November 8th, 2023 Letter: Deacons & Advocates
To our friends in Texas & New Mexico,
The deacon/advocate project has been quite the process, and although we still have more to learn, we feel that the system currently in place will promote a safe environment for our fellowship. Our main objective is to protect the vulnerable, be in compliance with the law, and to have an internal record of any predatory and/or red flag behaviors by anyone in our fellowship.
This process is intended to:
- Keep an internal record of information in any cases of CSA/SA and Red Flag Behaviors
- Operate separate from the ministry which prevents the consolidation of information and power
- Protect the most vulnerable among us
We are thankful for those who have willingly accepted this responsibility.
Deacons
We feel it is beneficial to use a scriptural structure and office to ensure integrity and accountability of our ministry in the event that a case of CSA or SA occurs in our fellowship. The office of a Deacon is a scriptural office (Acts 6, 1 Tim. 3:8-13). Deacons are assigned to deal with administrative responsibilities within the fellowship. The office is separate from the ministry in order to ensure that there can be no collusion or cover-ups.
The deacons have been chosen based on recommendations made by our friends and workers. In order to protect the privacy of those who are filling the role we will be listing the deacons by their gender, age range, and language spoken. We are assigning them Google numbers that will be forwarded to their cell phones. By indicating which deacons are bilingual (Spanish and English) it will allow for someone to reach outside of the deacons in their region if they need to communicate in Spanish.
We have created a chat forum on our Fellowship Resources & Communications platform where the deacons will be able to communicate and support one another. Our thought is that the current deacons would stay in the position for 5 years and then someone else would assume the office; however, if any personal need arises the deacons are free to step away and someone else will step into the position.
We are thankful that a collaborative process has allowed this structure to be established. Our hope is that it will never need to be used, but in the event that new allegations come forward we want to have a system in place that ensures compliance with the law and accountability within our fellowship. We purpose to provide the safest environment possible.
Responsibilities of the Deacons concerning CSA/SA allegations:
- Confirm that the allegation has been reported to proper legal authorities: TXDFPS/NMCYFD and/or Law Enforcement
- Write the Incident Report to maintain an internal record of steps that have been taken. The deacons are not investigators.
(The purpose of these Incident Reports is to have documentation of steps taken to assure the safety of all in our fellowship. ) - Keep the workers in the field abreast of any accusations in their field.
- Work in conjunction with law enforcement or CPS, contacting them for recommendations when an allegation is brought to their attention.
- Inform the elder/bishop of the meeting, the workers in the field, and the friends involved about the situation, as soon as the professional investigators give them permission to do so.
Red Flag Behaviors
First and foremost the responsibility of reporting falls on the person who observed the questionable behavior. If you see something, say something to the person directly. After communicating with the individual who “raised a Red Flag”, if the person who observed the behavior still feels that there should be a record of the incident, then they must contact the deacon in their region and report it.
For information on Red Flag Behaviors see the Resource document on the FRC platform titled: Red Flag Behaviors under Policies and Guidelines
Responsibilities of the Deacons Concerning Red Flag Behaviors:
- Write the Incident Report to maintain an internal record of the behavior and the steps that have been taken
- If the behavior is repeated then more steps must be taken, and those steps will be determined by the people most familiar with the situation: Bishop/Elder of the meeting, deacons, workers in the field, the person who observed or was the recipient of the behavior
- If the behavior is not repeated then it is considered an incident of ignorance and not a Red Flag.
New Mexico: Deacons
Texas: Deacons
Advocates
We are very thankful for all the people who volunteered to fill the advocate role. We have coordinated with a CASA (Court Appointed Social Advocate) trainer to conduct a Zoom training for all who are interested in becoming advocates. It is scheduled on two separate dates in December. You will receive a certificate once you have completed your training. After you have completed your training, we ask that you email your certificate to [redacted]@gmail.com , and include in the message the region where you live. The information will be compiled and will be made available to the deacons.
Training for Advocates: From Darkness to Light
From Darkness to Light is the name of the training program currently being used by the CASA organization. This will be a live training via Zoom that is being tailored to our specific needs. The session will be 2½-3 hours long.
This is the explanation provided by our training facilitators:
- Darkness to Light is guided by the vision of a world free from child sexual abuse, envisioning a world in which adults form prevention-oriented communities that protect the child’s right to a healthy childhood, which is why our organization uses this curriculum.
- Darkness to Light believes that protecting children is an adult’s responsibility, and that through education and training, adults will be empowered to act. Their trainings are the only evidence-informed, adult-focused child sexual abuse prevention trainings proven to increase knowledge and change behavior, empowering adults and organizations to bring child safety into their own communities.
- Our Community Engagement Team members are all certified facilitators of the “Stewards of Children” training curriculum.
- The link to the Darkness to Light’s ” Stewards of Children” training:
https://www.d2l.org/education/stewards-of-children/ - The mission of this training is to teach how to recognize, prevent and react responsibly to child sexual abuse, and to teach advocates to be competent and confident in preventing abuse and to respond skillfully if it occurs.
Training Dates:
Those who would like to attend either of these sessions please email A.R. [redacted]@gmail.com, by December 10th and indicate which session you would like to attend. This information must be submitted to our CASA trainers by December 11th in order for them to prepare the training session and email the link to the Zoom Training Session participants.
- December 19th- 10am CST
- December 21st- 5:30pm CST
Our Texas/New Mexico staff has a workshop scheduled on December I9th-21st. Many of our staff would also be interested in this training program, consequently we have scheduled a training in January for our workers who are interested.
If for any reason the two dates in December will not work for those of you interested in becoming an advocate, you would be welcome to attend the session in January.
This process of using deacons and advocates is still new to us, and we know that it will grow and develop as we learn more. We are comforted by scriptural structure being followed. We hope and pray that there will never be a need that calls them into action. However, if the need arises, we feel better prepared to handle it.
Sincerely,
The Texas/New Mexico Staff
Discover more from WINGS for Truth
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
WINGS for Truth 
Firstly, how is this use of the deacon position biblical? They did not form the deacon position in the scriptures to address CSA/SA. It was to serve the widows in the church. And why would deacons need to be anonymous? The church is supposed to operate like a family and families are built in relationships. How can you have a relationship with an anonymous person? This is not a deacon serving the body, it is an administrative position that only gives an appearance of doing something about the problem. They actually state that they hope they never have to use it. The Advocate position sounds more beneficial, but nowhere do they say what the Advocates will be responsible for.
Secondly, the whole plan is ineffective because of this one point: “If the behavior is not repeated then it is considered an incident of ignorance and not a Red Flag.”
It’s not the frequency of an event that makes it reportable, but rather the nature of it.
And at the end of the day, this is all damage control. What is being done to change the environment that enables abusive behavior? How is the dysfunction being identified and paths opened for new understanding, not just concerning CSA/SA, but scriptural/doctrinal issues as well?
@juliepasta You make some valid points here. Some. It is fairly obvious that this deacon / advocate document written by Westin Price is not inspired by God. There is an attempt to glue a few verses to it to justify it but it’s like gluing wings to a pig and expecting it to fly. This document he wrote has little to no support in either Texas or New Mexico. Lyle Schober, the overseer, should have put a stop this exercise in self promotion.
R Olson. Your reply to Julie is spot-on. It is not inspired by God. Nor is any of this so-called religion. If a product of a group of so called ‘religion’ is that it is acceptable to force your lusts and desires on the vulnerable and then declare it is an incident of “ignorance”. THE victim may have been ignorant BUT traumatized. The predator is, nor ever was, an incident of ignorance. WHO are these friends and workers who think they can discern an incident of “ignorance”? Are they still in the play pen? And do NOT know why “out behind the Barn” was chosen? Secrecy! NO, there is NOT a claim of “”ignorance””.
That is just an “included LOOP-HOLE of convince, for the SO CALLED “Deacons”. ALL cases of sexual abuse are crimes! All cases of sexual abuse are “Red Flags”!. All cases of sexual abuse Demand action immediately.
Do you think this is easy? That is why Law Inforcement is the ONLY answer. You are the protector of the victim, only.
An unexplained something happened on the way to ………. the exact Jesus; only-one-true-way: so very humble and simple, with no Doctrine, no hierarchy, no law: just a little group in a humble home-built with-out hands; with lowly ministers without a home-who sold all as they follow the 12 apostles of Jesus = Jesus one true way….
Yes, something happened….NOW; they also are appointing ‘Deacons’ (you know those people who are ‘slaves’ to their masters – originally was an “under-rower”. You know they were in the hold of the ship. They lived and died in the belly of the ship. They were the rowers that were the “very power” of the War Gallery Ships!
Yes, something happened…. Only the false Churches do that. We have no structure, no laws….Only God and Jesus!
AND there were No Deacons in God’s Temple in Jerusalem, where Jesus, as his custom was (Luke 4:16) went into the “synagogue” on the Sabbath…
What did Jesus read??? Luke 4:17-:18-:19 Isaiah 61:1-2. Why? Prophecy! To announce This Day IS this ‘scripture fulfilled in YOUR ears’. Whose ears? Those Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath who kept the LORD’S Day. WHY was it important for those Jews in Nazareth to know THAT :18 – :19 Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of the LORD?.. to preach the acceptable year of the LORD? to Israel!
The 2×2’s may not know who Jesus was, BUT an unclean “devil” knew. Luke 4:31 – :34 Yes, in the Jewish synagogue. AND that is not perchance; IT was and is the Doctrine of the 12 chosen and appointed witnesses of Jesus: Acts 2:42 – :46. continuing daily in the Temple.
Just saying—something happened to the one-only-true way of Jesus and the 12 apostles…. Now, they are just like the False Worldly Churches : with power structure, and laws and Doctrines of MEN. BUT in the NAME of protecting the abused, it is necessary. You are correct!: A pig cannot fly.
astounded or oops or whatever you want to call yourself your Reges are showing your true self.
but… what do y’all want? Some places aren’t doing enough. Some are doing too much. Is it that people aren’t doing what you want?
This is a good start, now let’s get the ministry healthy by following the scripture. Matthew 18 makes it pretty clear that no one minister would be elevated (as an “overseer”). The only time the word Overseer is used to refer to a human in the Bible is in reference of the Elders…not the ministry.
We as a group have gotten away from “follow thou me” (Jn 21:22). Jesus teachings have been skirted around by the past messengers in an effort to ‘have place’. Which leads to abuse of power. Let’s cut the head of the snake off, and go back to Jesus!
Firstly, how is this use of the deacon position biblical? They did not form the deacon position in the scriptures to address CSA/SA. It was to serve the widows in the church. And why would deacons need to be anonymous? The church is supposed to operate like a family and families operate in relationships. How can you have a relationship with an anonymous person? This is not a deacon serving the body, it is an administrative position that only gives an appearance of doing something about the problem. They actually state that they hope they never have to use it. The Advocate position sounds more beneficial, but nowhere do they say what the Advocates will actually be responsible for.
Secondly, the whole plan is ineffective because of this one point: “If the behavior is not repeated then it is considered an incident of ignorance and not a Red Flag.”
It’s not the frequency of an event that makes it reportable, but rather the nature of it.
And at the end of the day, this is all damage control. What is being done to change the environment that enables abusive behavior? How is the dysfunction being identified and paths opened for new understanding, not just concerning CSA/SA, but scriptural/doctrinal issues as well?
I am saddened to see that we have now appointed Deacons.
This whole business is brought about through failure to follow scripture.
If perpetrators were dealt with correctly as Paul describes in 1st Cor 5 then there would be accountability.
Victims would have a form of closure as perpetrators are exposed within the church and to law enforcement.
Such consequences are a clear warning to perpetrators that their actions will not be tolerated.
In my opinion this is another sticking plaster on an unaddressed issue.
On another note, where do elders fit into this picture?
Are they not managing Sunday morning fellowship meetings and those who attend. Why are they not suitable to confide in? If they are not the type of caring, thoughtful, considerate person with Gods spirit in their lives that a victim could confide in – then why are they an Elder?
We keep making allowances, and unfortunately one allowance leads to another and we become totally biased in our thought process toward supporting perpetrators and asking victims to forgive, and now are merely covering bases from legal liability perspective.
I thought the same thing regarding anonymous, ridiculous. Nothing biblical about that. Still walking around in the dark looking for ways to save the ministry and overseers as it now functions .
Just follow Jesus teachings, you will probably lose your place in many cases.
It’s a place you never should have had
“They did not form the deacon position in the scriptures to address CSA/SA. It was to serve the widows in the church. And why would deacons need to be anonymous? “. These points are very valid. Deacons were NOT called on to address sexual abuses! They were considered servants to the widows, and their identity wasn’t hidden. That is simply bizarre. Who would want to contact somebody in the organization that is hiding behind some cloak. Everything needs to be transparent. That is the trouble with the entire “system”; everything is in a cloaked of secrecy, and always has been. Why did it take NINE MONTHS for the Dean Bruer mess to be exposed and known to the people when it was known to the higher ups, by their acknowledgment, within two weeks? Why is the promotion of those people to the top positions such a mystery? Who promotes these people? What about financial records and the mystery surrounding that? Why are only a select few privy to that information? If there is a central source where the main money holdings are kept, why isn’t there also a main, uniform set of rules throughout the system (ie. baptism in various locations have completely different requirements as to who is allowed in, dress codes variations differ depending on the area, t.v. use or not depends on where you live…), the requirements to be a worker from one area to the next, and the list goes on. Now, there is going to be “secret deacons”? How ….???? This secret society business boggles the mind. That appears to be the whole intention.
I have watched and discussed this document as it was being formulated. I felt it was a good sincere effort to help mitigate a problem that has plagued mankind from the beginning. I think it is very reveling that the statement is made “hopefully we will never have to use this”. That says to me that this widespread claim that all these cases are being hidden is bogus.
I have waited for this document to hit the internet and I would have to say I am not surprised by many on this site pouring out their negative views on this effort. I can’t imagine why people who say they are for the victim and want perpetrators stopped would express displeasure for an honest effort to help victims and make sure every perpetrator is reported to authorities and the cases fully documented for all to see. But again I’m not surprised.
Sending thanks to the Texas/New México staff and friends for putting a lot of thought and effort into this Deans and Advocates initiative. I feel that this could be the way forward for a lot of us.
We do have a wealth of experience among the friends which surely could be used in a beneficial way, be it administrative, a listening ear, a seeing eye, or whatever. These folk have a love within their hearts and are willing to channel that love towards the most vulnerable amongst us.
Some have questioned the anonymous nature of the positions. I am pretty sure that those in each of the localities will know who their deacons/advocates are. I know that if I were to be in such a position, I would prefer privacy from the internet trolls too! Of course, there might be some who will feel more secure in calling an ‘anonymous’, out of area number too, and thats well provided for.
We are thankful for all who are willing to step forward when God asks, ‘Who can I send? Who can I use?’
Hopefully there will be some more of us willing to step forward to be used in a Godly way. We hope that someday we might be in a position to share in some of your experience to help us navigate through our sad and drastic situation here.
Again, thank you. Maybe I know some of you, maybe I don’t, but at least I know you care!
In the meantime, I wish to remain private too 😉
Secret society? It wouldn’t be so secret if you were more involved. The closer you are the more you see. And the more you’re involved, the more help you can be. Of course some things are done confidentially. If my giving was made public, that would be… awkward.
.
Those who don’t see the workings of the apostles and deacons and elders in the Bible have clearly not read the New Testament very closely. You want elders to have to do everything? And if they have a full time job and family? Of course they should be approachable. But if more want to be involved – why do they have to have be given the position of elder to do anything? The workers give that position, which you also don’t like (and you can read about that in the letters to Timothy and Titus). If you truly don’t like the name “deacon” call it “volunteer”.
.
Of course deacons didn’t deal with CSA back in that day. Try hanging out in a non western country in our modern age – there is no “CSA” because it’s never dealt with, it’s never talked about. It makes one very thankful to be in the United States (and other countries) where these things are taken seriously. We have a long way to go but cutting to pieces every attempt to address these issues makes me wonder what side such a one is truly on?
.
I just can’t imagine the effort and amazing work that the Texas/NM workers and friends have gone to so that this project could be made as transparent as possible, creating accountability – and yet providing a way that victims can feel comfortable coming forward and receiving help. Thank you to everyone who made the effort to be involved and paving the way for the rest of the world. Of course there will have to be modifications and changes through time as you see what works and what doesn’t, but I know so much work has been done already, and so many eyes and so many experts involved. Those of you questioning what has been penned by a professional – where were you when it was in the works and what are your credentials for stating that what has been written is wrong?
Thank you for writing this. I wasn’t meaning that the workers shouldn’t be involved, just that there shouldn’t be overseers. None of them should be elevated, it leaves the door wide open for abuse of power of all kinds. I’m glad to see so many of the friends stepping up, and working so hard on something that has so much potential!
henoffour, i finally figured out your name I think! 4 children? 🙂
.
Anyway, I totally get why you and anyone else would have issues with the place of oversight in the work. The higher the position, the more temptations there are and the greater the ability to pursue such dalliances. I think that’s a problem in every facet of society. But it doesn’t stop a hierarchy or the need for one. Having a CEO or president or boss/owner – it’s just… practical. One time way back in the dark ages at a time everyone was trying to be progressive, I went to work for a company that decided to abolish the normal hierarchy and institute collaborative teams instead. It was horrible, to put it mildly. The result was that the company went bankrupt and had to be sold, and somehow that didn’t include my position. We spent all of our time in meetings trying to come to an agreement. We were not only having to do our normal job, but now we were having to try to include normal office management tasks and try to figure out how to collaborate with other teams to get things done. Our clients grew to hate us, and we didn’t exactly love each other as a result. I can’t imagine that not having overseers would allow our workers MORE freedom to be with us. They’d be in meetings trying to figure out all of the administrative tasks they could rely on their overseer to do. It’s just not practical to not have overseers. And, as far as I can tell, everyone is more or less corrupt naturally unless they have some inner spiritual brakes on the human nature. I haven’t done a study on a breakdown of the positions of the perpetrators, but it seems to me that while the overseers are the high profile cases, abusers seem to come from all sorts of positions. Perpetrators by and large are male. It’s just the biological difference in a male and a female. But we know we are just as prone to temptations as men, even if it’s in a different way. We are not naturally more godly. Anyone who wants to abuse their position will seek for ways to do so, no matter where they are in whatever hierarchy. Those that are better at grooming a society (read the latest post about Ira Hobbs) will naturally rise to a position of trust even if they are not in the position of overseer.
.
Honestly I don’t think that Dean acted alone or inappropriately in his oversight duties – in fact he likely was more careful than most so that he could carefully maintain his facade – call it grooming, if you will. (I didn’t agree with all of his policies, but I think they were just the “accepted” policies). It’s not that he was overseer that was the problem. It was that he had an evil mind. I just don’t think that changing the structure is going to fix anything and will in fact make things a lot more difficult. It’s not like people are fighting to get into the work, and why make it more difficult for our beloved workers?
.
To me, there is nothing more powerful than giving power to the one in the weaker/lower position. Power to call out things that are inappropriate, power to say no, power to speak up. And I really think that is beginning to happen these days. For our youngsters and their parents, our young workers, and all in vulnerable positions. It’s just going to take time for people to truly understand their power – after all it’s the first time in the history of the world that such power is considered righteous and appropriate. And when those who are succumbing to their weaknesses are mindful that their victim will likely call them out – I believe they will feel a lot less free to take advantage of that precious life for their own desires.
.
When my mom warned me about my older cousin, I didn’t believe her, but when it happened, I knew what was happening immediately and I shot out of there like the house was on fire. But for the next situation, she expected me to be the good girl of the group (yes, at the house of union meeting pot luck), and I found myself trapped in a situation and unable to get out of it, because I was afraid I would get blamed for being the bad girl. We’re not talking about rape – that’s an entirely different story. But almost all of the situations are an emotional trap that even a little education, a little word to make a child know to be careful, can make a huge difference. Anyway these are my thoughts – I have admittedly spent a lot of time thinking about these things and trying to understand what truly needs to change. I just don’t think this problem will be solved by chopping off the top – it just doesn’t change human nature. I think it must be solved with educating and empowering our little ones… and everyone else.
Accountability exists in all functional hierarchical organisations. Everyone is accountable, right up to the CEO. It is CEO -> Board of Directors -> Shareholders.
How about govt organisations? Top bureaucrat -> Cabinet/legislature -> Electorate
F&W ministry? Worker -> Overseer -> Nobody
It should be abundantly clear to everyone as to why corruption exists. It thrives in darkness where people don’t know what is going on and someone has absolute power. In this case, that they have power over heaven and hell for the people which is frightening for many people who believe it, and that is abuse in itself. It is wide open for abuse, not just CSA, but all kinds of emotional abuse. When you are unaccountable, your morality doesn’t get checked and corrected, which is why we are seeing widespread moral turbidity, mostly low level, but broadly practised and accepted. When it gets identified and pointed out, there is no mechanism for correction, and on it goes.
Yes, four children.
The trouble with “overseers” is that Jesus, in his wisdom, told them no one person would be above another.
The ministry IS the largest group of perpetrators, with the overseers topping the chart. Why, because they are so busy with people looking to them for advice on marriage, and all types of marriage issues, finances, etc. to the point that they don’t have enough time in a day to read and pray as they should. Without that, the Spirit of God won’t be included in any of their decisions (which has been manifested), and abuse of power with threats of “no one will believe you” and “I know where you live” being too easily tossed out, because they are traveling alone most of the time which provides opportunity. Why can’t their be two older sisters and two older brothers in each state that the elders and their wives choose, that they can work together with on all these issues? I know the elders have families, and perhaps they share the local responsibilities with the Wednesday night Bishops and their wives?
Besides, I think if it was set up more along these lines you’d have less people running to the workers for everything, because they are too lazy to search out the scriptures for themselves.
We have to fix the problem from the starting point or I don’t see how abuse of power will ever be solved. Because, if an Elder is chosen with the credentials Jesus gave, and they know that the other Elders are watching and can remove them by bringing in the chosen workers that they are working together with, they will have more accountability. Some have said “the Gospel prospered under these overseers”… no, the Gospel prospered in spite of them. When God realized He had no place among them, the ministry was blown wide open. He is well able to draw honest hearts to himself. I still see the younger workers not having voice, and definitely the sister workers. Just because they are young or female doesn’t mean God isn’t able to give them a message that he couldn’t give to the older ones who are set in their ways. Anyway, God has to be the head of it all, and He hasn’t been for far too long.
Henoffour, I liked your thoughtful thoughts on how we should go about appointing an overseer. It is good for us to take the effort think through possible solutions – brainstorming considers even unviable solutions because sometimes what our brain thinks is not possible or appropriate – in fact, sometimes it ends up that it’s the only thing that works.
.
I’m also of a mind that it seems clear that there was oversight in the Bible, such as James in Acts 21, Paul, Peter, John. It’s simply practical. He appointed a high priest, why is that? And also there were kings – another position of oversight.
.
I realized reading your comment, that overseers really take on a couple of roles – one is, that they manage their staff. The other, is that they give counsel to the friends and make decisions regarding the fellowship and gatherings. It seems what you were addressing was the latter, and you suggested that it might be the elders and their wives who choose who will be overseers, and that it would be a group of two sisters and two brothers. I can see your good points regarding this. But also I can see some issues. It’s the workers that appoint the elders, and then the elders appoint the overseers. The churches of this world vote on their preachers and it seems to me that it causes the preachers to be somewhat in bondage to please those who chose them. I just can’t see that there is a better solution than what we have now, because an overseer is an administrative role – those who see it as being someone who is more godly or more clear on scriptures are just not of good understanding. It’s not a measure of someone’s godliness. And adding all of the bureaucratic steps, I feel that it will just be a heavy burden on everyone. Not that anyone has asked my opinion on how to order the oversight! Hopefully what we can do now is have much better communication and feel free to call someone on things that we see as red flags. Anyway these are just my opinions.
@Astounded forgive me if it seemed I was being critical, I was just pointing out the truth of what you had posted.
You asked a few questions about the Jews judging themselves unworthy: Acts 13:46 will answer those questions, but read the whole chapter so you get the entire picture.
Paul was taking Jesus message to the Gentiles, he wasn’t taking the old law, because the old law in and of itself couldn’t save. Following Jesus is how anyone can be saved. How often did Jesus say, “follow me”? So, that’s what I intend to do, and I love having fellowship with people who are doing the same.
The Bible doesn’t preclude anyone from seeking Jesus, or following Him. The only ones that I am aware of that won’t be included in Heaven are those who don’t have an honest relationship with Him. Or those who won’t forgive, or those who speak against the Holy Spirit (Blasphemy). Only the individual knows if they are being honest and following Jesus, and allowing God to work within. Not for anyone else to judge that.
Keep seeking, I plan to keep on too!
@No Secrets I understand that in our human minds someone needs to organize things.
But, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, whoever was the older, was who the younger ones were to learn from. They weren’t behaving like the overseers of today are. The first twelve had intimate knowledge (by observation) of Jesus life, and his love for mankind (his Jewish neighbors), and when he sent the 70 they were to go to every city where he would go. But, NONE of them were “overseers”. I don’t think the workers should be appointing the Elders either. They spend a week at most with a family every six months or so, anyone can behave for a week! But, the Elders and friends spend more time with the people (part of why we are encouraged to gather and spend time with one another). So, since the Elders are referred to as the “overseers”, shouldn’t they be the ones to appoint any new Elder?
If people are paying attention, like we should be, you can tell if a man is beating his wife or children, or they are afraid of him. I know I’m not the only one who’s caught children/wifw ducking when their father/husband raised his hand to push his hair out of his eyes or to cross his arms, or a wife avoiding conversation with other women to be sure she doesn’t let anything slip, or wives/children wearing long pants and long sleeves to cover bruises in the dead of summer. We have an elder here that shouldn’t be one. He was a good dad, and as far as I know a good husband, but he was vulger and ugly to others on several occasions, and has handled “issues” in very ungodly ways to the point of offending. Yes, it’s wrong to take offense, but when taken to task over it, he has yet to apologize (happened over a year ago). The offended party has told me they have forgiven him, but the elder won’t allow any meet up to give opportunity for a visit. Pretty sad. I also think the congregation should be included in some way (perhaps anonymous letters of affirmation or denial), because they would know things that others don’t too. Just because someone doesn’t want to drive an hour each way to meeting doesn’t mean a meeting should be put closer to home…if there’s not a home that’s as described in I Timothy 3, then it shouldn’t be put anywhere until there is! I’ve lived in many places (temporarily) where meetings are 45 minutes to an hour+ away, and it takes some planning, but my thinking is, “how can you miss an opportunity to meet with God and His people”…so, we make it work!
I just think Jesus nixed them having one over the others, because he understood human nature like he did, and the struggle it was even for Him to keep that nature under control.
I’m not against the ministry, and I am thankful for those who are keeping true to their calling, and making sure they are walking what they preach.
Unfortunately, there are still too many “overseers” who don’t walk what they preach, and who by their choices and decisions make it plain and clear that God isn’t going to tell THEM what to do! Then, they wonder why there’s no young people offering for the ministry? Which will bring us to Luke 18…When Jesus returns, will he find faith on the earth? These overseers are damaging to the faith of the sheep.
henoffour,
Thanks for your well thought out response. I understand where you’re coming from – we’ve had a lot of things come to the surface that has made us question things. However, this of not having overseers, I don’t know that I can agree with you that it is so according to the Bible. I do agree that things were taken quite to an extreme – it seems like younger workers were expected to be seen and not heard for many years and treated like children, expected to fit in and be submissive. However, I think a lot of that was societal – I haven’t seen any of that for years. I just wonder what you think of the letters Paul wrote to Timothy? It seems that Paul was instructing Timothy to set things in order in the churches. Was it just advice, and Timothy looking up to Paul and maybe Timothy would or wouldn’t do it? Or was Timothy expected to do as Paul asked? Some say Timothy was a young worker, but it seems he had been one for a while now. You feel quite able to size up the overseers – feeling that most are not right. You seem pretty confident in your judgment of the workers, who has the Spirit, who doesn’t etc. When we are not in positions of responsibility we can use such casual judgement and opinion and no one thinks too much of it. But could you do the same as an overseer? Seems you’re not happy with their many opinions and judgments of the friends. If the friends suddenly appointed you as overseer, would you be able to reign in your own opinions, or do you think your opinions are in fact actual correct scriptural interpretation? Do you see yourself as a modern day Paul, who stood alone with a correct understanding that even those who had actually been with Jesus didn’t have? You’re not the only one here with strong opinions and judgments – in fact I’m one of them myself. But I respond to you because you have the ability to be thoughtful and kind in your responses in spite of differences in opinions/perspectives. I think that’s key for bringing lasting effectual change. It’s easy to let our emotions run away with us and lash out at each other, but even though we have been hurt and disappointed, we rise above the control of our emotions for the sake of being a part of a God-sanctioned Christ-centered solution that will benefit ourselves and all who come after us.
@No Secret I appreciate your responses too, and feel if everyone would read and pray and enter into conversations like this, and with the Spirit leading as we look to the scriptures…we could have things turned around pretty quick.
I think I should maybe set the record straight as to where I’m coming from, and that it’s not just my opinion on what I am stating. My husband and I have family in almost every state and province, and friends/workers in many countries around the world, that we keep in touch with. We also had young people’s get-togethers (40-60 kids for a three day stint), and all of them are now adults, most married with children not. They too love this fellowship, and are struggling like the rest of us to grasp what has been taking place, and the continued abuse by the overseers towards women and children in their states/provinces/countries, and abuse towards whole families who have brought things forward (again) that they were told to just go home and be quiet “because the whole world doesn’t need to be informed of ONE transgression” (which there never is “just one”). Now the whole world knows that these overseers have chosen to pander to the abuser that groomed them, than to do the right thing. So, in their allowing others to control them, instead of God’s Spirit – which always points us to the right path of how to deal with things, we see what’s really driving them, Power and authority, and favor with their buddies…but, God is being left out. People say I’m judging, but looking at the outcome of ones choices isn’t judgement, it’s the consequence revealed of poor choices. I call a duck a duck too, but that doesn’t mean I’m judging the duck. They eat slugs. That’s just a fact, that’s not judgement. I will admit, because I am outspoken, I am often the target of those who don’t appreciate my/our stance on things. Which has given me/us a birds-eye view of who certain people really are, from sea to shining sea and beyond. However, we are also the ones who are frequently called upon when there are ‘issues’ that are too big, or there needs to be eyes on the ground for. Not fun, but we do pray that we can be useful, and we must be honest in our prayer life. We are told to put on the whole armor of God, and who wears armor? Soldiers. We are to wear it because we have been called to the fight for our souls and that of our comrades. We don’t put on armor to go on spiritual vacation.
Matthew 18 is very clear what Jesus had to say about any in the ministry being above another. Some that have responded to me (many in private) have commented that Paul (or one of the disciples) was technically an overseer. No, he was simply one who had intimate knowledge of the scripture, and the Spirit of God working within, so his decisions and actions were ones that could be trusted by his peers. That didn’t raise him above, just allowed Timothy to have respect for him. There were others in the ministry at that time that Timothy could have written to, but maybe he had seen things in the others that worried him some, and Timothy knew he could trust that Paul would give Godly advice. Or perhaps he felt Paul was closer to him distance wise and he’d get a speedier response than someone two countries away. I have no doubt that Timothy was also praying and getting help from above, and perhaps was looking for reassurance or confirmation, from another who he trusted that was also seeking advice from above. I’ve done that many times. Not because I could only ask the overseer a question, or the older worker in our field, but I asked the one I knew was actually reading and praying (from testing the Spirits like the scripture tells us to do). Some claim that our current “overseers” are just doing as Paul did, and that’s not true either. I know for a fact that they have turned their position into one of council for marriages, for family brawls, for financial advice, for medical advice, and on and on…and that’s NOT listed in Jesus instruction to any of those He called and sent! When people contact them, the proper response SHOULD be, It would be best for you to contact your Elder, as he would have more intimate knowledge on that subject. The Elders were referred to as the Overseers no doubt because they had a closer eye view of what’s actually happening, and what help within a community would be available, what married life looks like, what it’s like to raise children, and how to protect them from predators or bullies, etc. If an Elder gets out of line, then the people who are attending meetings in his home need to gather and write a letter to the Elders of that state, who can then remove the meeting from that home and move it to another home, or the people scattered into other meetings that are healthy.
When I came back to this fellowship, I vowed to Follow Jesus. Not the workers, not my parents, not my siblings, not my friends…only Jesus. Because, God sent Him to bring His message to mankind. We had a worker when I was in my young teen years, that frequently said, “if I have said anything that doesn’t sound right to you, please help me”. I appreciated that, because even in the Bible there were those who helped Paul when he got off track, and I believe that account was purposefully included in the Bible because there are times – like today, that the ministry or even one minister can get off track. We do want to have respect, and I do, for those who are following the scripture, and those who seek help and accept it. If I am off track, I would hope that my soul would be loved enough that those who are following Jesus would reach out and help me! I do not believe I am alone in my thinking, stand, or words…in fact, I know I am not, because I have many friends and family who are like minded. But, they know that if they were to write to their overseer, they would be tossed out in a heart-beat for “insubordination”. Their overseers aren’t remembering that THEY do not have any authority over someone’s salvation, and are putting themselves in danger (Luke 17). The workers (including the overseers) are messangers. I’m not judging the overseer, but rather their actions and their position. Because we DO know what Jesus said.
It’s good to hear that in your area that the younger workers are not being treated as though they don’t matter. That’s not so in most of the world today. I know of one who was starting out, went to visit family in another state. The overseer was extremely rude to him when he was simply there to visit family during their convention time, he wasn’t there as a worker. The overseer called him to his quarters and asked “what he was doing at this convention?”, and he answered, “visiting family before I head to my field”, and the overseer said, “If You think you are going to be put on the speaking list, you’re mistaken, you need to go home and get some experience before you can preach in my state”. Can you imagine? God called this young man into HIS ministry because HE trusted him…and this earthly man is telling him he’s not worthy to preach? (which he wasn’t wanting to do anyways, but that’s beside the point).
I would not agree to be an overseer for these reasons: 1) Jesus didn’t institute that position. 2) because I wouldn’t qualify to be one. I’m an Elder’s wife. 3) Godly Elders need to stand up and say “enough” WE are following Jesus from this point forward! 4) Women are still thought okay to abuse by many of the current overseers, so I would have no effect on their stances on anything. 5) IF it were an actual scriptural position, I am sure there are others that are far more qualified than I.
But, again, I think the Elders should get together and choose two sister workers and two brother workers (which can be changed out at any time, should they get out of line and refuse to get back in line). Which would fix the issue of “how do we get rid of these abusive overseers?” These same four workers would just be in their fields like everyone else, and taking the message of Jesus to help heal the sick…etc. The MESSAGE being what’s doing the healing, etc. These four could put the worker’s lists together of who’s to be with who and where, and things like that. If there’s an “issue” they need to bring the Elders together and discuss it with them, and together with the Elders can come up with a way to address it, but it should be the local Elder to take that back to the person in their meeting that’s got/or causing the ‘issue’. Because that Elder is responsible to Jesus sheep that are in his care. This would leave the workers to have time to go out and preach, and share the Gospel as they were called to do, and take the enormous burden off of them, that they are NOT equipped to deal with, like the Elders are. Some have written “that’s a lot to ask of an Elder”, no one is forced to become an Elder. If they don’t feel they are capable, then it’s okay to say “no”. No where in the Bible does it say “there HAS to be a meeting in this exact location” people have cars now days and can drive a distance. There’s people in this world that WALK for four hours each way, just to get to meet with God and His Son and those of like faith, because it’s a privilege. No where in the Bible does it say “meetings are to only be ONE hour”…where are you racing off to? Much of what we do…there’s no scripture for. Just because certain things have been done for 80 or 100 years, doesn’t make it right! Some think the fellowship has prospered because of past decisions and that it’s working beautifully – I disagree. It’s prospered in spite of poor leadership, because God will always find a way to reach the lost and seeking sheep, and he will keep their eyes lifted to not focus on the wrong that’s taking place. Before Therold Sylvester passed he was staying in our home for a couple of weeks, and we got to visiting about his time in the ministry, and he admitted there were things he wished he had done differently (decisions) and he was trying to rectify them before it was too late.
The more I learn about Dean Bruers last days, the more I realize just how merciful God was being to him to get him to stop what he was doing, and make things right, and he chose himself over God. He had privilege after privelege (conventions) in the weeks just before God sent the death angel. Quite a thing to witness in our generation…a terrible thing. Should be a warning to all. God has mercy in his patience, but for how long? Those that abuse, will have a very rude awakening. So, we choose to forgive, but we aren’t and shouldn’t be expected to have fellowship with them (because prudence is righteous in this situation), and we seek God and get the help we can from local “experts” so we have the tools we need to make it through this life. Any sane, God fearing adult, would understand what nature teaches us…you don’t put a sly fox into a hen house as a guard animal and expect the fox to change it’s nature. Same with predators of the human race.
@no Secrets I meant to say that the young people’s get-togethers were something we did over a 13 year period.
Spot on. Thank you.
Wings, my “Spot on” comment should go under Watchman’s comment here about accountability. Thank you.
The Admin function has limited tools. Can edit or delete but can’t move or change author name.
OK thank you. For some reason, Watchman’s post doesn’t have a “reply” button.
You should reply to No Secrets and your comment will go into that sub thread.
The settings for this WordPress theme limit comments to 3 levels deep. Watchman’s comment is at the third level so replies would have to be done as a new level one post
Wings, could you please also put this under Watchman’s comment about accountability? Thanks for your hard work!! (You can take this paragraph out of my comment!
Watchman, more on this. The way you outlined accountability is very helpful. For the F&W ministry, worker>overseer>nobody is how it is currently operating. Yes, we would all say, “But they’re accountable to God!” They are…until they’re not, as we have seen.
It seems the way it was in Acts was worker>elders>church. It’s not that the church called, sent, or appointed the ministry (that’s God’s job), but the church was certainly very involved in pretty much every gathering and meeting where issues and problems were being discussed or when decisions needed to be made. The church was involved when Mathias was chosen to replace Judas, on the day of Pentecost, in the Jerusalem council, etc. It’s even highly possible many were present at the Passover meal prior to Jesus’ crucifixion.
How then does the church help keep the minister accountable? By testing and by inspecting fruit as Jesus taught (“Watch out for false prophets…”) Jesus also commended the Ephesian church for testing those who said they were apostles and finding them false (Rev. 2). Additionally, Paul reprimanded the Corinthian church for not putting out of their gathering one who was having sex with his step-mother. (Today, we would expect the workers to do this, not the church.)
I’m not sure if this “whole church” approach has ever been practiced to its full extent in this group since the group’s inception with William Irvine, etc., but I do believe it lines up most closely with Jesus’ teachings and how the New Testament church operated. What if the whole church became more involved in every decision? What if instead of a “workers’ meeting” it was a “whole church meeting” where issues were discussed (by region)? Once a year? Twice a year? Regionally?
I did not include “overseer” in that accountability chain because the early church didn’t seem to operate that way in Jesus’ time nor in the New Testament church. Paul and Peter didn’t talk about their overseer, nor about their fields of responsibility, etc. They operated a lot more autonomously. I do understand the need for someone to have the administrative role of overseeing things, but Jesus taught against elevating anyone. Maybe a rotating overseership?
Interesting that in mentioning overseers you mention Peter and Paul, saying they didn’t have overseers. As close as I can tell they pretty well preformed the functions of overseers in their day. They didn’t divide things by region but divided between the one going to the Jews and the other to the gentiles. Paul often spoke of the different ministers he sent to the various churches. I love the picture of Paul nurturing the young ministers that went with him and giving them responsibilities in the appointment of elders. I love it because it is the same picture I have seen so often in our area.
Peter and Paul were not overseers, but rather ones that the younger ones could learn from. As it should be with ALL the ministry today. Jesus made it clear none of them were to be elevated above any of the others. The Elders were referred to as the Overseers, who would work together with the ministry. We just need to get back to the way Jesus instructed. That way we aren’t continually having issues with one or two feel they have so much power that anyone says anything they don’t like, they just throw them out, like garbage…even if they are correct, or bringing up uncomfortable subjects again.
Amen is always looking at the workers and then tries so hard to make them fit into what the apostles in the Bible are. The workers aren’t apostles, or anything close to an apostle. The apostles never held their own way of thinking over that of Jesus. “Matthew 20: 25-26, “But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant”. The workers in general act like the rulers of the Gentiles. They love to lord it over others.
Amen: we shudder at the NEED for this Document.
We shudder at the inability of this Document or the people given responsibility to correct or fix this problem.
It gives NO one power or legal authority.
It only gives one more layer of he/she said: they said…
AND more wriggle room for the slick and twisted abuser
(example; the letter from Ira Hobbs in their DEFENSE)who needs immediate; severe and definite consequences .
What is the solution? #1. Begin by learning and Knowing God’s Word as written!
It is a man made problem in a man made religion, and men can only struggle to control. We want to encourage those who try, realizing they are open to huge failure for the victims. We shudder for them.
Both of the scriptures given as basis for this are not ARE NOT OF nor ARE THE “Doctrine” of the Gospel of Kingdom of Heaven on EARTH: preached by Jesus in His fleshly ministry to God’s Chosen Nation of Israel “back to God”.
How and Why would followers of Jesus and His 12 witnesses who Not Only worshipped in the Temple but all their “”believers”” continued ‘steadfastly in the “Apostles Doctrine’ also worshipped in the Temple: continuing Daily with one accord in the “temple”!
Acts 2:42 – :46.
How and why would followers of the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth; only to Jews: imitate and DO a Doctrine of the Grace of God; sent to Gentiles by the Apostle Paul; sent to Gentiles by the “risen – ascended’ Christ!
Amen: We find your running dialog very interesting. Jesus; the very God, the Son; he was preparing for the end of His ministry to bring that Nation of Israel back to God: was molding and forming a ministry = a-Government to replace that very Government appointed by the Law given by God to Moses. That Government, in The Temple of God for God’s set apart people::: was corrupt!!!; was far from God!!!.
Inspite of ALL the prophesies of the Fathers and the Prophets in the (Luke 24:44) “Law of Moses”
and the “prophets”
and in the “Psalms”, concerning me(Jesus);;;
this Government of God’s Past, Present and Future “KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ON Earth” DID NOT know Jesus was their promised King, their Saviour = Messiah, and Judge.
AND yes, THAT Government of God’s Chosen Nation WAS Corrupt!!
Matthew 21:33-:46 SOOOO very “corrupt” – THAT Jesus informed them – 21:42 – :43 — the “Kingdom of God” shall be taken from you!!
What was Jesus solution? YES, Just before his crucifixion!
((Luke 22:28 – :29 = Matthew 19 :28)) JUST BEFORE Jesus asked- Luke 22:36 – HIS 11 to sell their garment and buy a sword.
22:41 He was withdrawn from them….and prayed
:42 nevertheless NOT my WILL, BUT Thine, be Done….
:43 And there appeared an”angel” from heaven
strengthening him”.
22:47 while he yet spake — a multitude…. and Judas… to kiss Him…
Yes: just in Jesus’ ‘final hours’; Jesus solution for a GOVERNMENT for His Nation of Israel WAS and IS Luke 22:28 – 29 and Math. 19:28!
Yes, “Jesus” appointed a government for HIS NATION of Israel on a “perfect’ EARTH for a 1000 years.
That Government was the 12 chosen; appointed Apostles in Acts 1; and 2: Revelation 20:4 AND that is who and what the 2×2’s are.
Revelation 21:1. AND even in ETERNITY a New Earth;
Revelation 21:2 the Spirit showed John “The Holy City” ==
“The New Jerusalem” coming down from God OUT of Heaven
AND, AND: Yes, even then; in that New Jerusalem God honors those 12 chosen appointed “apostles” as his witnesses – His Government.
BY Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had 12 foundations, and in the “Foundations” the “Names of the “”TWELVE” “APOSTLES” of the Lamb.!!!!
In light of these scriptures; and many more: God’s written Holy WORD – our Holy Bible informs and teaches US we have been
“hood-winked”::!! Yes, by the Traditions of Men.
If and since all believe that the 12 are the example AND THE WAY:
“Amen” and “henoffour”; you are the typical mislead 2×2’s. How does this relate to the sexual abuse in the 2×2’s by the workers?
It is to and of their god: ((Ira Hobbs letter is satan’s reaction))
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.Their reaction is no MARVEL: it is who they are
:13 Transforming themselves into the “Apostles of Christ”
:14 no marvel: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light
:15 Therefore —– You read that in your Bible in black and white.
Because Paul in Ephesians 6:11 explains how to AVOID being mislead by the “wiles of “the devil”! Jesus warns his apostles Math 24:5, :6
That is correct! This is something with-in-your-ability. You are BOTH very intelligent and well versed in the Doctrine of the 2×2’s. You are very capable to express yourselves.
The solution for you to discern God’s mind and will IS TO READ
Ephesians 6:17. YOU READ each WORD carefully
THEN you put on the “helmet of salvation”
AND the sword of the Spirit ((Hebrews 4:12 a divider – a discerner..))
which is the WORD of God! ((Yes, it is a LOT of Work and time))
Your biggest challenge WILL BE “willing to UNLEARN” before you can begin to to learn what is actually WRITTEN in God’s WORD.
But result will be: you will understand Why, How, and What the problem of CSA?SA has flourished. And shudder at a fellowship that bred and encouraged while protecting the abuser! While degrading and destroying the innocent victims.
Astounded, while your criticisms of Amen and Henoffour may or may not be valid, it would be worthwhile to consider the efficacy of your own posts which appear to be nearly zero.
Long rants of biblical rhetoric, no doubt well meaning, do little good for anyone but the anti-2×2 converted Christians at most, providing none of the answers that you claim exist in scripture.
@ astounded: I feel for you. You seem to think I’m oblivious to Jesus teachings, but then babble on and take scripture pieces from here and there to justify your opinion. I have spent the past three months reading through Matthew slowly and very carefully about Jesus, who he was talking to, what he taught, etc.
One thing I gleaned from it, is that God doesn’t expect different things from different groups of people. The Jews were ‘the chosen’ people of God, but because THEY judged Themselves unworthy, the Gentiles (meaning everyone else) was then included, because more than anything, God wants a family. The judgment’day’ is taking place, and we prove by our choices and the love we show to one another, and the attitude we have towards another, all are important to our salvation. I am completely on the victims side, and agree the predators need to be out and turned in to the local authorities. I have been in the fight (forefront) against allowing the predators in ANY meetings. I’m completely confused about all that the “overseers” are doing/allowing. I disagree with the fact that there’s any scripture to even substantiate the position of an overseer. It’s true the ministry was referred to as “the overseers of our souls” (Hebrews) meaning they would pray for us, and bring Jesus words to us, but Jesus made it clear one wasn’t to be above another in the ministry.
I’m not against anyone, we all need to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. There’s no need to throw barbs. Anger just shows we don’t have the Spirit of God. So, do what gives you peace.
Get real- I don’t know where you have experienced this lording process? All I can say it is not my experience. The workers that I have had the privilege of having fellowship with have been helpers of my joy. Their words and lives have simply taught me and nourished me. Sorry if when I see good in others it offends you.
Amen — “Interesting that in mentioning overseers you mention Peter and Paul, saying they didn’t have overseers. As close as I can tell they pretty well preformed the functions of overseers in their day”. Yes, Dean Bruer was, “As close as I can tell they pretty well preformed the functions of overseers in their day”. Amen, you are so close to the woods that you can’t see the trees. Dean Bruer was no apostle. No Peter or Paul. Amen — you would have LOVED Dean Bruer. You would have been slobbering all over him. Him being a worker, no, a HEAD worker, you would have pulled out your best beef roast. ” Friends ” that hold the workers in the same esteem as Jesus (and many do) just do not make sense — in other than they are in a cult. Cult leaders will do that. The trouble is, you would probably have not seen Dean Bruer. Head man Dean was checked in at the Best Western with an under age girl.
Cult life- interesting that my seeing good in the workers I have had fellowship with that you bring up Dean Bruer. It is obvious to all of us that he was not a follower of Jesus. He is only a man I have heard about so I don’t know where throughout his life he stood with Jesus. Glad that God is the judge because he knows. From Jesus teachings in the parables he could have received good seed at one time, but the soil was not good soil so the wrong fruit eventually came forth, or he was a tare planted by the enemy? Glad that Jesus warned us that this will happen in His kingdom. If I had ever met him hopefully I would have detected a wrong spirit. But again from the parables that may not be the case. I personally know some who met him and did not detect a wrong spirit. Glad these things are in Gods hand,
Amen, yes, you would have found it a joy and privilege to host Dean Bruer. “The workers that I have had the privilege of having fellowship with have been helpers of my joy.” You never mention any worker you did not get joy from and yet you have been around many, many decades. In all that time you no doubt have had the “privilege” and “joy” of hosting workers that were/ are child sex offenders, or have committed sexual assaults, or spiritually abused others. But to you, and a great many with your way of thinking, if they’re a “worker”, it’s a privilege and joy just being in their blessed presence.
?– You never mention any worker you did not get joy from and yet you have been around many, many decades. In all that time you no doubt have had the “privilege” and “joy” of hosting workers that were/ are child sex offenders, or have committed sexual assaults, or spiritually abused others You say no doubt? And you base your accusation on what? No not every worker or every friend has been perfect . As Jesus told us, not all that receive the good seed will go on to produce good fruit. Many will fall away for many different reasons.when I see those not living a perfect life I prefer to pray for them and try to help them. I would regather be like that man who’s lord found the fig tree not bearing fruit and was told to cut it down, and replied to his lord let me dig about it and dung it. If it bear fruit well. If not YOU cut it down.
The short answer to your accusation is no there has never been a predator in our home or in our meeting. The children were precious to us. At one time there were 45 children in our meeting.
Watchman: Thank you for your un- informed opinion. The ONLY reason the ‘efficacy’ is near zero IS because you are unwilling or unable to read God’s Word as written! We encourage you to be honest and use common sense as you take-off your 2×2′ glasses and READ-as written; your Holy Bible.
Also, you are correct, Quoting scripture as written, to whom it was written, and why it was written: do “little good” for anyone who has been blinded by the wiles of the “devil”. Your only recourse to stand against that power; is the whole armour of God.
As is true of any SCAM: being informed is your defense. That is why being ‘informed’ after you have DONE Ephesians 6:13-18; is of utmost importance as you actually read, learn and know (“Ephesians 6:17”) “”the Word of God”” as written and NOT as the traditions of men – add to; subtract from; and just basically ignore – as written.
AND your attitude is typical to the very attitude of one who is unable to know the wiles of satan and does NOT care.
Pray to God to remove your blinders, as it is evident you are also a very thoughtful and intelligent person; concerned about the criminal abuse of our defenseless and our very vulnerable children who have a learned behaviour of trusting those who parade as servants of God.
Watchman:
Thank you for your expression of your protection of Amen and henoffour. We did NOT know they needed protected.
Protected from what? Actually knowing What is written in our Holy Bibles? You are correct! Our efficacy is near Zero. Because of blinded minds by a man made religion. We were in “your condition for decades”.
Look at this as: Don’t bother me with the fact that ‘2×2’s’ follow the 12 apostles from the very beginning. Even when God’s Word records in black and white WHAT the Apostle’s Doctrine is! Watchman; show how the 2×2’s are following the Apostles Doctrine in Acts 2:42-:46 .
((Our mistake would be to add: and continuing thru Acts 7:. as that is too much to read and wrap ones mind around, even tho the same things are recorded to show a pattern for the 12 Apostle’s Doctrine))
Sorry, that is our mistake; trying to show God’s consistent, continuing doctrine.
So, Watchman, this is Not in anger, or in condemnation of anyone. This is actually just asking you to read God’s Word as written.
Watchman; we are very much interested in your answer to the apostle’s Doctrine in Acts 2:42-:46. Thank you.
henoffour;
Thank you for your criticism. We realize now that we include more than one verse; to verify the Doctrine of God’s Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. The Gospel of the Kingdom -Jesus preached to God’s chosen Nation of Israel was only to that Nation of Israel. Matthew 15:24. Jesus’ words to a NON-Jew. Jesus said He could Not give the “children’s (Israel’s) bread to dogs =Non circumcisied Gentiles.
WHY?
We are sorry you feel God’s Word is ‘babble’. We also do not understand your comment of barbs and anger. Please explain as we do not feel that way. We only now trust in God’s Word as written.
We are grateful you spent 3 months studying Matthew. We found as we study, it is hard to retain what is actually written. As a result we had to write down the verse and what it said to whom Jesus was talking.
We had to do the same with what Jesus actually taught.
That removed our opinion. We had that for decades. Now, we only want to know what God has actually written for our learning.
We have some questions for you.
Why did the Jews judge themselves unworthy?
We are interested in your statement that: the gentiles were then included. When were they included? Why then?
Why were they not included from the very beginning of God’s promise to Abram of a great Nation.
In what did God include the Gentiles? How? What was required? And how many of them were accepted?
We understand from your posts that you are a very caring and knowledge person about victims of abuse. That is a very intense and demanding expertise. BUT is very rewarding. Thank you.
Astounded. Whoa, I am worried about you. The fact that you read into my post that I am “protecting” Amen and henoffour is, well, astounding as there is no hint of “protection” in my post. Your reading comprehension level of 21st century English precludes your frequent intimation of a superior scriptural knowledge of ancient texts.
Now consider this if you have actually read your bible: the bible allows CSA. Let that sink in, take your time. Ask if you are not sure about this. Where your superior biblical knowledge really goes off the rails is that you claim the answer to CSA is in the bible which allows CSA! It cannot be reconciled.
I suggest you start reading your bible objectively and try to gain some understanding of it as a whole and in detail. You are picking a bias and making the bible fit. That really doesn’t work. It is like creating a God in your image, same thing.
Amen, if you don’t see this happening within the fellowship, then you’ve been very sheltered. I love those in the ministry that were called by God, that they are truly sharing the message Jesus gave, and are walking it themselves. We just had one here this week, and it was a joy to have fellowship. But, he isn’t an overseer, and technically has no voice in decisions. The percentage of overseers that aren’t walking what they preach is in the high 90’s. Say one word they don’t like, or bring an accusation against anyone of their buddies…and YOU are thrown out, even if it’s been proven that what you told was true. Just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. It’s why so many are so up in arms, because they have been involved, seen, or stopped a wrong…and were publically chastened or tossed out. There’s still secrecy being allowed, and sending workers who have done wrong off to other lands where unsuspecting people will be the new targets for these predators…I know this, and I am currently trying to stop it from happening! For the sake of those sheep, I hope like everything sanity will reign and they will be spared. I grew up very sheltered. Our friends were very healthy and loved the fellowship and is any of us kids got out of line, any parent would (and did) give us “the look” or take us aside and tell us to stop it. We lived close to a major airport, so we had company pretty much every week, and cars stored at our family home from a weekend to months on end (we kids liked it because we got to go out and start their vehicles and sit in them while they were running, and pretended we were driving – ha!) I grew up knowing most of the workers from Alaska, and British Columbia to the Mexican Border because they had stayed in our home at some point. Some brought the Spirit, and some didn’t. I remember as a child pondering why some adults (never heard it from either of my parents) thought this person or that one was “So nice to be in their meetings”…because I knew better. Not because I was assaulted (ha! I would have punched them in the throat had they tried something like that, because I was a scrapper). But, other’s weren’t so lucky. I just wouldn’t listen when they were speaking, and let them know I wasn’t listening too – lol. A few years would go by and they would leave the work. Not because of me, but because they weren’t in the work for the right reason. Anyways, please don’t take offense, or feel like you are personally being attacked. I tell you all this, because, People are hurting and their overseers are not following Jesus, our Lord and Savior, and that’s terrifying and sad.
Hey amen, find out what the brilliant overseers in California have emailed to all of the workers and friends in Calif and Az. about removing two sisters workers that have a combined 70-80 years of service. Totally despicable. And a lie.
PD- I have no knowledge of the letter you speak about, nor any knowledge of the accusations it contains. If you know that the letter contains lies then I would hope you would be very outspoken about that to any and all who are involved. If it were happening here, I would not rest until truth prevailed. Speak up.
“there has never been a predator in our home or in our meeting”. …Ignorance is bliss.
Back again back again time in thy flight I have the comeback I needed last night. On the other hand I will declare you the winner and just go on with my blissful ignorance. Happy Thanksgiving.
There’s not any human that can detect every predator. Plus, because they are so prevalent, they have no doubt been in every meeting that anyone has ever attended. That’s just a fact. Their sole purpose of coming to meeting is to seek a victim. The Friends are easy targets, because we generally try to believe “there’s good in everyone present, or surely they wouldn’t want to be present “ …because we don’t think like criminals do!
Some have asked “do you believe in forgiveness for child sexual abusers?” My answer is: “Yes! 100%…IF THEY:
1) Admit they are wrong
2) Admit to every child the abused (because there is ZERO % chance “there’s only one”)
3) Make amends by turning themselves in, so they can face consequences
4) In their desire to serve God, be forgiven, and their love for mankind and the Kingdom they would CHOOSE to NEVER put themselves in any situation or potential situation where there’d possibly be a child present. Cherishing fellowship only with those that wouldn’t be a temptation, at times when it’s convenient for others.
yes forgiveness is something most of us fall very short in. It’s hard to read Mathew 18 and continue on in unforgiveness. Jesus in his answer to Peter said we are to forgive someone 7×70. It also says we are not to let the sun go down on our wrath. So 490 times in a 12 hour period works out to a forgiveness every 3 minutes. Of course forgiveness and fellowship are two very different things. Even God cannot have fellowship with an unrepentant person, and nether can we.
Amen, the letter is out there, written by Kent (I’m so important) Williston and signed by three other male workers in California. If you know anyone in California, worker or friend, they will likely have it. It is sickening.
Watchman:
Thank you for your worry. Now we are ready for you to actually show us where, how and when Our Bible allows CSA. Backing-up our Bibical statements with exact verses is the very reason for the efficacy problem.
Now, you have our attention and we will excuse your opinion; please help us find these acceptable, allowable record of CSA. And your efficacy percentage will be 100%.