Sacramento, California
95821-3432
September 21, 2023
As fellow-soldiers,
They fought and served with honor.
And they fought to save each other.
Dear Field,
We would like to say one more time to all of you, “thank you for the summer of encouragement.”
Besides the gospel meetings, the baptisms we attended in four northern California fields also added personal, soul-searching times as we witnessed our brethren taking another step to follow Jesus who gave His all for us.
For those who have felt uncomfortable to be in our gospel meetings, we would like say that we miss you, we love you, and consider you part of our spiritual family.
We want to encourage everyone to please come to special meetings, where, at the throne of grace, there is help and strength to overcome the daily strife.
He has delivered my soul in peace from the battle that was against me: for there were many with me. Psalms 55:18.
And so we onward go.
Your brothers on the same battlefield,
Scott & Harold
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WINGS for Truth 
My family is teetering on the brink of no longer hosting or going to meetings over the gross mishandling of this unprecedented crisis. “A summer of encouragement” is the opposite of what I’ve felt the past 6 months. Some of the unprecedented things I’ve felt are grief, disgust, mistrust, anger, betrayal, depression. I have difficulty focusing at work, and some sleepless nights. I have difficulty spending quality time with my family, as some days I feel consumed by this morass. I do not feel joy or peace in this muck.
What would feel encouraging to me would be leadership that is equally disgusted by the evil among us and is driven to protect our women and children. I want leadership that works together with all people who are actively fighting the evil among us whether those people ever went to meetings or not. I want leadership that communicates honestly when there are dangerous people and drives evil doers out, instead of coddling them and making excuses. I want leadership that is making restitution to the survivors of this crisis using the $100s of millions it’s apparently hiding in trust funds. I want leadership that is honest, acknowledges the problems and tries its best to correct them instead of pretending like it’s all fine. It’s not fine – I’ve been lied to and manipulated more times than I can count the past few months. My family is not encouraged. Honestly, I feel we would be better off if ministry went home for a couple years to get out of the way and allow people who actually care to help. The list of workers I trust these days is short. I do still appreciate those few very much and admire them as people. Honestly, I don’t know where most of you stand on this issue, and the little I’ve seen that would indicate your stance disappoints me. I’ve not only wanted to avoid gospel meetings, but special meetings as well this year. I’ve dreaded some of you staying at our house, and when some of you have, it has been uncomfortable. For my family this has been a life altering crisis, not a summer of encouragement.
I hear you.
I have been in the fellowship for 55+ years. While there are problems I have had a great peace and reassurance of God’s hand and oversight and control at this time.
I have to wonder about those with no peace and those in constant turmoil at this time. Surely the God that have given me and others peace at this time longs to do the same for you. Maybe you need to refocus. Maybe you need to look in the mirror.
The problems are being addressed in a better way than ever before. Do you not understand there have always been problems?
There were 2 people on the earth and one of them convinced the other to ignore the voice of the Almighty God and sin against Him. There were 4 people on the earth and one of them killed the other one. Lot’s daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him. Some would call in rape in our day. The problems go on and on and on.
Are you aware that there have been MILLIONS and millions of arranged marriages. Many times.. if not most times… the young women did not want to be in these marriages but were forced to. Some would call that rape in our day… and it is still going on.
CSA is an issue ALL BY ITSELF. People who molest children should be dealt with swiftly by all of us and law enforcement as well.
Let’s not lump CSA with any other problem no matter how tempting it is for those that are looking to air their many private grievances. Be honest… if you can. For those that are unhappy and want to leave. It is best if you follow your heart and leave. It is the honest thing to do. Your heart is not with us. Maybe some day things will change.
BTW… there are no hundreds of millions in trust funds. So please stop the dishonesty. Try a little harder. Please.
Jim thinks this is all normal for any regular old denomination LOL! Well shoot that Dean Bruer news was leaked not supposed to get out. Uh it’s just a little regular normal human nature here and there. Catholics and everybody has it. We all make mistakes Jim right it’s normal human nature to molest and rape kids right? It’s no big deal to keep brother workers over 50 that have known and didn’t say anything, shuffled each other around to other fields, protected evil while telling victims and their families to take their bitter spirit elsewhere. Gods ministry is still learning right Jim? Still learning that molesting and raping children is evil and vile? But wait workers hold the keys to salvation and keepers of truth right? Keep idolizing the workers and protecting your traditions and fantasyland.
@Jim, what a laughable (sad) post.
“CSA is an issue ALL BY ITSELF”, you state, as if all-caps makes this true? Yes, pedophilia is deviant, individual behavior. But do you believe it would have flourished for decades in your religion if it had been “dealt with swiftly by all of us and law enforcement as well”? If that were true, I think a pedo worker, or pedo ‘worker-in-waiting’, knowing that he/she would be dealt with swiftly, would have gone on to more fertile hunting grounds. But CSA flourishes in your religion because of privacy, secrecy, intimidation of parents/friends, and a ministry that seemingly has vowed to run cover for pedos and perps. The two issues ARE NOT SEPARATE.
And your ridiculous reference to MILLIONS of arranged marriages is relevant to CSA in the ‘God’s one true way’ how, exactly, Jim? Because some child in a third-world country is forced to marry, that somehow mitigates or excuses the crime of CSA in your religion? And since it’s MILLIONS, it makes the hundreds of pedos in your religion look, what…miniscule? Really sad, Jim.
I suppose next you will post that ‘we’re no worse than the Boy Scouts’ complete with stats? Maybe all in caps? Time for a rest Jim?
A Professing father
It would be a great opportunity, can I have the meeting you no longer want
I hear you, I feel the same, most of us do.
I am not part of the fellowship, but do go with my husband, to show my further support for the survivors I will not attend meeting any longer.
And he encouraged everyone to come to special meeting, to the throne of grace. REALLY??? That’s the throne of grace. Worker worship. I’m 77 and was raised in this. Wouldn’t miss a meeting, convention, visit, nothing. When I found out about all this the end of June, I left in July along with my sister. All the lives ruined, all over the world!!!!! All the hidden money. All the betrayal. All the sexual, psychological, emotional abuse from worker to worker. All the lies by workers!! God is not in this. This is a cult. Don’t be in denial. It is a cult. My sister and I have our own meeting every Sunday. No worker’s permission needed to sanctify the home or the emblems. It says nothing about that in the bible. Take your family away from it all. Have your own meeting. Read of all the abuse here on WINGS and Advocates for the Truth and all the other sites. It is shocking and sickening.
Lori Pope, you are brave. To recognize that this is cult at 77 and leave immediately takes a lot of strength. But you did it. Yes, it’s a cult, and it’s involved in all kinds of criminal activity.
“All kinds of criminal activity”. Perhaps you could illuminate us on all the criminal activities.
Dittos to Lori Pope. We also left the religious cult when in our 60’s due to the long-time lying about the origin. Very upset about all the wasted years bowing down to the workers and elders, but very thankful that God got us out before it is too late. Who wants to spend eternity with the likes of Dean Bruer?
Harold get ride of the cowboy stories and war stuff and come up to the 2023’s and the problems that we face today.
I appreciate the outreach on the part of HH and his companion when its been crickets from most of the California Staff.
I understand the angst of “a professing father” and for many of the same reasons I am no longer attending. The cry for leadership is interesting to me…Jesus sent out servants not leaders. Somewhere along the way the servants became the leaders. They have decided who goes to which meeting, who has the privilege of meetings in their homes, who can speak up and who must remain shamed in silence, how to dress, and how to give. Oddly there is little to no transparency on the side of the “leader”! They can tell me what I can and cannot wear but they can’t tell me where the money is or where the scripture is that decides someone has to be silent in the meeting. Many haven’t obeyed the simple standard of the law and the moral code of how to treat God’s children. And when questioned the response is: we didn’t know??? Seriously, even a child knows not to do evil and then hide it!
So often in the last six months I have thought about the situation in Exodus…(When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”
Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD.” So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.)
It really didn’t take them long to forget where they had come from. I wonder if our “leaders” have forgotten that also. Worshipping workers wasn’t ever part of the plan! I wonder if God is looking down and trying to tell us that he has seen this before and he has opened the dam with Dean B and now is the time to open your eyes!!
TLO, you have some great points. I probably should have used the word “ministry” instead of “leadership”. The unhealthy abdicating of responsibility to ministry that we’ve had in the past is not what we need going forward. Responsibility should be shared. Thanks!
a professing father: where is this at? Im Looking to relocate. Could relieve you of the heavy burden of a meeting. So very sad to hear you are burdened by that responsibility.
Another person asking where the money is. Money. This was also one of the main thoughts in the mind of Judas.
I have known the California staff for decades. During these difficult times they have communicated better that ever before. I guess the most important communication is the communication that should be happening each morning between us and God. If that is taking place… God will give us comfort and peace.
Jimbo, over the span of several days you have claimed to be a praying man who has known Rob and the CA staff for decades, yet you have the spirit of a troll. Perhaps you’ve been praying to yourself: “Father I thank thee I’m not like other men, or like this concerned person here”. You remind me of several fake accounts we’ve seen on CCF fixated on defending the status quo. For example, in a post above you said “I have had a great peace and reassurance of God’s hand and oversight and control at this time.” I think you equate the power structure of the ministry with God’s control, and you very much want to maintain your perceived power. Your posts strike me as someone taking pride in their own ignorance, ignorantly. There was a known troll who was recently asked to leave the work in our region. One of the CCF trolls used the name Jimbob with a photo he found on linked in. Is that you? Are (were) you in the work or helping an overseer? Quit smearing your decaying gray matter on this site. Most of us aren’t impressed by your thoughts. Therapy sessions here are free – I’m not licensed.
Jim, please know this; At the root of all evil, there is money involved, i.e. Dean Brewer and his Best Western extended stays. Have you ever wondered what happens to the millions – yes millions (I have done the math) that are collected each year.
If the money was handled how we read in our bible – completely transparently – handled by those chosen by the church (not the Workers), things would be different. We read of this money being given to the poor in Jerusalem and probably other areas. But unlike the vacuum our money disappears into…..the churches knew exactly where their money went. Please read 1st Cor 16, and 2nd Cor 8.
The fact that the Workers live in our homes, eat our food, drive our cars, use our gas cards, we buy their clothing, etc…..there is MUCH missing money! Please don’t be stupid. Two plus two does not equal 1. Or should I say, “if it quacks like a duck, it probably isn’t a possum”.
Considering the evil that has secretly existed – but known by the top of the hierarchy, that we now know about (CSA & SA). I hope you don’t actually think there are no money scandals within the ministry that you don’t know about. Scandals that would dwarf anything you could imagine. But don’t ask questions. Don’t demand transparency as clearly shown in the bible….You may be compared to Judas if you do. Continue to give money, submit and obey your “leaders”.
Yes, very well said.
“Eb” Grigg
Same battlefield, different sides. You Harold are obviously fighting to retain a Hierarchy of “Absolute Power” that has been the status quo
“Eb” Grigg
Same battlefield, different sides. You Harold are obviously fighting to retain a Hierarchy of “Absolute Power” that has been the status quo for much too long. In your letter re. GS allegations you stated “WE will decide what changes, IF NECESSARY, will be made. How did that work out Harold? Your “summer of encouragement” update seems to be in direct conflict with the update from Kent Williston on the same date. Many workers “resting”, some leaving the work, 1 forced to leave the work. You are preaching the same gospel that Mike Hassett preaches, the “Ostrich Gospel”, don’t talk about the problems, just stick your head in the sand and believe “all is well”. Thank you Kent for having the courage and integrity to “tell it like it is. This, Harold, is what transparency and honesty looks like. It is what is needed and much appreciated at this time.
Thank you Kent, please don’t change!
TLO — great summary about Moses and the people he lead and how those same people turned to idol worship. You stated, “It really didn’t take them long to forget where they had come from. I wonder if our “leaders” have forgotten that also. Worshipping workers wasn’t ever part of the plan!” TLO, you missed one very important point. This group of workers did not start out with Moses. They began with William Irvine. The workers yesterday, are the same today. They have been, and are, concerned about nuance of dress, hair styles and other outward identifiable characteristics to make judgment on. TLO, you post, “Somewhere along the way the servants became the leaders. They have decided who goes to which meeting, who has the privilege of meetings in their homes, who can speak up and who must remain shamed in silence, how to dress…”. The workers have never changed. They have had the ” leader/judge” role all along. It’s just that the veil has been lifted off of your eyes and now you see the reality. It’s actually a good thing. Following Jesus Christ is much better, and easier, than following the workers.
Lol
This can’t be real. “Summer of encouragement”?
I think it was a typo. Pretty sure it was supposed to say “Bummer of Discouragement”.
PD
I agree, a summer of encouragement, is a total joke. Harold needs to go off to the Donner party. Where were these, HH, K Williston, etc when Ruben Mata was molesting our boys. California workers were so devided on this issue it was pathetic. Our older sister workers need to not tell the younger ones, “don’t talk about these issues.” Workers have no clue how to react when our children and women are molested. Williston goes into a home and is offered some money and he refuses to take it because there is a bottle on wine in the refrigerator. Some of these worker writings are legends in their own mind.
Scott and Harold, you were working on getting acknowledged paedophile and ex-work, Gilbert Smith, back into the “meetings”, having all the elders together to get this predator readmitted to the fellowship. Now you two write, ” “thank you for the summer of encouragement.” Besides the gospel meetings, the baptisms we attended in four northern California fields also added personal, soul-searching times…” Just curious, in this “summer of encouragement”, gospel meetings and baptism, how many people did you deny baptism to altogether, due to the ” fellowship rules”? My beautiful teen daughter, who was asking to be baptized by the workers, and all in for Jesus Christ — was denied to be baptized, due to organizational rules. She was not allowed to show her public declaration of her faith in Jesus Christ; and was refused to be baptized by the workers. The workers have “DISCERNMENT” on such matters, I was told by the “head worker” in our state. He could not find where in the Bible (THE WORD OF GOD), that gives anybody such authority, to deny someone of their life changing decision. The Bible doesn’t deny anyone baptism. It was just his discernment. Scott and Harold, you have shown you think that you have discernment as well, wanting your fellow worker and good friend and paedophile, Gilbert Smith back into the fold. You both really need to get another job. McDonald’s is hiring. …Update: my daughter is doing great! She was baptized by a very good, strong, Christian man. She is a blessing to all, and her love for Jesus Christ is known to all that know her.
PD
New Testament, saved and baptized same day. Must have worn the proper sandals.
Scott and Harold, you were working on getting acknowledged paedophile and ex-work, Gilbert Smith, back into the “meetings”, having all the elders together to get this predator readmitted to the fellowship. Now you two write, ” “thank you for the summer of encouragement.” Besides the gospel meetings, the baptisms we attended in four northern California fields also added personal, soul-searching times…” Just curious, in this “summer of encouragement”, gospel meetings and baptism, how many people did you deny baptism to altogether, due to the ” fellowship rules”? My beautiful teen daughter, who was asking to be baptized by the workers, and all in for Jesus Christ — was denied to be baptized, due to organizational rules. She was not allowed to show her public declaration of her faith in Jesus Christ; and was refused to be baptized by the workers. The workers have “DISCERNMENT” on such matters, I was told by the “head worker” in our state. He could not find where in the Bible (THE WORD OF GOD), that gives anybody such authority, to deny someone of their life changing decision. The Bible doesn’t deny anyone baptism. It was just his discernment. Scott and Harold, you have shown you think that you have discernment as well, wanting your fellow worker and good friend and paedophile, Gilbert Smith back into the fold. You both really need to get another job — McDonald’s is hiring. …Update: my daughter is doing great! She was baptized by a very good, strong, Christian man. She is a blessing to all, and her love for Jesus Christ is known to all that know her.
Acts 22:16 says “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’” Scott and Harold– “Gilbert Smith, you good paedophile brother, you wear the white shirt, the tie, you smile, you shake hands really good– you fit into the box of the fellowship, the form that we have created. Welcome, brother, you predator. Now you teen girl, not wearing a denim skirt and white tennis shoes, you are NOT welcome. You don’t get in. You’re outside the box young one! You’re worldly! C’mon Gilbert, it’s the “summer of encouragement”!
We all have regular everyday human nature right? We all go over the speed limit every once in a while right? We all have a regular old human nature that wants to rape and molest children right? No! it’s not regular normal human nature! Sure yeah he said sorry he didn’t remember it that way and not sure what everyone’s talking about. Gee that sounds pretty good for an apology. Gee he feels bad I can tell ok Alls forgiven. Well move him to S America oopsy did it again ok he’s out of the work moved to another state and finds a clueless wife that no one told and make him an elder of meeting with children and no one knows. Alls forgiven. Now get over it! Sound familiar HH, KW, RN, RDH, EA, JW, DC, AB, CD, EFG and thru Z every one of you? Disgusting vile keepers of evilness, lies and generational destruction.
a professing father: Wolves in Shepherds clothing:
Numbers 16
Jimbo (aka helpful, worried about feet), Revelations 2: 1-7 and Romans 13.
…So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD…
For Christ: EB Bertha Wolf professing father
Goodness gracious did they tell you that you MUST meet with him? Everyone was supposed to have an option . Something must have gone wrong. That is very big worry that you did not have option.
Got another worker going rogue posting that CSA crisis is just a nuisance. Annoyed the Dean Bruer Holiday Inn VIP status was discovered. What’s wrong with these people I’m a worker dogonit you do whatever I tell you. I’m a worker I have the power to take your part away! I detect bad spirits! We need to get more uneducated morons that listen.
Professing father tlo PD
Terrible you were forced to meeting with gs. It most definitely is unprecedented, unhealthy abdicating and I think you should put your foot down really hard . Break the pedestal so no one can stand on it again.
Worried, you wrote, “Goodness gracious did they tell you that you MUST meet with him?”. Both my wonderful wife and I were raised in the “fellowship” (formerly known as the “truth”). We both come from early fellowship lineages that date back to the days when William Irvine’s disciples came to the U.S. We were both supposed to have been held by the great George Walker (George Walker, William Irvine and Edward Cooney were the first big three), when we were babies and George Walker, in his latter years. As children, we were both taught, and thought, we always had to do as the workers said and must meet with them when asked for meetings, gospel meetings, special meetings… After the workers denied our beautiful, full of love for Christ Jesus daughter to be baptized, we both knew we were in an organization not of God and for the sake of our children and us as well, we made the decision, (and had the strength and courage from God) to no longer meet with the workers. Now instead, we meet with Christians and Him, who is our Lord, creator and saviour. Isaiah 43:11-12 says, “I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God”.
Foe Christ- you now state”After the workers denied our beautiful, full of love for Christ Jesus daughter to be baptized, we both knew we were in an organization not of God and for the sake of our children and us as well, we made the decision, (and had the strength and courage from God) to no longer meet with the workers”
In another post you stated you left after your daughter was sexually abused by a brother worker and then you left.
Which is it? It makes a huge difference.
“…you stated you left after your daughter was sexually abused by a brother worker and then you left”. Delshirley1, you are getting mixed up. Please reference the post and date you refer to. Sorry you’re confused. 1 Corinthians 14:33: “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.”
For Christ | September 11, 2023 at 5:08 pm
A brother, after our very happy, beautiful teen daughter was assaulted by a male worker, who we had known for many years, had in our home numerous times, and
Here it is. Which story is true?
For Christ
So you were not even asked to meet with GS?? I thought you had a genuine worrisome experience.
If you are so HAPPY to be OUT,
Why don’t you merrily go on your way? You want to make sure others become disgruntled?
You sound like that moron who escorted that S African worker off Mtn Ranch and right into another meeting with young girls.
Professing father
Were you also not even asked to meet with GS? so this is much ado about nothing except “let’s get everyone so to be disgruntled”?
I was worried that you hadn’t been given any choices and they told you that you must meet with GS. I thought that was the problem.
Professing father
Were you also like the other man not even asked to meet with Gil? so this is much ado about nothing except sharing unhappiness so we can all be unhappy ?
I was worried that you hadn’t been given more choices and they said you must fellowship with Gil.
I thought there was a problem and you had to go to meeting with csa .
Maybe Gil is in the meeting you want to give away.
Worried, God does not want us to be worried, or disgruntled. Instead, gain knowledge and wisdom. Proverbs 1:7, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction”.
Professing father and For Christ
Definitely you all should be unhappy.
And you have explained to the nth degree why we should all be unhappy!! Thanks for your counsel We can join together in a loud complaint and then maybe we will be like Numbers 16 and we won’t have to deal with this anymore!
Professing father For Christ
Yes we should be discontented. You have explained 999% why it is so factual that we can’t ignore it. We should get more and more to be discontented with us Then if our Father sees it so bad we can all be like numbers16
Professing father
Have you pray please turn us again and cause Thy face to shine?
When we are turned then we can see
Something else and don’t walk right to traps of discourage
It is time for truth. In 2014 we met with Rob Newman and Dale Shultz regarding CSA in the ministry and fellowship. After a year of emails and phone calls and 3 meetings there was a determination- there was not a big deal about the children being molested and if they needed counseling the state would pay for it. Walter Pollock did not understand why these men are allowed to stay in the ministry. Rob met with the international overseers in 6/2015- the response back was God only spoke thru the overseers and not the general populace of the church. I do understand why Rob had a breakdown- the lies of the ministry had caught up with them.
As far as the money goes- info provide by an overseer in 3rd world country- often when a worker is guilty of CSA THEY ARE SHIPPED OUT OF THE US. A little point of interest is they are given a stipend of 30,000 a year to stay out of the US. Several overseers are tired of this practice because these men do not change and continue molesting children and women. When they are caught they are shipped again. That practice I hear they are trying to stop.
If you have 35 pedophiles you are sending money to that equals 1,050,000 US dollars.
This has been a practice by the ministry for years. Isn’t it wonderful your donations are supporting the pedophiles. These funds need to be used for the victims- CSA/SA and yes women in the ministry. I hope this answers a few questions.
Truth?
How about Un- truth?
The 30 k business for sure
Please check with you overseer- if they are honest they will confirm. Since they do not live with families in their fields they have batches.
I do not believe the overseers for these countries would lie to me. these men when they were young met in our home- at one time they we were close. In 2000 my wife stopped coming to meetings due to false doctrine. 2015 I finally left. My friends in the ministry kept saying it would change when the older workers died. It did it got worse.
Professing father
Many perpetrators is your region and you must meet with them?
Maybe you move
Professing father
How can all look so dark and black? Nothings for happiness?
Professing father
Trying To Discourage?
Professing father For Christ
Oh what a wonderful world it will be…. When we all are disgruntled as you see
Professing father
I would help by taking the meeting that is a weight
Professing father
Our family could do hosting the meeting. For every Sunday?
Jimbo, that’s real cute in the way a mamma troll could love using all the different e-mail addresses and names….kinda like having fake friends. Did you ask those people for permission before using their identities? I might give you a call later – heads up that our conversation will be recorded. You had a couple questions for me I’ll try to answer in a way you can hopefully relate. Some of you knew about a pedo in my field growing up and chose to hide that from my parents and my grandparents though both had meetings in their home. My siblings and I hung out there a lot and spent the night at that pedo’s house as small kids. He was also sent to our meetings but no one thought we should know, even though he had already molested several kids in our field. Furthermore, several more pedos spent the night in our home as kids. As adults other known pedophiles were sent to my home for meetings to spend time with my children and some people who knew, didn’t think my wife and I needed to know. That went on for a couple decades. Furthermore, every concern I’ve raised recently with some in ministry who can do something about it has been explained away/ ignored/ denied/ etc. We have multiple pedos surrounding my field. There are thousands of survivors who have come forward and thousands more who haven’t yet. So not all is well even though most of us weren’t asked to meet with GS personally. I do recall him being in our home as kids. I do know the details of what was hidden about him when people were asked if he could come back. Thanks for your concern…maybe we can just take this offline from here and discuss by phone. Talk to you soon.
How sad these workers are. The fear of man and the fear of the laws of the land & justice is so great! But keep preaching forgiveness where there’s zero repentance.
delshirley1, you must be a worker. Very harsh, uncaring, so judgemental and self righteous. If hatred could be posted, it seeps from your words. Reading your posts makes me very thankful I don’t have to feel like I need to be around people such as you any more. You say there is a “huge difference” between the different abuses, whether sexual abuse or spiritual abuse. It is obvious that you have never been abused. My daughter was spiritual abused. My wonderful wife was sexual abused. Both abuses were devastating. Both abuses changed the trajectory of both their lives. Both abuses came from professing people, or people from the truth organization. My wife was a pre-teen when she was sexual abused by her much older brother in law. Given that experience, we raised our daughters very aware of the evil that presents itself as innocence. The very, awful, vile nature that can be so easily disguised. That is why we were so blindsided when our daughter was spiritual abused. We were looking for one thing, and not expecting something else entirely. We raised our girls in a very loving environment where the workers visited often over the years. Our home was one of the few real open homes. Workers were fully recognized, received and respected. When our daughter was sixteen, she wanted to make public the proclamation she had already sealed with her Lord. She wanted to be baptized to make public the decision she had already made in her heart. On Saturday night at convention, a male worker, who had been in our home many, many times over the years, and knew our daughter since she was a baby, talked to her about baptism and how she was going to make her grandmother very happy. After the worker talked with my daughter and prepared her for the next morning’s baptism, he talked with our elders wife. The elders wife told this male worker that my daughter was on a sports team (she was a downhill skier), and that she had been seen wearing blue jeans and also, she had watched t.v. ( we had a t.v. to watch videos — it was not connected to cable). That night our daughter stayed up late in my parents camper and read her Bible by flashlight. Early the next morning the male worker was knocking on the camper door, accompanied by another male worker. Our daughter was told that she had violated three rules and that she was not to be baptized. They then left. Our daughter was devastated. She was inconsolable and wept in a fetal position on the floor of the camper. I later talked to the head worker. The head worker looked through his Bible for where Jesus denied baptizing certain people that longed to be baptized. The head worker then threw his Bible on a stool and said, “this won’t help”. He then said that my daughter was not baptized because of the workers ” discernment “. This same head worker was to be arrested, convicted and sentenced for not reporting child sexual abuse that he knew was taking place. Later, I thought of this discernment that the head worker talked about. It was not Biblical, however, it was his “wise thinking”. Another senior, well known male worker, called me about what had happened to our daughter regarding baptism, and he too said it was in the Bible “somewhere” that Jesus denied baptizing to certain people that longed to be baptized. This worker had also spent time in jail, he for various DUI charges. …Present day: our daughter since has married a very good Christian man and they have been blessed with beautiful children. Our daughter was baptized by an incredible Christian man that we were able to witness. Dispute the horrific spiritual abuse, that is bigger than this life on earth and deals with that given from our Lord, our daughter did not turn from God. Her children will never have to face the spiritual abuse that she had been through and those that were her abusers, they have to face the wrath of God.
For Christ- thank you for your heartfelt response which does clarify your situation. My heart goes out to you and your family. No I am not a worker and feel badly that my questions come across to you so negatively. I am not disputing the affects of abuse on the human body. It’s heart breaking. I may be very wrong but to me sexual abuse, especially with force is just pure evil. So when I read your first post, stating that your daughter was attacked several times in your home by a brother worker, all I could picture was a poor girl being forcefully raped by a brother worker. Then I learned that the daughter was denied baptism. So I wanted clarification because it all seemed so strange.
From what you have written, I could not agree with how your daughters baptism request was handled. If I understand what you said, the first worker was on the right track? An elders wife maybe spoke up when she should have remained silent and lots and lots of errors in judgement. I can see how devastating this would be to your family. We can fault a lot of people for poor or lack of judgement in this case and I am sure millions more including our selves. Yes many of them have caused terrible impacts on others. Many words that we have spoken hurt and cause damage. But given all the harm from these, I still feel forcible rape, sexual abuse, which I thought was the subject of this site is a far worse crime against humanity.
Peace brother.
spiritual arrogance
Quite frankly, I have to commend the Overseers on holding the line and keeping the vast majority of the faithful in their seats. A vocal minority exists, but it is losing steam (there is only so many ‘rage letters’ they can type in their keyboards), and some of them are permanently exiting the 2x2s. The Overseers know where the bulk of their support is in the 2x2s, and that was evident with the convention grounds as well attended as any other year. The old codgers are sitting tight waiting for their ‘salvation in the one true church’, and the vocal minority isn’t going to break their grip. The Overseers have had to fire some ministers to set an example for any other uppity ministers, but that is the price to be paid.
I don’t see the Overseers having lost much so far. In all honesty, the reformers have only exposed who they are, and are now never 100% trusted with the inner secrets of the group (who has the bank accounts, where the child porn tapes are, etc).
The only way this group is going to be broken is if some deep insiders are willing to cooperate with the FBI.
Bessie, you sound intolerant and that you’re always right. When you point a finger, there’s four fingers pointing back at you. From the mold of THE way, you appear to have intolerance and spiritual arrogance. Spiritual arrogance is when we believe our process of spiritual self-inquiry or unfoldment is better than someone else’s process. When we believe that what someone else is doing should be changed, shifted, or re-imagined through the lens that we insist, sometimes emphatically, to be better. Workers drunken with power, and sometimes alcohol, is not better.
mr For Christ,
You misconstrued the thought I put out there. Yes, I’ve been very guilty of spiritual arrogance. Our way is the only way, spiritual arrogance. I am more right than you, spiritual arrogance. I am better than you, spiritual arrogance.
do you understand what I mean? I have been very guilty of this. Stop reacting in such a defensive and very negative thought process.
For Christ- before doing all your judgement of people on this site for their underlying motives, it would be good to hear your motive in posting on a CSA site that a brother worker who was often in your home attacked your teen age daughter. Did you not realize that most readers would get the picture of a poor little girl being sexually attacked by a brother worker in her home? Now you later explain that didn’t happen that way.
delshirley1, you have no idea of what you are even writing about concerning abuse. You have no idea what the repercussions are from spiritual abuse. You, and no one close to you has had spiritual abuse. That is obvious. Spiritual abuse does not just affect the victim, it is wide spread. The spiritual abuse my daughter experienced first affected her, of course. The fall out affected her younger sisters and I will not go into detail on that. It was significant. The fall out spread to cousins and other family members, and friends who did not want to ask to be baptized. And didn’t. The fall out further spread to our meeting. Real damage was done. A union Sunday before that incident, there was 60 to 70 people in attendance. Today a union Sunday there is less than12 people. Recently another long time member stopped attending. Spiritual abuse is real and the affects are real. The spirit is real! The spirit is before the body and soul. The spirit is here from God. The body is a tent we live in. The body will die and rot. The spirit is eternal. Yes, the body can, and is abused by very evil people. The spirit is abused by extremely deviant, evil people. It is very unfortunate people do not understand the spirit, that is so important, and further the abuse that can and does take place against the spirit. My wonderful wife was sexual abused when a pre-teen by a professing man. That affects her to this day. That abuse is something she recognizes as an assault on her body. My wife also recognizes and realises, from our experience, spiritual abuse goes another level. God does not like any abuse. Spiritual abuse would be something that will be especially damming for the abuser. Luke 17:2 says, “It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble”. Sexual abuse is very bad. Spiritual abuse is something there are not words for.
Oh Harold, your platitudes and soldier analogies (especially those about fighting to save each other) do little to assuage our anger, disappointment and disgust with the endemic CSA/SA and the coverup revealed in the past six months. We keep waiting for you to actually show care for our fellow soldiers, especially the wounded ones. With your interest in the military, I’m sure you’re aware that the US military has a sacred commitment to leave no one behind on the battlefield; perhaps you should give that sacred commitment some consideration. See those bodies lying in the ditch, begging for help, asking to be believed? Why do you ignore them? Why do you pretend they don’t exist? Why do you not do all within your power to see that they are helped and receive the care they need? Why do you instead continue to march on with the ones who abused them, those who denied their pleas for help and tossed them in the ditch? Can you really not discern the enemy from an innocent victim? I think you can. I think you have chosen whom you will support. With each cry that you ignore, with each denial of having knowledge about the abuse, with each perpetrator that you excuse and allow to attend meetings, you make your choice. We might be on the same battlefield, but I believe we’re on opposing sides.
Well said DH
Just a tidbit on Harold. DH’s post reminded me of this;
I was at a Mt Ranch Convention where Harold did an entire sermon on “Breaking Rank”. I don’t remember him referencing the bible once. He simply used the military as an analogy. This was during the time that the torch soon to be passed from Dick Middleton as Overseer, and Harold thought he was next in line. There was an obvious power struggle going on between Harold, Dick Wulf, and Ed Alexander – all thinking they would be next. My wife and I walked away from that sermon just shaking our heads, looking at each other, and wondering how this was even close to what we read in Jesus teaching. His entire sermon was “DON’T BREAK RANK”. He used Dick Middleton as having rank over him as an example. I’m sure there are others that remember this sermon as I know that there were others that were as perplexed as us. It really does show how out of touch these Workers become with the simple teachings of Jesus. The focus is all on the “system”.
Harold always has some stupid story about cowboys or some military story. I have heard them all. He is another legend in his own mind.