WINGS Note:
Friends in Missouri and elsewhere are choosing to have safe fellowship without unresponsive leaders.
Note 2 (added December 23) The letter is open for further signatures at https://voicesforthetruth.org/resources/for-friends/friends-statement-committing-to-safer-fellowship-and-church-policies/#signatures
Clarification: Clever convention is cancelled.
To the Friends and Workers of our community,
We are broken-hearted and devastated after hearing about so many painful and traumatic experiences in our fellowship from the sexual assault1 and child sexual abuse2 that have come to light since March 2023. Still, we are thankful God has opened our eyes to what has happened so that we can do what is within our power to stop the abuse and to help victim-survivors begin to heal. We are only beginning to learn what has been hidden for decades by the ministry we once trusted. Courageous men and women, victim-survivors, are finally making their voices heard.
We have decided that we will only participate in a fellowship that has guidelines and governance that protects our fellowship from harm; holds predators, perpetrators, and other complicit parties of such abuse accountable; and supports victim-survivors of sexual assault and child sexual abuse. We welcome you to unite with us in safe fellowship.
At this time, we will continue to have fellowship with all of you in accordance with safety guidelines, our conscience, and the word of God. We will continue to follow the heart of Jesus and promote the safety of all, especially the children and those who are most vulnerable within our fellowship. We cannot allow history to repeat itself and we must choose the righteous path that God has revealed to us. We choose love.
We are not abandoning our faith or our fellowship. Rather, the leaders who choose not to accept the responsibility to enact policies that protect the vulnerable have abandoned us. Our faith in the Lord remains strong, and we will continue to have nourishing fellowship in ways that do not compromise the values and the safety of our community.
As such, we are unified in our commitment to implementing a safety policy in our meetings. Given the decades of disturbing and widespread sexual violence that has been uncovered, any fellowship we participate in will have the following:
- A protocol for immediate action on all reports of SA and CSA that includes cooperating with legal authorities and third-party abuse investigators regarding the alleged abuse. This also includes notifying all individuals in the fellowship who might come into contact with the alleged perpetrator.
- A transparent structure of accountability for members of the ministry who conceal or ignore allegations or reports of sexual assault or child sexual abuse.
- Regular training and education for all members of our fellowship on issues of consent, sexual violence, and the importance of safeguarding minors and other vulnerable members of our fellowship.
- Meaningful support for victim-survivors.
- A commitment to continually review and improve these policies and practices, ensuring that our fellowship remains a safe and nurturing environment for all who wish to participate without fear of encountering a perpetrator.
You can find some of the policies we have enacted and region-specific information here: https://bit.ly/safe-fellowship-policies
We know that many of you who are in the ministry of our fellowship share our conviction, and we invite you to continue to be a part of this fellowship as we make it safer for all. It no longer can be assumed we will offer our homes or our financial support to members of the ministry unless they are willing to uphold the basic tenets outlined above. We pray that members of the ministry and its leadership will do what is right for the good of this fellowship.
To help you understand why we must take this stand, we want to share some of the devastating information that has been revealed to us:
- Sexual assault (SA) and Child sexual abuse (CSA) are widespread across our fellowship.
- In the 10 months between March and November of this year, more than 675 perpetrators of sexual assault or child sexual abuse amongst our fellowship have been reported to the police, legal authorities, and private investigators. Of these 675 alleged perpetrators, the percentage who are workers is roughly 40% (270), and nearly all include instances of CSA.
- It is almost certain that every member of our fellowship knows more than one friend who has or is currently experiencing sexual violence perpetrated by another member of our fellowship.
- Less than half of the SA cases and fewer than one in 10 CSA cases are ever reported.3 Additionally, nearly every perpetrator has multiple victims.4 In other words, the 675 named perpetrators likely represent thousands upon thousands of members of our community who have suffered sexual abuse. We know many victim-survivors will never tell their story, but we want them to know we care about them and that they can be assured we are working for safety within the fellowship.
- All reports of SA and CSA should be taken seriously, and attempts to dismiss these claims are a source of direct harm to our fellowship.
- The reason these sexual abuse crimes are rarely reported or prosecuted is not because they didn’t happen. Only 2% of reports of sexual violence are ever falsified.4 What prevents victim-survivors from coming forward in nearly all cases are the cultures of blame, minimization, and denial they face if they choose to seek support from family, friends, members of our faith, and ministry.5 This culture also allows predators to continue to abuse their victims without fear of meaningful consequences.
- Victim-survivors need our help and support.
- Victim-survivors of SA and CSA may experience devastating, wide-ranging, and long-term effects, including depression and anxiety, self-destructive behaviors including suicide, feelings of worthlessness, and a higher likelihood of sexual assaults in the future.6
- Despite messaging from current leadership and staff, attempts to address this crisis without a safety policy have left our fellowship unprotected and victim-survivors unsupported.
- As the attached letters show, there have been many times when events have put our members at risk, in direct contradiction with the assurances that workers have made that predators are ‘being handled’ appropriately.*
- We cannot depend on a ministry that does not provide for a home or the care of a family to suggest an adequate policy that protects children, women, the vulnerable in the fellowship, the church in the home, and property.
- The ministers in this fellowship are not responsible for providing for a home, nor do they know the feeling of responsibility and care for a spouse, children, or grandchildren.
We invite you to unite with us in safe fellowship in accordance with these guidelines, whether you are a Friend, Elder, Worker, or Overseer. Please visit https://bit.ly/safe-fellowship-commitment to join us in this commitment to safer fellowship standards.
In faith and resolve,
[Growing list of signatures can be viewed at: https://voicesforthetruth.org/resources/for-friends/friends-statement-committing-to-safer-fellowship-and-church-policies/#signatures]
Footnotes
- Sexual assault (SA) is any sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the consent of the victim-survivor. Sexual assault is a broad term that applies to many types of sex crimes committed against adults, including when the victim lacks the capacity to consent or when power differentials exist. In our fellowship, workers have authority over friends, brother workers have authority over sister workers, and men have authority over women, so what may seem to be a ‘consensual relationship’ may result from coercion.
- CSA, or child sexual abuse, refers to sex crimes committed against a minor. CSA is sometimes referred to as sexual abuse (CSA). CSA may be committed by adults or by older children. CSA can be either physical or nonphysical. CSA can even exist in the absence of touching. This might include exposing a person’s genitals to a child, encouraging a child to watch or hear sexual acts either in person or on a video, photographing a child in a sexual position, obscene conversations or text, etc.
- The Impact of Sexual Violence. National Sexual Violence Resource Center. https://nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Factsheet_Impact-of-sexual-violence_0.pdf
- Facts and Statistics About Sex Offending. City of Golden, Colorado. https://www.cityofgolden.net/media/FASO.pdf
- Ahrens, C. E. (2006, December). Being silenced: The impact of negative social reactions on the disclosure of rape. American Journal of Community Psychology. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1705531/
- Effects of sexual violence. RAINN. https://www.rainn.org/effects-sexual-violence
*Letters of support from some who have signed:
CLEVER CONVENTION GROUND OWNERS & PARENTS OF A VICTIM-SURVIVOR — Missouri
Wed, Dec. 13, 2023
Friends,
We are writing to you with broken hearts. We feel moved to share this with you because we care deeply about your spiritual and physical safety. This letter is our response to the devastating news and events that have unfolded since last spring when we learned of the horrific abuse of our dear fellowship children and friends. We also discovered that members of our trusted ministry actually covered up these criminal acts and allowed the abuse to continue. We knew that we must do our part to protect and support victim-survivors. We are shocked and devastated to learn that our ministry does not feel the same.
We have hosted the Clever convention on our property for 21 years and had hoped to preserve this special reunion for years to come. Unfortunately, because leadership will not take meaningful steps to resolve the abuse issues, we are heartbroken to have to tell you that we have no intention of hosting another Special Meeting or Convention on our property.
Since leadership has chosen not to support or protect its flock, we can no longer support the ministry or its leadership in any way. We will continue to be a safe place for anyone — worker, member, former member, or otherwise — who stands with victim-survivors.
The priorities of the ministry were made clear to us when Craig visited with us on Aug. 8, shortly after the Overseers Meeting in Seneca, IL. When we asked him if the Overseers would pass a universal policy for creating a safer fellowship, he shared with us what their real concern was.
Here is a transcript of him describing the Overseers’ consensus, during that conversation with us:
“One of the issues, and this is another way of looking at it… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.
So, there’s that thought that we don’t want to become identified as one universal fellowship even though we have a lot in common; there is room for regional differences.
It’s one of the reasons we haven’t been sued in the sense because there’s no Central money, and so there’s no way to identify some kind of incentive.”
We never considered there was “another way of looking at” protecting our fellowship from abuse. Yet Craig’s statements demonstrate that the Overseers are more concerned with protecting their finances and shielding themselves from the law than they are with keeping us safe. They seem willing to distort their view in order to protect worldly goods rather than the people they claim to be a shepherd of.
When we asked Craig to share with us some of what our leadership discussed at the overseer’s meeting, he said that Barry Barkley started the meeting by saying:
“Perhaps this is the Lord’s way of disciplining His ministry or, as he called it, ‘Chastising’ His ministry.”
As parents, we know that it is heartbreaking to discipline those we love, but it is necessary for our children’s safety. And that discipline must result in change. Why has our leadership chosen earthly comforts over God’s correction?
In our meeting with the task force on Dec. 10, Craig and his staff mentioned that the workers are confident in how they are currently handling allegations. However, their method of ‘handling’ allegations is no different than it was before this chastisement. They rely on deceitful and dishonest perpetrators to stay within boundaries that they’ve crossed before. We know of a few recent examples in our region where this system has already failed.
1. One of the workers gave an example of how well they believe they’ve handled a specific CSA predator in Oklahoma. However, several months back, this same predator showed up at our home with two of his children. We had no idea there were serious allegations against him and feel violated that the ministry hid information about his past from us and did not give us the opportunity to make an informed decision about whether to allow him into our home.
2. After sharing our draft convention safety policy, we received information a man who raped a 15-year-old girl has not only been attending our conventions for years but also hosts a meeting in his home. The ministry was aware of his actions in 2019, and claims to have ‘handled it’ appropriately. We don’t know whether or not Craig had this information when he came to our area, but we do know that he has been aware of it since 8/17/23 when we shared it with him. There is still a meeting in the predator’s home, and he showed up at an event two weeks ago where many workers and Friends were present.
In that same meeting, the workers said their concern about a policy is that it would cause the ministry to rely on man-made rules rather than spirit-led decisions. The scourge of evil within this church has proven that the ministry requires a policy in order to establish the bare minimum of care for our flock. What is spirit-led should be far and beyond what is in a policy. Perhaps 5, 10, or 15 years from now a policy may fade into the background as people are made aware and we work together to form a culture that cares for victim-survivors and protects our fellowship from predators. But before that can happen, there must be a unified understanding of the evil in our midst. Until then, the ministry will continue to create division by refusing to be honest about these atrocities.
We had hopes that we could work with Craig on resolving these issues, but the leadership’s stance has made that impossible. The vast scope of evil within our ministry proves beyond any doubt that a written policy is essential. The leadership was invited to multiple task force meetings, which included many concerned friends, where we implored them to make changes for a safer fellowship. Sadly, the leadership is firm in its stance and feels confident in its handling of allegations. Their faulty system will continue to fail, and history will repeat itself. Our goals of finding unity and working together with the ministry have been thwarted.
At this time we desire to continue to follow the heart of Jesus and look at the safety of our children and most vulnerable in the fellowship. We CANNOT look at it any other way. We CANNOT choose earthly comfort over the righteous path that God has revealed to us. We believe that every penny that this ministry is trying to protect should go toward support for victim-survivors. We will no longer be financially supporting this ministry in any way. We will continue to have fellowship with all of you in accordance with safety guidelines, our conscience, and the word of God.
Lecil and Gaby Townsend
ELDER & WIFE (SURVIVOR) — Missouri
Wed, Dec. 13, 2023
Our Most Precious Friends,
Most days since March of this year have been filled with deep sadness at what we have learned. As we write this today, it is no different. The sadness we feel nearly takes our breath away, but amid the sadness, we feel a profound thankfulness that we have a Father that has been so patient & kind to us in this journey. He has been willing to carry the heaviness when it seemed too much.
Through all of this we have been reminded of how precious the children & the vulnerable are to Jesus because He used many examples of this. When we married, our greatest hope was to bring children into this world and we begged God to bless us with them. Sadly, our first two babies went to heaven prior to us holding them. We believe that perhaps, those two precious little lives went to God so that we would have a greater understanding of the seriousness of being parents. We now have the privilege of God lending us 5 beautiful souls here on earth. We are tremendously protective of them, and raising them has been one of our greatest joys. Through them we have gotten to see the heart of our Father more clearly. It is not something we have ever taken lightly & we know God sees every child through much more profound vision than even ours. Little children teach us so much! How to unselfishly love, how to forgive, how to not keep records of wrongs, how to not envy. It is no wonder their angels see the face of God always! The fact that little children & the vulnerable have been used, abused, discounted, labeled & discarded like yesterday’s trash within our fellowship is more than we can fathom. It is a stain and a stench that has reached up to heaven.
We looked to those in our leadership thinking they would have the same level of horror that we do and we have been deeply grieved to realize not only that they don’t, but often seem dismissive or even apathetic. It seems, although they have spoken often about sorrow and repentance, it is not something that they can live out. The longer we have progressed in this journey it has become obvious our leaders have known of these horrible crimes for many years, explaining why they weren’t shocked at their exposure. Perhaps another reason why they are not also horrified is they have never experienced human love on the level a parent does when their new born baby is placed in their arms and we are awestruck at the miracle of life God created. Every victims’ story we have viewed as though it was one of our own precious children who was violated. It has crushed us deeply to experience that pain. It has made the hymn “I want to feel the pain my neighbors often know” very palpable, because our visceral reaction is to run away from the pain of others, but as someone shared, to turn away from the pain of others is another layer of abuse, and Jesus did not ever do that.
Our resolve has become more grounded as each day has passed, that “not on our watch” will we let this happen to another precious little vulnerable soul. We have pleaded with God for help & clarity. We don’t know or understand why God revealed this in such a profound way, but it is very clear that He is calling to those who have ears to hear and waits to see what they are willing to do for “the least of these my brethren”. Some will choose the approval of men, and like the Savior said, “they shall have their reward”. We each bear the responsibility of being our brothers’ keeper in the future. We are so stricken within ourselves that we have had the spirit of a Pharisee in the past & we beg God to never let us slip into that spirit again, or allow Satan to delude us into complacency.
With deep love and great sorrow,
Calvin and Nadine Mead
ELDER & WIFE — Arkansas
Thu, Dec. 14, 2023
Dear Steve and Daniel,
I am 61 years old, recently retired, have professed for 50 years, and so far, have hosted the local meetings in my home for almost 30 years. My wife and I have had an “open home” for over 40 years.
I am going to share my thoughts, as you requested.
Yes, we are in turmoil. And we have now been in turmoil for at least 8-9 months, with very little acknowledgment or change for the better. However, the reason for the turmoil is not limited to “the way some sexual abuse cases among our friends were handled”. Far from it! The reason for the turmoil is because of the way that multiple things have been “handled” over many decades, and continue to be “handled” even until this present time. Below are some of my thoughts:
Sexual abuse and several other forms of abuse, victimizing both minors and adults, has been a problem in our midst for many years. It has existed within both the fellowship and the ministry. We now have undeniable reports of this occurring for decades, and now know that efforts were made to keep it from becoming common knowledge by way of denial, bullying, slandering/silencing of victims and their advocates, and even excommunication. All were tools used as means of controlling the flow of information and the narrative.
How many people within the fellowship, even to this day, have an accurate picture of what is and has been going on? Have people been truly and honestly informed? Or has there been a continuing effort to “keep people in the dark”? Can anyone deny that there has been total silence outside of those who “need to know”? And whose right or responsibility is it to choose who “needs to know”? Does everyone who “cannot be part of an organized religion or efforts to institutionalize our family fellowship” know that there are now close to 700 verified allegations of abusers, and thousands upon thousands of their victims? Do these same people have any idea how many individuals and families have left the fellowship, and that over 70 workers in N. America alone, have left the ministry, voluntarily and involuntarily, since this crisis began? Why are people being forced to get information from the Internet and word of mouth, instead of from elders and workers? How is this at all helpful in regard to any attempt at rebuilding shattered trust? I believe that it is simply the continuation of a long history of lack of transparency. In fact, I don’t like that term “lack of transparency”. Doesn’t “dishonesty” sound and fit better?
How did we arrive at this point of turmoil, loss of faith in our fellowship structure, and loss of faith in our ministry? I believe that it is due to a combination of several interrelated factors. I have intentionally kept my list short, so it is certainly not all inclusive:
Exclusivity of Form: Our form of meeting together and worship are the only true way to salvation, and anyone that is not a member of our fellowship is doomed to a lost eternity. Or at the very best, in veiled argument against this teaching of exclusivity: “We are not the judge, and our God is merciful”….how many times have we all heard this statement when people who “lost out” and then died are later discussed? Just recently, a dear little man and his elderly mother who meet in my home were told that by a sister worker that “we are now in the end times, and that people presently leaving the fellowship are part of the great “falling away”.
Exclusivity of Ministry: Our celibate(!), “homeless”, 2×2 ministry, which stays in the homes of fellowship members is the only one approved by God, and any other form of ministry is “false”. Every evangelist/minister/pastor/worker outside of our church is a false prophet/hireling. And the very proof of this, as I was taught, is because “this form of ministry has lasted for so long! Surely, if it wasn’t of God, it would have fallen apart by now”.
Worship of Tradition and Man: Only those who have been willing to dress a certain way, have a certain “appearance”, wear their hair a certain way, and attend Sunday fellowship meetings, Wednesday night “meeting”, convention, special meetings, and gospel meetings are true Children of God. Anything else or “less than this” is false, vain worship, evidence of the “wrong spirit”, and is not of God. And the ultimate “example” for women in our fellowship is the way that sister workers behave, wear their hair and dress. Because one can always tell what is on the inside by the outside appearance….especially among the women!!
Lack of Accountability and Transparency: We like to tell ourselves and others that we are not an organized religion. We have taken great pride in this. But in reality, we are VERY organized. We have a definite hierarchy, from “overseers of overseers” all the way down through senior workers, junior workers, male workers, female workers, elders, and rank and file fellowship members. To deny any of this is an outright lie. On the other hand, we have a totally opaque, secretive system of decision making, including decisions of doctrine, church form/structure, finances, and even unwritten “policy”. Everyone wants to deny accountability in any of this, especially as one moves upward in the hierarchy, but once again this is simply put, all lies. Our framework of “independent regional overseers” conveniently supports the system of lack of accountability, as well as continued plausible deniability in the future. We have thrived in darkness and lack of accountability, and it has finally, but inexorably, led to this tremendous upheaval. There is no doubt in my mind that we are an extremely organized religion, and have been so for many decades. Being unwilling to admit the truth does not alter the truth. If we are going to continue with denial of accountability, and the fact the we have dangerously lost our way, are we then, logically, going to blame everything wrong within our fellowship and ministry on God and the leading of his Holy Spirit?! God Forbid!
Of course, one hears arguments denying the “truth” of the above listed items, but can any of us, in our hearts, before God himself, deny that we were taught all of this either directly and/or indirectly, and that together, they have had a tremendous impact upon us individually and as a group/culture? And when one is born and raised in such a cultural milieu, how can our fellowship and the ministry that largely draws from it, not become a breeding ground for all types of sexual, mental, spiritual and other immoral forms of abuse? Of course, there are still a few “worldly” people who occasionally “find” our church, but who can argue that well over 95% of present day members were born and raised in this, and were culturally conditioned to have blind faith, without questioning anything?
After >8 months of countless personal visits, written letters, phone calls, being an advocate for victims in our fellowship, being an active member in several groups, and still witnessing the lukewarm, milk-toast, reluctant responses to any of this by the ministry, and then the same cues/responses being mimicked by most fellowship members, I no longer have much will to fight on, mostly alone, for what has become so obvious to me in hindsight. I am ashamed and grieved to realize that what I thought I had and much of what I believed were not as I imagined. I also do not think, even for one moment, that if we can come up with a written “policy” to ostensibly deal with any potential predators whom we might inadvertently “catch” in the future, that we have accomplished anything worthy of hope for long-term sustainability in our fellowship and ministry. History will simply repeat itself over and over again as long as God allows this present world to stand.
Several months ago, I decided to neither invite workers into my home, nor support any functions in which the ministry is involved, including conventions, special meetings, and gospel meetings. Unfortunately, my stance has not changed.
However, I continue to feel a deep love and spiritual responsibility for my local little fellowship meeting and its members. I will continue in my role as elder of our local meeting, but I no longer answer to anyone but God. Perhaps there is still a slim chance that if more of us, both fellowship members and workers, would stand up and shout from the rooftops that “enough is enough”, there could be impetus for meaningful progress forward. But I fear that most are comfortably complacent, and have great fear of addressing systemic problems openly and honestly.
I hope that you will find it appropriate to forward my complete letter to all in our tristate area, both workers and fellowship members. I firmly believe that if more people had exposure to the absolute truth of our predicament as a church, that more would be moved by the Spirit to step up and play a role in saving our fellowship. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is and always has been a false facade.
Kindest regards,
Sam Vallery
ELDER & WIFE — Missouri
Thu, Dec. 14, 2023
After reading Sam Vallery’s letter, I find that our own letter is largely a duplication of what he has already written. We agree that this present issue is a symptom of other issues. Even if the sexual abuse and child sex abuse can be dealt with, there are additional problems that must be addressed.
WINGS for Truth 
I agree with the safe fellowship post 100%. Some of us friends and workers in the year 2000 tried to educate, inform and warn the ministry and fellowship on the truth message board on CSA in the fellowship and ministry.
The ministry and friends didn’t think these issues were too serious to concern because this doesn’t happen within our ministry and fellowship.
God’s timing is perfect! God KNOWS and CARES what is going in His kingdom and try to fix it. Dean B. situation in 2022 opens the flood gate on CSA within the ministry and fellowship.
God, Christ and Holy Spirit are cleansing and purifying the ministry and the church to gat the Bride ready for the marriage of the Lamb.
Jesus said in Matthew 24 This gospel of Christ shall be preached to all nations then shall come the end of the Gentiles in hearing the message of salvation. He that ENDURE unto the END shall be SAVED.
Do not think the cult is “His kIngdom” one bit. Disgraced worker Don Reynolds is back in meetings after being banned last summer. This cult will never change, as sung so often in “gospel meeting”.
Great point about ol’ Don. Don was kicked out and banned from “meetings” and one comment at the time noted: “Our meeting is the one in NW Ohio which Don would normally attend. I can confirm that he has been told by the workers that he is not permitted to attend any meetings of any type. We support this directive.
We are also the couple that traveled to Ireland with Don. We only found out about Don’s child sex abuse last week when he texted us about it. (Don Reynolds is a self acknowledged child sex abusing worker). We are as shocked and disappointed as everyone is who knows Don”. Words are hollow without meaning. Of course, talk is easy, fast and cheap. Nothing compares to action and ” His kingdom”, as it is called by those in the cult, is not known for actually backing words up by actions. Instead, it’s always, ” I’d like to do better “… followed about by a bunch of words.
Bucky: Why are we surprised at this legal maneuver? Why does it cut so deep? In 1942 the name “Christian Conventions” became the Official recognized religious body in the U.S.. Address: George Walker:2350 East Susquehanna Ave. Philadelphis, Pennsylvana and others.
The professing attorneys eventually removed themselves from any association with or to 2×2’s because of the refusal of the “overseer’s to follow through with the Legal requirements requested by the government and put the attorney’s exposure to fraud: (Rittenhouse and Sweetland).
All the while, sheep are bleating to the world, we come straight from the 12 apostles, that is our Doctrine; OUR HEAD is God: We have no leader or structure or form, God is the head! Decades later we find our own fathers’s Card for Conscientious Objector. Yes , with the Name of our NO-NAME Religion and the ADDRESS of our Head Guarters.
Now if that is not enough, it is no longer the Kingdom Gospel straight from the 12 Apostles and follow Jesus; it is The Body; with the New Testament Ministry. NOW a big change from that! Not one Body; we are a MONOLITHIC.
Why!
Is it because NOW; the information is out that the Doctrine of the 2×2’s who follow the 12: are unable to follow the 12’s Doctrine OF ALL BELIEVERS: Acts 2:42 – :45
“Sold All” and continuing Daily(Moses ‘ordinance’ was 3 times a day) “in the Temple” – :46.
AND that is NOT ALL: The3 very Chosen sent 12 apostles went into their Temple Luke 24: 53; Acts 3:1 at hour of prayer and Acts 5:42. AND NOW to escape, yes, with Legal Advice again, any responsibility for the Sin and heinous Criminal Responsibility to the healing and hope of any future life for victims, the spots on devil change again.
The Apple does NOT fall far from the TREE!
I am SO SO VERY supportive of what I see happening here… a firm dignified setting of YOUR boundaries. Overseers are used to a culture where only THEY get to set boundaries, and that situation has led to where the fellowship is today. Be prepared for them to continue to resist. Wishing you all of the very best.
I applaud this effort, and would hope we could arrive at a point where we would have a consistent approach across the entire country and world.
Some people have spoken quite forcefully against any written policy, or even any action taken or initiated by anyone other than the ministry. I admit that I have had many of the same concerns in the past, but have arrived at a different conclusion in the past months.
No reasonable person would want a policy simply for policy’s sake. The simplicity of our fellowship can be a beautiful thing that allows us to more fully focus on the things that matter most.
1. We all would love for each person to be wholly guided by the Spirit, to simply do the right thing all the time, with no abuse ever occurring.
2. We all would love for every person in places of authority to unequivocally step forward to rectify wrongs, and take concrete and transparent steps to prevent future tragedies with both Scripture and common sense as the guideposts.
3. We all would love to return back to a state of trust being our default mode.
The reality, however, is that trust *has* been broken repeatedly, and *plenty* of footdragging and resistance on the part of some of the ministry has further eroded that trust. Just as is the case with something like infidelity or embezzlement, trust is not restored overnight, and the ministry should not be shocked by people’s increasingly “noisy” reactions.
In the absence of clear Godly leadership, *every* person is within bounds (and arguably is morally obligated) to take a stand.
Policies are NOT replacing God’s guidance. Well thought out policies simply communicate clear expectations for future conduct, help nip (some, not all) future abuse in the bud, and provide a roadmap for how to handle future situations and allegations in a Godly manner.
It is very sad to see in the below copied words from the folk at Clever convention that Craig made it very clear there will never be a world wide policy because as he explains, to my horror, that if there was a world wide policy then that would leave the ministry open to a legal law suit. Reading his words below we can see this advice was legal advice as the wording is the words of a lawyer. So many red flags here. First they care more about money than they do victims. Secondly, what MONEY!!!! This is the homeless ministry that followed Jesus????? Can we envision Jesus getting a lawyer to help him not be financially liable for all his money because of wide spread sexual abuse amongst them???? So they get legal advice telling them; say that we are not a world wide fellowship let’s say we are regional so no one can sue us and take all our money. How much MONEY are we talking about here.
READ below what the owners of the convention grounds were told by Craig.
The priorities of the ministry were made clear to us when Craig visited with us on Aug. 8, shortly after the Overseers Meeting in Seneca, IL. When we asked him if the Overseers would pass a universal policy for creating a safer fellowship, he shared with us what their real concern was.
Here is a transcript of him describing the Overseers’ consensus, during that conversation with us:
“One of the issues, and this is another way of looking at it… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.
We couldn’t have said it any better – THANK YOU.
Serious question here that I’ve been mulling over quite a lot the past few days:
“…room for regional differences…”
Do people feel that policy may need to look slightly different in different areas, even if key elements are kept consistent across the whole US (and ideally, the world)? Parts of rural Wyoming with a sparse population of older folks will have different needs than the core of Seattle, for example, and the nitty gritty details of policy would seem to have to reflect that reality.
There also is the very real issue of how one enforces said policies in such diverse circumstances.
Again, this question is from someone who is now convinced some level of uniform policy is needed.
mnpolymath talks of the “diversity” as for the reason the Overseers are having the “fellowship” splitting up into a bunch of different fellowships. The very reason is MONEY.
The Overseers said, ” we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in LEGAL protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.
So, there’s that thought that we don’t want to become identified as one universal fellowship even though we have a lot in common; there is room for regional differences.
It’s one of the reasons we haven’t been sued in the sense because there’s no Central MONEY and so there’s no way to identify some kind of incentive.”
IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!
Also, when did Jesus ever say, “this way I am asking for you to live varies on the region you are from”. Jesus was and is the same throughout the World. Christian people are from Christ and their beliefs and practices are not swayed by money.
I’ve been mulling over your very good question for a few days now, too.
My thoughts keep coming back to the answer, that no there really doesn’t need to be differences for certain areas. Just because there’s a bunch of elderly people currently in one specific area, doesn’t mean it will always be that way. Seattle used to have 23 Sunday Morning Meetings…now, I don’t know if there’s even 12? Every area ebbs and flows with people moving around.
We do know for certain that there are predators everywhere we go (ie: grocery stores, bowling alley’s, library, kids ball games, theaters, parks, concert halls, public transportation of all kinds, every church/temple/sanctuary/fellowship, etc.).
If you were to pull up your state’s sexual predator website, I’m guessing there’s more than you would ever imagine…including IN your neighborhood.
But, the key elements of what lines need to be drawn for a safe fellowship should be applied everywhere.
Liesel & Gaby are right on, when it comes to the things that need to be addressed.
I know, at this time, some countries still don’t have any laws addressing the molesting/rape of another human being. That’s exactly why some of these men have chosen THOSE countries to “preach” in!! But, God does have laws against it! If the Spirit of God were with these people, they COULDN’T do what they are doing!
We are to be following the teachings of Jesus (not Barry Barkely or Craig Winquist, or any other human’s opinions or ideas…worker or not)
Some worry that “we aren’t showing forgiveness” by not allowing them to come back in to the fellowship.
What people do not seem to understand, is that once a predator moves from touching through clothing or just exposing themselves to another, or taking pictures up a skirt…to actual physical contact – there has never been a case (professing or not) where someone has been able to stop – because it’s THAT addicting. As soon as they are released from prison, councelling, and even chemical castration…with affirmations that they are no longer a threat…they get released, and first stop (on their way to their new housing) at a restaurant, park, grocery store, etc…they immediately zoom in on their next victim and start grooming the adults and relatives of that victim (whether it’s another adult or a child), and they take their time, so that no one would believe that they have gone back to that behavior, and they cry: the victim is just looking for attention. The reason being, they have lost all conscience and can not be rehabilitated because they have no capacity of being honest. They are pathological liars and are the best in the world! They can turn on tears and what appears to be humility at will (it’s all fake), and yet, you address their “issue” and watch how fast their demeanor turns to outright rage!
I just don’t think the heads of the hierarchy care enough that they would actually say “enough”. I appreciate Darryl Doland’s current stance “zero tolerance”, but why are the others who have chosen to be elevated so resistant to doing what’s right? Are they involved as a predator too? Are they seeking “numbers” and worried that there will only be X number of people left in their state who are chosing to attend meetings? Are they afraid that they will lose their status, because let’s be honest, if they were following the scriptures…they wouldn’t be choosing to be elevated above anyone else on the staff! Jesus told HIS ministry, that no one was to be above another.
It’s just mind boggling that they are CHOOSING to be so ignorant and resistant.
Another Elder, Did You Read the DATE of that conversation? Everyone is gently lulled to la, la land. Our Convention is coming-up! Then we will learn what is really happening in God’s Kingdom, God’s only One True Way!
Well, August 8th conversation; was not revealed. Neither was the BIG decision which was made prior – how many weeks – prior to even before the Overseers’ Mtg. in Seneca . Did those WHO host Seneca Conv., know about this when revealing they too had been molested, but are all better NOW??? How many Conv. hosters knew this “monolithic” decision had been PUT-INTO PLACE and continued to Host the ‘cult’; while the Overseers had just Made a Legal Decision to protect their Money-Cow?!
Do Not cover your eyes: this decision was made to stomp on the ‘victims’ ONE MORE TIME; while thumbing their Nose at God’s Laws and our Nation’s Laws???
AND Craig has been pretending to stand-up for the VICTIMS and led all to believe His Overseership of three states; stands with WINGS and supports the Victims.
All Elders who feel they can shepherd their “fellowship”, alone; Do all a favor and study word for word with them what God ‘actually’ recorded for our learning! Take-out a pen and paper and actually write down When; to Who; What; Where; and Why. Yes, deep study.
Maybe begin with the 12 ‘apostles ministry’ in Acts 1′ – through Acts 12; because THAT is our example from the very beginning!
That is exactly where 2×2’s began. A homeless ministry and a humble church in a humble HOME made without hands.(while hiding CSA & SA)
Then go back to the 4 Gospels and read what Jesus in His Flesh actually preached and what Jesus actually was preparing his 12 chosen apostle to be, do and preach.
All the while; keep in mind; while the time, effort, skill and deep concern of YOU were looking for solutions, healing and a written policy: YOUR LEADERS HAD A POLICY IN PLACE to thwart your every effort in your deep concern for victims.
henoffour; Your reasoning about there being no hierarchy is not correct. Peter was definitely the leader. They were told to all be servants. Later James was definitely the spokesman as in Acts 15 and Acts 21.
However, It is quite correct that the 12 were to follow Jesus in his fleshly ministry as Jesus preached the Law and the prophets to his nation of Israel.
God turned from that Nation that worshipped idols and sacrificed their children to their idols. Yes, God was silent to them for 400 years. Then Jesus came to bring that Nation back to God. As Jesus taught his disciples, they asked WHO is the greatest? There was no doubt! Matthew 18: You must become as a ‘little child’ OR YOU SHALL NOT enter God’s promised Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Matthew 18:6 – :11 is the very requirement OF Jesus for the CSA and CA: Drowned in the deepest sea; and Cut it off. Yes, that is what you said because they will not change. Neither the Overseers or the criminals.
AND Matthew 18:10 Jesus commandment and standard should be the exact NOW as THEN.
THAT is exactly what WINGS is all about! Healing the wounded and giving-all-doubt concerning the Overseers THAT THEY will fess-up and have a heart and mind as Jesus’ heart and mind: yes, exactly what they preach and not as they do.
That is what tears at our heart and mind as we pray for each and every destroyed little soul.
And true to their proven actions; they continue to mock and destroy each victim and member WHO HAS trusted and worshipped them.
This Safe Fellowship Documents removes all doubt of their twisted and demented determination to refuse any and all efforts to help any victims and or families AND change themselves.
Thank you all for your stance, and I agree 100%. Nothing is going to change if we choose to just keep our heads down with hopes that things will be taken care of, and we can just go on serving blissfully unaware. Therein creating the perfect breeding ground for more of what we’ve just been shocked and horrified with.
As for my household. We will continue to support the workers, we will give more, we will continue to support them with a car etc….
This is our choice. As a victim and survivor I do not blame the current overseers. Things have changed, and they are better. So as for my household we will continue. We all make our choices and to those who have withdrawn thank you for the privilege of letting us do a little more.
I still support the workers who are doing the right thing. Those who don’t agree with what’s right, aren’t welcome.
Our household will and still are serving God.
Where has anything changed with the Overseers? To my knowledge Washington State and possibly Oregon are the only states that have banned all Predators from meetings. But, for how long? It should be “forever”, but I’m not so certain that that’s what is going to take place. You are aware that every overseer has been aware of abuse and done nothing in the past, right? Now that they understand they can be charged with a Felony…changes are happening, BECAUSE of us who are holding their feet to the fire.
Just recently I learned that our “problem worker” is going to be shipped off to another country…so, how have things really changed? What’s really better? What about the families in that country? Did you know it’s actually against the law for them to allow a predator to be IN a meeting anywhere, without giving prior knowledge so families can protect their children, and if the meeting is in a home, the Elder can be charged too if THEY do not announce that they are harboring a criminal Sexual Assault predator prior to allowing one into their home? Elders are considered part of the Clergy. Continue in your misguided bliss, but we don’t need arrogence on here. We need real change that will protect the victim-survivors from now until the end of time.
Alaska has banned all predators also.
@Deanna Thank you. Wasn’t sure if they had actually gotten around to complete removal of one being that I was waiting to hear on. This is wonderful news!
My message to BE HOLDER: I choose to post my comment to you with my full name: David W. Cronk, Torrington, Wyoming. Our “handling” came from the famous scott rauscher, robert corfield, and crew under supervision of none other than dean bruer, 6 oclock, Feb 7, 2018. Attended by carolyn jacobson who arranged the request for the meal, with orlinda williams her companion. My message to you is this: Warren Jeoffs still retains a faithful following, even as he serves three life terms in a federal prison for CHILD SEX ASSAULT.
Beholder, Jesus’s gaze always, always went to the sick, the lame, the sinful, the broken. If we have the heart of compassion that Jesus had, we will spend ourselves caring for the needy, like He did. In fact, Jesus tells us that doing this very thing will determine our eternal destiny. (Matthew 25).
The needy the broken….none of those leaving are thus. Hard harted and stiffed necked I would say.
Be holder says, “The needy the broken….none of those leaving are thus. Hard harted and stiffed necked I would say.”
Your statement is extremely judgmental and hard-hearted. How many of those who have left do you know personally? What is it that gives you the right to condemn another person for ANY reason? Every post I have ever seen from you is hard-hearted. You have no idea what is in another person’s heart. You have no idea what other people are going through.
Take a good long look in the mirror, and keep your hard-hearted judgments to yourself.
@Beholder I’m not sure what is pushing you to behave in such an unchristlike manner, but the Bible is very clear on “offending one of these little ones” (meaning HIS children), and I’m sure you aren’t judging whether anyone on this site is or isn’t. Right? You make statements that are sword sharp and filled with anger towards those who have been hurt, and who have been trying for months and months (or years) to get ignorant men to wake up to the sin that is rampant under their noses, and did you even consider that their refusal to DO the right thing, is because they are participants? I knew there was something wrong with our old overseer for years…couldn’t figure out why he wouldn’t stand for Christ and His teachings…well, well…he was too busy diddling with little girls to give a hoot as to what Jesus teachings actually are!! Some acted all shocked and some even said, “the children are lying” – He has admitted to every one that’s come forward, and since the average is 66% that won’t ever come forward…he’s had a lot of victims!! (no, I’m not talking about “creepy dean”). I am going to guess here, but it seems you don’t really have a good picture of what’s been going on since creepy dean got caught. I’ll also go out on a limb here and say, had the authorities not been given creepy deans lap-top, and THEY were going to publish about what he was up to…the good ol overseer of the state of Oregon wouldn’t have said a word! Because he’s confiding in the likes of Richard DenHerder…who doesn’t think it’s wrong to just shift the diddlers/rapists off onto other unsuspecting states or countries, where they are free to rape and pillage the women and children in their new “pasture” they’ve been put out to. You know when this came up in the Catholic church a few years back, did you feel “well, what do you expect in a false religion?” Think about that statement, because I heard more than one person say something stupid like that when it happened. I’m sure the almost 700 men with their names on the pervert list (a list of those who pretended to be a part of our faith by hiding in the ministry and as Elders) were watching that news break, and I wonder what was going through their minds?? Oh, God will protect me from being outed? None of MY victims will come forward? God said, “Nothing will be hid”…what are YOU hiding?
BE HOLDER Your choice is your choice and I find no fault in that. I am not a victim of any kind. I do have a question or two for you. I grew up in a small two bedroom, one bath house with my parents and a brother. The workers would come and my brother and I gave up our bedroom. My first question would be, how many workers today would go to a two bedroom house and stay for a few nights? Having to share a bedroom.. Not many. Where I grew up most of the house’s were small like ours. Todays overseers and workers would not make it. Most would like their own bedrooms. D Brewer had a wad of cash on him. There are workers (overseers) that carry a wad of cash in a pouch or wallet with a GPS tracker on it in case they loose in or leave it somewhere. A lot of them have $300 smart watches, laptops, tablets, credit cards, etc. I have none of these things of connivence. I also know that in California some workers a driving around with a 2-3 year old car. Changed every 2-3 years. We have a car that is 6 years old.
Not all so called overseers are the same. Some have changed, yes. ASK anyone from California about their present overseer getting rid of two workers recently one in particular because he felt she was too old. Another one because it was said no one wanted to be with her. That last example is a lie because it has been looked into.
I guess my last question. Would Jesus have approved of all this money and stupid actions?
BeHolder- you have expressed my sentiments more eloquently than I could!
This is why God has to raise up new breed of overseers in every generation who can keep up, adhere with the NEW CSA laws and so on.
The older generation of overseers don’t like to change their old ways of thinking and doing things so, they can run into many problems with the laws and make a big mess for God’s people and their children.
Things will improve in the coming days, God is still on the throne. The New Testament ministry and Sunday morning fellowship/worship establish by God the Father, Christ the Lord God our Savior and Holy Spirit. The workers, the friends, exes and non-believers can’t destroy it.
Jesus said to the apostles in Matthew 18 Upon this ROCK! I will built my Church and the gates of HELL shall NOT destroy it.
” The New Testament ministry and Sunday morning fellowship/worship…”
Are Christians different from “fellowship”? Sunday morning fellowship? The New Testament ministry? What about Jesus? Isn’t He bigger than the ministry? What about Monday morning, or Friday night, or Saturday afternoon? Shouldn’t God be worshipped then, too? Fellowship is a closed group tied to a ” ministry”. Christian people are everywhere, worldwide, and very open. Christians worship in their place, mind and share their faith continually. It’s very freeing to be a Christian. Fellowship is concerned that what they have may be destroyed. Christians know what they have is infinite and is forever. Christians worship Jesus.
“The older generation of overseers don’t like to change their old ways of thinking and doing things so, they can run into many problems with the laws and make a big mess for God’s people and their children”.
If the older generation of overseers were right, why would they need to change their ” old ways”? If the old generation of overseers were not right, why would you have followed them for so much of your life? How do YOU determine who is God’s people? Isn’t that up to God?
The older generation of overseers were NOT right in handling CSA and sexual assault of sister workers within the ministry.
I appreciate what Paul wrote “Follow me as I follow Christ!” I appreciate and respect the workers, the church elders, and the friends who follow Jesus New Testament ministry and Sunday morning worship/fellowship.
My Faith, Trust, and Salvation is in Jesus and in Him ONLY and His teachings who I follow and Obey. I Follow the workers, the church elders, the friends who follow Jesus New Testament ministry and His teachings.
Jesus Christ is the same as yesterday, today and forever my main focus is on Jesus first! NOT the workers then Jesus, that is like putting the cart before the horse and that is NOT a good thing to do.
The workers are humans and they make mistakes but NOT Christ Jesus because He is God like unto God the Father.
God’s people are they who follow Jesus Christ New Testament ministry and His teachings in the gospels. I hope this clarify some of your good questions. Feel free to ask any question, Thanks.
Nathan- on a different topic, I remember you were kicked of Connected and Concerned Friends for some weird reason.
Well they kicked me off aswell.I posted a post saying that homosexuality is a sin as other sins, and needs to be repented of.I said a Christian would not continue in a homosexual relationship, and I said that God is not a God of confusion.So the moderators removed my posts and said this is a sensitive issue and if I reframe my post I could repost it.They also said I make it a fact that it is a sin but it’s only my opinion and that my posts were blanket statements. The lady moderator said that if Hod Allen says God condones his homosexual relationship, who gives anyone the right to say it’s not true.Anycase so I reposted quoting only verses from the Bible, I didn’t add anything from myself, so then they kicked me of! So CCF condones homosexual relationships and don’t allow free speech.Which means the moderators on CCF can’t be truely Christians.
No “true Christian” will judge the salvation status of others. That is right in the biblical red letters and surely I don’t have to quote it. There is nothing confusing about it.
Time to look in the mirror Louise.
Nathan; Again we are surprised at the mis-quote of Paul’s Words.
It does NOT say ‘follow me as I follow Christ’.
Be ye followers of me, even as I also AM of Christ.
Paul explains they are to follow Paul; as Paul IS of Christ!
Paul’s complete being – his complete life is of and in Christ.
Jesus in His flesh was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Math 10:5, :6 and Jesus’ very words: Math.15:24
We ask HOW can one follow Christ? Can one do Luke 24:51 or Acts 1:9?
In the absence of clear Godly leadership; everyone IS within bounds and should BE Morally and physically outraged and clearly express it!
Everyone must examine God’s Word deeply and exactly as that Word is the measure by which we will be examined, eternally.
Hi Louise,
I made some good friends on that CCF site. The moderators are really weird, they have their own Agenda, a mixed up bunch for sure. If you cross or go against the moderators belief then they kick people out without warning. One second then you are gone forever!
They didn’t give me time to say good bye so I have no way of contact one of the friends from Guam on that list. The other friend was a grand daughter of Leo Stancliff, whom professed through.
Good to see you posting on here, Louise.👍
It may be helpful to read theological text about homosexuality. The Bible is a community of voices (meant to be understood metaphorically, historically, and as a sacred text). While it is inspired by God, it was written by humans so historical and cultural relevance is important as well as remembering that they are writing from their own perspective and we are interpreting from our perspective. History of the Bible compilation is also helpful. Authors John Barton, Zach Hunt, and Marcus Borg are very knowledgeable. truth has taught us all much dogma but little theology.
Louise, if you understood the historical and cultural background of biblical writings, you would know that to all bible writers, there were no homosexuals, only heterosexuals who were deviant. In fact, a lot of extremist Christians still think that, hence the hate against a significant proportion of our neighbors. Your flagrant condemnation against homosexuals is not good for your soul….hatred and judgmentalism on false premises never is.
Don’t judge.
Love your neighbor.
Support the oppressed.
Stop playing god.
This isn’t rocket science.
Wow…Ya I left that site Too. Whitney Nelson is condescending ….Big Ego. Not what we are looking for in turning over a new leaf for the Future. Pretty Sick.
Beautiful Words + exactly How I See It Too, Ending Quickly. Thank you to Our Living Loving God. He is Sick And Tired Of the Evil in Our Midst. False Doctrine breeds Lies , and it stems from the Top Down. It is Evil + will Be Destroyed. Prob in 2024.
This letter states, “our fellowship” over and over. This new term, “our fellowship”, has already been taken by another ” worldly church “, and it also sounds so “earthly” and selfish. Like a child holding a toy and saying, “it’s mine”. ” OUR fellowship ” sounds exclusionary. Christ is for everyone. Why try to make this religion like it’s THE religion? Like it is mine and you can’t have it, unless you join us! Exclusivity is the problem and it is why so many people have been allowed to get away with so much horrific deviate sexual behaviors,spiritual abuses, and the general pressure to conform to group think.
“Since “our fellowship” is exclusionary, and “the way” (as it was formally known), it must be okay for sexual assaults to happen”. This letter is leading to nowhere new. People agreeing with the premise of, “our fellowship”, still think they have the only group that is going to save them. That is a cult and is not following Christ, or being simply, a Christian. Instead of saying, ” our fellowship ” repeatedly, why doesn’t this letter simply address how it is to be a Christian? The answer: this, “our fellowship”, is not Christian.
It may be helpful to have more exact language when discussing the truth than “our fellowship”. The truth is a fundamentalist and legalistic sect patterned about the limited commission rather than the great commission (Matt 28). It has confused the distinction of apostles and disciples.
Fundamentalist/extremist groups are formed in response to society progressions and often result in extreme and harmful behaviors and traditions. This is evident in the truth and other Christian and nonChristian religious groups. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people.
To our fellowship…
You can think this/ours Jesus Christ New Testament ministry is a Cult all you like, this is NOTHING new at all. The Pharisees and non-believers in Jesus days, they call our Lord God Jesus the prince of the devil. In the book of Acts, the unbelievers call Jesus Truth and way heresy or of the devil and try to destroy it and they couldn’t because the founders are God the Father and the Lord God Christ Jesus themselves!
Remember the wise words of Gamaliel said to the Pharisees in trying to kill the apostles in Acts 5:33-41 Let these apostles go! For if their work, activity and purpose are of humans origin it will come to nothing/fail. But if it be from God you will NOT be able to overthrow it, you ONLY to find yourselves against God.
Paul the apostle learned the hard way when he tried to destroy Jesus truth and way he became one of the most gifted apostles in the New Testament. He wrote later to the enemies and followers of Jesus, “For we CAN’T do NOTHING against the Truth but for the truth. “
God KNOWS and ALLOWS things happen to His ministry and Church, He is bringing the dross and impurity out of our lives to the surface so we can change and be more like Jesus in words and deeds.
Nathan, I’m curious, you refer to God’s Son as “Lord God Christ Jesus”, do you believe Jesus IS God’s Son, or that God came to the earth as Jesus? I’m asking because this difference is something I have noticed over time and is even taught by workers. You do know that even in America, the ministry doesn’t even agree on Jesus teachings, right? (I am talking about the fellowship of God’s people – their ministry). The workers on the left coast (from Alaska down to Mexico) believe and stand by what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage, because Jesus was given that message from God. The workers on the “Right coast” (as the Eastern seaboard folks like to semi-joke about them being the “Right Ones”) DO NOT believe nor stand by Jesus teachings on that subject, thus are happily lying to those who wish to change out spouses like we take out the garbage. Their thinking is, “it’s better to err on the side of mercy”…mercy isn’t lying to people, mercy is telling the truth in love for their souls. Sexually harming children and women both inside and outside the ministry is an abomination to God, and it doesn’t matter how eloquent your speaking is from the platform or in meetings, nor how sweet you seem…you can not fool the God of Heaven. He has opened these floodgates in a way that NO ONE could deny any of it exists, and yet there’s still people trying. Mind blowing!!
I DO agree that there’s only one way to get to Heaven. Jesus said, “follow me”, and Paul brought that message to the rest of the world (to follow Jesus). Paul taught as he was looking to Jesus, which is what anyone in the ministry should be doing today. So, when Barry B, Richard DenHerder, Craig Winquist, and other co-conspiritors won’t stand for the right, it’s because they are not following him in their daily lives…and have something on their conscience that prohibits them from outing another because they don’t want to be outed!
Is the west (left) always right, NOPE! Kent Williston isn’t dealing with things in a Christlike way in California…people are being FORCED to fistbump predators (it’s been demanded they interact in a kind way). Kent seems to be doing the same thing in CA that got him Kicked off the staff in British Columbia…he’s a tyrannt. Did you know there’s not one place in the Bible that Jesus told the ministry “Y’all cast ‘lots’ and choose up a mighty one to follow once I’m gone” ? But, Matthew 18 makes it VERY clear we are not to have overseers…when Overseers are talked about in the New Testament, did you know it was the ELDERS that were being referred to? All these people that wrote this letter are doing, is trying to get things set right, that are SO WRONG within our ministry. Did you know that a large number in our ministry agree with Liesel and Gaby? Just not the ones who are hiding something.
In response to “Don Reynolds is Back:” you quoted the comment we posted here on June 19, 2023. The directive given to Don at that time has not changed. He has not attended the meeting in our home since that date and will not be attending in the future.
The point is, sexual predator workers Don Reynolds, Gilbert Smith and the long list of prev workers goes on that still attend meetings whether in person or by phone. Even self acknowledged sexual predators are welcome in the “fellowship” and that won’t change.
This is how the cult works – shuffles peds and perps from country to country, state to state, and meeting to meeting.
Had a question to any that may be in the know – why is it ok for Don to attend meeting in Indiana but not Ohio? Just trying to figure out the logic. Is it that the cult is now regional, as Winquist reportedly stated above? Maybe the overseers of Ohio and Indiana can explain.
Don’t fence me in says, “Just trying to figure out the logic” regarding why known sex molesters are allowed in meetings in one area and not another. Fences, please don’t even start to attempt to figure out the logic. It will drive you crazy! That’s why there are so many meetings, so people don’t have time for logic. William Irvine knew that much: “Keep ’em busy and they won’t know I’m a womanizer”.
Thinking about this last night and reading in 2 Kings 10 this AM, there are tolerant (woke for the younger generation) and intolerant meetings. Looking back over the decades of attending cult meetings in various States, I experienced some very warm welcoming elders, and others that were real tyrants. Regardless, God’s standards cannot be comprised. Just food for thought for those in Ohio an Indiana and elsewhere in the world where this sort of thing is happening. Please note that I am not saying if those in Ohio or Indiana are right or wrong, but God knows and that is all that matters.
@Don’t Fence Me In – it is curious why this happens in many types of instances, not just the subject of pedophiles. But, the right answer is, it’s not okay for ANY predator to be attending ANYWHERE that children or women are present. One of the things I have learned from our state Sheriff is: “think of it this way, IF these men EVER truly want to start doing what is right, which is to never re-offend, THEY would choose to NEVER AGAIN put themselves where their targeted victims are.” But, Don is looking for new victims – which every predator is, when they attend a meeting. They are never there for a Spiritual purpose.
Thank you, Tom & Debi for keeping him out of your home, but be vigilant…some likely haven’t been outed yet. New ones will come along. It’s just what happens when people aren’t seeking God’s help every day.
Is the speaker here is Craig Winquist?
“One of the issues, and this is another way of looking at it… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.
So, there’s that thought that we don’t want to become identified as one universal fellowship even though we have a lot in common; there is room for regional differences.
It’s one of the reasons we haven’t been sued in the sense because there’s no Central money, and so there’s no way to identify some kind of incentive.”
I had some hope that CraigW was an enlightened overseer. This is a roadmap to escaping responsibility. Let’s make this really simple. If you have done something that makes you vulnerable to a civil (or criminal) lawsuit, the correct response is to own up to it and make it right. Craig is revealing how the church system is structured to avoid taking responsibility for evil activities. Many people have suspected this, but Craig says the quiet part out loud. Where is the moral clarity with this ministry? If Craig doesn’t have it, most of them don’t.
Note: I am a participating member with a huge tolerance level. That level is getting breached here.
“I had some hope that Craig W was an enlightened overseer. This is a roadmap to escaping responsibility. Let’s make this really simple. If you have done something that makes you vulnerable to a civil (or criminal) lawsuit, the correct response is to own up to it and make it right. Craig is revealing how the church system is structured to avoid taking responsibility for evil activities”.
This is NOT “Jesus Christ New Testament ministry”. This is a cups and balls magic act ministry made up by con man William Irvine. Mark Twain said, ” It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled “.
You could ask for your money back and give it to survivors.
YES!!! We did! Got our money back and promptly sent it to AFTT.
@dankarnelson Hey, would you please email me at henoffour@gmail.com I just have a quick question.
Wathman I have to agree; So many red flags in what Craig said in this post; CLEVER CONVENTION GROUND OWNERS & PARENTS OF A VICTIM-SURVIVOR — Missouri
Wed, Dec. 13, 2023
Firstly, they care more about money than they do victims. They obviously hired a lawyer for this statement as last I looked I don’t see any advise given in the bible to make sure we call ourselves a regional group. In fact i know that i have heard over and over again the spirit is the same all over the world no matter where we take this gospel it yields the same results.
Craig states (“One of the issues, and this is another way of looking at it… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.)
Monolithic is a nice big word.
Secondly, what MONEY!!!! This is the homeless ministry that followed Jesus????? Can we envision Jesus getting a lawyer to help him not be financially liable for all his money because of widespread sexual abuse amongst them???? So, they get legal advice telling them; say that we are not a worldwide Monolithic fellowship let’s say we are regional so no one can sue us and take all our money. How much MONEY are we talking about here.
Sue…with all the years of the elderly couples who didn’t have children, or they chose to donate a portion of their wealth…just in our state their has to be over a million dollars sitting in various accounts – how or where I don’t completely understand it, but every state has their own accounts, generally managed by some individual (not necessarily by one in the ministry). Interestingly, over the past maybe 40 years? It’s been asked of the workers to all sign up for medicaid so they would have some type of health insurance. They have to send in a tax return, but because no one donation puts them over a threshold, they can claim no income.
I don’t think the donators thought their money was going to be hoarded and not used for the ministry throughout the world…instead it’s sitting in an account, to pay for plane tickets, hotels, car rentals, etc. When I was a child the workers would come with ONE metal suitcase, and ONE hang up bag…and they didn’t have stuff stashed like a squirrel in someone else’s home, their trunks and backseats of vehicles packed to the point of damaging the locks on the vehicles!! So, to me it just screams “I don’t have faith!” Jesus told them to “go in faith” and they weren’t to take a bunch of stuff with them…they come with quilting, with bicycles, with Spring/Summer/Fall/Winter clothes, and brands of clothings we could never afford! Am I jealous, no. We are supposed to dress modestly, and like one of my friends who visited a Gospel Meeting with me one time said, “Oh, I couldn’t afford to belong to this religion, your minister is wearing a sweater that she paid more for than I did my whole wardrobe!” Not good. So, change on many levels needs to be made. I love having fellowship with those who are truly following Jesus, and I know Liesel and Gaby, and love them and all their hard work, because they truly love and care about the wellbeing of those in this faith.
“How much MONEY are we talking about here”? Dividing up ” the way” to avoid sexual assaults law suits, that would target a central fund, if there was allowed to be one. surej , you asked the MONEY question and rest assured, there is a lot of money in the Overseers honey pot.
Instead of focusing on what the workers are doing, focus instead on: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” —John 1:14. Jesus is the only One worthy of our focus. Jesus is the reason to celebrate and have joy, not humans who are concerned about the dollars. Leave that thinking and those people in your rear view mirror. Merry Christmas!
“You can think this/ours Jesus Christ New Testament ministry is a Cult all you like, this is NOTHING new at all”. Other than that this is a religious group founded about 1897 by Scotsman William Irvine, exhibit many marks of a cult, including their denial of core Christian doctrine, their insistence that they alone have “the truth,” and their teaching that salvation depends upon being faithful to their leaders.
“The workers are humans and they make mistakes….God’s people are they who follow Jesus Christ New Testament ministry”. Why follow workers who ” are human and make mistakes”, and not just simply follow Jesus Christ and be a Christian? Workers began with William Irvine. How are they New Testament ministry? They didn’t begin with Christ. How will they end with Christ?
You ask a good question. Why follow imperfect humans instead of just following Jesus. I will ask you a question. Can you follow Jesus and not do what He asks you to do? When Jesus sent out the 70, He told His disciples that the harvest is great but the laborers are few, pray that the Lord of the harvest will send laborers into His harvest field.
Shortly after they were first called Christians at Antioch the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. Was it wrong for those who heard the gospel thro Barnabua and Paul to be thankful for their 2×2 ministry that helped them to learn about Jesus. This was a long time before WI.
Don’t think Paul and Barnabas were molesting children, abusing each other, or ignoring criminal actions or gross sin.
@Doreen that’s maybe true, but they weren’t perfect either. They were men, just like the men of today, and just like David sinned, Abraham sinned…since humans were created (Adam was going around whining that he “didn’t have a mate”) men have been doing things they shouldn’t (and so have women). But, God STILL uses both to bring HIS plan and will to fruition.
Watchman- if the moderators are truely Christians they would not condone homosexual relationships that God clearly condemns in the Bible, period, no iffs or butts, cant struddle the fence on that one, it is made clear in the Bible.
Watchman- true, I should not have said the moderators on CCF are not real Christians, I apologize for that.
I will rephrase.The moderators on CCF condones homosexual relationships, which is contrary to Christian teachings.
Delicious satire; to say this the same week the leader of the largest Christian religion proclaims the exact opposite.
I wish you well as you try to restructure the fellowship and become your own entity. Over the last 8 years those in the ministry have expressed that there is no unity within the ministry and they have no unity with the fellowship. There have been those in the past that have tried break away. With that step comes the responsibility of the elders to be far more active.
It lasts for a very short time and people wanted to go back to the bondage of the ministry. i know that if your heart is true and your purpose is true- God will be there for you.
We will continue to pray for those who love our heavenly Father and Savior Jesus Christ.
When I get in the way of my relationship with God- PSALM 51 helps to set my course and purpose true.
Cult and Cult instead of Christian: Amen!
Thanks for this post and I applaud the backbone of those responsible for putting meaningful policy (backed up by action) into place. This particular excerpt from the above letter from Lecil and Gaby Townsend is worth highlighting:
The priorities of the ministry were made clear to us when Craig visited with us on Aug. 8, shortly after the Overseers Meeting in Seneca, IL. When we asked him if the Overseers would pass a universal policy for creating a safer fellowship, he shared with us what their real concern was.
Here is a transcript of him describing the Overseers’ consensus, during that conversation with us:
“One of the issues, and this is another way of looking at it… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.
So, there’s that thought that we don’t want to become identified as one universal fellowship even though we have a lot in common; there is room for regional differences.
It’s one of the reasons we haven’t been sued in the sense because there’s no Central money, and so there’s no way to identify some kind of incentive.”
That thought “we don’t want to be identified as one universal group”😳
When we stand before the God of heaven, we will be glad to be known as one universal group “ part of the body of Christ, part of the bride.
There will be no fear of being sued.
For those who don’t want to identify with the body of Christ, because they were afraid of being sued, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation…. Hebrews 10 v 27,
I am appalled by the thinking of overseers, and those who support them in that kind of thinking.
I am appalled at the non actions of overseers and those who support them in their non actions.
I am appalled by this ministry’s lack of love and care, and moral standards.
Their choice to continue on as though nothing is amiss, and encourage the fellowship to ignore it as well.
God said long ago, you have caused my people to err.
Please folks, listen to the Holy Spirit, whose motive is to save you from a lost Eternity.
What are the motives of a ministry that encourages you to sin by encouraging you to ignore child sexual abuse, sexual abuse and other forms of abuse , that God hates?
Minimizing it, covering it, not willing to address it in a way that would insure that it would not be so prevalent in the ministry and fellowship.
It shouldn’t be named once among us.
God is grieved, His true people are grieved.
If we are not grieved, and act like the priest and the Levite, we are not loving one another and according to our dear Saviour, we are not His…..
Because He said that “ by this shall all men know that ye are my deciples, in the love that he have for one another, which is the second greatest commandment.
“Love thy neighbour as thyself”
I plead with you all ,to beg the Holy Spirits direction regarding this great sin, and do not listen to man.
The Bible teaches “ cursed is he who trusts in man”
May the God of all Truth, deal with your hearts in this matter.💞
I see a few Post about Don Reynolds and his going to meetings again. I am a so called survivor of Don Reynolds from over 50 years ago. I can’t fix stupid however sometimes Duck Tape muffles the sound. Anyone that allows this monster around their children is at risk of the state removing them and putting the children in a safe environment. The only word in the Bible that applies to this thing is Mill Stone. Best wishes in your decisions.
It is very sad that one of Don’s victims cry’s out on Wings and no word from any of the workers from Ohio or Indiana. Who was the worker who gave the couple from Ohio “the directive” to ban Don from meeting? Why is he silent now that Don is back in meeting. So much for this “Safe Fellowship”.
Crickets is all we hear. Wonder what we will hear in the Sunday morning meeting? Shameful behavior.
@chull1103 would you please email me: henoffour@gmail.com
NathanB-
Yes I agree with you on your comment about the moderators of CCF
Sorry that you could not even tie up loose ends and get info to keep in contact with friends.The way they deal with people on there are pretty immature.
Good seeing you on here aswell.
Thanks WFT admin for posting my posts even though its of topic, bur rest assured I wont debate the homosexual topic on here, this is not the place.
Louise, there is no “debate” about homosexuality. It is a fact. This is the place to talk about it. Here is why: homophobes (mostly found in Christian and Muslim churches) have long conflated homosexuality with CSA, hence the abuse of homosexuals in churches (not just 2x2ism) because of that false conflation. Surely you are aware of this? If not, you may need to re-examine everything you think you know about homosexuality.
What this is not the place for is the non-CSA bible ping pong that this site allows far too much. I hope they reduce more of it.
Watchman, yes, homosexuality is a sin. So is greed, lust, porn, drunkenness and a lot of other sins that people in “the fellowship” have and hide it, but yet they feel so superior to the sinfulness of homosexuality.
Nonsense sin is sin. Homosexuality is a human condition no different from heterosexuality. It is biology, not ideology, which is where most fundamentalists get hooked on as they advance their hate agenda.
God created homosexuals, and you want to consign them to hell? That is pretty awful stuff and not in line with anything Jesus taught, who, in the view of most Christians, is God himself! Even Paul, whom you and other fundies misinterpret, was talking about heterosexuals in homosexual practices. No doubt that is offensive to their souls so Paul was correct in that.
No wonder there is so much abuse foisted onto gay people, let alone the CSA offenders who try to get you to turn your attention to them as the offenders. And then there are the abuse enablers……you “homosexuality is a sin” people.
The bible promotes or allows genocide, CSA (child marriage), slavery, abuse of women. Yet most believers have correctly made that right today. It is time you got your morals straight about homosexuality. You will then know better how to love your neighbor.
To clarify, homosexual behavior is sinful, but the Bible never says it is a sin to be tempted. Simply stated, a struggle with temptation may lead to sin, but the struggle itself is not a sin. The Bible does not describe homosexuality behavior as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Without Christ, we are lost, whatever type of sin has entangled us. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is available to the homosexual just as it is to the adulterer, idol worshiper, murderer, and thief. God promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation.
@Watchman serious question, in the light of all this transgender speak , which in truth is just another take on homosexuality – do you think that there’s a possibility that it’s hormone related? As we watch different things explode into the news, it’s always interesting to me to watch the age group catagory that all of a sudden has some new idea, or issue, or something medical. This is what I have noticed: In all the generations before our oldest son, there were a couple people who identified as homosexual that I was friends with, but not many (I graduated with a class of over 300 students, and there were two in my whole school). As our oldest son’s generation aged, there all of a sudden were dozens that came out (there were many others who obviously were, but kept quiet), just as they entered high school or just after graduation (class of almost 300 students) from just HIS school (other schools around the state were similar). Now, this new group (mostly in their school years or not long out) has even more they are dealing with, but it’s a pretty tight age group. We never vaccinated any of our children, but have kept in touch with many of their school friends and family who did (from Washington to North Carolina), and I can’t help but wonder if the government is screwing with our children via vaccinations.
I also know some who were homosexual for many years, and have come forward and talked about their experience, and that they know now that it is something that “could have been fixed”, but the medical community either chooses (or is being forced to) not help them in the manner that they should.
I don’t like to see ANY group of people harmed, hated, or shunned, because God does love every soul.
@sin I agree, and all of us have our own baggage, and need God’s help. I’m thankful He’s never given up on me. I have often wondered why this speck of dust is one He keeps speaking to. I have hated people (those who’ve hurt me), and He’s helped me to work through those feelings (because He wants to take care of that) and has allowed me to not let people have that type of control over me any more, and much more. He’s even helped me find safe councilors to teach me tools to deal with things, and classes so I am no longer a sitting duck…which I was also able to share with our daughter.
henoffour, human sexuality is as unique to individuals as DNA. One’s sexual profile and orientation is a complex interconnection of genetic and hormonal influences. Studies have indicated that social influences after birth are weakly associated, if at all, meaning that the accusations of ideology as the cause of gay or trans orientation are blatantly false. It is biology, not ideology.
The binary perspective (“God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve”) that we see from homophobes is shallow and false. Biblical understanding is also shallow as biblical writers understood the existence of heterosexuality only.
I bring this subject up because homophobe haters are inclined to link pedophilia with homosexuality, hence heaping abuse on a significant segment of society using CSA victims as their pawns and inflicting even more abuse indirectly on the CSA victims. I have seen this happen too often.
For those who still think that God made only heterosexuals in two genders, I would encourage them to chat with homosexuals and ask them when they decided to become gay and what teaching led them to it. I have asked on many occasions and always got much the same answer. Given the fact that gay people have been persecuted at many junctures throughout history, what sane person would ever “decide” to become gay or trans? None, although some with mental health issues could attempt to pervert their natural heterosexual orientation but those are in the extreme minority.
Gay and trans orientations are an immutable fact of life and not a “lifestyle choice”. We all need to love our neighbors as ourselves and that means accepting all orientations as equal and valued human beings.
I admire the friends and workers that stand up for the vulnerable and innocent, keep up the good work!
Don Reynolds is in “meetings” again! Why are sexual perverts allowed back into a group, when the group knows that the sexual molesters are tearing down the group? A survivor of Don Reynolds writes, “Anyone that allows this monster around their children is at risk of the state removing them and putting the children in a safe environment. The only word in the Bible that applies to this thing is Mill Stone. Best wishes in your decisions”.
This entire religious group is dereliction of duty for safe psychology and physical and most importantly, spiritual protection of the young and vulnerable. Allowing the likes of Don Reynolds, Gilbert Smith and many other leaders in the organization to continue to roam freely amongst the vulnerable and victims, shows the complete depravity of the group as a whole. It is not Christian and something lead by Christ. And if it is not lead by Christ, what are the people of this group following?
Isn’t following Christ just one way? A direct, simple path? It’s very clear that “the way” is NOT Jesus way.
Craig Winquist, the highly college educated, highly esteemed, head worker said about shutting down sexual assault lawsuits from the sexual molester workers, ““One of the issues, and this is another way of looking at it… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way.
So, there’s that thought that we don’t want to become identified as one universal fellowship even though we have a lot in common; there is room for regional differences”.
I was always taught, ” the way “, was Christ way. From what Craig Winquist says, “monolithic Fellowship”, or ” one way”, is not what this religion is about. This religion is about many different paths, ” we don’t want to become identified as one universal fellowship “. Isn’t Christ all about ” universal fellowship “? Most certainly! It’s called Christianity.
Who can stand against Christ? Nobody. Craig Winquist is concerned who will stand against the ” fellowship ” in the court of law. Craig Winquist may be able to out smart the laws of man but the little human won’t out smart God. That thinking, of taking away the rights of sexual abused victims, after the sexual assault from a worker, is despicable. Oh but, Craig Winquist sure looks holy.
“holy Craig Winquist” I appreciate your sentiments, but the deception is not uniquely Craig’s viewpoint. He was just relaying the agreed consesus of the entire Overseer staff present at the Seneca IL meeting. The purpose of the meeting (or at least one topic of discussion) was for all of them to get on the same page that their fellowship is not one body, but rather regional entities with intentional differences for the purpose of staying out of legal hot water.
Protecting and feeding the flock works in mysterious ways, and frankly, good sheep don’t question how the shepherd does their dirty job. Just shut up and be thankful.
Baaaaaaaaa! (a lamb to the slaughter)
Nevin, thanks for the clarification. You note, “the deception is not uniquely Craig’s viewpoint. He was just relaying the agreed consesus of the entire Overseer staff present at the Seneca IL meeting”.
This shows that not just Craig Winquist, but the ” entire Overseer staff”, is complicit in taking away the rights of sexual abused victims, afterwards the sexual assault from a worker. And, this is beyond despicable. Taking away the sexual abused victim’s rights. And, protecting the sexual molesting worker.
The entire Overseer staff!!! They want “the fellowship” to be a bunch of separate unique groups, going their own separate ways, so they can’t be tied together to one big group in a group wide class action law suit. That is cunning. Side stepping the law is very suave. The Overseers staff obviously had the input of high dollar lawyers on this path to take.
It is also a huge mess, especially when you are talking about a religious group that should have a singular focus of serving Christ. Instead, here the singular focus is avoiding a massive, group wide, class action law suit that would greatly impact the funds pool.
Not to be concerned about faith.
@Fundsoverfaith does your state not have a victim fund set up yet? I know we’ve had one here now for many many months. Doesn’t matter whether the predator was the act of a worker, elder, or other, they can get the help they need. I purposely listed them as to the size of their predatory group. With their being almost 700 names now, and each one having an average of 10 victims (we know some have had well over 100, but statistically the norm is 10 on average, so that’s why I am using that number – it’s likely much higher)…that’s almost 7000 victims!!
Sin- Amen to what you said🌷
And a blessed Christmas time to all.
Louise, you say, “And a blessed Christmas time to all”. YES, I love what you said!!! Christmas!!! Christmas means the annual Christian festival celebrating the dear Christ’s birth. Our wonderful savior. Growing up I could never say, ” Merry Christmas “! We never celebrated the savior, the One that gives total meaning to life. My wonderful wife tells of bleak Christmas mornings. She would save something, a necklace maybe, from a garage sale free box, wrap it up and open it in secret Christmas morning. The thinking of these people that can’t utter, Merry Christmas and instead resort to, ” Happy Holidays “, is beyond sad. Not being able to recognize Christ! Will He recognize anyone that doesn’t recognize Him? Now I no longer have the shackles of a religion that does not dare mention, Christmas, so now I join Louise in saying, a blessed Christmas time to all!!! Merry Christmas!!! Thank you my God!!!
To Merry Christmas,
The workers and the friends celebrate Christ’s birth, Death, and Resurrection Every Sunday morning NOT Just on Dec, 25th. By the way, Jesus was NOT born on Dec. 25th…. Jesus birth was around in March or April.
You might NOT be Free as you believe. Dec. 25th was a pagan god birth day that the RCC came up for the pagans to feel right at home when they convert to Roman Catholic Church
It is amazing that cult members can cite what other religions “came up for” but claim to know nothing about their own founder William Irvine and what his crazy beliefs were. Merry Christmas.
Growing up I was always told the same thing, “we celebrate Jesus every Sunday”. That Christmas is for the world. Yet, in meetings I never heard of the joy of Christ birth, his cruel death and the miraculous rising from the dead. It was all about ” the way “, workers to support, workers sacrifice…” And I sat in many, many meetings.
Yes, Jesus was not born on December 25, that is true. As Scripture states, “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord” (Romans 14:5–6).
Whatever Christians decide to do regarding Christmas, their views should not be used as a club with which to beat down or denigrate those with opposing views. Neither should one’s view be used as a badge of honor inducing pride over celebrating or not celebrating. As in all things, we should seek wisdom from Him who gives it liberally to all who ask (James 1:5) and accept one another in Christian love and grace, regardless of our views on Christmas celebrations.
Workers very much use their dress code, their sacrifice and their beliefs as a badge of honor inducing pride, and beat down anyone in disagreement, including those that wish to even dare say, Merry Christmas.
@self righteous Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year! I grew up going to meetings, and still do. We were taught that saying by my Grandparents, and we still use it. We kids would go with whomever was choosing the tree two days before Christmas. We always looked forward to the raw hotdogs we’d have for a snack (I know, weird, right? But, the meat is already cooked so I guess the adults were thinking it a good choice). Then, the tree would be sat on porch to de-bug for the night, and the next day (December 24th) we would bring it inside, and the creating of decorations would begin, until the evening meal (an enormous spread) and once the dishes were done, we would decorate the tree with each person’s creations (so the tree was different every year, except for the special Angel that Grandpa hoisted to the top), and we’d share hot cocoa and treats and sing Christmas carols, and then we would fix the special plate/mug for Santa…and then off to bed. The next morning, was magical, because at some point in the night, tinsel rained down on the tree making it all sparkley (probably my grandparents, but I never caught anyone actually doing it) with the blinking lights flashing off of it, and presents galore beneath it! I don’t know where you grew up, but we frequently heard about the birth of Jesus, and the Joy that was to those seeking Him, and we heard about his death and what that meant to us as His children, and the hope that is held out to us, because He rose again.
But, this site isn’t meant to discuss religious whacking from either side, it’s meant to be a place for victims of the ugly, evil predators, that have snuck in unawares to harm. I’ve no doubt that the ministry has known about this depraved behavior for over four decades (because, We were led to believe that the worker that my parents turned in was “a one time offender”, but once the investigation happened, it was revealed there were many others, and he was quickly removed from the ministry). That was in 1978 – he was down visiting from Canada, but had been laboring overseas where the majority of his victims were. His name was Dan Douglas. He even showed up at Miltown convention the following year, and during breakfast…with me sitting beside my father, tried tp assault me right there at the table. I was 16. Said very loudly, “remove your hand from my crotch!” to everyone’s horror. Dad jumped up and drug him out of the dining tent and sent him on the road back to Canada. He was told to never return to the USA. Dad had friends at the US Customs and his name was put on a do not allow entry list. Me, I left convention too. Went back to the home where I was a Nanny, and didn’t attend another meeting until many years later and self defense classes under my belt, because predators are everywhere. Not just at meeting or churches. Keep watch of your precious children this Christmas Season, and any time family and friends are gathering.
Very business like indeed! “The purpose of the meeting (or at least one topic of discussion) was for all of them to get on the same page that their fellowship is not one body, but rather regional entities with intentional differences for the purpose of staying out of legal hot water”. Thanks Nevin Pontious for the insider info.
To “No Hot Water”: I don’t have insider info, merely putting into plain words what is written in the the original post by Lecil and Gaby Townsend owners of the former convention grounds at Clever. Please read their letter and correct me if I am misunderstanding it, I’m not here with the intent to spread lies or misinformation by twisting words. Admittedly, “Worker Speak” is always loose enough not say anything too directly that would make it difficult to backpedal later, so my interpretation could be one thing, and Craig Winquist would surely reply “well that’s not what i meant”.
sin is sin- well said!
“…what (the Overseers) real concern was.… When we’re not looked at as a monolithic Fellowship, in other words, we don’t have one identity in a sense, then our region is in legal protection.
Otherwise, you can get sued as a whole group. But because we aren’t a monolithic work in the sense and we are Regional, then that is a protection in a way”.
Instead of the Overseers being concerned about being sued, due to them and their staff, being sexually improper with the people they are supposed to be giving divine directions to, why don’t the Overseers and staff simply stop doing improper sexual acts that will get them sued? Is that a dumb question? I don’t know, I’m not an Overseer.
Thanks, Just saying for setting us all straight on Christmas, what would we do without you.
Merry Christmas to all! Leaving this “fellowship” aka cult was the best decision in our journey with Christ. No more wührkers in our life is an amazing feeling. I admire people trying to create a safe “fellowship,” but the only safe thing to do is to leaving meetings and following God.
Hmmmm…. To Shane…
Did Jesus tell the true believers of the 5 bad churches in Revelation to leave the New Testament fellowship?
Didn’t Jesus tell the immoral believers, evil believers in those 5 churches to Repent? We don’t read Jesus tell the True believers to LEAVE the fellowship because of some bad apples in the fellowship did we?
Jesus told the bad, the ugly, and the immoral believers to Repent or He will remove their names out the book of life. Jesus praised the good and true believers to continue to do good deeds because the crowns of life and rewards are waiting for them in heaven.
This isn’t “The New Testament fellowship,” it’s a harmful cult. This cult is centered around the wührkers, not Jesus.
“New Testament fellowship”? What is New Testament about William Irvine? What is New Testament about widespread CSA? What is New Testament about a bunned up head and frumpy dress? Those are customs from the time period William Irvine made up his, ” the way”. Self righteous, immoral believers, evil believers…. Let’s split up William Irvine’s way so the CSA victims can’t sue us as a group and get the bundle of cash we have from all those widows estates! And, don’t you dare have the joy from Christ, and don’t you think of saying, Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays to all the immoral and evil believers! To the rest, Merry Christmas!!!
Just Saying, you are such a gem. You don’t, and won’t say, Merry Christmas. But you surely support having the fellowship split up into little groups and go their separate ways, so the unrelenting and unrestrained sexual assaults cannot cause system wide law suits. You remind me of my dear old mom. She wouldn’t miss a “meeting” but she wouldn’t hesitate to steal, even while at convention. Just Saying, I’m glad I don’t need to hear your preaching any more, and for me to occupy a chair where I was the hostage for an hour in front of you. But, I do wish you joy, that only Christ can give you, and I do want to wish you a Merry Christmas!
Just Saying, wears a bun and doesn’t know why, but knows how evil the words, Merry Christmas, are. Just Saying doesn’t know who William Irvine is, but knows everything about every other church, its founding, and church practice there is. Just Saying knows everything there is to know, including how long a skirt should be, and the best way to avoid a CSA lawsuit, but Just Saying can’t say, Merry Christmas? Just Saying, stay on your island. You don’t need to celebrate Jesus birth with the rest of the planet. I’d send you a life raft, but we are better off with you.
I KNOW a lot about William Irvine, the early days workers history, the Faith Mission group and MUCH more… I have been doing a lot of research about these things for over 45 years….
The moderators or Administrator don’t post MANY of my post on here only 40% of what I wrote. I would like to share my experiences and what I have learned, I believe you and many people will find it very interesting, helpful in MANY areas of 2x2s ministry and fellowship. I have a website/message board to back it up.
I get discouraged and try NOT to reply or answers too many posts on here. Well, the people running this board, like to promote mostly on Victims of CSA, and the abusers, which too bad. We must move on and try NOT dwell on the past too long because people get too depressed.
It would be nice someone could start a nice/mature no attacking message board so, we can share our experiences and learn from one another.
You should start your own board where you can post your lengthy comments and your version of history.
WINGS objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.
I will have to disagree with you, we’ve barely scratched the surface on the discussions that need to be had on Child Sexual Abuse and Sexual Abuse of women, which is the point of Wings For Truth. We have a problem, it’s not getting fixed, there’s still all types of abusive people attending meetings…and that should NEVER fly with anyone who reads their Bible. We are here for the longhaul, in hopes of making a difference. Even if my efforts only save one child, it’s all worth it!!
I have my own message board where I post 2000 years plus HISTORICAL Documents of Jesus Christ, the apostles/workers of 2x2s. It’s nice to present all sides of historical FACTS and let the readers make their own decision then in judgment day, that leave people without excuses that God is dead and doesn’t care about His people and the world.
This way, nobody will say Hey, no one has told us about these things. God is the God of LOVE and He CARES about these things and want to inform us through historical documents, scriptures and Revelation.
Some of the workers and us tried to inform, educate, and inform the ministry and the fellowship in the year 2000 on the Truth message board for over 20 years before WINGS, started by an ex-2×2 Scott.
If the ministry and the fellowship had taken heed and the WARNING seriously with the information we posted 23 years ago! They would have wouldn’t have too MUCH problems they have now. They are waken up these days but the damage already done…. now, is the time to clean up the MESS, don’t worry God is in control and they will heal the Church to get the BRIDE of Christ ready for His 2nd coming, Reigning 1000 years on earth/Universe with the True believers.
Well, thanks Bruce M. my old friend as the administrator for this site, he KNOWS about me over 20 years. Thanks, for all of you moderators, keep up the good works. Let us point people to FOCUS on Christ because He is our ROCK and Founder of our Faith.
You are a nice fellow NB, but we do need to keep the discussion here relevant to the CSA/SA topic. WINGS is neither pro nor anti F&W and the purpose of this site is to protect children and support victims. Solutions are needed, not history or theological information.
Hi Bruce,
Good to hear from you, long time no see, and hear….. I understand what you are trying to do. To be fair, Ok. You should NOT allow posts on here go on and on poking at the history of 2×2 William Irvine is a CULT and ask people to jump the 2×2 sinking ship. Tell them to stick with CSA NOT slamming and trying to do away with the 2x2s.
Why you allow people to attack the 2x2s on here and NOT allow those love Jesus Truth and Way of 2×2 to defend their belief?
No one has been banned from this site. Not yet anyway. Some posts don’t get approved due to irrelevancy to CSA/SA as this is not a 2×2 debating site. There are other sites specifically designed for that such as the TMB.
When I was 25 and first heard the gospel I was thrilled because of the hope held out to me. I read all those lists about the sins of the flesh and realized, that’s me. The thing that stood out to me was the gospel story didn’t stop with those sins of the flesh but always went on to how Christ could change me and I could be an overcomer of the sins of the flesh.
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With that hope was the sure message that Christ only worked that miracle in a yielded life. He also made it so clear that tho this seed would fall into many lives, only a few would remain yielded and some would revert back to the sins of the flesh, to the cares of life. I remember so well when this truth became real to me and I was fearful about which of the soils I was made of. I was thrilled to see Gods work in my life and in the lives of others. I was saddened to see some go back to the cares of life, to the sins of the flesh. But I was not surprised because Jesus warned that it would be so.
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There have been many documented cases of sexual sins among us. The vast majority of studies have been on men who have never known an experience with Christ. Indeed if the statistics are true only a small fraction of the cases are even known. I would submit that there are no known statistics for how many men who were sexual perverts that have come to Christ and been changed into a true child of God.
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Of course an unrepentant pervert should never be allowed in a fellowship meeting. We didn’t begin in Christs way before repentance and we can never remain or continue in Gods way without repentance.
@Amen I would submit that the statistics amongst “perverts that have come to Christ” are non-existant. They may be looking for a new pool of victims to prey on, and came in and groomed everyone into thinking they were there for spiritual help, but it’s simply not the case.
I’ve watched some predators even get hostile “I’ve taken enough heat for this”, “I’ve already paid the price”, “I didn’t know it would hurt someone like that”…it always starts with “I” and ends with excuses/lies. All while pretending (complete with tears and fake regret…) because they got caught, not because they are sorry for what they did.
Within the realm of predators of the pedophile nature, the statistics prove that once skin contact has been made, there’s never in the history of reporting these crimes, been a case where a predator didn’t go right back to their criminal behavior. I would also like to submit that in the history of man-kind (from Adam to December 2023 and beyond) it has never and never will be okay to intentionally harm a child in any capacity. It’s an abomination to God, and Jesus made it clear that “it were better that a Millstone be hanged about the neck and be thrown into the sea” if someone harmed one of the little ones (and he was including a babe that had come into the family of God).
When I was speaking with our State Sheriff regarding this mess, he just mentioned that there were some things that would be true before there could possibly be a light/glimmer of hope, although they had never had any success to this point:
1) They must admit to their crime
2) They would admit to what they did
3) They would admit to EVERY child they harmed
4) They would turn themselves in to accept the consequenses
5) They would never again allow themselves to be or be taken to a place where children could be present, for the rest of their lives.
However, they rarely have one turn themselves in, and had NEVER had a predator admit to EVERY child, nor have they been admant about not being where a child could possibly be.
So, to prove they are repenatent, they would NEVER ask, nor would they accept the invitation, to attend a meeting.
@Shane what is a “wuhrker” just asking?
Find the Cooneyite video part 1 and 2 on YouTube. Made by a former 2×2 member.
Just making sure that everyone is aware that the names listed in support of this document are not all legit. In fact, the list includes someone convicted of child pornography who has not been in fellowship for several years, much less ever having been an elder. Please do not believe everything you read online.
I’m all for not believing everything we read, including your comment. Could you please tell us which names aren’t legit? If this person you mention was convicted, it should be public knowledge. Please give us a link to a public record to show us what you’re saying is true.
I think this is a case of mistaken identity. One of the signers shares a name with a person (with a child pornography conviction) who lives in a different part of the same state
How MANY letters have been made up like this letter? Letter after letter. Words after words. It’s like a dog that is chasing its own tail. Going around in circles.
People write, “To the Friends and Workers of our community,
We are broken-hearted and devastated after hearing about so many painful and traumatic experiences in our fellowship from the sexual assault1 and child sexual abuse2″.
Given the very structure of this group, ” ministers ” living with the very people that they sexually molest. These so called church leaders were not set up by Jesus and are not on the mission of those that were. What’s happening in this group, will continue to happen.
What is the future looking like? The same. More letters, more words, more sexual assaults, more spiritual abuse. When it’s not lead by Jesus Christ, it’s not going to end with Jesus Christ. The people in this group are all in the same boat and nothing will change that. Unless, of course, they get tired of the same thing over and over, and get out of the boat.
“Safe fellowship” will fail, if for no reason other than this letter. This letter states, “At this time, we will continue to have fellowship with all of you in accordance with safety guidelines, our conscience, and the word of God”. These people that wrote this letter should know they need to START with the word of God! Not start with their own human ” safety guidelines ” and human “conscience”, and then squeeze “the word of God” in, at the end.
“We will continue to follow the heart of Jesus and promote the safety of all, especially the children and those who are most vulnerable within our fellowship”. What does it even mean, “to follow the heart of Jesus “? They should be FOLLOWING Jesus! Period. His Word is in the Bible!
This whole “fellowship”, as it’s now currently labeled, is a big mess. And it all began by not following first, the Word of God and Jesus. It’s that simple. Following the ideas of William Irvine was never a good idea. This letter shows that. You can’t even begin to have fellowship, if it is not safe. And ” safe fellowship ” will fail. So, in the end there will be no “fellowship”.
The “word of God”, presumably meaning the Bible(??) is what got this group in trouble along with most fundamentalist/evangelical groups who all have elevated CSA rates. And if you are a bible literalist, it will get you into trouble too sooner or later, it is inevitable. Genocide, CSA, SA, LGBTQ hatred, enslavement and other activities are all bible-inspired for literalists. Be really careful about the “word of God”.
The writers of this letter are doing a good job at “following Jesus” by understanding the Jesus spirit and responding to it. No one is a Jesus follower if they don’t take real steps to protect children from evil people. To sit on the sidelines suggesting that good people trying to protect children are unrighteous is a rather hideous position to take and hardly “following Jesus”.
Watchman you have your facts wrong. fundamentalist/evangelical groups all have elevated CSA rates. They are honest groups about their doctrine and their history. They even carry libility insurance for the perverts who parade as following Jesus. They admit CSA is wrong. What is 2×2 record? 2×2’s rate is much more elevated than.
Refuse to admit and by lawyer up seek to hide funds that have been hidden and then as henoffour said even sign up for medicaid saying no income. Pays for apartments food medical wonder if also sign-up for food thanksgiving-christmas and gifts under the tree? Is that the Jesus spirit? While they follow Jesus and hide and scheme to say they are NOT monolithic and not responsible? Those who are withdrawing and refuse to let wurkers mess-up their meeting are wise. But are on a rode to NO where. Jesus protected his Fathers House of Prayer. 12 apostles worshipped in Jesus Father’s House and in His synagogues while protecting children and healing the lame and protecting the funds for the believers by telling the schemers they lied unto God to tempt the Spirit of the Lord while hiding their money and died.
Result. great fear came upon all the church. Has that happened? Has the church gotten enough fear recognize that our little ones our most precious to God.
schemers not God, I think you need to do more research as you are far from accurate. The fundamentalists are the worst of the worst and it doesn’t seem to matter if they have procedures, insurance or admit that it’s bad, the numbers are horrific.
As the iconic Christian CS Lewis says: “Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst.” Of course they are. They use their religion as cover which the atheists don’t have.
Suggestion: don’t get caught moving away from a small cult only to get caught up in a bigger one.
Watchman:
Your statement: “the Word of God is what got this group in trouble…..who have elevated CSA rates”. “(if you are a Bible literalist) it is inevitable.”
We have heard a lot of reasons for CSA but this was NOT one of them.
1 Corinthians 10:1-:5 concerning the seed of Abraham.
:1 I would not that you should be ignorant: Israel had great
advantage :1 – :4. But God was not pleased :5
BUT. :5 they were over thrown in the wilderness(cast-out)
WHY did God record these things for us???
:6 to the intent we Should Not “LUST” after evil things! :7, :8,
:9, :10
Paul wrote this to his carnal assembly; even tho they were carnal;
1 Cor. 3: that these things were written for their “admonition”…
This taking the Bible “God’s WORD Literally” is not nor never has been the the reason for CSA by bible-inspired literalists. It is and always was twisted and vile minds and “lust” of demented men!
To put this on Our God is just like those who refuse to own-up to their destruction of our little ones and not only refuse to provide honesty of their criminal behavior, admit their guilt, admit they have destroyed in their own twisted lust an innocent child, remove all predators, and do what is needed for the victims recovery; BUT ALSO scheme with lawyers and overseers world over to secretly protect their ill-gotten money by false, evil ministry. Not to mention; they continue to parade as LEADERS of God’s Only True Way as they changed it from the Kingdom – to the fellowship – to the Body – to the “Region”. The abuse of trusting, concerned, serious, law abiding, problem solving, intelligent mature adults who have a deep abiding love for our little ones and frail ones, who completely – STILL – Yet trust the so called overseers. This POST of Safe Fellowship is an example of the depth of betrayal by a Ministry???? as they show their inability for any concern or to care even about those who REMAIN loyal and YET want to fix what they STILL trust and believe.
Watchman; Your list of Bible inspired gross sins is unfathomable that you contribute the cause of these as inspired by the Word of God: , ‘as written’. God’s record Romans 15:4 For whatsoever was written aforetime(before Paul) were written for our learning( and understanding), THAT we through patience and comfort of the scriptures MIGHT Have HOPE!
When Jesus was tempted of the devil WHAT response did Jesus, our very God the Son, in HIS fleshly Body, answer and say?
Matthew 4:4 It is written, “man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of God. “Literal”!
We understand the squirming and refusal of the 2×2’s to own-up to their responsibilities; BUT not because of God’s Word. They are evil.
Why? The Love of Money is the Root of Evil. But we do not understand the ‘Jesus’ spirit’ the writers of this letter are following. Jesus “spirit” is impossible without God’s “written WORD”.
As Sam Valley, so honestly writes “I am ashamed and grieved to realize — WHAT I Thought I HAD and much of what I believed were NOT as I “imagined”! What a burden for His Heart to know as he realizes he cannot help the victims! What a hammer to His Head, because he did NOT know God’s WORD as “literally written”. We know; we were there.
Why was NOT the Jesus’ “spirit” enough?
One is NOT ABLE to follow Jesus without knowing and understanding every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Ones imagination is NOT a substitute. YES, that is a HARD LESSON!??
Solution is: Proverbs 9:10. The fear of the Lord IS the beginning of wisdom: AND the Knowledge of the Holy is “Understanding”.
How does one ‘get understanding’? Knowledge of God’s Word. THEN after actually knowing God’s WORD; “Honesty”, admitting their guilt, and deep concern to and for the victims goes a long way to help healing as much as possible.
“if you are a bible literalist, it will get you into trouble too sooner or later, it is inevitable. Genocide, CSA, SA, LGBTQ hatred, enslavement and other activities are all bible-inspired for literalists”. Who ever wrote this, reads a much different Bible than I do.
It is the exact same Bible. KJV, ESV, NLV, NASB…take your pick, and I don’t say any of this lightly. You are in a cult if you can’t perceive the truth of what you are reading.
There are too many of you anti-2×2’s running around on this site making cult allegations and unable to see that you are deeply buried in a cult. Just because it is a bigger cult doesn’t make it any less than a cult.
Watchman. is that ‘right’?
The reason for this site is help the victims. what helps victims. one is for the victims to know those scum who hurt them are evil and wrong! Next thing is for victims to know those who played hide em; are also evil and wrong, as they condemned and try to twist the victims as the quilty and their families. Next is to help victims to learn and how to use coping skills when their brain does a trigger melt down. The refusal for so called leaders to fess up and demand those scum admit are scum is another crime.
Since you are able to perceive what you read explain what has been printed here many times.
Apostles Doctrine after the Father give them the Spirit of truth John 14: which is the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost make our abode with him: THIS is Jesus promise to his12 apostles who are His witness
His chosen 12 had doctrine Acts 2:42 – Believers continued steadfastly in apostles Doctrine :43 fear
Acts 2::44 all that believed had all things common
:45 AND sold their possessions….parted to all…as had need
:46 And they CCONtinueing DAIiy with one accord in the TEMPLE!!!
The victims learn that their perfect Godly spirit led scum who deliberately hurt them—do not even FOLLOW what Jesus sent His 12 witness to be and DO.
THAT IS the Next thing that will help the victims try to cope and heal.
Knowing the wurkers do not follow Jesus nor the 12 apostles as 2×2’s. Watchman if 2×2’s follow Jesus AS WRITTEN how do you perceive what Jesus said and what the 12 apostles did? Jesus and the12 must be the cult. BUT what great healing for the victims to know that the scum could not nor were not of Jesus.
Is George P. letter insinuating they always were led by the Holy Spirit (following the cloud as in Gen) in their actions with CSA and SA these last 100 years? They are indicating they’ll continue the same way and not take any “chastisement ” to change what has been obviously “not” under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Like, their going to follow God’s Holy Spirit now, is the height of gaslighting at it’s best. God’s cloud would “never” have lead in the direction they’ve taken over the years, and they will not repent or admit that. It’s twisting scripture deviously to justify what they’ve done and now intend to continue to do, with no accountability. The letter is a perfect definition of self-righteousness. “No remorse”. Did you happen to notice the legal disclaimer at the end? Has anyone concluded we have corrupt leaders? By their fruits you will know them! Thank God, Jesus is our leader and not them. They are in their own “shameful” world and I’m not sure they realize it. Ask , would Jesus ever write a letter such as this? They have “great” concern that the authority of the ministry “would be not invalidated” (but “absolutely nothing” mentioned about concern for victims}. The main concern of this letter is keeping their power and authority, they do not accept that God has given Jesus the authority, not men. Their “self-proclaimed” absolute, unquestioned authority they’ve given themselves is the major reason for the issues we face. Maybe they should look to Jesus for “righteous” authority. They have taken the place of Jesus with their self-proclaimed authority, putting themselves between saints and Jesus. With all that’s been exposed, how could anyone trust in “their” arrogant self-proclaimed absolute authority, it’s disgraceful. They have lost all creditability from on High and don’t even appear to have any desire to correct it, other than ignore it and hope it goes away. This letter is all about “keeping” unquestioned absolute authority. Quote: Protecting abusers does not make you holy righteous or forgiving. It makes you a partner with evil. Quote 2: Forgiveness and Love does not mean to accept & ignore evil.