My journey from fear of worker retribution to a deeper trust in God
By Ashley (Williams) Hom
Months ago, after reading the Canadian Elder’s beautifully expressed letter on Wings For Truth, I was moved to share my own story. It’s taken some time to pull my thoughts together and have the courage to share my story. But that Canadian Letter has stayed with me, I have lived that letter, it echoes my own heart and thoughts. The ending of his letter, the part about not sharing his name for fear of retribution, triggered something within me and inspired me to share my own journey. My journey from fear of the perceived power of workers, to God’s help and guidance to not fear workers and their ability to “take away privileges” or abuse me (spiritually or physically).
For context, my husband and I have a regular Sunday meeting in our home and several of the union meetings per year in our home here in Colorado. We love our fellowship meetings and the sweet friends and workers here in Colorado.
This is my story, my journey from fear to a deeper trust in God:
My parents had a family cabin in Northern Montana. Beginning in the early 90s, we spent most of my childhood vacation time there, and my husband and I were married there. I moved from Minnesota to Montana to attend college full-time in the early 2000s. I knew the overseer Dean Bruer fairly well; we overlapped in a lot of different places (Wyoming and Montana meetings/gospel meetings/conventions) and I admired him and respected him. I decided to schedule a meeting with him in 2009 because my heart was hurting around an issue that felt wrong. I felt a need for understanding and mercy around an issue Dean ruled very harshly on. I drove from Missoula (where I owned a home) to Bozeman in October of 2009 to meet with Dean at the Manhattan Convention grounds. I was welcomed to the house by the woman who lived there. She was the only one home besides Dean and Scott Rauscher. I came with a tender heart and an open mind. I was originally only going to meet with Dean, but these verses came to me, Matthew 18:6 “But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.”
I knew Scott Rauscher was in the area as well, so I invited him to join our meeting, or he was already at the house, I don’t remember that detail exactly. I thought it would be helpful to have Scott in the room to hear what was on my heart. I met the men in the kitchen and then they led me to another room, they said they wanted to talk in private. When we got into the room, they shut the door behind us, and I remember the room being dark, especially given it was in the middle of the day.
There were only two chairs in the room, the two men sat down and then looked at me and pointed to the floor. They said I should kneel or sit before them. I was feeling so humble and grateful they would meet with me, I didn’t think twice about kneeling before them, so I did. Through a broken heart and tears I tried to explain how my heart was hurting that my dad and many other faithful Godly people couldn’t take part in meetings. I’m not going to dive into the divorce and remarriage issue here, because no matter where you land on the topic, workers should not treat anyone the way they treated me.
I was on my knees pouring out my heart before these two workers, asking for help and understanding of their thinking. I respected these two workers so much and looked up to them as leaders in our church. I asked why a man in the Bozeman meeting who was convicted of sexually molesting his three children was allowed to take part in a meeting with young adults, but people like my dad, who had been faithfully married for 30 years, a Godly man and a wonderful dad, couldn’t? My dad had been silenced in the meetings for 30 years. Then in Minnesota the workers “pardoned” him, and he could take part again after 30 years of silence in MN. However, in Montana divorced and remarried people are not allowed to ever take part in a meeting. Elders in Montana even made it a point to be sure my dad wasn’t allowed to touch or pass the emblems on Sunday.
After asking Dean and Scott for some mercy and explanation of their thoughts on the matter, to my surprise, the two men just laughed at me, made fun of me, belittled me and asked some very odd questions, such as if my brother and I were biological siblings, which we are. But what an odd detail to ask about, given my brother lives in MN and I didn’t even know the workers knew I had a brother, it felt creepy. I remember Dean looking at Scott and saying, “can you even imagine getting remarried?!” and then they both laughed really hard, a very cold mean laugh. (Interesting how sometimes the most self-righteous have the most to hide)
They thought the whole thing was so funny. What felt so off at the time was how the two men were in full lockstep in their thinking and words. Everything Dean said and did, Scott would agree and mimic Dean’s behavior. I remember thinking, I shouldn’t have invited Scott, now these two men are easily ganging up on me and it felt horrible and scary. Whatever I was expecting out of that meeting, this wasn’t it. There was a harsh ruthlessness to their demeanor.
After they continued berating and laughing at me for most of an hour, I decided I’d heard enough, and the Lord put it on my heart to leave. When I stood up to leave, they both reached out to touch me (I can’t remember who, but someone touched my shoulder and knee) and both said “don’t leave. I said “Oh, I’m leaving”. That’s when the hair on the back of my neck stood up and I thought, “Oh I need to get out of here quick!” So, I left in a hurry! I was absolutely devastated by the experience!!
Over the next few days, I called my family and a few close friends to share my experience. To this day those friends and family remember me calling them in despair. I’d never been disappointed by a worker before, not like that, so I was crushed. I still thought they were right, and I was somehow off the narrow way; that I was missing something. It was one of the few times I’ve had suicidal thoughts. I was just hurting so much myself, and hurting for all the people I knew Dean and Scott were affecting with their hard ruling on re-marriage.
Then, a few months later, I didn’t get any sister workers for special meeting rounds in Missoula. (I had a room for workers and had sisters come stay all the previous years I lived there).
So, I asked Scott at a special meeting, “Why no sister workers this year?” He said, “sometimes we lose privileges”.
I was too naive at the time, and it took me some time to understand what he meant. I now understand that because I went to him and Dean with a different opinion and asking questions on a matter, that I would “lose privileges”.
It was very hurtful at the time and one of the hardest emotional things I’ve had to overcome in my life; I truly feel for those who were also physically harmed by Dean. But in God’s wisdom and help our entire family sold our beautiful home in the mountains of West Glacier Montana and moved. In the same week, my brother, Mom, Dad, and I all had on our heart that God said, “Montana is not a healthy spiritual place for you.”
I feel so thankful that God led us out of Montana and to healthier spiritual places. We absolutely loved our home and friends in Montana and to this day I have to pray hard to not look back in remorse at our loss there, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62. It’s wild that two men could have such an influence over the meetings and where we choose to live. Many years later Dean was at Juneau Convention and when I heard him speak in a Sunday meeting before the convention, I broke down in sobs and had to quickly leave the meeting and sobbed for the better part of an hour. His voice was a trigger I had no idea I had; I’d never had anything like that happen before. I can’t even imagine the emotional trauma it must have been for people who were physically abused by Dean and then having to see him again.
I have since become stronger in myself and in my trust in God. Workers and overseers no longer have that power over me, I won’t let them. Workers only have power over our lives and meetings, if we allow them to. We the friends can pray and ask God how to operate our meetings and who should be allowed to share in our meetings and who should be allowed or not at a convention. The workers do not have jurisdiction over our private property or how we choose to encourage and show our love for those we meet with. Do we answer to God or workers? That’s a question I’ve been asking myself, whose approval am I looking for? God’s, I hope.
Workers can’t take away what matters most, our relationship with God and Christ. The workers are not our avenue to our relationship with God, therefore not going to this church does not mean someone has “lost out”, it just means they don’t go to our church. We should pray they continue to seek God, but I hope we move away from judging people’s relationship with God based on whether they attend our church or not, that does not feel like our place.
As my husband helpfully says, “our form is not our faith”. Our church form is intended to inspire our relationship with God and his son and bring joy to us with fellowship, if it is no longer doing that for us, when we need to find another avenue for fellowship.
I no longer feel fear of worker retribution. If a worker takes away a ‘privilege’ because I’ve posted my experience or have spoken up, then I’ll just know that worker is self-righteous, lacks empathy and most likely is dangerous to be around. Learning which workers will take away privileges to those who speak up is an excellent filter for what workers you can or can’t trust. I learned this when everything about Dean came out. I finally understand Dean was the one off the path, not me. I shouldn’t have doubted myself all these years and should have followed my instincts and feelings about Dean. Once I had children, God put on my heart to keep myself and my kids far away from Dean. It was a very strong warning in my heart, and I shared with others to be careful around him. I will work on not doubting my instincts anymore; God has given us these instincts to know who’s safe to be around, both spiritually and naturally.
If we fear retribution for sharing our thoughts and concerns, isn’t that the very culture that leads to the abuse that has been covered up? I feel we need to break free from the fear of overseers/workers, and ask that overseers respect our opinions and experiences, and not punish us for speaking up. Breaking free of this fear could lead to a cultural shift of abuse being appropriately dealt with.
I feel we, the friends, need to take some accountability in all that is going on. I feel we, the friends, have given too much power to the workers, power over our emotions, power over how we operate our meetings on our private property, and power over our lives. I want to put my trust in God more than my trust in workers.
On a more positive note, we are truly grateful for so many of the workers. Most of the workers have been such an encouragement to our family and have fed us tremendously! I personally know many workers who have stood up for what is right and are doing the right thing when they see or hear of bad behavior. I know workers who have reported child abuse to the authorities. I know many workers who have listened with open, loving hearts to people and their concerns. So, my hope is that we, the friends, continue to support the workers who are trying to make our church safer.
I hope our fellowship will continue into the future, become safer and more scriptural. I pray that we, the friends, will search our hearts to help with this effort.
WINGS Note: Posted with permission from the author
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Sad story, but until folks in this group personally get the full treatment by a worker or overseer, most refuse to accept how corrupt this ministry truly is. Thousands of Friends sit silent every Sunday as communion is withheld from certain ones among them, never standing up to challenge this authority for fear of ‘losing out’. Total control. Everyone in this group is in severe bondage, but I don’t know what can ever shake them free.
Elaine S is exactly right when she says, “until folks in this group personally get the full treatment by a worker or overseer, most refuse to accept how corrupt this ministry truly is…Everyone in this group is in severe bondage, but I don’t know what can ever shake them free”. The author of this letter is also right noting, “Workers can’t take away what matters most, our relationship with God and Christ. The workers are not our avenue to our relationship with God, therefore not going to this church does not mean someone has “lost out”, it just means they don’t go to our church”. Not a church, nor religion is going to make a person worthy for entry to heaven. Only Jesus can save lives. Only Jesus is the way to heaven. “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Thank you!! I was taken out of standing for testimony and not taking part of the emblems by Barb Hofer. Because I had the audacity to try to talk to her about my (future) husband and I as friends were going to get to know each other better. Long conversations about our beliefs etc. She was very disrespectful. Yelling that I was crazy.
My husband has since passed away. But I have not started to take part in meetings. I never stopped professing! A person more powerful than God Almighty put me out! Not God. I do not have to take part in their professing traditions to be professing in God’s eye. I am true to God, answer to God.
A worker stopped me from taking part in the traditional forms man has set for meeting. But a worker can’t stop God’s power in my life.
A worker spoke once that you can’t get in except by listening to workers preach?? That was a false prophet statement! There are millions in heaven that have never heard a worker’s speech.
They can take away all earthly privileges. And they have!! But they can’t take God from me. They have not the power. They are dust, just like the rest of us
Nellie, so very sorry to hear about your spiritual abuse at the hands of a worker. Unfortunately you weren’t the first and won’t be the last. You said, “A worker spoke once that you can’t get in (heaven) except by listening to workers preach??”. Also, EVERYONE in the group has got to be baptized by a WORKER, even if they were previously baptized before joining the group. Somehow being baptized by a worker, a human, maybe even a child molester, is the ONLY person qualified to baptize. Workers somehow have the mindset, THEY have the power of God. It is THEM that saves. They don’t. Jesus only does.
Nellie — “I was taken out of standing for testimony and not taking part of the emblems by Barb Hofer. Because I had the audacity to try to talk to her about my (future)… She was very disrespectful. Yelling that I was crazy.” Barb Hofer took you out, Nellie, and Barb wasn’t just a rogue worker. Since then you undoubtedly have sat in numerous meetings with many more workers. Did they reinstate you? No. They were all there to be witness to you remaining silent and did nothing. Except shake your hand after the meeting. Everyone, including your elders, are as self righteous as Barb Hofer that took you out for simply something you said! What you said. Intolerance, arrogance and self righteous in the package of a worker. They also all are as “filthy rags”. With a mouth and power to keep you silent in a meeting.
I’m curious, was your future husband a divorced man, or had you been divorced? Was Barb actually yelling at you, or did it feel that way because you didn’t like what you were hearing? I don’t know the details of your situation, just what you posted, but I feel there’s more to it.
When Ashley is speaking of her Dad, because he’s remarried, she’s pleading for him to be able to have a part in the meetings. That subject has nothing to do with the workers opinion on the subject, because God already decided that. Worker’s can’t forgive that sin, nor can they change what God said. Both Matthew and Luke recorded what Jesus said regarding remarriage (adultery). In Exodus 20:14 God was giving Moses HIS commandments. It’s a grievous sin to God. Jesus didn’t take that commandment away, he deepened it, by adding that if you even LOOK on another woman that you’ve committed adultery in your own heart (Matthew 5). However, that doesn’t excuse how Dean and Scott handled Ashley’s visit…that’s disgusting! What is troubling to me, is how many people have no idea what the Bible says about Divorce (hardness of heart) and remarriage (adultery). Like why would you want to be in fellowship, if you don’t care what God said about how to keep yourself right before him? Taking our own way isn’t going to get us into heaven. We can go to meeting and even take part, but that doesn’t mean we are getting into heaven, if we are choosing to get remarried (take our own way). That applies to all of what God said, not just this subject!
Thank you for sharing this, and thank goodness you got out of that sit down meeting when you did. Their spirit and actions were not led by Christ, but by an Antichrist spirit. Thankful for those who point to Jesus instead of themselves, if a person or worker points to themselves as having power they are a false idol. No man can separate us from our relationship with God, no matter how deceptive, dangerous and dishonest as a false light they pretend to be. Eyes on Jesus not false idols (that goes for everything in this world, not just this situation).
I tried posting this comment on FB advocated for truth post but it was flagged as spam and deleted it.
Yeah, Facebook is having a “moment” and not letting people comment on that post. It isn’t AFTT, it’s Facebook itself.
I’ve noticed the AdvforTruth FB page has become increasingly negative over past few months, myself. Can’t imagine why this post would have been deleted if it was posted here. I thought back when AfT was started, it had the same mission and moderators as THIS page but something has definitively changed IMO. I don’t see the same commitment to CSA there today. Peeps more interested in theological debate and denigrating than helping victims and survivors. Just my opinion.
WINGS was established in 2008 and has never had any moderators in common with AFTT. Our mission remains much the same as it was when developed in the early years of this site. Even though we are all but one admin who are regular meeting goers, we are “church-neutral”, ie this site is fully focused on supporting victims and protecting children, not to promote or denigrate the church. The facts will land where they may.
WINGS does not endorse anything in the Comment section. This section is intended for comments relating directly to something published, not a theological debating site. Not all comments are published but the vast majority are, often to the trepidation of moderators.
It’s because the system has enabled and perpetuated the horrible abuse. It’s a package deal. Even if all abusers were found and disposed of properly, the system will just allow it to happen again. We not only need to help the current survivors, but do our best to prevent future victims… can’t do that if the system isn’t fixed or destroyed.
Better get after the Catholic Church, Mormons, JV’s, Muslims, etc. till the swelling goes down. Don’t forget those millions of sad victims of horrible abuse that has a much longer history of human abuse than this minute sect.
Junior Jones, AFTT didn’t delete my post or censor the comments – I deleted Facebook so all posts I’ve ever made disappeared. Anyone can copy and paste Ashley’s post and put it on Facebook again. Please feel free to do this yourself; Ashley’s story is very important and needs to be out there. Scott as leader of the infamous Montana 13 has made very poor judgements about predators in MT meetings and people need to know this, and how he treats women – making a guest kneel in front of him on the floor??? Who exactly does he think he is???
As AFTT and its members have just raised over $100,000 in a current fundraiser for therapy for survivors, I think it is unfair to say they aren’t interested in “helping victims and survivors”!!! They are truly doing the Lord’s work here on earth.
Sadly, I have felt the same.
It’s very sad when any human considers themselves above another human.
I’m glad you have realized that workers who penalize when there’s no scripture to substantiate doing so are in the wrong. I completely disagree with how some workers administer (laughing, arrogance, anger) penalties too, because they need to realize that whatever measure they are using with God’s children, it will be used on them as by God.
I don’t understand why some workers uphold God’s word and some do not…that has always been puzzling. So, no worker has the right to take away or add to what God said. No matter if it’s recent or 50 years ago, if they don’t repent (repentance is a turning away, or removing oneself from a sin), God won’t forgive it. It’s no different than any of our sins. We do not get to choose which sin is forgivable and which aren’t. The workers should be pointing people to scripture that God spoke about specific subjects, not giving opinion. I have lived in states where the size (it was all about numbers) of the congregation was more important than anything else, and I have lived where workers were telling people lies about situations because they had strong-willed family members who didn’t care what God said, and they wanted them to be accepted by the congregation so started justifying their bad behavior and encouraging others to join in. These workers will not find mercy on the judgment day. In fact I’m sure those who have passed and are waiting for that day (not sure where the idea came from that when people die they “go to heaven”, because there’s no scripture to back that) are tormented because they now know and can not change their situation…it’s a taste of what hell will be like. So much regret from not staying true to Gods word and not living it.
We all must be so careful that we aren’t taking our own way, on a daily basis.
I’ve have been through earthquake experiences these last few years, that I wasn’t sure I could make it through, and have met the devil face to face (an overseer that definitely thinks he’s above the rest), and in that moment felt God’s arms around me in assurance and giving me strength. I’m no match for the devil, but God is! I’m encouraged to see the purging continues within our ministry. Those who are not going in faith and bringing peace that are still sitting in high places (which there’s no scripture to back) will be brought down…to the depths of despair. My advice to all in every situation, is to pray honestly and believe that God does hear our prayers. Yes, God sees, but He is patiently waiting for us to see and be desperate enough for us to cry out seeking, knocking, and Asking. We don’t have to know how things will be taken care of, just trust that God is well able!!
Scott Rauscher is still a leader in a religious group? Here it is documented Scott Rauscher teamed up with Dean Bruer to spiritual abuse a woman and is in the position to continue to abuse more people? If Dean Bruer were still alive and all that is known about him now, would Dean still be a leader? Much is known about Scott Rauscher and his legacy of corruption and Scott still leads. On Wings For Truth, Scott Rauscher headed up the 13 workers that covered up extensive child sex abuse. It was said on the site at the time, “You cannot continue to ignore the problems in front of you. You cannot continue to undermine the hurt and pain that many victims are going through right now. You can not continue to make light of what these abusers have done and to suggest that they are anything but criminals is wrong”. …By allowing Scott Rauscher to continue to lead, that means the people of this group are like sheep willing to follow a wolf. They are doing it knowingly and willing. And yes, these same people would still follow Dean Bruer as their religious leader. Knowingly and willing. What does that make those following? Are they following Christ Jesus?
Thank you for sharing your experience. Unfortunately this is way to common. God has given us the power to discern between good and evil- light and darkness. Your experience with Dean and Scott was pure evil- the darkness of Satan was ruling in that meeting. Any time there is a meeting without witnesses is so that they can lie and deceive- then you became a victim of the lies.
The only thing that I can see is that those in the fellowship should spend some time on Christian history. I have done this and it appears that all current churches are based on the structure of the Catholic church. Do this for your own understanding.
My wife and I left the church because of false doctrine and a mean spirited leadership of the ministry. Are all ministers mean spirited- no- but how long before they become that way. Please be aware that corruption starts at the top and filters down to the bottom. Many are leaving the ministry because the corruption is overwhelming.
Quite often it gets worse before it gets better. The ministry is hoping it will blow over and the evil can continue. God will expose all – the women at AFTT are showing all of us how to help the victims and expose the corruption.
We all need to pray for one another and honest ministries- those being led by light and the love of God and Christ.
Reading this makes me sooooo angry! 😡 Any brother worker who would treat a young lady like that (especially when she’s by herself) should be slapped so hard that not even Google will be able to find him!
Love your comment Jon! Absolutely agree!
I feel the same, it makes me so mad and upset 😠
Thankfully I have never met Dean or Scott nor known anyone who even comes close to them. In my 60 years of knowing workers, I can’t even fathom such arrogant un Christ like behavior. The most encouraging thing in your post is that you refused to become a victim and instead chose to side with God and become a victor. The other thing that stands out to me is that you could detect the evil spirit that they possessed.. maybe as you say you couldn’t act on it at the time but God did not hide it from you.
in my 52 years i have never met any worker like Dean and Scott. Unfortunately they are staining even the good ones.
Ashley wow! Thank God for brave souls like you! Much love and a big hug🌷
One thing God LOVES is an intercessor. He LOVES its so dearly HE sent his Son and to be our intercessor. What I see most in this tragic account is God moved the heart of his loved one to act as an intercessor to set another free…..and she was ridiculed and despised by those in leadership.
Leadership only exists when power is given. God wouldn’t approve this and as such his power does not extend to those that would seek to abuse HIS children.
We as a fellowship need to be reminded that we only have one Shepard and his name is Jesus. Its not a man, a woman, an elder, a worker, a deacon , a friend, a spouse, a son or a daughter. It is JESUS and only JESUS.
Ashley is my sister, my spiritual sister and a child of God trying to do what’s right. I am not commenting on this as her brother, i’m commenting on this as her spiritual brother in Christ. I love God he loves those that have a heart like him. I love that spirit in my sister and all those that seek it.
Right there with you Mark. And Ashley, we know Mark, but, but have never met you, but we were absolutely appalled at your treatment. I grew up under the devastating Eldon Doctrine & knew Scott growing up. What you said regarding not fearing the workers is what I’ve thought in my heart for decades. We as Elders, or any of us do not have to follow those “rules” in our mtgs or homes. We have watched elders pass emblems around divorced couples & heard of many other incidences. We were dumbfounded years ago when we saw it. We would never sit still for that now. It’s a mystery to us why workers think THEY can say what Christ’s blood covers. Jesus didn’t keep the emblems from Judas even though he knew that Judas would betray him. Wonder how THAT conversation will go on judgement day, trying to justify to Jesus their actions on keeping people from the emblems of Christ’s sacrifice. Brenda Winberg.
Amen, Mark. Thank God every day for the spirit of discernment between good and evil. You and your sis come from strong stock.
Scott Rauscher remains an overseer this evening.
After the overseers met in Illinois this summer, their one-page report included the following:
Paragraph 2: “…we stand united…”
Paragraph 3: “…a united commitment…” and “…uniformly agree…”
Paragraph 4: “…we stand united…”
Paragraph 5: “…we stand united…” and “We are united…”
Paragraph 6: “We stand united…”
This overseer letter, which has not been disputed by my overseer, states multiple times that the overseers are united. I get to rely on these statements. I am watching for evidence that the overseers are not united in their support for this overseer and the despicable behavior towards a woman.
100% agree Paul.
To learn more about that meeting from this summer, please go read the letter from Liesel and Gaby Townsend about what Craig Winquist shared from that meeting…it’s…well, I’m still trying to process it, and feeling very disheartened and sad. They may be “united” but not for the sake of helping the victims.
Oops! Their letter is onthe letter: Safe Fellowship
I know Scott. I have known him for years. As a younger worker, Scott seemed very humble and sincere. I am ashamed of what he has become. He has demonstrated like mindedness to Dean Brewer. Exact opposite of the example Jesus left when he washed the disciples feet. Scott you are not only a shame to the “Truth”, you are a shame to Christianity in general. YOU and anyone like you is what is so WRONG with religion. At least publicly apologize to this woman and to everyone you have disgraced by being a part of what you represent. To make a woman kneel before you gets me sick! Don’t make the excuse that it was Dean’s actions. Ashley trusted you as a witness. Little did she know that she was trusting in someone with less integrity than a bug.
To Ashley: I am sorry for what you had to go through by these men that have been given over to their reprobate minds. You AND your dad are loved by many, and we are all sickened by the abuse you endured. Thank you for sharing and shining light on these evil men.
SICK and DISGUSTED continues! Nothing is changing with the same workers and overseers. This ministry is not the ministry Jesus sent. The last 6 months has revealed the true evil spirit and heartlessness of this ministry. Dean Bruer pure evilness was leaked and not intended to be disclosed. Spin doctors are working over time.
I know Scott as well. Scott if this is true, you need to get out RIGHT NOW
It is not Scott that needs to get out – it is any honest person in the group that needs to get out.
Well said!
Paul Svendsen, you state, “After the overseers met in Illinois this summer, their one-page report included the following:
Paragraph 2: “…we stand united…”
Paragraph 3: “…a united commitment…” and “…uniformly agree…”
Paragraph 4: “…we stand united…”
Paragraph 5: “…we stand united…” and “We are united…”
Paragraph 6: “We stand united…””. Paul, it sounds like you have this letter. It would be a help for all to see this letter so the masses would not be in the dark. How about posting this letter on Wings For Truth?
Go back to the post titled “Seneca IL Overseers’ Meeting Notes”.
There’s more elaboration on the post: Safe Fellowship that was posted recently
Matthew 7:15-20
Vs 18 a good tree can not bring forth evil fruit… this is a massive amount of corrupt fruit… this is a large evil tree.
Ashley, I don’t know you but thank you for sharing this truly horrid experience publicly. The vile treatment you received from these two ‘men’ is not actually as uncommon as some may like to think. In fact this very specific method has been used around the world by senior male workers to bully, intimidate and threaten women.
This behavior from OVERSEERS Dean Brewer and Scott Rauscher is completely Scandalous, Evil, Improper, Intimidating, Abusive. Scott Rauscher should be dismissed from the work. Concerned Friends
Truth? I agree with you. Matthew 7:15-20 regarding True and False Prophets; “I’mWatch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.” That is so clear. Why then does nobody, absolutely not one person, at any “meeting”, stand up and speak telling the likes of Scott Rauscher, Carson Wallace, Harold Hilton, Scott Boswell, Jerome Frandle, Mike Hassett, Ray Hoffman, Barry, Rob Newman…..that they bear bad fruit? Sheep are easily frightened. Sheep need to be lead. Even off a cliff. Don’t pay attention to the Word of God, but listen to Scott, Mike, Harold, Ray, Craig, Rob….these are the leaders!!!
More than you think are trying to get rid of these men. I’m certainly not a blind sheep, and I learned years ago, that that verse that reminds us to try the spirit (1Jn4:1) is not just referring to the Catholic Priests, the Jewish Rabbi’s, etc. THIS ministry is included. But, how do you remove someone when they sit in High Places? Jesus told his Disciples in Matthew 18 that not a one of them were to be above another…yet, here we are! Which then leads to the abuse we are seeing today. There are some of us still fighting righteously. Some are terrified and don’t know what to do, and a huge number that still don’t know anything about what’s going on. When we try to explain the abuse, they are stunned, and have no clue that it was/is so widespread. Why are Elders and workers keeping people in the dark? IMO it’s because it’s easier to rule with a heavy hand, if people aren’t aware.
Even in Revelations 19 when John fell down to worship the angel, he was told to worship GOD, not a fellow servant like himself. Evidently Dean Bruer and Scott Rauscher felt the need to be worshipped at a god-like level.
@ Retired Nurse. // What U stated just hit me. Oh my word! Evidently they did! Gasp!!
And (only) in secret, behind a closed door. Where NOBODY would EVER find out. Well, guess what!
Something is “off” with this account. No professing woman in any of my experience (and it is broad and lengthy) would have entered into a dark room with 2 brother workers, much less knelt in front of them. Whether or not you believe the “culture” of the fellowship is right or sincere, this just doesn’t fit it. We are strong, serious women who read and pray and speak intelligently. Our only kneeling is done in secret before God (quite unlike many other religions and Christian denominations), and we would have had no comfort level whatsoever with this situation right from the start.
Something is “off” with you throwing doubt on Ashley’s account. Time to stop blaming women and instead listen to them and believe them. Surely your “broad and lengthy” experience has included the past 7 months where it has been proven again and again that the victims who came forward weren’t always believed because gosh, you like that worker so you can’t imagine him doing something wrong. Or because overseers like Scott Rauscher kept/keeps pedophiles like Dean Bruer and Robert Corfield close instead of listening to victims and families. Also, you don’t speak for all women in the 2x2s and you certainly don’t “speak intelligently” in my opinion – because you posted disbelief in the very place where victims can bring their experiences. And that isn’t intelligence, it is arrogance.
It is quite something that a level headed woman would kneel or sit in front of two male workers, isn’t it? That will tell you how much they were revered ( respected) That’s what this ministry breeds). It does seem a little unbelievable, but I absolutely believe it.
I find it OFF when you comment on the action of the abused, with no reference to the abusers, and that, after having knowledge of the atrocities of Dean Breuer and Scott R.
Do you believe that these men could be capable of the treatment she received?
You know they are guilty of much worse, so it shouldn’t be hard to believe this tender hearted , honest Soul who is advocating for the abused.
Where do you stand?
Hum, I agree with you! If men workers need to discuss something with me I arrange to meet them at a coffee shop. I would never go on their turf and certainly would never go into a dark room and I would never kneel before them or anyone except my Lord and Savior. I’m too old and wise for that nonsense. And may I also add that I’m not one to put up with much nonsense of any type. When I see the bully coming I simply leave the sandbox. Nobody needs to stay on the playground when undesirables are there. If others want to get a bloody nose that’s up to them. Go ahead and engage and see where that gets you. No one should have to go through hell to get to heavens gate! My advice to everyone is to seek your answers from God. Don’t go to the men and women of this earth. They don’t know anything. The wisest man on earth is but a fool. Ask the “all knowing” God of heaven and earth. Not a fool!
This woman was desperate to try to find help for her father (who’s living in adultery). Whether you want to believe that it took place as she experienced or not, is your prerogative. However, your type of thinking is what’s gotten your sisters and our children abused, and allowed it to continue. I’ve been a part of this faith for 60 years, the first 23 I was not professing Christ, but my mother was and my Dad was on and off. I chose to visit other places of worship. So, for almost 40 years I have moved about the USA From Alaska to Florida as a part of this faith, and I have had my eyes wide open…and I have seen things that would make your hair curl! I have learned things that put the idea of murder into my mind (because it had to do with a sexual abuse child ring up in one of the North Eastern States) and this was back in the 1990’s, and I’ve talked to Sister workers that have worked in foreign lands – where they were fair game. I have been treated horribly by workers, threatened, looked down on, and caught them sneaking around my house trying to find “dirt” so they could tarnish our good name amongst the people, so I am well aware that workers can allow their “authority” to go to their heads. I believe every word she said.
Years ago I was put thru experiences like this in Ontario, Canada. I was going thru terrible experiences in my homelife that the workers knew nothing about. I had been drawn to a convention in Kentucky, because of the love and kindness of someone there who cared about my soul. I had left fellowship years before because of trouble in the church and not one worker from Ontario ever came and gave a visit to see if they could help !! After I made my choice again “in Kentucy” my husband wanted nothing to do with this fellowship and started making my life a living Hell. His parents started spreading lies about me to cover for their son and the fellowship gobbled it up including the workers and my life became even more of a “Hell” !! An unprofessing man who didn’t want a Godly life knew every move that was being made by this “ministry” and came and laughed in my face about it. I might add that I was totally “shunned” at one convention here in Ont, while this was all happening. With the exception of about four people who tried to help there was no one ???
At first I couldn’t understand what was happening when his aunt phoned me about a union mtg and I could tell that she didn’t want to stay on the phone with me. As things progressed I just couldn’t understand why I was being frozen out and I was praying to Our Father in Heaven for some answers. I got them !! One day I sat down to read and didn’t know where to read but my bible opened at a page in the Old testiment but I looked at the name of the book and I just said there is nothing here for me. I closed my bible. I sat there for a few minutes and attempted again to find something to read and once again my bible opened at the same page and this time my eye got a glimpse of the page heading and it said “about oppression” and I started to read. What God revealed to me was that “one had taken up a parable against me and not one would believe in me and stand by me”. Then I understood what was happening but I couldn’t believe that these people were God’s people.
I attempted to talk with the worker Gorden Hazelwood and he laughed and thought it was a joke and wouldn’t open his bible. I had asked him to come and also my mother as a witness. When he finally opened his bible and I took him thru what God had revealed, he shook his head and said, this is way beyond me and closed his bible and left in a hurry. (practically ran ). I was left alone in peace for three months. He had also barred me from leaving a fellowship mtg by physically blocking my path and putting his hands on my arms to restrain me. One of my brothers in fellowship stood up and told him “you cannot keep her here. Let her go!!
He returned in three months with John Richards, who I later learned was the cleanup crew for Carson Cowan overseer of Ontario. I had written to Carson for help and he wrote back. His answer was “I don’t know what you expect me to do”.He was the overseer ???? That is when John Richards was sent and he was a bull in a china shop if ever there was one.
They tried to remove me from fellowship but I was mtg an hours drive away at the home of friends of my parents and I picked my mother up and we went together. They tried to stop me from mtg but the elder was a true elder and he said “you can take the mtg out of my home before I close my door to anyone”. AND SO I HAD PEACE FOR AWHILE. I was also divorced by this time.
When my mother and I bought a house together a year or two later,in another part of Ont. it meant moving and they were lying in wait for me.
The elder there actually spoke against me and got two other brothers in the mtg to speak against me and so I received a letter that I could no longer meet there or anywhere else until I “humbled myself and became as a little child” and also I had to profess in ONTARIO as Kentucy didn’t count. Their main complaint was my singing voice. I didn’t blend with the others. I would like to add that I am a trained vocalist. You will never know the jealousy that has been harboured against me because of that and by many sister workers!! I fought this for a few years not mtg anywhere until I had a talk with Leonie Irons (who I respected and her understanding of scripture) and she said to me, just do it. I had tried to talk with Carson Wallace, present overseer about this having to profess all over again and he wouldn’t budge. AND SO I HUMBLED MYSELF AND MADE ANOTHER PROFESSION IN ONTARIO. I had been raised to believe this kingdom of God had NO boundaries. In my heart it is the one in Kentucky that counts for me.
This is the abridged version of my story !! Thru those years I prayed for what was right because if I turned my back I knew I would never touch this fellowship ever again. God hears every prayer and what he gave me was a revelation of his Son Jesus. SEEK and YE SHALL FIND, KNOCK AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU. I thank God for that revelation and the HOPE that it brings.
In some of my dealings with John Richards I had mentioned that I took my problems to God in prayer. His answer was “you come to us” !!!!! He thought he was better than God!!!!!!!! . My dad always taught me that in the time of Jesus it was the Preisthood that went wrong and he used to say to me and “when it goes wrong again it will be from the top down.” Look what we are witnessing today in this fellowship and now Isreal is at war another sign of the times
I might add that Gordon Hazelwood groped a friend of mine which I have made mention of twice on this website and I learned about sexual abuse in the Richards family. They stick together because they are all afraid of what the one has against the other. These two instances of CSA were covered up and so we go on.
I have only told you part of my story. I can add that the Devil is alive and well in this church today!! IN FACT HE IS ROARING.
From another one who understands………..
All these names are familiar to me, this is sad. It is hard to believe bad things about those you have known and loved. Not that I don’t believe ,but saddens the heart.
I lived in Ontario for many years, would love to know who you are.
Sending sincere love and care to you.💕
In Honesty, you must not be too old having said, “Our only kneeling is done in secret before God (quite unlike many other religions and Christian denominations), and we would have had no comfort level whatsoever with this situation right from the start”. It was common practice up until the 60s and 70s to have everyone get out of their chair and all would kneel for prayer. I remember one Wednesday night we were all in my parents living room kneeling for prayer when the paper boy came by to collect for that weeks paper. Seeing Miss Butters back end, a 300 pound single lady in our group, the paper boy never collected after 7:00 pm again. Kneeling was a thing and done every meeting.
Very similar experience happened to me when I was a kid. Someone looked in the window on a Wednesday night and saw a bunch of people on their knees. Rumors spread at school the next day that our family was part of a very weird religion. Very humiliating for a kid to endure this treatment. Did not know at that time that I was in the William Irvine experiment. Was told by all, including guys like George Walker and Arnold Brown and Eldon Tenniswood and Irving Ross that it was from the beginning. What liars they all were, including my parents and everybody else. God will judge all by one’s words and works.
It’s truly amazing to me that someone post under the name “Honesty” then goes on to explain how she is doubting someone who pours out their heart about a very traumatic and abusive experience by Dean Brewer – a know CSA and SA offender. Known by everyone including fellow Workers and Friends. And Scott Rauscher – a known defender of CSA and SA perpetrators. One who stood by with another worker and stated that “Dean Brewer should have been more diligent in wiping out his computer”. The experience has been posted for everyone to see. An experience that is goes right along with what these two men have demonstrated themselves to be. I know for sure that many Workers are aware of what is posted on Wings. Scott has had plenty of time to dispute this account, or at least tell his side of the story. It is so reprehensible that he hasn’t uttered a peep.
And this person who is posting under the anonymous name “Honesty” has an observation that what Ashley posted is “off”. Wow! Is there something off with all the incriminating evidence on Dean’s computer as well?
To “Honesty” – In the future, you may want to keep your observations to yourself. You are as pathetic as Scott Rauscher and in case you didn’t realize it -that is meant to be a very low blow.
Anonymous — thank you for sharing your experiences. Your sharing is helpful for healing for other people that have been spiritually abused. You note that you professed, and then had to do it over again in a different area, “I HUMBLED MYSELF AND MADE ANOTHER PROFESSION IN ONTARIO”. The workers/ head worker in our area acknowledged to us that there are different parameters set in the different areas on qualifying for the right to be baptized. Some areas have a highly structured environment where rules are qualifiers, and other areas are much more lenient. For you, it does not appear that you were to profess again to show your faith again in Christ Jesus, but instead to the workers in that particular area. As it is documented in the Bible, “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever”, Romans 1:22-25. Anonymous, you have been through so much that was completely unacceptable. May God bless you going forward.
I ‘THANK’ Wings for having this web site and for allowing me to tell part of my story. Also thankful for kind replies.I
My husband and I are appalled by the behaviour of these so called Ministers of God towards this lady. This is certainly not a spirit of Christ. I find it extremely troubling that a man like Scott Rauscher is still allowed to be in the work. This is not the first such account I have read about SR. Who has his email or that of the uber overseer in charge of him ??
Kay, Scott is in some hot water now, and Darryl Doland and Doyle Smith are to arrive in MT tomorrow to try to deal with this sickening situation. Scott just admitted that he’s been viewing pornography, but tried to downplay it by calling it “soft porn”. Our hope is that as these men all see one after another falling…they will understand why Jesus said that not a one of them were to be above another…and we will continue to have wolves and evil amongst us until they shut down the whole “overseer” program. Maybe the FBI can help with getting that shut down by imprisoning them?! They won’t listen to God or take a hint from Him, so maybe someone from this planet can stop them. Here’s to hope!
Ashley, I am so sorry that you had to endure this belittling and grossly disturbing interaction. I had a visceral reaction reading your letter both for your sake and for the sake of all the women and children who have been disrespected by men in power.
Your experience reminded me of a letter I received from an older male worker during which he felt entitled to reprimand my parenting and give me ‘tips’ on how I should parent our then two-year-old as she was antsy during an afternoon meeting. It also reminded me of looks and offhanded judgmental comments I received in the past from workers. It is this level of entitlement, lack of boundaries, and overall devaluing of women that has allowed and perpetuated abuse. Abuse is a symptom.
Thank you for being brave and telling your story. My heart and support are with you!
I am SHOOK. I cannot imagine any worker telling me to kneel before them. WHAT? I would start laughing from shock and then ask them to leave my house.
Once again, this post has absolutely nothing to do with CSA. Contrary to the claims in this woman’s little tantrum, the power and fear of the workers is very much Biblical and part of God’s plan. In Acts 5, Ananias and Sapphira ended up DEAD when they lied to the workers. Verse 11 even says “Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events”. Life is not a playground for you to please your flesh. We heard helpfully at our convention about how the most important thing that working animals are trained to do is kneel down. Without submission, that strength is useless and cannot be harnessed. It’s so sad that this woman is overtaken with bitterness against the Kingdom and still defending her father’s sexual immorality when God’s word is so clear about divorce and remarriage. There are many paths of usefulness before us but none of them are accessible to rebels.
Abiding, you really need professional help, seriously
In Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira are giving money to the apostles to disciples/workers. To help understand this important distinction:
Apostles (Acts 1:21-26)- All apostles were disciples but all disciples are not apostles. There are no apostles today.
Criteria for an apostle:
1) An apostle was an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ.
The apostles were the foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20), and so it was important that they had been with Jesus himself and, in particular, seen him resurrected from the dead. Even the apostle Paul met this criterion, though in a unique fashion. Paul refers to himself as an “untimely” apostle (Acts 9:1-9; 1 Cor. 15:7–8)
2) An apostle was directly called by Jesus (Mark 3:13–19)
Matthias-(Acts 1:23–26)
Paul- (Acts 9:6; Acts 9:15).
3) Apostles demonstrated wondrous works or miracles (Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:3–4; Acts 5:12 )
All followers of Christ are to be disciples. Again, there are no apostles today.
To better understand the importance between distinguishing apostles vs disciples, it may be helpful to examine closer what the Bible says about the Apostles’ and Disciples’ ministry.
1: The Limited Commision- Limited in terms of its duration, location, and audience (Matthew 10:5-7; Mark 6:7-13). The apostles were to go to the Jews and preach repentance and to announce the coming of Jesus and to call the Jews to return to Him. This took place technically during the Old Testament because the New Testament came into effect from Christ’s resurrection. This was a short mission and then they returned.
2.The Great Commission- After the resurrection, the apostles and disciples were given the Great Commission (Matt. 28) to go to all the world and preach the gospel. It is important to note, that there was no stipulation about how they were to do it. In Acts we read of disciples and apostles going in varying numbers, a number were married, and Phillip had four daughters. The Great Commission passed the baton from the apostles to all Christians.
The truth has been patterned after the Limited Commission.
The word apostle simply means one who is sent out. The requirements listed in Acts are specific to the one who would replace Judas to fulfill the scripture let his bishop prick another take. The title is not as important as the fact that they are sent out by the Lord of the harvest. That is why Jesus asked his disciples when he sent out the 70 to pray that the
Lord of the harvest would send laborers into the field.
Don Reynolds was always harping about submission – look what he did.
To Amen- please do a google search on apostles. Jesus only had 12 apostles. There are no apostles today. My biblical references/proof texts are not exhaustive.
Bad theology hurts people so it’s important to understand the full intention of the limited commission and criteria of apostles. Unfortunately, Irvine didn’t continue considering the remainder of Matthew 28 when he set up the ministry structure of the truth and its exclusivity.
Abiding, please read Math 19:9 and explain to me what the word EXCEPT means in this verse. I have had different supposed experts on the Bible give me their answer. All different. Help me out on this one please. It means one thing to me and no man will change it. These are the words of Jesus. Period.
PD, I don’t have a dog in this hunt, and I’m certainly no legal or linguistic or theological expert, and this is straying off-topic from the main focus of this site which is child sexual abuse, but some of our friends have recently pointed out that a word to focus more on in this verse might be “divorce.” It’s important to understand what the original writing referred to, in the context of the times. There were different types of marital separation, described by different terms, and with different types of acceptability.
Abiding, your post is so twisted that I can only conclude that it is parody.
Abiding….why don’t you just SHUT UP!!! and get on your knees and pray for understanding of the scriptures as they are written. Pray for a little forgiveness too.
Read my above post and tell me these things don’t happen. You are the chaff amongst the wheat.
Our sister in Christ was writting about spiritual abuse.
In fact to start with she was asking HELP !!!!!!!!
Abiding…
Ashley’s post shares an experience involving Dean Bruer…was he relative to CSA and what’s being dealt with on this site?
From Ashley’s clear statement in 2nd paragraph, would you not consider her to be your ‘sister-in-Christ’?
If you are ‘abiding’, do you find it right and acceptable to judge and label her experience “this woman’s little tantrum”?
Ananias and Sapphira…”ended up dead when they lied to the workers”, when v. 4 Paul says “thou has not lied unto men, but unto God”. Was it the power of the ‘workers’ that struck them dead in that instant, or actually the power of God?
If you’re claiming this is how it works and part of God’s plan, are the workers/overseers responsible for the death of Dean Bruer, as they knew he was lying before both men and God?
If so, what about the others who are and have been perpetrating evil (much worse than withholding substance)…are the workers/overseers choosing to spare them from natural death for a reason, since they have the power?
If things are meant by God to work this way in our day and generation, would you please provide the name of a worker/overseer who has raised someone from the dead?
Your statement “life is not a playground for you to please your flesh”…is this not EXACTLY what has been and is happening within the ‘truth’ for years in the many different forms that are being exposed now?
Respect your experiences and point of view, which you are entitled to, but also the food for thought it provides.
Abiding: I do believe you are either a Troll, a Worker, or both. Because of this, I will not dignify your ignorant post with a response. Wasn’t Neil Evans the Worker who was just asked to step aside by his colleagues due to these kinds of post? Being a Troll on a Website meant to help victims of abuse is the lowest of low. You probably don’t even respect yourself. Sad.
The Titanic religion known as the fellowship (formerly known as the truth) has hit an iceberg and the unsinkable ship is going down to the icy depths were it belongs. People do not let those staying on board such as Abiding, or delshirley1, or even the big three distract you. Remember when Lucifer was kicked out of heaven, he took a third of the angels with him. They will try to distract you. While the fellowship is falling apart, remember, no amount of Satanic power can keep the Gospel from spreading and the church of God from growing as Jesus had previously promised. Matthew 16:13-19, “The greatest organization, and the greatest organism, on the Earth is the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot claim to love Jesus and not love what Jesus loves; and Jesus loves the church. God has a plan for every person: That you be saved. That you be an active participant in a local New Testament church”. There will be attempts to distract you. Focus on Christ Jesus.
For Christ?-interesting how your posts have changed over time. They used to be “poor me” my daughter was attacked by a brother worker who had been in our home many times – a false accusation. To now anybody who goes T agree with the gospel you preach is from Satin and just trying to distract us. Wow.
For Christ: What is a New Testament church? What is an active “participant”? How does one ‘be saved’? These are very ernest questions.
You can find out what the New Testament church was like by reading the writings of the Early Church Fathers. They wrote about it at the same time the NT was being written. Though their writings were not included in the NT, the writings were preserved and available to us today. Search ‘Early Church Fathers’ for more info.
Biblical, read your Bible and pray. God will give you the direction you seek. I have found it in my life. Read your Bible and pray. God will do the rest.
Apostles, interesting that you base your beliefs on a Google search? As I said earlier I don’t think it is worth arguing about the term apostle. Certainly we all agree that the original 12 apostles were special, both to Jesus and to us. Judas fell and was replaced with another. Paul referred to himself as an apostle. He also implied that his companions, Barnabas ,Timothy, Titus, silvanas ,were apostles when he referred to them and said we the apostles of Christ. When Jesus sent out the 12 and the 70, I don’t think it was just an experiment, and we can just write it off as that was for a short time. If that is what you believe that’s fine with me. I just don’t see it that way.
Ashley, thank you for having the courage and strength to write and then agree to have your experience posted. You noted from your experience, “There were only two chairs in the room, (Dean Bruer and Scott Rauscher) sat down and then looked at me and pointed to the floor. They said I should kneel or sit before them”. These two characters act like THEY are God? God will not be mocked! Abiding then writes of simple human beings saying, “the power and fear of the workers is very much Biblical and part of God’s plan”. Power and fear of the ” workers “? Power and fear of God. Yes! Workers — no. God will NOT be mocked! delshirley1 mockingly writes about a teenager spiritually abused, “a poor little girl being sexually attacked by a brother worker in her home?”, as if sexual abuses by workers are the only abuse the workers are capable of? God will not be mocked! Jerome Frandle, head worker in Michigan, while in court because he looked the other way when he knew of a child in a members home was being sexually abused by a follow worker, had his attorney exclaim, “to say that (Jerome Frandle) performed baptism… None of that has happened”. Jerome Frandle was trying to say he never baptized anyone and was not a minister of God, to get his court case dismissed. A witness told the court, “Mr. Frandle baptized me when I was 12 years old… I was baptized in Lake Huron…He baptized me himself…. I’ve seen (Jerome Frandle) baptize many other people”. God will not be mocked!!! The fellowship (formerly known as the truth, until proved otherwise) is a dangerous place. God is belittled there, and the power and fear of God is not real there. Instead of God, there is worker worship, and fear. Worship of worker’s sacrifice and suffering. Fear that the workers will see you without a bun up. Not worshiping Jesus’ sacrifice and suffering for our sake. Not fear that God will see you lying, like Jerome Frandle did in court. It is the twisted version of the truth. John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” God will NOT be mocked!
It’s always easy to see the mote in our brothers eye. Good sermon.
Amen — it is very good to be away, far, far away, from the likes of you. I am so grateful to God to be where I am now and not have to deal with heartless people who have a bun and think that they are so righteous. You say, “interesting how your posts have changed over time. They used to be “poor me” my daughter was attacked by a brother worker who had been in our home many times – a false accusation”. Nothing was ever posted an “attacked”. It was said to be an assault, and I preferred to leave out the details for my family, and the workers involved to not to have to be known. I will give details, if WFT does not think it is overstepping their guidelines. The workers involved were Bill Denk and head worker, Jerome Frandle. Both of these two workers would later be arrested, mug shots taken, sentenced and then time served. Both were involved in child sex abuse cover-up of a third worker. All three workers involved are noted on WFT. Jerome France is featured in the WFT opening page under the Heading, “Workers” (“A court case in Michigan USA illustrates the importance of complying with legal requirements and notifying the authorities of any instances of suspected abuse. The Michigan Child Protection Law was amended in 2002, effective 2003, to require mandatory reporting by clergy but this was not widely known. In 2011, the overseer for the area, Jerome Frandle, was arrested and charged that he “did knowingly fail to report suspected child abuse or neglect…”.) The reason the word “assault” was used to describe the situation is because that is what it was. Bill Denk had been a regular in our open home since our kids were babies. Bill knew our kids and liked our kids. Bill talked to our daughter after the Saturday night meeting about baptism and said how happy this would make our daughter’s grandmother. Later that night the elders wife said our daughter was seen wearing jeans, that she watched t.v. We didn’t have cable but a “t.v.” for videos, and that she was on a sports team. The elder and his wife had baptized grandkids that had done all the things she said our daughter had done. Very early the next morning, Sunday, Bill Denk , knocked on the camper door and asked for our daughter. He, along with another male worker told are daughter she no longer qualified for baptism because of the rules she had broken. She was devastated. To me that was a spiritual assault! I think a lot of people who are parents would agree with that assessment. Jerome Frandle would later say the decision not to baptize a person had nothing to do with the Bible, or Word of God. It was their personal discernment. Both of these guys were involved in a child sex abuse cover-up that would be found in a court of law that they were guilty. How much more “discernment” do these two workers have over the Word of God? Later, on WFT I wrote this: You have no idea what the repercussions are from spiritual abuse. You, and no one close to you has had spiritual abuse. That is obvious. Spiritual abuse does not just affect the victim, it is wide spread. The spiritual abuse my daughter experienced first affected her, of course. The fall out affected her younger sisters and I will not go into detail on that. It was significant. The fall out spread to cousins and other family members, and friends who did not want to ask to be baptized. And didn’t. The fall out further spread to our meeting. Real damage was done. A union Sunday before that incident, there was 60 to 70 people in attendance. Today a union Sunday there is less than12 people. Recently another long time member stopped attending. Spiritual abuse is real and the affects are real. The spirit is real! The spirit is before the body and soul. The spirit is here from God. The body is a tent we live in. The body will die and rot. The spirit is eternal. Yes, the body can, and is abused by very evil people. The spirit is abused by extremely deviant, evil people. It is very unfortunate people do not understand the spirit, that is so important, and further the abuse that can and does take place against the spirit. My wonderful wife was sexual abused when a pre-teen by a professing man. That affects her to this day. That abuse is something she recognizes as an assault on her body. My wife also recognizes and realises, from our experience, spiritual abuse goes another level. God does not like any abuse. Spiritual abuse would be something that will be especially damming for the abuser. Luke 17:2 says, “It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble”. Sexual abuse is very bad. Spiritual abuse is something there are not words for.
Is there no reason that a person should be denied the step of baptism? In other words do you believe every person that desires to be baptized should automatically be baptized?
Amen, do you not believe in the bible? What do you read there about the qualifications of baptism? Its one of the more simple writings of the scripture. You can answer your own questions simply by doing a 5 minute study.
YES, who should say no?
Rebuke and correction are NOT abuse! Revelation 3 says “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.”. Your daughter was rebuked out of loving concern for her soul. It is so sad that she was defiant and didn’t receive that correction humbly and repent with a contrite heart. We’ve seen so many other wonderful young people that were willing for separation from this world and sinful behaviors.
The oozing, thick, slime coming, creeping under the door is the yucky, repugnant, self righteous bile of the high and mighty, holier than thou judging any and all that dares defy a worker. Get behind me satan!
Amen – presumably you are only after attention, however I will say this.
Of course anyone who wishes to be baptised should be allowed to. The workers job is only to ensure the person understands what this step means. Workers are certainly not the door to heaven, only a road sign and a small one at that
From afar, thank you for the simplicity and exactness of your answer; “Of course anyone who wishes to be baptised should be allowed to. The workers job is only to ensure the person understands what this step means. Workers are certainly not the door to heaven”. It is very obvious Amen does not read a Bible, because baptism was not denied. The workers are NOT there to give their “consent” to someone giving their life to Jesus, as convict workers, Bill Denk and Jerome Frandle pretend. Workers are not there to be kneeled before, as Ashley (Williams) Hom was made to do in front of creep workers, Dean Bruer and Scott Rauscher. People can ask the workers for their salvation, and kneel before them, but these same people would profit much, much more walking toward Christ Jesus, and running far, far away from the criminals and creeps.
Thank you for your responses to my question. I agree fully that “The workers job is only to ensure the person understands what this step means”. My only point is that to do that job takes judgement. If there are any among us that have never made a wrong judgement then let them cast the first stone. From every thing written about this particular case, I believe some judgements were made in error, but I admit I don’t know the whole story, the motives or the hearts of the people involved. I do know people who have been asked to wait on the step of baptism until they more fully understand that step and later expressed their thankfulness that they waited.
What is so complicated that baptism cannot be simply explained to a believer in more than a few minutes? If any adult cannot understand it, then that is a failure of the teachers, not the students.
The real problem is people not understanding the unspoken baggage that workers have add to the baptism process.
In Mathew John the Baptist had many coming to his baptism. He said to some bring forth fruits meet for repentance. Yes a very simple message that every child of God understands explicitly, not because some worker has been so good in explaining it to them, but because they have received a revelation from God. The Pharisees that heard John did not understand what he was talking about. It wasn’t John’s fault they did not understand. Quit trying to make the case that the workers are always the ones at fault. They are only sowing seed, it is God that gives the increase.
Watchman, I agree with you. Phillip baptised the eunich right after he heard the gospel story. The piles of unspoken baggage is unscriptural and should therefore be done away with. None of us can judge how God is working in another’s heart.
Amen makes an excellent point. Amen tells that the fellowship (formerly known as the truth) is not a Bible based church, or a church that is based on the word of God. Amen notes — “I do know people who have been asked to wait on the step of baptism”. These same words have been spoken by many, many people in the fellowship. Baptism denied. Telling someone who is longing in their heart to make public their commitment to Christ Jesus, and then they are told, by a worker, “You wait — you wait to accept Jesus in your life. You don’t know what is in your heart! Only I have that wisdom”. That is denial of baptism. Baptism is one of the central tenets of Christianity. Denying baptism, is only one of the many deviations from the Bible by the fellowship. Not following the Bible, THE Word of God. That is the fellowship. The workers exacting THEIR control, demanding THEIR respect and showing THEIR power and authority! None of it is Biblical, but it most definitely a standard of the leaders of the fellowship. Jesus did NOT tell anyone to “wait”. As much as the workers want to be the gatekeeper to Heaven, only Jesus is. John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. No church should deviate from the Word of God.
Wow that is a nice twist of my words. So you believe that after John spoke to the Pharisees in the way he did, that he just went right ahead and baptized them? That is in your Bible too. You also conveniently left out that those who were asked to wait were thankful that they waited. Not everyone has instant understanding of God and His dealings with them and how precious the step of baptism is.
By the way your assumption that it was workers who asked them to wait is also wrong.
Amen, quite frankly, you sound like a nagging wife, desperate for attention. You probably aren’t married. For you are, your husband probably wishes you weren’t. Or, you’re a worker. Most likely a worker. Thank God that I have a wonderful wife, much unlike your constant Holy than thou attitude. Furthermore, my wife is a gorgeous, Godly woman that loves Christ Jesus as much as I do. Also, this beautiful women I have wears no bun, and IF she wears a dress, it is modest. Not some shrink wrap piece you see at conventions and meetings these days. Amen, I feel sorry for you. If you could resurrect William Irvine from the dead, you would do it, just to see what he thinks you should do next. Or, better yet, if you could resurrect Dean Bruer from the dead, you two could sit around and determine who is worthy to be baptized. Amen, I have tried to be kind to you . I still feel kindness is in order for you because you are so self righteous, and in a religion that you think is going to save you. ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE YOU! Take off the blinders — you are in a church that is not Bible based. It is “worker” led. Not Christ Jesus led. It is a cult. …I will give you no more of my time. Look up Scott, Craig, Jerome, or even Dean Bruer to talk to. Dean, even dead, would be better than me. You two would totally be in agreement.
What make it non-biblical before you even start is the fact that you have to “Profess” first. They made this part up. When you “Profess”, you really are simply committing to the system. Submitting to the Workers and their rules and judgment. Submitting to how they interpret the bible. Submitting to the hierarchy they have set up. All of this allows them to decide whether you are worthy of what they consider a step that comes much later called baptism. You are worthy if you have proven your commitment to the system.
The Pharisees and Sadducees were not coming to be baptized, they were being brought along to check out what John was up to, and John’s invective directed at them borders on sarcasm, if not crossing the line altogether. Asking anyone who has accepted Jesus into their heart, to “wait” to be baptized, is not Biblical and something that was never said in the Bible, or the Word of God. “Waiting” is something the workers say to do. Again, that is not Bible based. That is something made up by the fellowship (formerly known as the truth). Acts 2:41, “Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day”. That same day they were baptized that they accepted his massage.
Baptism according to Websters Dictionary is “rite of initiation, as into a church”. Why would anyone have to wait? It is also the washing off of the old man to be renewed in Christ Jesus. When Jesus was baptzed the heavens opened and he received the “Spirit of God”…..the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. Jesus received the Spirit of his Father and so the Trinity was complete. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. The Holy Trinity taught to us by the Bible, but this experiment of William Irvine tells us this is not so. They try to relegate Jesus to something much lower. How would they ever understand ????
In Acts 2 3,000 heard the word and were baptized the same day. Paul didn’t judge their worthiness or tell them to wait. Needing another person’s approval to be baptized is a false doctrine.