My name is Daniel Zal. I live in the upstate NY area, 62 years old, professing all my life. My wife and I have recently decided to separate ourselves from the fellowship. The following will explain why we have made this decision.
“Some events cannot be rationalized – they are either real or imagined, either right or wrong – and any meaningful reconciliation needs to start from a place of accountability and truth”.
anonymous
Over the last months I have spent many hours thinking, reflecting and processing the new reality I am living in. I may have finally gotten to a place where I am able to articulate, in a sensible manner, what I now think and feel.
I have been thinking a lot about what Jesus taught regarding “how to inherit eternal life”. Three of the gospels recount a time when Jesus was asked this question.
His response(s):
Matt19 he said “keep the commandments….., and come follow me”
Mark,10:17 “Thou knowest the commandments…., take up thy cross and follow me”
Luke 10:25 “Thou shalt love the lord with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. This do and thou shalt live”
Luke, 18:18 “Thou knowest the commandments…come and follow me”
(One of the men, referred to in each of the three gospels, was also asked to sell all. But, let’s assume this was a requirement for this specific individual and not a requirement for everyone.)
We might consider loving God and our neighbor as pretty straight forward. I will come back to this topic in a bit. For now, let’s just consider more deeply what exactly it means to follow Jesus. I will repeat a story I shared during the Altamont ’22 convention. Excuse the repetition if you’ve already heard it.
My wife and I had been dining out with 2 friends. One, an observant 70ish y/o Jewish man. The other was a 60ish y/o woman with no connection, or desire for one, to any organized religion. In the course of conversation my Jewish friend began expressing his admiration for Noah because “he walked with God”. Such a remarkable testimony. My non-religious friend responded after a brief pause by asking, “What do you think it means to walk with God”. My Jewish friend took a breath, leaned forward, and appeared eager to respond. But then paused, and had to admit he did not have an answer. And I realized I didn’t either. You might reasonably expect that after sitting in meetings and reading and reflecting on the scripture for some 60 years I would have had a good answer, or at least some answer.
I have spent considerable time since then reflecting on what it does mean to walk with God. It has been a rewarding exercise, even though it comes late in life. I feel like anyone who professes to follow Jesus should be able to articulate in 50 words or less at least the essence what it means. And I would suggest that if a person isn’t able to articulate an answer, that they really don’t know. From what I’ve read, heard and observed over the last months it seems increasingly apparent that too many people in the ministry/fellowship have been walking along without any clear guidelines for what it means to really follow Jesus.
Although, I’m a bit reluctant to “cast my pearls before swine,” as it were, I would suggest that one of the core principles involves a relationship with the truth.
From my earliest memory I have heard this “Way” referred to as the “Truth”. We talk about walking in Truth. The Truth was clearly important to Jesus. He said; “I am the Truth”, “Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free”, “For this cause came I into the world and to this end was I born, to bear witness unto the Truth.” We recently studied the Gospel of John. In that Gospel Jesus mentions the Truth 22 times. I think about God as representing (among other things) all that is Most True. If Jesus is the Truth and we are feeding on the “Lamb,” (as we often hear we should be) we should also be interested in searching out what is true and being willing to acknowledge it and accept it, even when it is inconvenient or difficult.
I think when I have tried to convey this concept in the past it may not have really translated easily into a practical understanding of what I am trying to convey. So I will use an example that might help clarify what I mean.
When a young woman goes to an overseer and communicates to him that she and her best friend have discovered explicit evidence that her friend’s mother and another overseer are having an intimate sexual relationship, what would the response be of someone who is interested in what is actually true and being willing to acknowledge it in spite of the complications it would precipitate? I can say with certainty that the response would not be “don’t spread false rumors”. It would also not be “We have to keep this between us. We can’t say anything about this to others because it might cause them to be so discouraged that they might lose out and then their soul would be lost.” These are not the responses of a person who is following Jesus. Yet, these seem to have been the responses, or typical of the responses, to the majority of reported cases of abuse by the overwhelming majority of overseers and others in places of authority for many years.
Personally, I am very interested in what is true. And, given that truth is relative, I am even more interested in what is most true. I see as a central purpose of studying the scripture in general, and the Gospels in particular, is to discover what it reveals regarding God’s truth and then living in a way that aligns my life with what is most true.
So, let me give another example of how this plays out. When an overseer speaks at convention about forgiveness, and refers to relevant scripture (including Matt 18:15-17) that supports his position, he is communicating something that is true in a sense. But, when he intentionally leaves out the last half of Matt 18:17 that contradicts the essence of his sermon, this shows a troubling disregard for what is most true. It reveals either a marked ignorance of the subject or an intentional attempt to mislead, neither of which is very admirable. No judgement, but, from all outward appearances it appears this is a man who is not walking in truth, who is not following Jesus and who is occupying the place of an overseer. And what is also surprising is that hardly anyone seems to notice.
How many times have we heard 1Cor:11 referenced as the scriptural basis for the appropriate length of men’s and women’s hair. However, I have never heard the 16th verse included in any of these discussions. Paul concludes the matter by saying, “we have no such custom, neither do the churches of God”. What is most true here? It might be that the Corinthians had a certain custom that Paul was supportive of for the Corinthians in their own community. But it wasn’t really relevant in general. This seems to be more true. It’s worth a considering.
Next, I would like to explore a little more deeply the importance of loving your neighbor as thyself.
In Matt 23:36 when asked what the greatest commandment is, Jesus responded that to love God and to love thy neighbor as thyself are the 2 greatest. “On these two hang all the law and the prophets”
Luke, 10:25 “Thou shalt love the Lord with all thy heart, and all thy soul, all thy strength, all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.” (He was then asked about who should be considered a neighbor.)
So, if we believe the words Jesus spoke, I think it safe to say the primary requirements for salvation are to love the Lord, love your neighbor, and to follow him.
Let’s explore the dynamics of loving your neighbor through the parable of the good Samaritan. A “certain (Jewish) man” was accosted by thieves, stripped of his cloths, wounded and left half dead. By chance there passed by both a priest and a Levite. Now, one might assume because of their religious practice and familiarity with the law, they would be conscious of their responsibility to love their brother/neighbor (or at least act like they did). However, they both crossed to the opposite side of the street to avoid the man. Along comes a Samaritan who would ordinarily have no dealings with a Jew. Yet, in spite of whatever enmity might typically exist, he has it in his heart to stop, bind up his wounds, anoint him with oil, carry him to the nearest place of shelter and volunteer to pay for whatever care would be necessary for a full recovery.
This is a beautiful example of reaching out, even across religious and cultural divides, with a spirit of compassion and care that exemplifies what Jesus meant by “loving your neighbor as yourself”. Jesus said, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, by the love ye have one for another”. It is worth considering, just by the virtue of the Samaritan’s charitable disposition, that he might very likely be considered a disciple.
There is another portion of scripture which is very relevant to touch on. In Matt 25:31-46 we read of what will happen when Jesus returns, and all the holy angels with him. He shall sit on the throne of his glory. All nations will be gathered before him and he shall separate them as a shepherd shall separate his sheep from the goats. The only basis mentioned here for determining where a person ends up will be how they treated other people. And not just how but with what spirit they did so. The sheep will be those who, just as the good Samaritan did, had it in their hearts to reach out to those who were in need of help regardless of their ethnicity, social status or religious persuasion. They weren’t responding just because they thought it was the right thing to do, or because it would help them store up treasure in heaven. It was just a consequence of the compassion and love they felt for others.
In spite of what we may have been explicitly or implicitly taught, I have not found any scriptural basis that supports the belief that participating in a specific fellowship, attending certain type of meeting, wearing a certain type of dress or style of cloths or jewelry or length of hair or hairstyle is a criteria for salvation. None of these will have much, if any, relevance when Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. As Paul says in 1Cor:13 we could have many wonderful qualities, and do many admirable acts, but if we aren’t possessed and motivated by a spirit of charity it will all come to nothing.
We now know that for many years, probably since the time of William Irvine, there has been immoral behavior occurring in the fellowship and the ministry. Many brothers and sisters and workers have been the victims of abuse. This abuse has in many cases caused devastating trauma with life long consequences. We are also now aware that there has been a consistent pattern of behaviour by those leading the ministry and by others with influence, over this same long history, to do their best to keep this knowledge as contained as possible. The reputation of the perpetrators and the ministry has, in the vast majority of instances, always been given preeminence over the welfare of the victims.
Fredrich Nietzche once said, “Men betray themselves for the sake of their good name all the time”. A commentary on this quote – “When you lie to yourself you begin to corrupt the structure of your very being”.
This is bad enough. But now that all of this (corruption) has come to light and can no longer be kept quiet there still seems to be a reluctance to acknowledge it and respond in a way that is consistent with following Jesus. I went to convention this year hoping I would hear some overt acknowledgement of what has been occurring, sense a spirit of repentance and see some evidence of changes being made to at least improve safety. Instead, I heard things like we should just forgive everyone for everything, don’t feed on garbage or think too much about anything that might be distressing, bad things will happen but don’t dwell on it, question things in the right way with the right tone, etc.
I have read that in a few other parts of the country there may be some sincere efforts being made to consider these issues carefully and respond with integrity. But in the northeast there has been zero apparent effort made to make any changes or implement any meaningful guidelines in response to the debacle we find ourselves in. Relative to the victims of abuse, there has been no outreach by the ministry. There has been no anointing of oil, no overt expression of compassion, no balm for the wounded, no effort to take the injured to a place of healing and maybe even pay for their care. To me, it seems like the response of the majority of the friends and workers has been pretty much exactly like that of the priest and Levite. This is so antithetical to the teachings of Jesus that I can only shake my head in wonder. That this is the behavior being manifested by those who believe and imply they are being led by the spirit of God, again, I can only shake my head in wonder.
We have arrived at a time when things in this “way of truth” have gotten very complicated. Many have been a part of the fellowship for years, perhaps for all of their lives, and are reluctant to even consider a separation from it for any reason. It has become an integral part of their identity. They may not have any friends or social contacts other than within this community. For them, the prospect of extricating themselves from this community would likely be profoundly destabilizing and anxiety inducing. I totally understand that many will choose to continue with fellowship as usual and support the ministry as they have always done.
I can understand why Barry and Ray would choose to keep their heads down and choose to not make any major changes. Doing nothing is easy and will likely cause the greatest number of people the least amount of distress. In a storm it would not be smart to start rocking the boat. The storm will eventually blow over and business will resume as usual with everybody who has managed to stay in the boat. But doing what is easy and smart in a practical sense is not the same as following Jesus. Especially if Jesus isn’t even in the boat. And, from my perspective, this is looking more and more likely as time passes.
Having fellowship and attending meetings are great, to the extent that they help cultivate a loving relationship with God and our neighbors and help “guide one into all truth”. And, for those continuing in fellowship meetings, I sincerely hope that will be the case.
So, to the best of my ability I have articulated my thoughts. I will also express how I feel. Thoughts and feelings are intimately connected but they have distinct origins, one from the head, the other from the heart.
The best way to convey how I feel is with a story. Think of it as a parable, but one based in actual fact
A couple in their 50s are in a crisis. For 30+ years they have seemingly enjoyed a wonderful, intimate, fulfilling marriage. They have been mutually supportive. Both have successful careers. They have 2 adult children. Everything seems pretty perfect. Except the wife eventually finds out that during the entire time they’ve been married, since the honeymoon, her husband has been serially unfaithful, literally hundreds of times. (The husband was a victim of repeated sexual and physical abuse as a child.) Now, against the advice of all her friends, and both her children, the wife decides she is willing to work on trying to save the marriage. Not the response you would expect. She does this because for over 30 years she had lived in a reality that was relatively wonderful and fulfilling. What allows for even the possibility of saving the relationship is the husbands willingness to acknowledge his errors, to take responsibility for them, to repent in a way that is painfully sincere, and to make the necessary changes in his own life. A difficult process with a undetermined outcome.
You can hopefully see the parallels. I spent many years living in a reality where I believed certain things to be true, and that was wonderful. I have no regrets. My children, who at one time all professed and now don’t, all regard the religious aspect of their upbringing as a good thing. I have never heard them express regret or resentment about this part of their lives. It has given us all a foundation on which to build a spiritual practice. But now I have found that some of the most fundamental things I once believed to be true are actually false. I feel betrayed in the same way, but with admittedly maybe not quite the same degree of devastation, as the wife did when she realized the magnitude of her husbands betrayal.
There was a time, early on, when if there had been some acknowledgement of what had gone wrong, some indication of repentance, a willingness to make appropriate changes and do some difficult work there might have been a possibility of saving the relationship. But that has not been the case. And It feels like the relationship is at an end.
Discover more from WINGS for Truth
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
WINGS for Truth 
Thank you for sharing your well articulated thoughts. With eyes wide open, we cannot unsee what has been uncovered by God.
So Dan. Where do you go? We hate do you do? I guess your better than the rest of us as you always have thought at least.
Could you rephrase what you are saying to the writer. Seems like you know him?
Beholder, YUCK! Who do you serve? Where is the love of God, or any hint of understanding in your response?
Daniel, thank you for your letter, you voiced so eloquently experiences of my own. While Lyle has done more than most and does listen to people in Texas and New Mexico about the SA/CSA issues, that doesn’t change the facts that so many of my core beliefs are based on half truths and lies. My faith is stronger than ever, love for those still attending has not diminished, but I am thankful God has shown me His word and how I can live in His will not being apart of that fellowship.
Beverly:
Your voice, added to Daniel’s is of great significance.
Beholder, asks the question?; where do you go?
As was our experience ; when we left: ours acquaintance WHO were Not 2×2’s were very eager to enfold and nurture us. Yes, those ‘unsaved heathen’ we lived amongst all our self-righteous lives! We were very “gun shy”: of anything and felt completely betrayed by ‘religion’. We knew all their religion’s beginnings were by Man because they Proudly proclaimed.
Our desperation, sent us to read, study, seek what is really written in God’s WORD. We found that we had been guilty of: “DO NOT confuse me with facts! BUT the Reality of God’s word is healing. God’s Word does NOT End with Jesus’ fleshly ministry to Israel! Romans 11: explains.
Daniel is able to do an excellent study of Jesus’ ministry and zeroing in on important teachings. His gut-punch of the failure of the 2×2 ministers in Doctrine and in life IS religious “Abuse”. We know the affects!
What Daniel does NOT explain is: Jesus ministry in His Flesh was and is to That Nation of Israel to bring them BACK unto Himself. They killed Jesus.
The Gospel Jesus preached was Matthew 4:17 and :23.
Gospel = Good News = Israel’s promised, Covenanted “perfect Kingdom of Heaven on “Earth” IS A HAND! Your King is Here! They would NOT!
Who were this Nation of Jews? God’s Chosen Nation to be a Nation of “priest’s”! Exodus 19:5, :6.
Why? O.T. prophetic: Isaiah 11:10, 42:6, 60:2,:3, 62:2; Zechariah 8:20-:23
and N.T. Luke 1:79, 2:32. purpose is to bring ALL Nations to God.
Then Revelation 21:24, 22:1:1 – :2 prophecy assures and shows Israel will
ONE Day(during their Tribulation) be willing to do God’s will.
God’s Word does NOT “end with Jesus’ Ministry”. Thankfully, after reading The WAY does NOT even follow Jesus’ ministry or Jesus Doctrine; we were able to understand enough of Acts 1: – :7 that the 2×2’s are NOT able to follow Jesus’ 12 apostles’ for Israel; Doctrine either! ‘either’!
What is left of God’s Word in our Bible? if Jesus “fleshly” ministry is not for us and is NOT our Gospel???
Acts 13: thru Philemon. What a treasure!
This is God’s Word explaining and “”teaching us what God in his “long-suffering” (2 Peter 3:15 -:16); planned;;;
Yes, before the beginning of the World(Ephesians 3:9) hath been hid in God
while Israel “IS BLINDED(Romans 11:7 – :11) “. = Their Gospel is withdrawn!
So, Daniel; you are an excellent “Student”: very knowledgable; and a deep heart and soul for honesty and truly being Christ-like.
You can Not settle for a half-truth. Yoube!
Lift-up your head and heart! You have just begun!
You have faced the ‘devil’ and found him wanting. Very tramatic!
NOW, you will be very careful as you read and study to NOT BE ‘deceived’ again. Altho that is a brutal lesson, it will serve you well.
You NOW know how to actually read what is written- versus -what someone says. That is very valuable to you, Now, as you continue to learn and study what God has planned since the ‘beginning of the world’ for such a time as this. (Israel rejected God, rejected Jesus, rejected Holy Spirit) =. God has turned from them; BUT has NOT given-them up!
(Blinded them for a season)Romans 11:7-:11;
Rom 11:25-:27 explains God again to them
Romans 3: 21 uses the expression BUT NOW! explains Acts 9:1-:9 & :10-:16
THAT explains :20 by the deeds of the LAW(by man’s works) “Shall NO
Flesh” be justified!!!
“But Now” the Righteousness of God with out the Law is manifested!!!!!
YES, you must read :21 – :27.
:22 Righteousness of God “by faith of Jesus Christ
:24 Justified ‘freely’ by God’s grace = (Ephesians 3:1-:9)
:25 Thro faith in His ‘blood'(Hebrews 9:22(b) without blood no remission
:26 To declare Christ’s “righteousness: that God might be “just” and
AND the “justifier” of him(you and I) THAT “Believeth in Jesus!!
Result is :28!
This explains Acts 9: God’s conversion of Paul:::, exactly what God( :5 I am Jesus) had for Saul to do :15
Daniel, you have put the present crisis in proper perspective.
I am appalled at the lack of response by friends workers, and overseers.
Friends are blindly following workers, who are following overseers, much of the corruption seems to come from top leadership.
Sadly it is plain to see that the Holy Spirit of God is not leading.
The scripture you have quoted has been uppermost in my mind for months. It’s as though those words were never written, as most people seem oblivious to them.
The unbelievable response has put some of us in the position that you describe.
Quote “If there had been some acknowledgement of what had gone wrong, some indication of repentance, a willingness to make appropriate changes and do some difficult work there might have been a possibility of saving the relationship. But that has not been the case. And It feels like the relationship is at an end.”
There are other issues that also need to be addressed that have burdened our hearts for years, things that we laid aside ………….
Presently, for many of us there doesn’t seem to be any other option, but to leave what we have loved so much, to FOLLOW JESUS, and be in favour with our GOD.
My heart will not allow me to support all this corruption,………
I have stayed hoping I could influence some small change, over time ……….
Hoping that God would open the eyes of more ………
Hoping others would have courage to stand for Truth and Righteousness…….
Hoping for more love and compassion………..
Hoping, hoping, hoping…..
“My Hope and confidence today are deeply rooted in the Lord,
He’ll guide us safely all the way, and Bless according to His word “. Hymn 347
Our hymns are so precious to me… ……
Our friends are so precious to me…….
Souls who are sighing, downhearted, downtrodden are precious to me……..
We are not falling away, we are falling on the ROCK
Dan, thank you for sharing. I jumped off the sinking ship in June feeling devasted and betrayed. But Jesus has carried me beyond the turbulence into calmer waters. I know He will be with me until I reach the shore.
So thankful He will never let us down. There will always be rough times. But He is with us through them so that we can stand firm until the end.
Some other good responses to someone who no longer accepts all tenets of your religion are “We thought we knew you better, we are so disappointed, you have always been just a critic, you think you know better than everybody else and you have never had a real revelation.” They sound even better when you string a few together.
Thank you for your heartfelt presentation of what has led you to your decision. I believe you have made the God directed choice. I have been thinking along the line of what God sees as He has observed the friends group for the 125 years of its existence. I believe he sees members that are very precious to Him, but also very troubling because they have not followed His simple, fool proof directions, on how to separate from the horrid corruption in this group. I feel God has likely orchestrated the Dean Brewer debacle as a wake up call to the church. Now He continues to watch and find His own, those that wake up and separate from such corruption and evil. Remember the words of Jesus when He said He was against two of the seven churches because they allowed fornicators among them. The members of the group should make a choice, and I believe the choice you have made is what God has directed and required.
The next step, in my opinion, is to find others that have made the same choice, and continue in fellowship with them. There are some wonderful accounts of some of the friends and churches separating from the corrupted overseers, and simply continuing to worship and fellowship together. They tell of the joy they are experiencing as they work to seek God and lay aside the false doctrine and commandments of an evil and corrupted ministry. They are rejoicing in their separation as they draw close to God by simply learning to practice as the first century church was taught to practice by God’s 13th apostle to the Gentiles. I believe God is rejoicing that many are stirring out of their long sleep, and opening their eyes to see our Savior and His truth.
Out of great tribulation, wonderful clarity and helpfulness, Dale
Hi Daniel,
Your post is so well written and expresses the truth about what is happening. It is indeed very sad, especially that so many do not realize the magnitude of not standing up on the right side.
I enjoyed being part of the meeting and accepted certain things. However, I saw that the overseers weren’t being guided by the spirit of God in their attitude to problems. For me, meetings were about God and only God. Some bits were like icing on a cake but make no mistake God is my cake. Therefore, I left and now enjoy peaceful fellowship with my family and talking to others about the things of God, which is also fellowship.
Daniel, you said:
“But doing what is easy and smart in a practical sense is not the same as following Jesus. Especially if Jesus isn’t even in the boat. And, from my perspective, this is looking more and more likely as time passes.”
In the book of Revelation Jesus was outside of the church at Laodicea. They were neither cold nor hot. The type of church that the Lord said he would spit out of his mouth. Have you ever had a cold cup of tea, that was once hot and turned cold? Well, you would want to spit it out as well; it is awful, not palatable.
Christ was outside of the church at Laodicea. it was a false church. Fancy calling yourself a church and a Christian when the whole reason for your gathering is absent. Having a wedding without a groom!
Revelation 3:20 (KJV) church at Laodicea.
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Daniel, you said:
“We have arrived at a time when things in this “way of truth” have gotten very complicated. Many have been a part of the fellowship for years, perhaps for all of their lives, and are reluctant to even consider a separation from it for any reason. It has become an integral part of their identity. They may not have any friends or social contacts other than within this community. For them, the prospect of extricating themselves from this community would likely be profoundly destabilizing and anxiety inducing. I totally understand that many will choose to continue with fellowship as usual and support the ministry as they have always done.”
The Church in Sardis
They had a name that they were alive but were dead. It is like calling yourself “the truth” but being known for lies. Oxymoron at best!
Message to the Church in Sardis Revelation 3:1-4
1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
It is like the ministry was dead but some had a bit of life in them still and some were clean.
3. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
When you are among the dead, there is nothing to feed on because all the life is gone. Therefore, if you have life remaining, to get strength you need to be among a source of food for sustenance unless you will soon die yourself. It says to strengthen the things which remain, how can you find strength among the dead?
4. “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.” They were those who were clean. Do you mix dead with living and expect a healthy outcome?
Just a thought about how the Lord saw the dead back in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 44:25-27
25. “They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves.
26. After he is cleansed, they shall count seven days for him.
27. And on the day that he goes to the sanctuary to minister in the sanctuary, he must offer his sin offering in the inner court,” says the Lord God.
It just makes you wonder if the people in Sardis who were clean were supposed to stay in a church among the dead or if they were to be separated.
Numbers 19:11
Purification of the Unclean
11. He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.
12. He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.
13. Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
Nicky
Wonderful letter. Thank you.
Once you see it all, there’s no unseeing it.
This is just an excellent, honest letter! Thank you for being open with your experiences and thoughts. ✅
Daniel, thank you for your letter. It is very real to me. I have been where you are. It was about 10 years ago now. Today I am in a complete and uncomplicated relationship with my Lord, Jesus.
You are absolutely right saying, “Many have been a part of the fellowship for years, perhaps for all of their lives, and are reluctant to even consider a separation from it for any reason. It has become an integral part of their identity. They may not have any friends or social contacts other than within this community. For them, the prospect of extricating themselves from this community would likely be profoundly destabilizing and anxiety inducing. I totally understand that many will choose to continue with fellowship as usual and support the ministry as they have always done. I can understand why Barry and Ray would choose to keep their heads down and choose to not make any major changes. Doing nothing is easy…”.
When we left, the friends we thought we had, treated as if we had leprosy. The community of “friends” are friends with conditions. If you’re not going to follow the set conditions, you will not be a friend any longer. Are these people really friends in the first place? Absolutely not. Doing nothing, not changing anything, is easy. Same with losing 10 pounds, or changing from a diet that is killing you. Doing nothing about it is easy. Going with the status quo is easy.
BEHOLDER says, “I guess your better than the rest of us”. That totally exemplifies a ” friend “, a professing person. Same as a person that could very well lose weight says to a friend that starts going to the gym to get in shape, “I guess your better than the rest of us”. Doing nothing, walking around a person in need, serving your own interest only is easy.
Daniel Zal, you have put your self out there. You care and have been clear about that, and that is not easy. You have bucked the system. That is not easy. The strength you have shown, the honesty you have, and your intent to ” walk with God” and truly love your neighbor, you will have joy, peace and rest. That will come to you easy.
“I can understand why Barry and Ray would choose to keep their heads down and choose to not make any major changes. Doing nothing is easy and will likely cause the greatest number of people the least amount of distress. In a storm it would not be smart to start rocking the boat. The storm will eventually blow over and business will resume as usual with everybody who has managed to stay in the boat. But doing what is easy and smart in a practical sense is not the same as following Jesus. Especially if Jesus isn’t even in the boat”.
Dan, thanks for what you shared. I agree with all you brought out. I do have a question for all. We have lived where we are for 10 years and attended Gospel Meetings and our local convention every year. My question is for me. How many what we say are “outsiders” have made their choice, as we call it? Not one here in the 10 years being here. Only children at conventions and meetings. There is nothing wrong with that, but why are not the “workers” seeking the lost as the Bible says. When I was a child growing up in the “truth” we knocked on doors to invite people to the meetings. There is so much now that could be used to get the word out. We get flyers on our porch all the time about this church and that church saying, “come and join us”. The internet could be used. Oh, I know what the answer would be to that. Blah, blah. Dan, you mentioned John using the word truth many times in his Gospel. Also many times in his three letters he refers to the Truth. I am thankful for my Sunday morning meeting as it is now. Jesus is the TRUTH, PERIOD.
Workers where we are for many years have laid responsibility on to the locals to bring ‘strangers’ (hate that word) to Gospel Meetings. They’re not interested (or frankly capable) in engaging with the community. Widespread mood anyway is, would you want to, particularly now?
PD I understand exactly how you feel. I do know workers that reach out to all people, and I know workers that really don’t reach out to anyone – including those in our fellowship. I spent many Saturdays passing out invitations, and because my mother read with us every day, I could even answer questions when those who came to the door would ask. Not with my opinion, but actual scripture not taken out of context. Now I realize how fortunate I was to have a mother that loved us so deeply. Jesus IS the Truth, and all we’ll ever need.
The last 2 in our field to profess are 50ish woman this summer and a 70ish man this past Sunday. 🙂
Daniel, great job summing up your thoughts! “How many times have we heard 1Cor:11 referenced as the scriptural basis for the appropriate length of men’s and women’s hair. However, I have never heard the 16th verse included in any of these discussions. Paul concludes the matter by saying, “we have no such custom, neither do the churches of God””. The “truth” religion hijacked its name, the “workers” name (Matthew 9:38, “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest”), hair style and many other topics. It’s what is left out, not giving the full context, that makes it a lie. Something that the devil is very good at. Putting a little twist on what is real, good, and edifying and makes it a lie. From the sanctity of a marriage union and the blessed offspring of that, twisted and you get extremely dangerous and damaging pornography. Take a few verses from the Bible, the Word of God, about an extremely small, insignificant issue about hair length and its twisted into a mainstay for a religion. Jesus was able to simply disappear into crowds of people in His day (Luke 4:30, “But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way”). Could ANY good professing women disappear in a crowd? No. Instead, it’s like where is Waldo? Where’s the one wearing their religion? It’s twisted. Twisting the Word of God. Not completely showing the whole picture. Leaving out the main point. Freedom comes from not being shackled to falsehoods, lies and twisted truths. Ephesians 3:12, ” In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence”. It’s, In him and through faith in Him. It’s not through the twisted truth of a certain hair style. Daniel, you wrote, “How many times have we heard 1Cor:11 referenced as the scriptural basis for the appropriate length of men’s and women’s hair?”
That 16th verse you refer to in the NLT reads, “But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other custom than this, and neither do God’s other churches.”. So Paul admits it’s a custom, not doctrine.
“That 16th verse you refer to in the NLT reads, “But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other custom than this, and neither do God’s other churches.”. So Paul admits it’s a custom, not doctrine”.
Has ANYONE told the ” workers” this?! Has ANYONE been baptized that has refused the custom?! Is ANY woman considered worthy that has refused the custom?!… Of course, the answer is, no. In “the way” (made by William Irvine), custom, not doctrine rule. Period.
Perhaps the NET has it more clear “16 If anyone intends to quarrel about this, we have no other practice, nor do the churches of God.” I guess those that don’t like this practice or custom can take comfort that there were those in Paul’s day that didn’t like it either.
Amen: Remember This was the “church – the Body of Christ Ephesians 1:22 – :23 which is Ephesians 3:1-:9 and Ephesians 1:12-:13.
Paul is answering a Question the members of THAT church had written – -1 Cor. 7:1 – It was NOT an Issue with or of Paul.
All Paul was asking them: was to “just follow” Paul AS: – “I (Paul) also “of Christ”.( Galatians 1:1 – :17). The Risen Christ!
NOT Jesus in his flesh( 2 Cor.5:14 – :16) as he walked the dusty roads of Israel. No, we are to follow Paul as he IS OF the Risen Christ. NOT to follow Jesus as he ministered and preached to that Nation of Israel the Good News(Gospel) THAT Israel’s Promised Nation of Israel’s “Kingdom of Heaven on Earth” is at HAND.
And as Jesus also SENT HIS 12 chosen Apostles to Nation of Israel.
It was no issue with or of Paul. ANY who have contentious: – WE have NO such customs!
EXACTLY the same with your contentious with the Lord’s supper; we have NO SUCH CUSTOMS! 1 Cor. 11:22
1 Cor. 11:30 For this “cause” (:18 -:30) of your customs “MANY ARE WEAK and SICKLY among you!!!
IT was a “custom” they HAD DREAMED-UP! 1 Corinthians 11:16.
It was not of Paul or of God!
(xxxxxx moderated redaction)- once again I can hardly follow what you are trying to say. But when you get to the point of saying you want to follow Paul and not Jesus, you completely lose me. I will follow Paul as he follows Jesus, but in essence I will follow Jesus just like he asked me to do.
@Amen I appreciate reading your clarifications. What I think many don’t understand, is as the Spirit of God moves God’s people to choose or abstain from certain things, these folks are saying we are forced by the ministry to be doing or not doing this or that. The Spirit of God will always bring the same fruit out in God’s people, because the teaching from within will be the same. However, when the Spirit is limited, by hardness in the heart, you will see variances. Not because God wants that, but it’s just what human nature brings out. I have many religious friends outside of this fellowship, and they are mostly good, loving, and kind people, but I can not say that I have ever witnessed in any of them the true Grace of God like I have in some within this fellowship. People often think that if they are good and kind and loving, then God will accept them, but it’s God’s righteousness that has been allowed to be worked within a person that will allow God’s acceptance, not our efforts. I’m so glad I learned to be responsive to His voice and touch on my heart. I remember the first time I ever recognized God moving someone. Our family had arrived at Gospel Meeting, and before the car was even put into park one of our sons jumped out of the car and ran like his life depended on it into the building. We assumed he was running for the bathroom.
We found out later that he had wanted to beat us into the building so he could ask the workers to test the meeting! Anyways, there were two ladies in that Meeting that were involved. One, who was a young mother, had prayed before the meeting that God would move the workers to test the meeting, and IF anyone else stood to their feet, she would too. Well, neither of them knew our son had asked, nor that he was sitting behind her, so she couldn’t see him. The worker’s tested the meeting, and low and behold…a frail women in her 80’s with hair white as snow, who had been serving God faithfully for decades stood to her feet, and she was wearing a white sweater and a white skirt. The young mother only saw an angel standing there, and came to her feet right in front of our son. The young mother came to our house the following day (we had been friends for a few years), and she said, “Did you see that angel last night, or was it just me?” When I spoke to the older lady she said, “I don’t know how I got to my feet, but God had in an audible voice asked me to stand, and I always want to be sensetive to his voice and do ask He asks”. Normally she had needed assistance to stand from her chair. She changed me, because I have had the same feeling, and sat glued to my chair, because the thought came, “that can’t be right, because I professed already”. I realized then that I was refusing to be useful.
Daniel thank you for your thoughts on what it means to walk with God. I kept reading with high expectations but was a little surprised by so much of your thoughts being on what others have done that is wrong and shows they are not walking with God. I couldn’t agree more that we need to keep the first two commandments and walk with God in love. As Paul said the end of the commandment is love… To me my walking with God has nothing to do with what others are or are not doing. We all rejoice and feel blessed when we find those of like precious faith that we can have true fellowship with as we walk with God. But God has not always planed that it would be so. Jesus and everyone of His disciples were often surrounded by those not following God. Jesus so often warned us, every epistle of Paul, Peter James tells about false breathren. John tells us of an elder that would not allow him in his home. No our walk with God isn’t based on others doing the right things, it is totally based on our own relationship with God.
I still remember when I was a young man first hearing the gospel. One of the workers was my same age and I was often amazed at what he came up with at those meetings. And then he spoke about coming to the place where two ways met and he described it as your way and Gods way and I didn’t hear it as coming from his mouth, it was God speaking directly to me. I decided then and there I wanted to follow that voice speaking to my own heart. Yes I have been saddened with the choices and actions of others, but I have never been disappointed in following Gods voice to my own heart.
@ Amen
My thoughts are that God’s way is the hope that he holds out to us through Jesus his son. John 1 v16 says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him will not perish but will have everlasting life.’
Jesus himself said, “I come that you might have life and have it more abundantly”
So if God’s way is through Jesus his Son, then what could be more appropriate than examining yourself first, then everything and everyone that proclaims to follow HIM, by his walk and words and actions. How else are you going to “examine the spirits”?
The thing about moving amongst the dead is, the smell and life threating bacteria eventually rubs off and does its work.
It’s very interesting to me to see people’s views from coast to coast. Because I have lived on both coasts, I completely agree that SOME do follow the workers (but not Jesus). SOME follow Jesus while respecting the workers who gave all to do as God called them to do, but have no problem pointing things out that aren’t right. SOME have NO respect for the ministry and at all, not realizing that not all of the ministry believes as those in High Places do. SOME respect some of the ministry, and are letting it be known that those who agree with predators are NOT welcome in their homes, and are definitely following Jesus. SOME are claiming to be following Paul, and claim HE’s the only way to follow Jesus teachings. SOME are extremely hateful towards Paul and you dare not mention his name in “THEIR” meeting.
I grew up with my mother bringing us to meeting (Dad was professing off and on – never really believed in his prayers being heard, because he was expecting certain outcomes…but, God did answer his prayers, just not what he was hoping for. Although, after being “out” (not caring about God or Jesus) for 44 years, he saw a miracle and he was back in meetings and God gave him two more years and he kept faithful, and even made peace with my mother, who he had divorced, because she wouldn’t leave the fellowship when he did). Mom has stayed faithful to God and her vows throughout the decades.
Neither of my parents nor any of my 8 = 4 grand/4 greatgrand parents nor any of my Great Aunts/Uncles or Aunts/Uncles were ones to worship the workers. When they came into any home within our families they were treated as part of the family, but if they stepped out of line…they weren’t for long. So, that’s how me and my siblings grew up. I also do the same.
My husband grew up in North Carolina, and things were not the same…so, when we lived back there, I believe I was on some kind of list…but, because I knew most of the workers out west (from living in their states, and/or them passing through and staying in our home), and they would ask to come stay with us as they visited NC, it didn’t go unnoticed, and there was an agenda to try to corrupt me. They were frequently sent “workers” or “those who were well respected” (but, not ones I had any respect for) to straighten me out. I grew up believeing what Jesus taught, not what some worker’s opinion was about something, so to me, if it’s not addressed by Jesus then I don’t follow.
However, the Bible DOES address how a woman should adorn herself:
1 Timothy 2:9-10 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Doesn’t say they can’t wear pants, or can’t ride horses or ? Just be modest, and let your adorning be from within.
People DO need to get back to following Jesus. I believe (Paul took the same Gospel to the Gentiles as he did to us Jewish people. I don’t think I’m any more of a favorite to God than those not born Jews). There are many referrences throughout the Bible about God not being a respector of persons.
What does it mean, to “Walk with God”, to me it means being in step with Him and His Son, and we can only do that if we do as is written in the scripture.
What do we do about how wrong the ministry is, get together with as many people as you can (if you need to write a letter to reach the masses, then do it), and discuss what is taking place and I’m sure you will find that most are not happy just going along as has been, but they don’t know how anyone else feels, because no one is gathering to discuss. Don’t run, or walk away, help your bretheren! Then, if you can get the Elders to take a stand, do it! If the Elders can reach their church to get on board, and everyone is in agreement…you can tell Ray and Barry to take a hike, and let the Elders handle it all. What I’m frequently seeing is people aren’t desperate enough to beg for God’s help!
Truly God is angry with us after us not being awake to all this non-sense and crime for all these years. We are a trusting group, and it’s made us an easy target for predators.
Also, be pro-active! Call your local/state law-enforcement, and ask them the laws regarding clergy (Elders are considered party of the Clergy) and reporting crimes. But, also…if an Elder allows a Sexual Offender of any kind into their home during a meeting, and they have not informed EVERY person who attends that they will be harboring one, they can be sued and life as they know it will end. They WILL go to prison for KNOWINGLY putting children/women at risk…and the cool part is, because the “Overseer” told them to accept the predator into their meeting, they can be sued too and they will join the Elder in prison! Then, you are rid of the overseers who are lazy and not wanting to be following scripture.
Our state has stood strong against any of them coming to anything where children are in attendance…and it’s holding. But, there are a few people, who are not reading their Bibles who think we “aren’t being forgiving”. I have not problem forgiving the sin, but the predators will prove they are truly sorry by turning themselves in, admiting to their crimes to ever child/adult they have harmed (there’s NEVER just one), and they would be choosing to not put themselves in places of temptation. We love their souls enough to not demand it either!
I know there are Elders also on the list of over 700 predators (they are actually the 2nd largest group – the ministry is the largest group), so, if an Elder (or someone in the ministry) doesn’t agree to stand against predators they are likely trying to hide their own transgressions.
What does God—OT, Moses—or Jesus—Gospels say about either women’s hair or dress. Nothing, I believe.
The first reference is listed in my above letter…it would do everyone well, to actually do some digging for themselves.
Also, I don’t follow the Old Testament, as Jesus was the fulfilment of those old laws. But, those old laws show God’s intentions for all man through the generations, so what Jesus said, is “I didn’t come to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfil”.(Matthew 5) and later in the chapter Jesus said, “But, I say unto you….” and He took each of those old commandments to a deeper level.
henoffour:
Thank you for another thoughtful letter. We appreciate your ability to express your thoughts and feelings.
You stated people DO Need to get back to following Jesus. AND next paragraph: being in step with God and his Son — AS written in scripture
Consider this ‘scripture’ written by Paul :
2 Corinthians 5: 14 – :17 This is information concerning Jew or Gentile.
specifically :16 Wherefore,–because of information in the prior verses. Henceforth: what time frame does that indicate? now and in the future…
WHAT has changed from the PAST to that — Now and in the Future ???
:16 Wherefore, Henceforth “Know we No man after the flesh!” Jew or Gentile! WHO is speaking??? Paul!!! BUT NOW a change from the “was”!
1. “WAS” ((Yes, Paul’s change from Jesus’ WORDS to 12 Apostles
Matthew 10:5 – :6 go only to the Lost sheep of House of Israel
Math. 15:24″ I am NOT sent BUT to the lost sheep of House of Israel”))
:16 (c) Ye, though we have KNOWN Christ AFTER the FLESH
YET, NOW, Henceforth, KNOW WE Him=Christ in the flesh NO MORE
((Yes, this IS written AS IN Scripture)) Yes, this was a shock to us;
and it took a while to comprehend what this scripture indicates.
One reference helped! Galatians 2:2 as Paul explains that Jerusalem
council (in Acts 15:12 declaring WHAT God had wrought ….amongst the
Gentiles”)…. :6 Those of the 12 and Elders : much disputing!!
WHY? You read those who followed Jesus in the flesh & the 12; said..
Acts 15: 1 EXCEPT ye BE Circumcisied after the manner of of Moses: YE CANNOT BE SAVED (( The Law of Moses given to that Nation of Israel
Acts 15:5 Yes, those Jews “who believed” the ‘Gospel of the Kingdom’ preached by the 12 ‘Apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 1: to Acts 7:)
:5 THAT it was needful to circumcise them and to keep the Law of Moses
2. “IS” Paul explains to his church (assemble) in Galatia, What happened in the Jerusalem Council: Acts 15:
Galatians 2:2 Paul went up by “revelation” guided by God?
:6 they (the 12 and the elders) added Nothing to me
:7 BUT counterwise, when they saw THAT Gospel of WHAT???
‘ the’ “”uncircumcision””! was committed UNTO ME(Paul);;;
AS the Gospel of ‘the’ “circumcision” was committed UNTO Peter…..
AND IT IS important that you read and understand verse :8
:9 To whom would the 12 Apostles ONLY preach to? “Circumcision”=Jews
:9 To whom would Paul, Barnabus and Titus??? Heathen= Gentile nations.
So per your thinking that you are NOT anymore of a favorite to God than those “not born Jews” IS Correct in Paul’s Gospel given to him by God.
BUT is NOT correct in the Gospel that Jesus in his “flesh” preached to that Nation of Israel; Mathew 10:5, :6 and 15:24 and called them dogs :26
As that is also the Gospel the “12” preached to that Nation of Israel in
Acts 1: through Acts 7:. re: Acts 2:5, :14, :36, :45, :46, – 5:
7: Israel’s COMPLETE History. :2 – :53
7: 51- 53 WHO were cut to the heart? That supreme Court of Israel?
So, Yes, henoffour: you are correct in Paul’s Gospel THAT you are not anymore of a favorite than those NOT born Jew.
Acts 9:10 -:15 As this what the Risen – Ascended Jesus=Christ GAVE to Paul to “PREACH”!
God explains to Ananias :16 “what Saul will do”!
Paul explains Ephesians 3:1-:9 what Gospel Jesus Christ gave to Him
:2 and :3, and :4 the “mystery of Christ”. for who: 3:1 the Gentiles
Yes: henoffour; if your reaction is like ours was: YOU WILL NOT Believe THIS. BUT after time and again; Paul refers to the “mystery” in God’s record of God’s Word THRU Paul; we had to try to understand. That has been a very rewarding journey.
AND we have become the object of: THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!
Colossians 1:9 that ye may be filled with knowledge of “his will” and…..
:13 in this sentence explains: Jesus – God’s dear Son –
HATH delivered us from the “power of darkness”
and HATH translated us into the ‘kingdom of His dear Son’:
:15- :18 Who Is God’s dear Son?
:25 – :26 – :27 What is the Gospel? “The Mystery”!
:27 to who? The Gentiles!
AND as you “believe”(Paul took the same Gospel to the Gentiles as he did to us Jewish people). AND THAT Gospel is the “Mystery” which is the same Gospel Paul calls the Dispensation of the Grace of God. Eph. 3:1-:9.
Paul shows “HOW” this Hope for the Gentiles in Ephesians 2:11 – :13.
Eph. 2:14 Hath(past tense) made ‘both’ ONE.
:15 to MAKE in himself “OF two–ONE NEW–MAN…..
RESULT :16 – :18 THE “mystery” is only Gospel, where BOTH are reconciled BOTH IN ONE BODY by the cross! Both have access through ONE Spirit “unto the Father.!!!
(this ONE New Man) is “Different” than a Gentile becoming part of God’s Chosen Nation as a “proselyte” like “Ruth” or “Rahab”; who came to and became JEWS.)
Now, do you begin to understand the Spiritual “Abuse” of any who are locked into the One Only Right Way.
AND do you “Now” understand just a little of What those who quote “What is written in the scripture BY Paul: IS “being in Step with God and His Son; NOW!
Astounded,
2 Corinthians 5: 14 – :17 is not talking about a new way. It’s speaking about Jesus dying on the cross, for all mankind, so our service is not just attending church, but allowing a work within. It’s not about a physical Jesus that is with His people, but rather Him within us. Has nothing to do with changing what He was teaching the Jews, like when He said, “come follow me” to the Jews in the Temple. He was asking them to leave that type of dead worship, and follow Him so they could have life, and have it more abundantly.
Matthew 10 – Jesus DID send them to “the lost sheep of Israel”, because it was one last attempt at getting them to understand that laws wouldn’t save them, only He could.
Luke 10 might help you better understand when Jesus sent the next group of seventy out to every city, because the Jews had counted themselves unworthy. He wasn’t judging them unworthy, but THEY did it to themselves and wouldn’t accept Him as their Saviour.
I’m sorry, I don’t have time to go through every one of these, but you’ve somehow mistaken the meaning of these. If I were in your shoes, I would spend time praying and begging for God’s help in understanding. I don’t understand where you get the idea that we are “Locked into the One Only Right Way”, like someone schnoockered me. If a worker or friend is preaching/sharing from the scriptures and I know they are off base, I will take them aside and help them. I appreciate they you feel you are trying to help me, but I don’t read the Bible until I ask for God’s help and understanding. Because I am allowing God to work within my heart, I don’t run when things get tough, and I don’t accept everything I hear, and I don’t feel like “we are the only ones” that God is dealing with. John 10 makes it very clear that Jesus is still seeking His sheep, and will draw them to Himself.
This is just one of many miracles I have been fortunate to be a part of:
I had left the fellowship, (was angry at God because something awful had happened to me and felt He should have protected me), attended numerous churches with my coworkers and friends I’d made in Anchorage. Felt lost, wondered if there even was a God. Then, I’m sitting at my desk quietly working away (under very stressful circumstances), and POW! Something internally ruptured with a bang. I fell out of my chair from the excruciating pain, couldn’t speak. The next thing I know I’m in a hospital, and my bloodcount is headed south like the Titanic, and no one can figure out where I am bleeding from, but it’s not being contained in my veins. They were prepping me for a blood transfusion (this was right after AIDS became a thing, but no blood banks were testing blood for it), so I told them to just let me die. I was 23 years old. I Signed all the paperwork to not let them move forward with their plans. I closed my eyes, and just layed there for a while in silence, reconning within myself that if I were to get any help, I had to be honest. Then, I just prayed that “IF you are there God, and you are real, please help me! Not only with this natural emergency, but with finding how to serve You”. They came in and started Morphine, and the lab came in drew some blood, and came back a couple hours later and drew some more…and they realized that all of a sudden I had stopped bleeding, so they started turning the morphine down. But, during this time, (I had no idea what was taking place with the medical team), I heard my name very audibly and God very quietly told me that He had “heard my prayer”. I woke up once the morphine was off, saw a lady sitting (she was knitting) in my room, I knew who she was, but hadn’t spoken to her in years. She just said to me, “You don’t have to speak to me, but I would like to be here when your mother arrives (I had no clue she even knew where I was, or that she was coming). I didn’t say anything to her for a couple hours, as I wasn’t sure what to think…coincidence? Or was this part of God’s answer? Mom arrived, and we three had a little chat, and the lady left. I decided to go to sleep. I hadn’t spoken to my mother in a long time either. The next morning was Sunday, so I was alone in my room (Mom had gone to meeting with my brother), and the doctor and nurse came in and we talked about what had happened…they were both still shocked at the quick turn of events, so I just mentioned that I had asked God for help, because I knew the medical team wasn’t making any progress. They both just walked out of the room. Mom came back after lunch, and she had shut the room door because it was super noisy in the ICU. About 1/2 hr after she came, there was a knock on the door, and I heard a nurse yell “You can’t go in there!” then a male voice (couldn’t hear what he said), then another knock and the nurse entered the room and said, there’s a man out here that seems a bit nuts, he doesn’t know who’s in this room, but he is saying he was directed by God to knock on this specific door, do you want me to shoo him away, or are you expecting someone? I said, open the door so I can see who it is, please. It was a brother worker who I had known from years before, and he had always been kind to me, and very respectful. There was no doubt left in my mind. There have been many experiences through the years, that I have seen God’s work very clearly, and no man could take credit for any of it. But, I have learned to appreciate trials to my faith, as I learn more about my lack, and God is so faithful to show us, and provide what’s necessary for us to become more like Jesus.
Henoffour- what a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing. It is wonderful that we each can have an experience that makes us so aware of God and His love toward us often in spite of ourselves. I often love to just sit and think about the experience of that blind man that was blind from his birth. Once Jesus came into his life and opened his eyes, there was nothing that could shake his conviction about what Jesus had done for him. The religious leaders, his neighbors, even his parents wanted him to deny what Jesus had done for him. He admitted he didn’t know how Jesus had done it but he knew, I was blind but now I see.
@henoffour…do appreciate your stance.. Wish a lot more could see it the way you do. Unfortunately in most other states and countries it is an uphill battle to get the majority onboard. Its gives so much more peace to step away from the mess and focus on Jesus. Still my heart aches for the little ones that are still left vulnerable by those not willing to see
henoffour;
Thank you for your reply. We appreciate your desire to help, others.
Thank you for explaining your brother was able to bring to you help.
I am saddened that you do NOT understand scripture as is written.
However; that is not unusual.
We would like to explain what God in His Word; which is part of God’s whole armour of God(Ephesians 6:17 for us to withstand the wiles of “satan”) has helped us to learn and understand.Read
It was the Law of Moses and the commandments that God demanded and was revealed in Mount Sinai in Arabia FOR God’s chosen people of Abram to his seed: Jacob=Israel: God’s Nation that would be a “Nation of Priest”; Exodus 19:5, :6.
Why?
Isaiah 60:3 – :16
60:2 God had Isaiah their prophet explain to the Children of Israel as God sought to bring them unto himself: that darkness will cover the earth, AND ‘gross darkness would cover the people’
BUT the Lord SHALL arise UPON “thee”.
WHY?
60:3 – :11 And Gentiles “shall come to thy LIGHT”, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
What will be the result?
Isaiah 60:12 – :22 God’s Promised and Covenanted Kingdom of
Heaven on a perfect Earth where Jesus will sit on the throne
(Luke 1: 31: – :33) of David. God’s promise of Kingdom does not
change.
AND Matthew 19:28 – Luke 22:28 – :30 also explain their Kingdom.
Revelation 22: also explains the place and importance of God’s chosen, appointed Nation of Israel “forever”.
22:2 the holy city — NEW Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven
:9 seven angels show John THIS Holy City –the NEW Jerusalem
:12 …. 12 gates – 12 twelve angels
AND names written ARE the names of the 12 tribes of the
“”children of Israel”
Revelation 22:24 – :27 These verse SHOW Gentiles=Nations who believed and came to THAT Nation of Israel and God and their King; Jesus Christ: came to be proselytes to Jewish—ARE IN THAT “New Jerusalem” THEIR Promised Perfrect Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
WHAT is significance of this?
Jeremiah 31:31 is the prophecy of God to God’s set-apart-Nation of Israel through His prophet Jeremiah of a “New Covenant”;
:32 This Law of Moses and the “ordinances” God required was to be
taught continuely to this Nation.
:33 This “New Covenant” with Israel – God SHALL put MY LAW in
their inward parts, and write it in their hearts… THE Law does
NOT CHANGE nor do their Promises according to Revelation.
Romans 11: God through Paul explains Why God turned from the Nation of Israel and their Kingdom Gospel = Good News.(10:16 – :21)
As prophesied as a Nation they are NOW blinded.Romans 11:7-:11
AND God is no longer preaching Israel’s Good News=Gospel of their coming Promised Kingdom. (( How do we know this? God through Paul explains: Romans 16:25; Galatians 1:12 and Ephesians 3:3))
BUT Romans 11:25 – :27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 – :12 explain the Gospel of the Grace of God and (Ephesians 1:22) the “church” which is Christ’s Body:::
2 Thess. 2:1, :3 “WILL Depart” = Romans 11:25 until the fulness of the gentiles be come-in.
AND Paul explains Romans 11:25 THAT God trough Paul
“”does NOT want” those Romans To Be “IGNorant” of this “Mystery”
that blindness in part is happened to Israel – UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ((AND all this INDEED was a “mystery” to us))
AND what Good-News is Next? = :What good News is after :25?
Romans 11:26 AND so ALL Israel=(Israel is ONLY those who believe)
shall be saved: as it is written(prophecy)…….
:27 For this is my “covenant” UNTO THEM, when I shall
take away their sins.
henoffour:
We encourage you, as you study these scriptures in God’s WORD; to do as you always do before you read the Bible: as you ask for God’s help and understanding. We are glad God knows our limits and has given us time and endurance. Knowing God through his WORD:: is the only way God NOW speaks.
We are grateful for God through Paul explaining God’s whole ‘armour’ THAT we may be ‘able to withstand the wiles of “satan”!!!
Ephesians 6:11 – :18
6:17. WHAT is the Helmet of Salvation?
What is the sword(Hebrews 4:12) of the Spirit?
They Both are “The WORD of God”.
AND we have found THAT God is able to help us and give us understanding.. Quite often verses we read – open up our understanding of other verses and correct our misunderstanding.
AND that includes the “Dispensation of the Grace of God given to Paul: which was a “Mystery”= Secrete hidden in the Mind of God.
It’s interesting that the fellowship and the ministry are seen as the same thing, so that frustration and disillusionment with the ministry necessitates leaving the fellowship. Yet it seems that the local fellowship is your neighbor far more so than the ministry. This seems to have gotten lost in all the abstractions and analogies.
Yep. 100% agree. I’m constantly blown away at the blindness of what to me is so obvious missmatches, disconnects, hypocrisy, systems, rituals, structures, and just not common sense, etc. That, followed up with dogmatic denial and offense, when queried.
I would say that frustration and disillusionment with the ministry does nor necessitate leaving the fellowship. There are many who are frustrated and disillusioned who are continuing with fellowship. That’s ok. There are others who feel that is no longer possible, and that is ok as well.
I think loving your neighbor would engender a certain concern and care for them. It might not involve fellowship with them. Jesus’ love was extended to all. He had fellowship with a few.
Agree to a point, that frustration , dissolution with the ministry doesn’t necessitate leaving, but wrong doctrine, neglecting to tell the truth of origins, not going the way Jesus sent, harbouring criminals, sexually abusing children/ adults and all other kinds of abuse, silencing victims and advocates, very very lax in handling these problems.
No transparency , no accountability, arrogance………………
So it’s really not just a bit of frustration or disillusionment.
I appreciate these comments. Over the past several months of turmoil, I have been very grateful for the friends in my own fellowship meetings. The workers in our area aren’t speaking openly or proactively about the revelations of abuse (which seems to me like an error, though they will talk with us in small informal conversations). However the friends in our regular fellowship meetings have been open to discussion, and have consistently shown grace to one another in understanding that we all struggle with this evolving situation in individual ways. Even friends that I might previously have expected to be more judgmental (sorry to say) of those who “doubt the workers” or reduce meeting attendance etc. have been gracious and supportive and open-minded in a way that seems evidence of the spirit of Christ. I’m not taking it for granted, but I’m grateful for this evidence of genuine love and care in our meeting group.
No confidence:
You are absolutely correct.
Wrong “doctrine” absolutely IS and Does necessitate leaving!
‘Not going the way Jesus sent them is “correct” (and one of the many): IS the VERY REASON every ‘living soul’ must be HONEST with themselves AND actually read what is actually written in God’s Word! The warm, fuzzy, feely of the ‘Fellowship’ is important of and in any group with a common identity and purpose. That feeling of ‘fellowship’ is NOT JUST discovered nor proof of “A Right Way”.
AND does necessitate leaving!
The other ‘actions’ in the list are “just symptoms” of the lack of the power of men. How can they show the Holy Spirit when it is ALL in and of Men.
If those of you who feel you want to continue with your position as an elder of your group BUT not under the WORKERS; are you serious that you want to be the all and end-all for your little group:!?;
you are taking on a great “responsibility”!
You mention Paul and referred to him.
2 Corinthians 5:16 : “we have ‘known Christ(as Jesus) in the FLESH
YET NOW “Henceforth” we know Jesus in the
“flesh” NO More!!!
5:14 For the love of God constrains us; because we
thus judge, that if one died for all, then all dead
:15 and that he died for all, that they which live
should NOT live for unto themselves,
BUT unto Him who died for them
(Here it is). AND ROSE AGAIN!
How do we KNOW Christ?
Risen!
1 Corinthians 15:1-:4 that is The Good-News=Gospel Paul preached.
:1 I declare the gospel unto you
which I preach
which you received
wherein you stand
:2 BY which you are “ALSO Saved”
:3. For I delivered unto you THAT by which I also received
That Christ died for our sins
:4 AND that he was buried
And that “he rose again” the third day
1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17 is our hope
(:and our blessed hope and the glorious appearing-Titus 2:13)
What are the “requirements?
:14 If we “”believe”” that Jesus died
AND “rose again”
We do not NOW “know Jesus in the flesh!; we only know
“Jesus risen” from the GRAVE and ascended into Heaven as Christ.
Acts 9:3 – :16 That is HOW and WHEN the very Christ spoke to Saul.
Ephesians 3:1 – :9 This is what the Risen Christ taught Saul.
Ephesians 2:4 – :9 This is result when they believed the Gospel of
The Grace of God((Romans 3:21 – :27 = But Now)
As you and your wife step away consider all that this verse NEGATES in Jesus fleshly ministry to the Nation of Israel.
As you study: We pray God will bless you: God did Lydia-Act 16:14
Math. 10:5, :6 go NOT to the “gentiles’; go to lost sheep of Israel
Math. 15:24 I am NOT SENT BUT unto the lost sheep of Israel
As you read and study Matthew – John; it is all to Nation of Israel to bring God’s Chosen Nation back to Himself.
That Nation was of the SEED of Abraham: the 12 tribes of Jacob
AND their worship was the Law and Commandments of God to Moses. Yes, the Jewish Religion.
Acts 2:42 – :46.
That explains the Doctrine of the 12 Apostles and ALL who believed: :42 continued steadfastly in the “Apostles Doctrine”!
DOING WHAT?
: 42 – :46 worshipping Daily in the Temple
Do you know any 2×2’s or ministry that follows the 12 sent ‘Apostles’?—as they can’t follow Jesus in His “fleshly” ministry”?
Faith comes by hearing, so the ministry is a very necessary part of what Jesus instituted. Is it only the ministry that can share with us, absolutely not! We are in this walk together. It’s not a race, it’s not a sprint. God wants us to help one another too, which is why having fellowship is so important. Any chance I can meet with God, whether it’s with one friend, or a group, or listening to the Gospel, I will. Because it’s us helping one another that helps us to actually grasp what Jesus was teaching. He taught a lot in those three years!
@Edith
I dont think it has gotten lost though. Like me many appreciate their local fellowship gathering but there are2 things to consider:
1. Most fellowships support the Ministry( gospel meetings, convention, special meetings etc). I would venture to say most in the Ministry have been at one time or another aware of some sort of abuse and maybe conformed to the the general consensus. It leaves a bad taste to honest hearts.
2. You love the folks in your meeting, but how can you truly fellowship with others who see things differently. Some thing we should just forgive and move on. Some think victims are liars. Some just shrug and dont care. Some believe its wrong but don’t want to rock the boat, like Dan said.
Very important observation, Edith. It needs to be focused on.
Thank you for all the thought and energy and time you took to explain all that. I have no doubt that God will guide you and lead you forward in love..
There is a little thought in Job 42-10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job when he prated for his friends… It made me think how much higher Gods thoughts are than ours. These friends of Job did everything that a true friend should not do to Job. They blamed him when he was innocent, they belittled him, abused him , tried to make him lose all confidence in God. Our human thinking would be these friends need to repent, they need to apologize, etc etc. but that didn’t seem to be Gods mind on it. God was looking for Job to pray for his friends. I wonder, did God want Job to get to the place where he could see that his friends weren’t the enemy? Satan was the enemy? Wonderful that Job found the way to have peace with his friends and restoration with God.
@Amen….valid point, and one we should always apply I think. I probably need to pray more for the Overseers wisdom. I dont think its the same kind of situation though. Like presently, while there may be a host of other issues coming to the surface, including emotional, verbal, psycological and other abuses, the most concerning has been CSA/SA. Should we just pray for the perps, the enablers without stepping up and demanding accountabilty? Matthew tells us what to do in the 18th chapter v15-17; he didnt stop at praying. Jesus never stopped at praying either when he turned over the tables of the temple and drove out those who were corrupting the temple. Many of examples throughout scripture of those who not only prayed but allowed God to work through them.
Paul says in 1rst Corinthians 5:
[11] But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
So there we have it.
Thank you for your thoughtful letter! We left meetings several months ago after reading about the truth’s history and founder. Like you, we began questioning the scriptural accuracy of the doctrine and traditions and finding those lacking. We now identify the truth as being a fundamentalist /legalistic group based on the limited commission rather than than the great commission (Matt 28).
For years prior to leaving, I had stopped wearing skirts all the time. Like many, I wore and dressed our girls in dress and skirts to meetings and around the workers and friends out of respect. Now I wonder what was I truly sacrificing and what message was I sending to wear the ‘uniform’ in meetings and around the workers? I do not believe that this was a righteous sacrifice but rather one to appeal to my human need for belonging and acceptance at the cost of giving up an outward showing of my convictions that God is not asking women to wear dresses/skirts and to draw attention to our self through physical appearance. For years I saw the vanity and pride in the ‘uniform’ and as an outlet for judgment and condemnation to the women who don’t fall in line.
It is also now so clear to me how the ‘uniform’ limits the spread of the gospel because ‘outsiders’ will quickly dismiss anyone who appears so culturally atypical.
On a darker side and in light of the CSA and SA revelations, I wonder how many lady workers use the ‘uniform’ as an armor. Not a Godly armor that is, but one as a means as protection to ward off unwanted advances? If I was in their position, I would naturally feel safer if I did little to make myself attractive.
If any ladies are struggling to understand how God wants them to dress, it was very helpful for me to simply google the verses about dress to better understand the translation and cultural and history relevance and application to myself.
If we were still going to meetings and conventions, I’d feel safer in pants and dressing our girls in pants because there’s easier access in skirts.
Dress, what you said is very accurate and important: “If any ladies are struggling to understand how God wants them to dress, it was very helpful for me to simply google the verses about dress to better understand the translation and cultural and history relevance and application to myself”.
To better understand the BIBLE, it is vital to understand the cultural, historical and political relevance at the time the scriptures were written. Without that understanding, the depth of the scriptures, and the relevance to us today, will be seriously lacking. Today we attend an E-Free Church after decades of going to meetings. The whole Bible has now opened up to us in both the Sunday morning service and in small group Bible studies. It is incredibly refreshing to get the entire context of the scriptures. To know the background, the historical situation in the area at the time where the scriptures were written, and who the attendance was that the letter, or scriptures were written to.
Pulling a verse out of the Bible and really getting an in depth knowledge of that verse is so much more edifying than just pulling a verse out of the Bible, without the context, and then hearing someone’s spin on the verse when they have no idea what the context is. Much like we heard in gospel meetings. And, many of the church rules implement. The context is completely missing.
Context- Amen!
The Bible does not tell anyone to wear a dress, or pants, or any specific type of clothing, but it does address how women should dress in I Timothy 2 9-10. I used to think that women were only to wear a dress, and if you couldn’t modestly do so, you weren’t supposed to indulge. Then, I met Ray Jamison (Willie Jamison’s nephew), who was laboring in a foreign country, when he came to dinner with another couple who he was staying with. He was in the living room and excused himself, and came back out in the attire a male would wear in the foreign country, and went on to share a study with us all on clothing. His apparel (looked like a piece of cloth that was draped to resemble a dress) was far closer to what I had on, than any of the men’s in the room. He asked, “now who’s wearing men’s clothing?” Our children had the best laugh, and I learned a lot that evening. I wear pants when they would be more modest with a tunic overtop, so as to keep my backside modest as well. I don’t ever want to do something that would cause another to be tempted, or stumble, nor be offended. I’m sure I have (I am human), but not intentionally. In the United States, it had been customary for women to wear dresses for decades, and as people travel, they learn new customs. Which one is right/wrong? Neither. What IS wrong is doing something with the wrong attitude, and without the Spirit of God. Some female workers think your dresses should be exactly 4″ above the ankle, some think just below the knee, and some have no opinion. I wear mine to the floor, because should I need to bend over… But, I get flack for that too. So, I know I’ve raised some eyebrows when our grandchildren were begging to come to meeting with us, and I said, “Yes, as long as they are wearing pants or leggings”…their unprofessing mother, who’s got very limited understanding of what we believe, sent them out the door in the cutest little tunics with leggings. Now the other mother’s in the meeting are feeling more empowered to dress their children modestly too. Be the change, by really reading what’s there and what isn’t.
I am hesitant to consider or state that a girl could be a stumbling block as it insinuates she is controlling a man’s response to her dress, rather than the man being responsible for their thoughts and actions.
Sadly, sexual violence against women cannot be controlled by dress. There was a Moving exhibit in which women’s outfits were displayed what that they were wearing when they were sexually assaulted. As you can imagine, most of these outfits would be considered modest.
Purity culture, and demanding women to be modestly dressed, has been linked to increased sexual violence against women as men feel like they are not in control, but rather the women, and therefore excusing them of violence.
One helpful book for me was the Making Biblical Womanhood by Barr. She is a historian that brings to light how biblical womanhood has been a manufactured idea, especially in evangelical circles since the 80s. She debunks so many commonly held beliefs regarding biblical woman theologically, historically, and culturally.
The truths’s dress rules fall under legalism. It is now so clear that legalism results and judgment and pride, and most significantly devalues Christ sacrifice for us, as it turns salvation in to a works based practice.
Judging and policing of people’s dress and grooming (especially women’s and girls’, but really everyone’s) is a very human tendency, and a feature of many patriarchal, hierarchical societies and organizations around the world. We don’t have any record of Jesus commenting on dress and grooming, so we don’t have much basis for thinking it’s “Christian” to focus on these aspects.
Importantly for this website: No one, of any gender or age, in any circumstance, invites or prompts sexual abuse through their dress or appearance. Abuse is entirely the responsibility of the abuser.
@ Dress & @ Observer – The guys aren’t looking at what people are wearing, that has nothing to do with them finding targets. Human predators are no different than any other predator. They are looking for the weakest in the pack, the defenseless, the quiet ones, ones they think will never become a squeaky wheel.
I wasn’t wearing provocative clothing when I was assaulted, but my clothing DID bring attention to me, even though it was modest, because I had had professional help in choosing something that fit, and was good for my shape (which wasn’t an apple, like it is now), and it wasn’t a dress. Believe me, the last thing he was observing was my attire. But, 1Timothy 2 does mention that we are to be modest. Does that mean we HAVE to wear dresses, no. Do people of our fellowship wear dresses all over the world, no. They all dress according to what’s customary in their own countries, just like America’s women have been wearing dresses of all lengths and types to important events for most of my life. It’s only been in recent years that some are dressing in pant suits. In my opinion I believe when Paul addressed it, he meant more that women wouldn’t be trying to dress to appear as a man or the masculine side of a hopeful relationship. A male worker is the one who showed me that my dresses were more like HIS clothing that he was to wear to be modest as a man in the country he labored in. He asked me, so who’s wearing “men’s attire in this situation?” He explained that I wasn’t, because I wasn’t trying to emulate a man, and he was, because that’s just what men wore in Thailand. I agree with what he shared, because I spent time reading and praying about it after he left, and found it to be more sound thinking than what I had heard from the sister workers and my mother. So, I do wear pants when I feel it’s appropriate, and dresses when appropriate or I just feel like it. I’m not dressing to cause offense, nor dressing to please anyone.
To Henoffour (replying to your message a few lines below but don’t see a Reply button there): Thank you for your thoughtful postings here, and like others, I appreciate the respectful approach and tone, and your sharing of what sound like very profound personal experiences.
.
Because this is a website about sexual abuse of children and other vulnerable people, it seems important to note how human-created sexism, misogyny and bias shape a group culture where abuse can occur, and also shape some of the thinking expressed in posts here.
.
On this basis, I want to repeat the point that we don’t have any record of Jesus treating or advising anyone differently on the basis of gender. Even Paul acknowledges, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28, King James version)
.
So we don’t have any basis to think that whether a woman dresses “to emulate a man” or otherwise has something to do with Jesus’ teachings. If a person has a personal conviction about this, that’s fine, but we can’t reasonably say this is relevant to following Jesus, according to the records we have.
.
Mistaken human thinking about gender has put too many people (female and male) in bondage, and has helped create conditions for abuse to take place.
Dress: this deserves to be in bold print!
“The truths’s dress rules fall under legalism. It is now so clear that legalism results and judgment and pride, and most significantly devalues Christ sacrifice for us, as it turns salvation in to a works based practice”.
Very, very true! … dress rules…judgment and pride, and most significantly devalues Christ sacrifice for us. That defines the (twisted) truth. For appearance sake. You must be obedient.
Not a CSA victim here; or as Oprah would recommend saying: “not to the best of my recollection at this time.” B&R in this religion, Escaped/booted when I was in college and also outed as gay.
Mostly I feel ashamed of my family, who most all determined they couldn’t abide my “lifestyle decisions.” I always thought they at least had a backbone even though they were all spiritually and psychologically abused for generations. I was raised believing it important to stand up to injustice.
From my family on/at any forum? Radio silence. It’s nothing short of disgusting, disappointing, and sadly probably on-brand for nearly everyone I knew in this religion, “friends” and “family” alike.
Make no mistake silence is complicity. Doing “nothing” is the most you can do to support corrupt and illegal behavior. I find it to be repulsive and disgusting; especially how this religion and the leaders (both workers and elders) have destroyed more family units than anything else I have seen in my life, preying on the foolish and ignorant. Well, now if you’re ignorant, it’s willful; and you won’t find a drop sympathy from me or many others.
To L: I am very sorry you’ve had these difficult experiences, and I can understand the strength of sentiment you express here. I don’t know whether you and I know one another, but I do know at least three other people with experiences similar to what you describe.
For a few decades it’s been clear to me that as a fellowship group, we don’t have a Christian or even a sensible approach on issues of sexuality (especially re: attitudes and behaviors towards people who are gay, bi, etc). As you mention this lack of wisdom, understanding and love has caused unnecessary ruptures in families and communities, as well as some terrible tragedies.
L:
Your letter screams ‘abuse’.
Your family also felt ‘abuse’.
Yes, from “friends and Family” alike.
Your BIG mistake; if you wanted acceptance and approval; was when you “outed as a Gay”.
You made the wrong Choice for acceptance and approval!
You could have had “acceptance, approval, and your chosen life style, ALL by putting on a three piece suit – shine your shoes and grab a Bible and a suit-case. AND YOU COULD HAVE BEEN an ‘Idol’ for all to honor for ALL your great sacrifice.
You could have travelled the world – all expense paid – with a group at every port; – waving and cheering you on!
You could have the joy of learning international customs while you study their life style and get close to their children.
You could teach and twist Jesus’ fleshly-human Doctrine’ and return to your Homeland with Glory and Fame while people settle-in – open their note books for the message of one who is so humble a servant AT OUR Convention!
You could of HAD all of this, for all these years: before being ‘outed’, Now.
I really hope this is satire of the self-righteous answer that my blood relatives have, in fact, used before. Ghastly, really.
For the record, I’m more often happy and entirely content with my decisions and where they have led me. It would be some form of hell on earth to remain in that religion and situation.
To L ~ I accept you and believe that you were beautifully created this way. I empathize and can enter into some of your experience because we have an adult child who is LGBTQ. I have not felt support from my professing siblings. My husband’s family who has never been professing but who have strong faith have been an amazing source of support and love. That speaks volumes to me.
A day of reckoning has come @L for families. Natural families and churchly families. And national families.
And your story is one of two different stories as Mistake below mentions. And there are many of these either-or stories in the fellowship. The one story was to leave or get booted for being honest. The other story, well being honest was not an option to them or their family. Not being honest is/was a tragedy in the making though. The hypocrisy that entered the work to labor under the covers is a downhill slide. It starts off being somewhat a strategy of innocence and well meaning, but turns aside into the city with walls. The lullabies of self-talk to please the congregants eventually put a soul to sleep.
I take it fully on the chin. I have covered my tracks in life to the saving of my own will and pride. I have been known to be a liar to cover my own will and pride. I was convinced that guile would be to the saving of my own soul. I have pushed back against others putting their finger on my ugly truth – in fact I fought back at times. In so many various forms of words put together, I called it a witch hunt. I came to understand, the more I pushed back, the more it became evident I had something to hide. And the longer it went on, the more my mind and heart turned into a hamster wheel. A broken record for the records. I began to believe in myself my broken record was true.
Shortly after Sinéad O’Connor the Irish singer was on SNL (1992?) and ripped up the photo of the pope in front of millions in defiance of the church’s coverup of child sexual abuse, she went on stage at Bob Dylan’s 30th anniversary concert. Half the crowd booed her (the louder part) and part of the crowd cheered at her courage. Kris Kristofferson came on stage and whispered in her ear … “don’t let the bastards get you down”. It was 7 or 8 years before the pope grudgingly admitted there ‘may’ have been hankey-panky going on in the chambers of influence.
Does anyone want to meditate for a while on this city enclosed by walls?
Silence IS complicity!!!
Somewhat direct and a very real statement: “Make no mistake silence is complicity. Doing “nothing” is the most you can do to support corrupt and illegal behavior. I find it to be repulsive and disgusting; especially how this religion and the leaders (both workers and elders) have destroyed more family units than anything else I have seen in my life, preying on the foolish and ignorant”.
Well said and thank you for your input.
To complicity
I do agree to a certain extent that silence is complicity. However, as with much I am seeing, there is flushing out in many ways two (actually three or four) dimensions to what is going on in the world of groupings; from family units into church organizations with control structure, up through cultures into the strings controlling nations. There is silence coming from more than one quarter. And what do all the silences mean?
So as is evident, there is silence coming from the attic. The rafters of the organization. A continued silence that for people that are interested in the search for truth see now was faith based in their quiet work of re-creation. Re-creation from the call to follow the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ the risen one into a call to follow others and a church organization. The nakedness was covered and the people were silenced for fear of revealing this shame. The genesis of this fear, people can meditate on. But only one element of fear was really marketed, subtly or vocally, in the church organizations on a mission to build their congregations and tax base.
Then there is the silence of the victims. The silence of the victims has been for the same length of time as the silence of the influencers. The lambs and sheep were silenced by the self-appointed shepherds. Some people are calling it 1900 years, I often call it 1800 years. It is somewhere there. When this organization made great effort in covering up any mention of Wiley leaving the Faith Mission to start his own experiment, and worked on people to think it all came from the shores of Galilee, in a sense they were partially clear and partially right in that matter. But there was a 100 or 200 or 300 year gap in between Jesus ascension and the spirit of the religio-city that rose up out of the boot encompassed on three sides by sea. And truth be known, possibly this spirit began to rise up even before the 100 years after the crucifixion. I think maybe something likely stepped into the void within months or a few years.
And another interesting part is, there are innumerable (as I am coming to understand) victims of this spirit that will not come forward and wish to remain silent. I fault them in no way. They want to get on with their life and don’t want to open the old wounds they feel are somewhat bearable to live with. Each one will decide how best to deal with it. I do think (non-psychologist here) that a wound totally scarred over will have resilience. But if resilience is lacking, then likely the wound will continue to pain the heart. Just my unexpert view. Opening an unhealed wound to clean it out that healing can begin will be painful.
Then there are those victims that are silent because there truly was resolution to the conflict. There truly was penance on the one part and truly was forgiveness on the other. In this case, the aggressor and the victim moved on. But I am guessing this a very infrequent occurrence. And never happened when/if the victim was a child. When a child was a sexual victim of an adult, then there is no moving on and getting over it with the snap of a church master’s fingers. It was easier to snap the victim into oblivion than face up to truth. Laying hands on the congregation then made certain they all remained hypnotized. The aggressor unloaded the conflict onto the victim fully and went on his/her merry way singing hymns and reciting psalms. The spirit of the organization buffered the aggressor and as a result felt a need to disown the victim if the victim or their advocate(s) spoke up. The easy way out for the self-appointed shepherds.
For 42 months in prophet speak (1270 years +/- in calendar speak) this spirit held dominance and trod on Jerusalem and around the expanding world. Emperor Constantine (reign 307 to 337AD) was instrumental in bringing that spirit to dominance. But the spirit out of the boot in the sea took a (seeming) lethal hit by the protestant movement that rose out of central Europe (the land) to challenge the dominance of the spirit that rose up out of the sea. That spirit said to the people, all is fixed now and there will be peace for the people. But the first spirit recovered and his deadly wound healed.
Then there is another silence in the church. They are not complicit in the coverups though it may seem that way. They are reasoning with the Holy Spirit what the revealing of the noisome sores in organized religion over the last 25 years means. They are searching for the truth of the matter because the odor of the noisome sores is continuing to waft up to their noses and it smells foreboding to them.
It is recorded that Jesus mentioned “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd”. With the revelations of the last 25 years, or the last 21 months…why do the people still flock to the many folds of man and the many shepherds that herald salvation and peace on earth when there is no peace?
As I crossed the mountain in the night sky many months ago, I came upon an old friend. Or he came upon me. Didn’t know him well really, but now I call him an old friend. He has passed on some time ago. He had thick glasses, but I see now in my night journey that he saw. He approached me on the path on the mountain, and he had a stick. There was a reptile of sorts with a tough hide on the pathway overturned on its back and flattened. It looked like it had been stomped on and flipped over. Or flipped over and stomped on. My old friend, the one with a young daughter (at the time) that was abused by influence in the church, and the daughter has not recovered after decades…my old friend poked at the overturned, flattened beast and it let out an eery squeal.
If I could take on the pain of one victim that they would get their life back I would. But never fear Mark. The enterprise is adept at causing pain…and they are already looking for my pain points to trigger me into acquiescence and obedience. And silence all my thoughts and reasoning in subjection to their will.
I had two JW come to my door maybe 25 or 30 years ago and they wanted to tell me how their way, only their way, was right. I must have scrunched up my face a little bit here and there in their pitch because one finally said to me, does it not say ‘come let us reason together’? It certainly does say that. But think the two at the door had a little problem. Not sure which one of the two thought they were God, but evidently at least one of them did. Or at a minimum, one or both figured they were God’s righthand men in scotchbrite armor.
And oh, lest I forget Complicity. There is silence also from the five eyes. And the silence will not remain forever because I am guessing they are tired of hearing they are complicit. The great falling away will follow the way of the [spiritual] groomer; but the Groom is beginning to speak more clearly. Follow the light of the Candle wheresoever it leads. According to prophecy, it will lead out of something. Ask me how I know there are various silences in the eves that do not agree. On second thought, don’t ask me.
Time to shield the children from the world wide web of reasoning that twists the knowledge of good and evil together. And conversely, the adults are offered the ability to judge the twisted framework and to search by any/all means of digging and investigation to find the Truth for themselves, and that they could leave an honest and true spiritual heritage and inheritance for their children. A simple matter made complex when church and state made thousands of laws to try to force love. None of it worked very well and the wild grapes have turned the children’s teeth on edge. Our Leader True is who? Come again? I didn’t quite catch what you said. You seem to be mumbling. Maybe take the marbles out and try again. Enunciate clearly or might you ever retain your impediment. (I didn’t mean that for you complicity – I know you will understand when I am talking third person in my writing)
It is kind of sad to see a man or woman that has given four decades (or however many decades) in service and power and then be depressed in their departing days from office because the last years in the role they played defined their legacy. When austerity measures came in the church, the people cried “No way Josè!” “You will not take my entitlements away and still retain your kingship and my vote”. The leader’s hands are tied because cupidity crept in to the majority unawares. Spiritual Cupid will bankrupt the psyche before admitting – “Ummm, I think we are broke”. Chapter eleven will be declared and filed. Revelation chapter eleven I think maybe.
Boys oh boys I am glad there are about 70,000 in the global fellowship that do not like to read. I am not sure I could bear the burden of all those reading my manuscripts. As we sing the last hymn, any professing the role of spiritual leadership in the world can stand to their feet and begin to make an outward profession that the little ones matter. Actually everyone matters, but unless the little ones are provided for, nothing will matter. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. Who has the steely resolve of will to grasp their chair tight with both hands to prevent them from standing up?
And oh, before I go and let people duck out of my wind blowing from one direction and another. I heard recently that Ontario added 80,000 homeless to the list of homeless in the past year. That is just Ontario. Let me not spoon feed people in interpreting this picture. Like I have said before, this church I think is a very unique church in the big picture. I am sure this organization will find its rightful place in the records, albeit maybe only in the National Archives. What meaneth this silence around Jericho? Or do I have it all wrong and Jericho is already burning? Half brothers in the church were bound to pose a problem sooner or later. Are the brothers each half right, or are they each half wrong? ‘Cause someones seem to be fibbin’.
And to all the victims in this church and others – A phoenix rises from the ashes for a reason. Your world must be destroyed for you to rise anew. And rise you shall. Just as they feared you would.
L — you couldn’t have said it any better than saying, “preying on the foolish and ignorant”. Yes, this religion is intolerant thinking that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin. We all have sin and were born sinners.
The fact that the religion does not acknowledge Christ as fully God, shows the complete falsehood of this religion. Jesus is fully God as noted time and again throughout the Word of God, in the Bible. Jesus was not merely a good man.
Jesus always was, and always will be. Jesus is forever. The workers don’t preach this though, because THEY want to be the ones worshipped. Go to a “good professing home” and do you see any signs of Christ Jesus, who died for our sins? A cross as a reminder? No, but you will see pictures of workers.
Can you explain why you would want a cross hanging on your wall?
For me, if my very precious brother were to be unjustly murdered by someone with a machine gun, I don’t think I’d glorify the weapon and hang replicas on my wall, or around my neck. That’s how I feel when I look at a replica of the instrument of torture that Jesus was murdered on.
Are you testing some new stand-up material?
You sing songs twice a week about the cross. So many of your often plagiarized hymns talk about it.
So… with your analogy… sing on about being a patient loyal bearer of the AR-15 that killed over 100 American children in the last 10 years.
Or consider adding a few ingredients to your thoughts like logic, reasoning, humility, eagerness to learn… you know, real gifts from god.
Thank you so much for your heartfelt words. May God continue to open your eyes and bless you.
I was in this way for a short time. My family is still in it( brothers and sister)
I learned a little bit when I read how God kept the mystery a secret making Paul the apostle to us, the gentiles, it just led me to follow Paul’s letters. He got it all from Jesus. God is good!