it is a cult. Do not try to degrade their experience of learning that terrible fact: as they seek to understand how to move into a knowledge of God as is written in God’s Word. The abuse by a so-called ministry in the Name of God has destroyed many trusting and honest souls.
It is a fact that Wm. Irvine laid the foundation and others built upon that foundation; and those facts have been very well researched and documented. The ‘no-doctrine’ basis of: we only follow Jesus is just a by-line. It is not based on God’s written Word. We are NOT trying to destroy the 2×2 way nor it’s fellowship. The group is doing a very good-job by themselves as they ignore God’s Word as written. ALSO have criminally abused many innocent souls and broken many criminal, governmental and civil laws. This fact of investigation by the FBI that henoffour is so plainly explaining, is based on the very doctrines of Irvine and the past and present leaders boast about, yet try to hide.
Your accusation of weaponizing the fact of the term “cult” is ironic. Any damage to this group HAS BEEN done BY Themselves. We shudder and mourn the reality for sooo many honest and trusting souls who have no answers for this confusion and betrayal.
Astounded – my wife and I were cult members for over 60 years each. A few times, friends and coworkers told me I was in a cult. That was very offensive to me and the friendship with those people was never the same. We stayed in the cult because we were told by leadership that any that died “outside” were destined to Hell. Even though we we both molested, knew that CSA/SA was covered up, and sat in meetings with verbally abusive elders for years, we still were very “faithful”. It was finally when the lie about the origin (William) was made known to us – that we quietly left. Even then, it still took several years after that to realize that we had been trapped in a cult. Thus, one cannot really fault current cult members to realize what they are participating in.
I want to add another abuse of power…if you felt FORCED to get vaccinated with the COVID vaccine, because a professing “nurse” (the one I’m referring to has made people believe she’s a doctor, but she’s not), or a worker told you, “You’ll never be able to have fellowship again” or anything even worded close to that…Report it! It’s simply another form of abuse of their authority/power.
The same goes for being forced to meet with a bunch of anti-vaxxers.
It seems like one thing that started to open more people’s eyes to examples of damaging decision-making in our fellowship, was during the pandemic when some took what appeared to be uncaring approaches in their local meeting or region.
(No point debating Covid issues here, but) It illustrates the lack of shared understanding about how to approach things in a way that shows love to our neighbours, regardless of the topic. We’ve come to realize that unloving decisions have been made about many issues, very much including child sexual abuse.
Yes!!!
@Watchman – you missed the point. No one should be FORCED to do anything. I don’t care whether you chose to vaccinate or not, that’s a personal choice. We are talking about abuse.
henoffour. I didn’t miss the point. I was pointing out that you missed half of the point! :)
@Watchman – I didn’t miss anything. First of all, you can NOT be “forced” to meet with anyone. You chose to attend, or you didn’t. I was pointing out it was an abusive post. Wings For Truth is not a place to spout anything about our opinions. There are people that got the vaccines, there are people who couldn’t take the vaccine, and their are those who chose not to take it. I hope everyone did what they could be comfortable with, because here in America, everyone has the right to choose what is best for them.
Yes, Watchman, I agree.
Setting the record straight re Jerome Frandle
Peter M. was on the worker staff in WI when some of his victims in MI came forward with allegations for the first time. Jerome Frandle was informed of the allegations and was clearly surprised. Within days, Jerome traveled to WI and convinced Charles Thain to send Peter home, dismissed from the work. Charles T. covered up Peter’s dismissal in WI, but Jerome openly discussed the allegations against Peter in MI.
Months later when Peter was brought to trial in MI, Jerome Frandle and most of the MI worker staff attended the court proceedings and supported the victims. Not Peter.
@4thgenerationinmeetings – Thank you for sharing that. I have known Jerome for 37 years, and never saw or heard him do anything that was “off”, but…it made me really angry that he was told about abuse and never called the authorities to get them involved (because he was a mandatory reporter). I know he paid for that by spending three days in jail, but the victims pay their entire lives. I am glad he’s standing with the victims in this case.
Jerome and Bill Denk had no first hand information regarding the crimes of Peter H. and Darren B. Their information was second or third hand hearsay. They erroneously thought that hearsay information was not reportable by them, so instead they vigorously encouraged victims and parents to report to law enforcement themselves.
Jerome consulted at the time with one of the Friends who was a professional in the field of CSA. She queried state and county authorities whether or not Jerome as a non-ordained minister was a mandated reporter. The people who were queried did not know the answer. The state reporting law had been recently updated and there had not yet been any guidance issued to state agencies. The state had not yet done out reach training for clergy regarding how, when, where, to whom, and in what circumstances they should report.
Should Jerome have reported? Yes. Could he have handled things better? Probably, and I think he would agree in hindsight. Was he covering up? No. To my knowledge, Jerome did the best he knew to do at the time with right motives and always put the needs of victims first.
Wrong is wrong, no matter what the mores of the day are. I object to people defending decisions made decades ago to cover up abuse on the basis that back in that day that was how those issues were commonly handled. On the other hand, it also seems unfair for critics to sanctimoniously (not speaking of you) apply today’s knowledge and laws retrospectively.
It is my hope that at least some of the cover ups in the past were not done cynically, but rather out of ignorance. It is also my hope that the days of cover-ups are now over.
No worker has, nor has access to the list in it’s entirety, is my understanding. There’s been some worry that influence or friendships would influence who’s name were kept on the list and who’s weren’t. But, anyone can call Advocates For The Truth and check to see if someone’s name is ON the list. Just know, that if you do call, make sure it’s an emergency, as we do not want to take time away from the victims. These ladies are not being paid to work on this. They were all a part of this fellowship at one time or another, and are not hateful. They aren’t “tearing the truth down/apart” they are trying to be good samaritans and help those who are wounded and those that survived. The overseers in the ministry (and those who chose to abuse) is who is to blame for tearing this apart.
Yes, these fine ladies gave the ministry many months to make changes, while intercepting phone calls from victims and providing help to those victims…while our ministry has mostly sat on their hands and provided zip. Darryl did get a victim fund set up pretty quickly so that money could be available to get therapy or whatever was needed for the ones coming forward. He also launched the “Zero Tolerance” stance, back-tracked when challenged about getting all the predators out of meetings and keeping them out, by saying “what he meant was, there was no tolerance for not reporting”…then, changed direction when he understood that wasn’t enough help for the sake of the victims. No other overseer has been willing to take that stand.
A close relative in Wisconsin worshiped the ground that Thain walked on. This relative met each Sunday with a convicted CSA offender and a known SA offender. He tolerated them both, but was verbally very intolerant of any and all good Christians and everybody else that were not in the Cult. This man has now crossed the Rainbow Bridge. I often wonder, IF he is in Heaven, how does he treat the many non-Cult members that are there?
@Bucky, I am sure that even if you didn’t agree with your close relative your desire is that they be in heaven. There is much we don’t understand about heaven, but we know we will be satisfied. I personally don’t mind those of you who consider this way of Jesus being a cult. That has been true from Jesus day until now. The multitude thought Jesus and His followers were just a cult. I am a bit surprised at how many on this site refer to the 2×2’s in a derogatory manner because it was Jesus who asked, no told, the apostles and the 70 to go for to preach in that manner. So was that wrong? Do you think he misspoke? It might be good for some who think it just started up to read a good history book, like the pilgrim Church, where they will find in every generation since Christ there were those who followed the teachings of Jesus. Yes they had the scriptures long before printing presses. And many went forth 2×2 taking the gospel throughout the world.
Amen: As Wings For Truth seeks to inform and henoffour explains how serious and the very depth of the FBI investigation into the 2×2’s criminal behavior and many other unlawful behaviors and practices; we understand it is only expected to be a discussion of the validity of “Doctrine”. You have an interesting explanation for 2×2 Doctrine. Three times, three men record Jesus’ sending his 12 chosen disciples to go before him to preach to the Nation of Israel the GOOD NEWS of their “promised, perfect “Kingdom of heaven on Earth is at hand. AND to do the miracles, signs and wonders that was prophesied as the sign THAT their promised King, Messiah and Judge was in their midst. One Man, Mark records Jesus sent them forth by two and two(= four(4). Matthew and Luke do not record Jesus sent the 12 forth two and 2 (= 4). WHY?
Three men record preaching the gospel and healing everywhere. Not one of the workers do this. Nor do they obey the instructions when enter a ‘place’ to enter into a HOUSE AND to abide there till ye depart that ‘place’. Luke even makes it much stronger. Go NOT from house to house!
What were they to preach to that chosen Nation of Israel? Your promised ‘Kingdom of Heaven on Earth is at hand(your King is in your midst(Greek). Just as John the Baptist(Math. 3:2) and Jesus (Mat. 4:17, :23) preached as Jesus began his ministry.
Matthew 10:5 Jesus commanded them saying: GO NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city go the Samaritans “enter” ye NOT. Math. 10:6 BUT go rather to the “lost sheep of the house of “Israel”. Math. 10:7 As ye go preach “saying”, the kingdom of heaven IS AT Hand. ((The very Kingdom on Earth that God promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:1 :2; 15:5 – :7 and :18-:21 and that land is exactly described.). (Forever) LORD MADE a ‘covenant”!
The promise of their King is 2 Samuel 7:12 — David’s ”seed”… I will establish his kingdom, :13 — throne of his kingdom forever; :13 – :15 throne and kingdom shall be established for EVER! ((Jesus was born King of the Jews Math 2:2)) Matthew 19:28 confirms this and the place and authority Jesus gives to his 12 apostles to sit on 12 thrones “judging” the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus died King of the Jews(Math:27:37; and Luke 23:38; and John 18:33 – :34, 19:19
Just who decides what verses IS mandatory to follow or you go to Hell? Just who decides what verses are to be “ignored” and of NO Importance? Such as Matthew 15:24: Jesus’ very own words: I AM NOT SENT but unto the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”. OR Jesus very own words to the 12, two times Jesus does not require the 12 go two and two: only once does Jesus send the 12 forth by 2 and 2 (=4,NOT)? Over 70% of record of the 12, there is either just One or more than Two recorded together. Why? if that determines your only ministry to eternal salvation with Jesus?
Yes, Luke 10:1 records Jesus appointed 70 also and sent them two and two( = 4) or you will go to hell.? AND they also follow exactly Luke 10:4 through :9; and preach THAT the Kingdom of God: a nation and land promised to Abraham’s SEED is come nigh unto you. And preach that land and kingdom on Earth forever: Revelation 21:2; God’s holy city the NEW Jerusalem coming down out of heaven; :12 – 12 gates – names of 12 tribes of Israel; :14 – 12 foundations – names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. Yes, you must come and be a proselyte to THAT Nation of Israel!
Amen, just how is it decided – just which of Jesus’ words to that Nation of Israel; decides what part of what “belief” alone decides who goes to hell? AND decides just what group the FBI is unjust when it investigates God’s Only One True Way?
I grew up thinking it was “only my dad’s friend” (Canadian worker) that did things to children. He was immediately removed from the work. But, sadly, he was not turned in to law enforcement, and some poor unsuspecting lady ended up married to him. Yes, his name has been since given to Canadian and American authorities, and that of all the other countries he preached in. Now, I know it was happening everywhere!!
But, I do not believe anyone is in heaven or hell, because Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him “in paradise”. He was not referring to heaven. The research I have done, shows paradise as a place of rest. If people rose from the grave immediately and went to heaven, the scripture that speaks of “those who sleep in Christ” that would rise and be taken up before those who are still amongst the living would be inaccurate, and we know that’s not likely. So, after coming to the conclusion that that didn’t make sense, I started digging. Reading the Bible (in many different versions), checking the translation of Aramaic (Jesus native tongue) to English, etc. it became clear that we are simply going to paradise (taking a dirt nap) until the Judgement Day. That day comes after Jesus return.
I feel as you do when it come to people who have stepped away from an abusive situation (this fellowship). I don’t see them as “lost” – everyone is supposed to be working out their own salvation in “fear and trembling”, so there’s absolutely no excuse for anyone to look on another and judge. Especially when we are specifically told NOT to judge! My hope is that all would know peace, and know the joy of allowing God to be working within us all…whatever that looks like.
@Asstounded. I am not sure how to respond to your multitude of questions to me. I made one attempt earlier, my post was awaiting moderation, then got posted for several hours and then disappeared? All I can conclude is either the moderators don’t agree with one another or you complained and they removed it?
I find it interesting that your response to how Jesus sent forth the 12 and the 70 is questioning who decides whether to do what he says or not? You are the one who keeps telling us we need to take the Word of God AS WRITTEN. Does as written only apply to what you agree with?
WINGS takes no position on any theological views of participants. WINGS exists to support CSA victims and works to prevent new victims. If a post here does not address CSA or SA, it has an elevated risk of not getting posted.
This format of this site is not designed for debate. The format is designed for commentary of articles posted. There are plenty of sites out there for theological, biblical and political debates.
I do most of the moderating here so you can jump all over me. There have been no complaints against your posts.
Is there a master list of those with allegations published somewhere? Every day it seems new names pop up on one site and are never mentioned on other sites.
Just today I saw the name Greg Peck mentioned Feb. 2 on “2×2 Church Updates” Facebook. I have not seen this name elsewhere. Greg Peck is a current elder in Iowa with allegations of grooming and childhood sexual abuse. This man was released from his job at a school for inappropriate behavior with a female student in 2007. Jeff Thayer was the overseer at this time and was allegedly aware of the abuse and did nothing about Greg Peck’s elder status.
The Peck’s are known for holding an annual “detasseling” event at their farm for young kids. The kids stay for several weeks, detasseling corn for which they are paid. The girls stay overnight at the Peck’s house. This event has been held for decades and families whose children attended were never informed of Greg Peck’s prior sexually abusive behavior.
I personally know young kids, now adults, who attended, one who is a female relative who detasseled for several years.
I am daily appalled at the lack of concern the leadership of this group has for it’s young members.
WINGS does not publish allegations.
Wings, I understand there would be legal ramifications for you to publish a list. My question was if there is a list ANYWHERE.
A list of people with allegations would be a very valuable tool for parents. Many children and teens attend “young kids’ get-togethers” in order to socialize. A list like this would prevent parents from unwittingly sending their children to a home and situation that is unsafe.
It is very telling that someone like myself needs to ask this question. It should be the workers’ responsibility, who supposedly care for the “flock”, to notify all members of these people. Again, the lack of concern for young children is appalling.
@is there a list? I am in complete agreement. If I had a copy, it would have been posted from the get-go! I have sent in things to Wings as soon as I get my hands on things, more than once.
The ladies at Advocates for Truth have at least one of those lists, and I have heard that they were merging lists because the other person with a list was afraid of legal ramifications should she share it. Cynthia Liles has been working to make sure it’s allowed to be legally shared (so no one gets sued for posting it, or updating it, or sharing it). She’s only ONE person, and the other two ladies who are also DONATING their time and efforts to this endeavor (remove all predators hopefully by conviction) and all those who KNEW and sat idlly by will be made to face consequenses, can only do so much! We have to be patient. One thing that would help, is people donating money to their non-profit, to get more help, or donating your time by offering to work with them…they are working almost around the clock! The phones are constantly ringing and they don’t want to miss even ONE victim. They are needing to take statements, to find them therapy, to get them to the proper law-enforcement agencies. And More!
The workers do not have that list. There was concern that it wouldn’t be kept accurately (like their friends might not make it on the list) or that they would again, keep it a secret. So, telling the workers has not been encouraged at all. Nor should it be. This isn’t something they should be taking care of – it’s in the right hands, as there is hope that it ALL will come out, and we can finally get to the point of “no secrets” – a very high bar, but our goal, none the less. Plus, they will pay for their keeping of secrets!
It has always boggled my mind why anyone would take sexual crimes, marriage issues, financial issues, family feuds, etc. to ANY worker.
My advice, keep your kids away from ANYWHERE that you can’t be certain there’s no danger, or go to the get-together and offer to help out. An extra set of eyes is always helpful when there’s a bunch of kids around. We had large gatherings for kids for 13 years, and it was our goal to keep them all safe, and yet let them have a good time. We kept it somewhat structured so there wasn’t a ton of “free time” and no electronics were allowed (the only phone calls they were allowed were to their parents). We were hard on kids who got out of line (by trying to pick fights, or bringing inappropriate magazines, or starting food fights) but, the respected us enough to straighten up, because they didn’t want to end up on the “do not invite” list. We always appreciated having more adult eyes and were SO thankful when parents would offer to come and help us. Managing 40-50 kids at a time is kind of like herding cats – ha! But, no matter who came – we watched the other adults too.
Elder Peck and his wife in lowa and are very “WELL KNOWN” according to the Facebook link mentioned above. Scores of kids went to their farm each year to work. Coverup Overseer Thayer was also “well known”, even more-so now, after news of his divorced girlfriend broke awhile back. Just reinforcing my previous statement – just because someone is “well known” does not make them trustworthy.
@is there a list?
Than answer is, there are two lists that were being kept, with each call being given time, to understand how the predator should be quantifited (for example: Level 1 offender, Level 2, etc.). They have been trying to merge the two, and then the FBI came in and got that list (there was a subpoena). The ones holding the list wanted each name to be cleared or charges brought, AND they have been working on HOW to share it (without getting into any legal bind). The most recent news is, it’s ready to be published, but it will only show the ones who have been charged, or they have admitted to at least one of their crimes (I say ONE because predators always have more than one victim). It will continue to be updated as charges come, or admittance…the list is far from finished! But, with the added calls pouring in from victims now that the FBI has become involved, the one holding that list of names feels like it’s more important to be on the phone helping victims, and the list has to wait. Advocates for the truth only has three members working almost day and night on this, and they are seeking help…if you’d like to volunteer. They aren’t getting paid, and any money coming in (donated) is going straight to the victims to help get care for them. So, please hang on…it’s coming!
Amen : March 4, 6:26pm
Thank you for your post. We read your earlier post of March 3. We responded to it this morning. Sorry for your experience. I did not complain to Wings. I have great respect for your present condition. The knowledge of the FBI investigation helps us to have hope that all the dark secrets are brought to light and it is with knowledge and forthrightness everything is explained to each and everyone. Maybe FBI investigation will be able to do for victims WHAT Wings has been trying to do, without co-operation since 2007.
Wings has a much bigger view of this moderating than to listen to commentors who think they have complaints. Wings does an excellent service with this site. I’m certain there are unnumbered victims who have been helped as they silently view and better understand their own experience. Hopefully that allows some to reach-out to Wings for more help.
Amen, Please try again.
Amen March 4, 6:24: Thank you for your response. As this investigation of the “abuse” within the 2×2 cult has become a huge fact finding mission and ballooned into a world wide desperate need for mental and emotional care for each and every victim, I am not sure of your goals as you post or comment.
Our goal is to help each that is deeply affected by this abuse and “scandal of leaders refusing” to honestly in deep love and Godly care to enfold the hurting souls and Shepard them to health again! This the leaders have not DONE! In fact they have denied, then said: we will have listening meetings. Then pretended to care. Then tried to pretend to draw-up guidelines, ETC. While all blew-up with the knowledge of ‘real secret meetings and secrete decisions’ that revealed what was important to the LEAD OVERSEERS.
We are not interested in ‘theology’. We are only interested in help to each, to help them see WHAT God has actually left-on -record in His Word. This would free them of the burden of trying to please and protect the One Only True Way. We have been their and done that: with our complete being!
When we are learning Our Bible as written, we have been free to understand and value the “liberty” by which Christ has made us free.
Galatians 5: 1 Stand “fast in the ‘liberty’ where with Christ has made US FREE, and be NOT entangled AGAIN with the YOKE of bondage.
Ephesians 2:4 – :9 :4. BUT GOD… :5 hath quickened us with Christ; :8 explains this “liberty” that is not of Works(:9); :8 – for by “grace are ye saved — through “faith: and that NOT of yourselves: it is the “gift of God”!
Amen, our desire for you to understand THAT Jesus said : My kingdom is not of this world(John 18:36) is clarified in Strongs Concordance as the “world system”IS that Jesus is talking to ‘Pilate’ in the Roman court :33, IS answering if he, Jesus IS the King of the Jews. And Jesus explains in :36 – :38. That he is King (of the Jews) and to this “end” was I born.
Matthew 19:16 – :21 and Math. 23:1-:4 explain the burdens Jesus require of the Jews in Jesus in his flesh in His earthly ministry to Nation of Israel. The answer to your question is to know to whom Jesus was ministering. We appreciate your response and realize it is our fault because we were unable to clearly explain When, Who, Where, How and What.
Henoffour, Thank you for this information. I am assuming the one who has the list is not a worker. If this is true, it again proves the catalyst for changes to protect children comes from outside the ministry.
Oops! Somehow my response ended up way above this comment. Sorry about that. Please scroll up to the post up above. Thanks
@Bucky, I do daily Medicaid applications. Medicaid has over 80 programs in our state. Medicaid has changed in many ways since Covid. If they have no work, they can get Medicaid. There is no justification to this period. If no job, they can get Medicaid. Medicaid is different in every state, but Missouri, if not working are eligible for Medicaid PERIOD. NO ifs, ands or buts. You do not have to be capable of working like Social security. If you don’t have work or assets, you can get Missouri Medicaid..there ya go. I know I do Medicaid daily.
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A lot of things may be legal, but that does not make them right. I am talking about able bodied workers that were on Medicare LONG BEFORE Covid. These people were perfectly capable of working. During this same time period, our daughter worked without a company insurance plan. She qualified for Medicare but did not think if was right.
Bucky, getting medicare when you are fully able bodied to work, is simply perpetuating a false hood, or lying. You are taking something that is unjustly earned and it is wrong. I remember very distinctly sitting at my patents table after dinner with an older women worker named Vera Smith. As she picked her teeth, Vera laughed and said how it was fine to tell a “white lie “. As a kid, I thought that was crazy. Now an older adult myself I still think that is crazy. Lying is something that is no big deal in “the way “. That is why workers take things they don’t deserve, like medicare. And tell “white lies “. The pastor of the church I now attend tells, “a half truth is a full lie “. I agree with him.
@Justonelittlevoice – you don’t know WHY the FBI is asking. Please be careful on what you say.
@full lie –
It is amazing what some of those in the ministry say and do…in a bad way.
It would be nice if they would all start telling the truth, but I can’t seem to get anyone to speak the truth these days. Guess the lawyers (sad they are hiding behind them) have told them to keep their mouths shut and admit to nothing.
If they were truly God’s servants, they would be honest and accept the consequences, so this could all be over for the sheep/lambs. But, instead, the FBI is going to have to be the ones we count on for help to force change. To make any meeting safe for a child (0-18). To keep women and young men safe.
The tears God must be shedding over the horror he has been watching for decades, and now that they have the opportunity to speak up, they are hiding!! Lying to the masses that “all is well”…there’s not one part of this fellowship that’s “Well”…the ONLY thing that’s “Well”, is those who are honest that have a relationship with God and are only following Jesus. Those who abuse others…because they are making light of Jesus going to the cross for mankind. Maybe they don’t understand that sins aren’t forgiven if we aren’t having an honest relationship with God, so we can be honest with others!
Then, because they don’t understand the scripture, they are saying the criminals should be allowed into the fellowship?!! When the thief was on the cross, Jesus had the power to take himself down, and the thief down – he did NEITHER. There are natural consequenses for human/natural wrongdoing. They do not get to be in fellowship with God’s people. Doesn’t mean we aren’t forgiving, just means we understand the scripture and so we aren’t gullible/stupid.
Henoffour-the problem is that many of the members are just as guilty as the leadership in that they turned their back when they knew a worker or “friend in the Way” was active in CSA/SA. Looking back, I now know that my own parents knew of workers doing these terrible things. I remember one time, a very weird worker was staying the night at our place and by mom told us kids to lock our bedroom doors. A few years later, this same creep was caught in the act with a young girl on the other side of the state. He was then sent to another state. Many, including my parents, could have prevented this horrible act if they would have stood up and did what was right.
wanted to add, they also knew all about Ellsworth Shilling (sp – ?) and his CSA/SA acts and totally covered him and his acts up. I encourage all to report him and others to the FBI, even though some of these guys may now be dead. I will report my molester and others to the FBI soon.
@Bucky – Yes, it’s at all levels, but the reason I focus on the Ministry, is because they contributed in the biggest way to this mess (with sexual abuse of all kinds, AND mental abuse by forbidding victims or their families to report, which would have allowed for healing with the victim, AND stopped the perp from harming another human) and they are responsible for the demise of this fellowship! They have attacked the sheep and the lambs with complete abandon to anything righteous. They have callously tossed them out of fellowship because they didn’t want to “deal with” their cries, nor did they respect a parent coming forward on behalf of their wounded child and even heaped MORE abuse onto the parents, because they dared to seek justice and save others the pain and agony they were experiencing.
Some are even ignorant enough to blame those who are fighting for the victims. When it’s the abusers who are fully to blame. There wouldn’t be ANY need for those of us fighting (in righteous indignation) if they had been living what they were preaching or hiding behind.
I still believe that Jesus plan is right, and when the Apostles took the Gospel (Jesus Gospel) to the Greeks, I don’t see anywhere that He made changes to what he had taught His disciples. The disciples and apostles were together, and we do read of Jesus teaching them, but there’s no record of WHAT He was teaching them at that time.
There HAS to be major changes made…I don’t want this for my grandchildren…or anyone else’s children or grandchildren!
met to say Medicaid – all other legitimate churches offer health insurance to their ministers.
…”all other legitimate churches offer health insurance to their ministers.” True statement. Very true. I know because I have talked with a pastor at our church about his medical coverage. Also true; our new church is seeing the largest increase in the number of people who are in attendance. Breaking records for a church that has been in the area for decades. The message is to meet people where they are at and take them where they need to be. Very good people and honestly helping others in this dark world. Surprise to me, there are no “collection plates “ and no mention of money! Just the opposite of what I was told about “worldly churches “ my entire life sitting in meetings. Just another lie from a worker. I wonder if meeting attendance numbers are growing? I do know the chairs for my family and me are now empty there.
henoffour: It is with gratitude we witness your deep commitment. Oh, if only we had that support and your understanding of acceptable behavior by the WAY. Our treatment by the ‘powers that be’ and all who worship them would have been a breeze; when we finally removed ourselves from their many levels of hierarchy n their self righteousness.
Actually, as look-back; we needed that complete shunning to go to God instead of man. As we tried to learn God’s heart, soul, and Spirit, time and again - we were sent right back into God’s Word. Ephesians 6:17: to protect ourselves from the wiles of “devil”-:11-:12. WHY? Was this advice from Paul so very important?
Ephesians 6: ’18’ for all saints
Ephesians 6: ’19’ and for “himself” That utterance may be give unto me(Paul), that I may open my mouth boldly, (WHY) to make ‘known the “mystery” of the “gospel”. WHAT is that?
Ephesians 3:1-:9: :2 – :3 a dispensation of the the “Grace of God”; which is given to me TO YOU WARD: WHAT is that?
Ephesians 3:3…((as I Paul wrote Afore in few ‘words’ :4 When ye read, ye may understand MY KNOWLEDGE in the “mystery of Christ; ))
When Jesus and the 12 ministered: IT was all about “prophecy” — all had been foretold that Jesus in his flesh ministered and everything the 12 ministered to Israel was “the promise of their covenanted “Kingdom of Heaven on Earth: John saw that Heavenly Kingdom of Heaven on Earth descend down: Revelation 21:2 I John saw— the Holy city, new Jerusalem coming down-out of heaven……This was a very ‘physical’ holy city THAT had been promised to God’s Chosen Nation of Israel by God through prophecy for thousands of years. That was Israel’s Gospel = Good News. That is what Jesus, His 12 apostles and those believers in Acts 2:41 ””Who continued in the “apostles doctrine”-:42 WHICH is::: :45 ””BELIEVERS “SOLD ALL– had everything common as they waited for their “”promised Kingdom of Heaven on Earth!
WHILE they waited they followed the Law of Moses; God gave to Moses; which IS the “apostle’s Doctrine”! Those 3000 believers did the “apostle’s ‘Doctrine’ continuing ‘daily with one accord in the “temple”! Those believers were scattered from Jerusalem in Acts 8:1: preached in Acts 11:19 preaching the WORD –to Jews only –.
Acts 11:20 Some of them were men of……. and spake unto “Grecians” ((=Jews who lived in Greece (Acts 6:1)(( you called them Greeks, yes, they were because they were born there and were citizens of Greece::, and (Acts 2:9, 10, 11) Jews and proselytes were at the “Feast of Pentecost” a feast Day commanded of all devout Jews))
Henoffou, this is the chapter in Acts that changes from the Good-News to Jews of their promised Kingdom by Jesus, then the 12 and those Jews scattered– ”changes to” — the ministry given by the Risen Lord and Saviour – Jesus Christ FROM HIS seat in Heaven beside God the Father: TO Acts 11:25 “Saul”
The Gospel to the Jews for their promised Kingdom was to the Jews, only. Matthew 15:24
Acts 11:25 Barnabas went to seek Paul. WHY? Acts 9:15, Ephesians 3:1 For you Gentles.. Acts 11:26 – Antioch is a Gentile city, in a Gentile Nation. Those disciples = believers became an “assemble”= “church” and were called “”Christians”” (1st)first ((NOT Jews or proselytes as in Acts 11:19 – :24)) in Antioch. When you learn what Gospel Paul was given in Galatians 2:7 which was much different than that given to Peter; you will understand the WORD Jewish and proselytes compared to the WORD Christians.
Oh, we know you have so much responsibility to help the “abused” and try to reach the ‘overseers’ for their responsibilities for the healing of the abused: that it is hard to focus on The Gospel of the Grace of God given to Paul to go far hence to the Gentiles. Ephesians 1:12-:13 and Eph. 2:4-:9 But God, and Romans 3:21 BUT NOW: Paul records results of Christ’s Gospel given to Paul from his throne in Heaven after God turned from Israel with their Gospel for a season. Romans 11:7 thro 27 explains.
Henoffour, If you were able to teach people about the Dispensation of the Grace of God given to Paul by Christ from Heaven, with your great ability and deep love for our scarred and hurting souls : it would be a great balm for their hearts and mind as they would Learn “it is not what we are or can do; BUT what our Lord and Saviour – Jesus Christ has done which is only recorded in Paul’s letters to those who believed Paul’s Gospel of the Grace of God.
As we face the breaking of the World News of the FBI Investigation into seven decades of our very life and soul; it brings back soul searing damage to us and sooo very many whom the WAY tried to completely destroy and annihilate. We have God’s complete Word to comfort and assure. As we witness so many who are facing this great reality and take-down of all they have ever known.
I appreciate everyone who’s been doing what they can to help the victims. I feel like I haven’t done nearly enough, but as my eyes are opened to opportunity and subject matter, I am moving into more. I just hope other’s will also continue to be moved to do whatever they can to help. If it’s not with time, then perhaps a donation to Advocates For The Truth to their victim fund. I appreciate your encouragement. There’s nothing more healing than God being the center of our life, and learning about His Son and His teachings. It doesn’t take a degree from an institution to understand that what’s been allowed, on any level, doesn’t match up with Jesus teachings. The fact that none of the overseers have had the backbone to stand up and do the right thing, is very heartbreaking…but, how can they, when they have pilaged, hated, and fought amongst themselves ever since William & Co came to this country? I think they missed the verses in John 13:33-35.
please be careful on your allegations.
To address possible misconduct by mandatory reporters and others, states often enact criminal offenses for those who fail to report and for those who file false reports. For example, Minnesota law provides that a mandatory reporter who fails to perform their duty can face misdemeanor charges. Likewise, the state provides a separate misdemeanor offense for filing a false child abuse report. In Minnesota, filing a false report of child abuse occurs when someone:
@Amen – all the more reason for Elders and those in the ministry to not keep secrets!
The FBI wants to know what we know (what’s been told to us), it’s NOT our responsiblity to decide if it’s true or not. The FBI will determine validity, because they are investigating each case, while also seeing the number of calls PER NAME.
”please be careful on your allegations”…
Of all the decades of meetings, I have NEVER seen or heard a false child abuse allegation! I have, however, seen child sex abuse swept under the rug multiple times. It is time to stop hiding the abuse, “for the sake of the kingdom “. The idea of, “things happen to everyone “ needs to stop! Instead turn in the evil abusers, that for their moment of selfish pleasure, cause life lasting harm to the innocent victims. Be strong.
I would agree with your call to speak up if you have seen a child abuse. I personally can go one better than you, in my decades of attending meetings I have not only not seen a false allegation of child abuse, I have never seen a case of actual child abuse nor heard directly from anyone who has seen child abuse. From the testimonies of those on this site that obviously doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. Glad there are those now speaking out. I think direct speaking out of what has personally happen are very convincing. Generalized statements that accuse others from those not personally involved are more questionable. Just my opinion.
” I have not only not seen a false allegation of child abuse, I have never seen a case of actual child abuse ”…
Amen — you did not grow up in the religion. The abuse happens to the vulnerable and that means young and innocent. My wife was sexually molested by her brother in law when she was 10. Her mother was molested while she was a child. My direct family members were sexually abused. In-laws were sexually assaulted. Also, amen, you being an elder for decades could have prevented you from hearing of the abuse due to the tier system. Not being an elder myself, I heard and was privy to information from the “masses “ that were not in leadership. Leadership is more insulted from the “talk”. That is why my wife was told, “for the sake of the kingdom “ keep your head down and your mouth shut about abuse. My wife has kept true to that belief until recently. Now she has reported her abuse to the FBI. If other people abused by this same guy also report, there still might be possible justice here on earth. If not, hells fire is already burning.
@rime has come. I feel terrible about your experience. As we all know it is something we all face at one time or another. Since the statistics tell us 30 % is within families, your experience is even more tragic. you are right my wife and I did not grow up in this fellowship but that does not mean we did not see abuse from family members, mine from a cousin who tried to make me do what I knew was wrong and so I said no! I could tell many other experiences but they would be of no profit here.
Please remember that while we were not raised in this fellowship, we have 4 wonderful children, many grandchildren and great grandchildren who were. We were always thankful for the influence of the workers on all of their lives.
Your observations about elders being insulated from “talk” is interesting. I have never felt any different than others in our little meeting. Just another struggling soul. I have also never gotten the feeling from others that they considered me different than them. I have heard that the strongest meeting is one where all members have the marks of an elder and I feel blessed to have known that feeling in our meeting.
@Amen, please don’t ever under-estimate the insulation, as you say, of those at different levels of a social hierarchy. People decide – often even without consciously realizing they are making a decision – what is appropriate to share with others all the time, based on what they perceive will be of interest, what will result in a positive or negative reaction, etc etc.
A lot has already been written even on this website related to the psychology and sociology of abuse.
Suffice to say that people in one demographic group, or at one level of a hierarchy (even if you don’t perceive the hierarchy yourself, or “feel any different” as you say), are often insulated from the experiences of people at other levels. For example, I’ve been shocked and sobered to realize that many of my male friends and family members are completely unaware of the sexualized harassment that almost all women and girls encounter on a regular basis just walking down the street, going about our business. It’s so pervasive we somehow accept it among ourselves as females, but often we don’t even think to bring it up in “decent” male company because we’ve been subtly taught that it’s not polite or interesting or appropriate in that social context. (This personal experience is also backed up by sociological research.)
So none of us should be surprised or disbelieving when people say that it’s very likely that we ALL are acquainted with at least some people who have been abused within our fellowship, even if we don’t actually know about the abuse.
@observer, thank you for your wise observations. I would agree that females are subject to abuses that most of us males can hardly fathom. It is prevalent in the world and it should be absent from the fellowship, that is the plan of God. When it creeps in, there are no excuses. It simply means we have not died to self and given our lives to Christ who will give us the power to rise above. I believe that every child of God has known the patience and mercy of God as he awaits our submission to His working in our lives.
I was sexually abused by an elder right in front of my parents. It was made to look playful and silly. It was not. He grabbed me from our car, threw me over his shoulder, hand on my butt. Then took me into his house, laid me over his lap and pretended to spank me. I was 11. What do you think was under me as he ‘spanked’ me? Yep. An erection. He was getting off on the whole thing in front of everyone.
@Deanna Lynn – I’m so very sorry that you experienced that. The lengths these people have gone to to pleasure themselves, at the expense of another’s life, is revolting. If you need support and haven’t been able to get any, please contact Advocates for the Truth http://www.advocatesforthetruth.com and they can connect you to someone who would be a good fit for your needs.
Please, if you haven’t already, and you feel you can, let the FBI know about this too.
https://forms.fbi.gov/2×2 you can ask them for support while they interview too.
@Observer – Thank you, for your post. I agree, however, I am also amazed at how many boys and young men are targets as well. My hope is that every victim-survivor will find the courage to come forward because there are some of us listening, believing, and doing what we can. No worker, no matter their place in the hierchy has the right to tell anyone to keep a violation to themselves – ever! None of the workers are trained in how to deal with this type of sickness, and the “classes” they are all taking is just teaching about how to recognize it. So, my hope is that people will skip going to the ministry with things like this, until after they have been to their local law-enforcement office (and tell them that the FBI is working on a massive scale of cases within this fellowship), and now that the FBI is involved, it would be of most help to let them know too – prior to letting the workers know anything.
Then, afterwards, let everyone in your field know – at the same time you let your Elder know, and then your local workers, and then the overseer. No more secrets. If people don’t want to be drug before the church and tossed out, best to allow God to start working in your hearts and lives BEFORE you do something harmful. If you are struggling with addiction of this type – go away and get help, BEFORE you act on it.
I see a mixed blessing in the FBI becoming involved in the CSA/SA cases that have occurred. As I understand the FBIs position, they will view any fund set up for the victims as a slush fund where people are trying to silence the victims. Also any investigation by others of an allegation will be viewed as an interference to their investigation. So the good news is all allegations must be reported to the FBI with no investigation to the validity of the allegation. The bad news is what to do with the allegation until the FBI has completed their investigation and issued a report? Are we talking months or years before actions can be taken or do we simply act on every allegation? And what do we do with those allegations the authorities say there isn’t enough evidence to determine or bring charges? Lots of other questions now come to mind.
Take ALL allegations to the local authorities where the crime took place.
DO NOT TAKE IT TO THE WORKERS OR A “ SAFETY TEAM”!! Crimes of this nature need immediate attention. No matter who, when, or where it has happened.
Judi Hull (509) 607-0320
If there’s “not enough evidence “ that doesn’t mean there’s no evidence. It might be a weak prosecutor that’s worried that he/she might ding their ‘winning streak’ should the jury not be completely persuaded.
So, the Elders need to stand up and say, “not in our meeting “. If the workers allow them at Gospel Meetings and you don’t feel comfortable, stay away. No one goes to heaven because they attend a meeting of any kind. The only entrance to heaven is by having a living relationship with God, by working out our own salvation in fear and trembling. Just choose fellowship with those who appreciate safety, because as a parent, that’s your responsibility.
Judi Hull (509) 607-0320
What to do, whether the FBI or any local investigator is involved:
Remove them from meeting.
We answer to a higher authority, but we must obey the laws of the land. We must stop coddling criminals and criminal behavior.
@ Rosita – You are exactly correct! I wish everyone was as wise as you!!
@Amen, your posts seem to have a general theme of trying to return us to the shadows and darkness, rather than moving ahead into the light and toward efforts to bring some earthly justice and healing to these terrible experiences.
A layperson’s “understand[ing of] the FBIs position” as you describe it has little credibility or validity. We know that our justice system isn’t perfect, but the only explanation I can think of for someone seeking to cast doubt on this investigative process, is that there is something(s) that person wants to keep hidden.
My fervent hope is that your “questions” don’t inhibit anyone from reporting (to the FBI, to their local police, and to others, as Henoffour and others have helpfully outlined on this site). If there are genuine questions about the processes, you could take them up with the AFTT team and/or with police investigators in your area in order to get reliable answers.
@Observer sorry my tone was wrong to you. I did state that the good news was that these cases would be reported to the FBI, so where you get I want to not have victims report is questionable. I would love the day when all cases were immediately reported and taken care of but as many have well stated it’s not going to happen in the vast number of cases.thus no matter our good desires, we will never be able to stop this horrible crime in its place, no matter where it occurs in a victims life. My understanding is that most victims want their perpetrator brought to justice not for their healing but to make sure others are not victimized. unfortunately for most cases the time line for stopping them is way late. I am not blaming anyone for this just stating a fact.
I might add that you are free to doubt my understanding of the FBIs position, but I can assure you that your assumption of my motive is a false accusation.
@Amen – Please, don’t cast down on how long ago these cases took place. We need EVERY case no matter if it was in the early 1900’s or yesterday to report to the FBI – you don’t know why they are asking for that information! Stop asking questions that cause people to “self filter” (in other words, causing them to feel like their case probably doesn’t matter) EVERY case matters!!
Also, if people don’t want to report to the FBI or the police, but still need help…Advocates For The Truth will provide help, and they MUST keep things confidential. If you call, it will be like speaking to a friend you’ve had for 20+ years…they are wonderful ladies, providing a wonderful service, out of love and care for every one in need of help. If someone doesn’t feel like they can handle calling, but wants to report to the FBI, call Cynthia at AFTT and she can get the information from you, and call them for you. Just whatever anyone needs.
@Observer – Thank you! You are appreciated.