WINGS Note: The first letter is from the owners of Clever convention grounds. That is followed by a message from overseer Craig Winquist.
Aug 12, 2023
Dear Friends,
We are sorry to announce Clever Convention will not take place this year.
As many of you know, we have been in conversations with Craig Winquist to make sure the grounds are safe for all during convention time. Craig and the two of us have made progress and agreed on a number of protocols.
We (Lecil and Gaby) feel moved to protect our Friends from those, including workers, who have knowingly allowed predators to continue to cause harm. We can only open our home to these people once they have taken actionable steps to right their wrongs and have re-earned the trust of our fellowship and those they harmed. Craig wants to make exceptions for some people. As such, this year’s convention will not proceed.
Instead of convention and preps, we have offered Craig our home as a gathering place for workers to discuss the ongoing SA and CSA crisis. We urge the ministry to use this as an opportunity to develop and implement solutions that atone for the decades of abuse in the Truth.
Our commitment to our faith and our fellowship remains strong, and we are hopeful Craig and other workers will take the necessary steps in time for Clever Special Meeting in April and next year’s convention. We will continue working with them to find solutions that do not compromise the safety or well-being of the fold.
We encourage those who have knowingly allowed a predator to continue to cause harm to step forward, apologize both publicly and privately, and join the effort to find safety, justice, and peace in the Truth. There is still a chance for you to be a part of the solution.
In solidarity,
The Townsends
Subject: Important notice of cancellation of Clever for 2023
Dear all,
Another development in a strange and difficult year. We have decided it is better to cancel Clever this year. We can still plan on the pre-preps having a week or so of preps at Clever to take care of a few items that will be a help through the year. Lecil and Gaby both welcome us there. In it’s place this year we plan on adding a Rogers 2 the week of Clever so that those from Missouri who would like to attend a convention will have access to one. We have been in touch with Joe and he is aware of the need and is planning on hosting it. So our visitors that were to be at Clever will now be attending Rogers 2. Thanks for all you do …. A brother, Craig
cwinquist@<redacted> 605-<redacted>
Previous posts relating to Clever:
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WINGS for Truth 
Winner: The Townsend’s for standing for what is right and just.
Loser: Winquist who sided with CSA offenders less than 2 weeks after saying “SA and CSA stops with me”.
I wonder if Craig’s conscience has been pricked by some awful behaviour and that’s why he can’t seem to take a stand on helping the victims to feel safe, nor does he care about the innocent among us, if he allows even ONE. Because I have learned from our state law enforcement: They are NEVER in attendance ANYWHERE that they aren’t scanning the crowd/families for their next victims!
Per my comment on 8/10 under “Preparing for Convention…..” it was explained why Craig had objections to the Townsend’s rules. If most workers were not allowed to attend that convention, including Craig himself, he had no choice but to cancel it. The Townsend’s did what is right in God’s eyes, in my humble opinion.
what about all the parents who reported abuse to workers rather than to the authorities? Are they also going to be banned… ? I suspect there is a bit of scapegoating going on here.
The church as a whole is what will solve this, not a workers v friends approach. In my mind the parents are just as bad, when they knew their kid was harmed, they give into the crowd to save face/place and moved on.
Craig did not cancel the convention. Liesl and Gaby did. Because they have love for God and His people. Time for people to recognize that Craig and whoever in your state is allowing it, don’t care about the victims, and are willing to even offer up new victims. So, call your local Sheriff and report! To the parents of victims, flood your local sheriff offices with calls to report what these people did to your child, and let them know it’s an ongoing issue and because it’s itinerate that you don’t know how to get them to stop, because Craig (or name your overseer) is okay with offering up new victims or even old ones.
“We (Lecil and Gaby) feel moved to protect our Friends from those, including workers, who have knowingly allowed predators to continue to cause harm…Craig Winquist… wants to make exceptions for some people…. “. The big three supreme rulers in this organization and the head workers make “exception “, or favors to buddies. The devil, like a roaring lion that devours, rules. Proverbs 16:17 tells us, “Good people stay away from evil. By watching what they do, they protect their lives”. The big three and the head workers have shown they compromise. Compromise with the devil and the devil wins every time. The highway of the upright turns aside from evil; whoever guards his way preserves his life. Preserve your life, stay close to Christ Jesus, read your Bible earnestly and prayer with passion to the Lord. Stay away from compromising people with low moral base. Convention at this point is an open playground for the devil, given the predators are allowed to continue to cause harm, and are allowed to roam free due to the likes of Craig Winquist, who “wants to make exceptions for some people”.
Eve to Adam, c’mon Adam, it is so beautiful and looks amazing! It’s not going to hurt you. God didn’t really mean to stay away from THIS?! Just one little bite. You can do it!
Craig Winquist to Lecil and Gaby, look at this guy, yeah, he’s a predator, but look how nice he is dressed. He is certainly not going to hurt anyone actually again! God doesn’t mean we shouldn’t compromise a little bit. Lecil and Gaby, really! Even the big three supremes says it will be fine.
This is what integrity looks like. Protecting the vulnerable with ZERO exceptions given to predators. Why would Craig even ask or want someone with allegations being around vulnerable people for days and nights on end? What makes this year “strange and difficult”, Craig – people don’t want predators around, nothing strange about that.
Do we know which offenders Craig is supporting? In my humble opinion, one of two things happened: either #1 – Craig was put in check by the top overseers; or #2 – Craig has been dishonest all along regarding his stance on Child Sexual Assault… Either way, the perps are still getting protected!
It is encouraging to see you folks stand for what it right with the Armour of God as your protection. Not the shield of men.
You will always be punished and shunned in some form for standing or speaking up against this Government of man. And more so when it impacts the upper hierarchy. As clearly seen in this.
You have a front row seat to this. We have had one as well.
It does continue to expose much in them. And Craigs letters do not even show the courtesy of honesty to whom they are written.
You will stand at liberty for standing for what God is pleading for in his people.
They will remove fellowship for Gods people. As seen here.
They will remove their friendship. )My experience).
But they have no power over our Relationship with God. Relationship is our only sure connection.
What a courageous and necessary move by Lecil and Gaby! I applaud them. When asked (or ordered) to compromise their principles, they said NO! For decades, the workers, and especially overseers, have been given nearly unlimited, and certainly unwarranted and unscriptural power over the laity. Maybe the tide is turning with this ‘stake in the ground’ by Lecil and Gaby (and the hosts of Woodstock Canada).
Now might be the time for all convention hosts to form an alliance to establish common Safety Protocols for conventions as Lecil and Gaby did for Clever. Craig Winquist’s statement in an earlier missive that each Overseer in each territory should establish their own guidelines and practices concerning CSA/SA is a terrible idea. So every overseer could decide which perps/pedos to report? Which to allow on convention grounds? Which to allow to attend meetings, maybe even with their victims? Terrible idea. This is exactly what has allowed this scourge to flourish for decades. Time for the laity to take a stand. The scripture is on your side if you do.
Townsends, I take my hat of for you!
Well said, stand for the truth( with a small t)
Craig Winquist, You bemoan a difficult year when in reality it has only been 4 1/2 short months since the news broke about Dean Bruer, your deceased co-overseer.
May I suggest you have no idea what difficulty is. Try being a victim of childhood sexual abuse. Try navigating life while carrying a deep trauma inside of yourself. Try being misunderstood while you suffer panic and anxiety. Try being so hurt you no longer want to live. Try that for 55 years and you will then know what difficult is.
Have you not heard the cries of thousands of victims? Have you no compassion? Or are you just so blinded by your little “difficulty” that you cannot see the pain around you?
That’s what needs to happen everywhere! Here in Washington, we just had another brother worker (with CSA and SA accusations) stroll right past the “No predators allowed on these grounds” signs, and they were sent emails regarding behaviour. So, We completely understand your worry that another child could be harmed!
When these perpetrators start turning themselves in to their local authorities and suffer the consequences of their crimes…after admitting they were wrong and that what they did was wrong. Then, we may see a sliver of hope that they might over time (Decades of thereapy and spiritual guideance, and possibly agreeing to castration – either chemical or permanently) be able to get the help they need.
This report makes my blood boil! I thought Washington created a ZERO tolerance policy???
I know of ONE who turned himself in and no one coerced him. Bruce Waddell from Manitoba/Saskatchewan. HE had the integrity to report himself and step down
What about the other 99%???
I have to support the owners of the grounds in this, and if I am reading between the lines correctly the workers were wanting former perps or those that hid and shuffled the perps around to be able to attend as if they had done no wrong – in spite of knowing otherwise. If this is correct, it is yet another attempt to hide the guilty while trying to move forward as if there was nothing wrong – after flowery speeches of wanting to protect the innocent. This is yet another display of the integrity and ethics at the top, but not surprising. Not even honest enough in the group letter to identify the problems as to why the convention was actually cancelled – and that speaks volumes about upper management and how they really think. Ah yes, corruption and disfunction running riot, chopping holes in the bottom of the boat. Grab you life jackets
Much appreciation to the Townsend’s for their courageous stance.
My guess is that one or more names on the visiting workers list is a peer of CW and he doesn’t have the political power (or desire) to tell them not to come.
There’s no organizational chart for the laity to read, but those in power know how the org chart looks.
U.S. president Harry S. Truman had a sign on his desk with ‘The buck stops here’ inscribed on it. Harry meant that as President, he had to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions. I didn’t know Harry, but I do know Craig (and his family). I really thought Craig Winquist was really making a Harry S. Truman type statement when Craig, pronounced, “SA and CSA will stop with me!” I could just see Craig ponding the table and getting somewhat worked up. I really thought, this time things will be different! Craig is going to shake things up, and be different. Look out. Craig is turning over tables, like Jesus did when He had enough! I thought Craig was calling out all those that have let sex abuser, and their protectors no longer have a free pass! Craig you disappointed me, and I am sure your family. You, Craig, are just another empty suit just like the rest (even though you are better educated). You Craig, are no Harry S. Truman though, that is for sure.
Lecil and Gaby,
I don’t know you, but thank you for taking a stand in support and validation of the many who have been traumatized, discredited and disrespected. God moves people to respond to needs, to face challenges, and to care for the wounded. Thank you for being sensitive to the needs of others and responsive to God’s leading.
Sara Wojcik
To the Townsends. Thank you for your integrity and standing up for what is right and against what is corrupt
I cannot believe the dishonesty of Craig to say ‘we’ decided!! We heard at convention that God can work with weakness but not with dishonesty
Just wow!!
Townsends: “Craig wants to make exceptions for some people. As such, this year’s convention will not proceed.” (didn’t say WHO cancelled convention)
Craig: “We have decided it is better to cancel Clever this year.”
Looks to me like they were at an impasse regarding Townsend’s rule #2, the complicity restriction. Craig cancelled convention because that rule was too restrictive and the Townsends cancelled convention because they demanded that rule. If Craig had agreed to the rule they would have had convention, and if Townsends had scratched the rule, they would have had convention. So in effect both parties cancelled convention in their own way, because they couldn’t agree (maybe on whether complicity should be forgiven?).
I don’t think this justifies calling out Craig as being dishonest.
It says he wanted to make exemptions when he said ZERO tolerance.
And the Townsends said THEY cancelled not WE. That is the dishonesty. Craig hiding behind the Townsends skirts as it were
Sharon, I agree, the Townsend couple has to be commended for standing on a solid principled basis! As for Craig saying, “we” multiple times in the short letter he signed off on, it’s difficult to determine just who Craig is referring to with the use of “we”. I think Craig is referring to his contact with one of the big three supremes, possibly Ray Hoffman. The job of overseer, or to get into the big three, is very political. Not much different than seeking the office for govern of a state, or positioning yourself for president. It doesn’t just happen. It appears Craig talked too big a game with the, “CSA will stop with me”, bravado and got called on it by a big three. What will be interesting next is to see WHO is on the tour speakers list at Rogers 2, the backup convention to Clever, and being held the same week Clever was to take place. The reason, or the person, Clever was cancelled for, almost certainly will be a sex predator worker speaking from the platform at Roger 2, that was slated to preach at Clover. So, as Craig says, all those from Missouri who would like to attend a convention will have access to one. At Roger 2 you’ll most likely have access to more than just a convention!
Craig said “SA and CSA will stop with me.” He did NOT say “SA/CSA complicity will stop with me.” Please don’t confuse the two. The first is black and white, the second is many shades of gray.
Might be, it would be a logistical nightmare to staff his convention with such subjective restrictions, given the past prevalence of CSA/SA within the fellowship.
Having a hard stop sign for offenders and accused makes sense. All the unprecedented safety protocol makes sense (if only to make people feel good about “doing” something). I assume Craig was good with all that. This line in the sand is the following: “We will not permit access to the convention grounds by anyone (including Workers) who has knowingly allowed a predator to continue to cause harm (EG: falling to warn Friends, covering up, or moving a sexual predator to another location).”
Gray area alert! Subjective restriction is a logistical nightmare, and although I applaud the intent behind it, enforcement would be a BIG PROBLEM. Who is going publish the list of all people coming to the convention and solicit complicity allegations? Who is going to field and vet all complicity allegations? Who is going to hold complicity hearings and rule on the degree of complicity? How complicit is a worker who transported a perp to another state on orders from their overseer? How complicit is their companion for riding along? How complicit the overseer if he was just following orders from one of the big three? How complicit is a relative or an elder who didn’t believe or act on accusations? How complicit are others in the meeting if they didn’t believe or act on accusations they heard of? Is there a process to apply for complicity forgiveness? Who will judge if there is sufficient repentance to justify forgiveness? What is the level of complicity on a scale of 0-10 that cannot be forgiven?
So given all the subjectivity and complexity, I have to wonder, is CSA/SA complicity really a reasonable restriction for convention owners to stake their convention on? And if CSA/SA complicity is the line in the sand, I don’t see ANY overseers budging on that point. So looks to me like Clever is cancelled permanenty, unless the Townsends change their minds on that particular point.
I am calling bs alert! on your post, mferguson (if the moderators permit me).
Read #2.
Then read #2 again.
“We will not permit anyone…who KNOWINGLY allowed a predator to continue to cause harm…”. Pretty clear.
And the best you can come up with is to confuse, obfuscate, list hypotheticals, what ifs, etc, etc. Obviously, in your opinion, when there is doubt (gray area, as you call it) about the complicity of someone who KNOWINGLY allowed a predator to continue, give the benefit of the doubt to that complicitor (to coin a word), not the potential victim(s), or any future target of the pred/perp? Yep, that’ll help eliminate this scourge.
I applaud Lecil and Gaby for #2 and would not change a word. I hope other conventions will adopt these guidelines/protocols.
First: It is neither helpful nor constructive to throw around words like bs, best you can come up with, confuse, obfuscate, hypotheticals. And please don’t project opinions on me that aren’t my own.
Second: Plese read my post, then read it again, and pay particular attention to the part where I say “I applaud the intent behind” #2.
Third: Please write a helpful response. What is “pretty clear” to you is not so clear to me. So a helpful response would be for you to 1) attempt to understand my point of view (even if you don’t agree with it) and 2) respond to the intent of my questions and explain what implementation & enforcement of #2 would look like in the real world.
stand for the truth (small t) — I wholeheartedly agree with you! . mferguson talks with so much “lawyer speak”, the very language Jesus hated. “How complicit (is) the overseer if …, how much is someone else complicit if….”. The lawyers, or ” minds” of the day were always trying to trap, or test Jesus. In Luke 10:25-26 it says, “On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (26) What is written in the Law? Jesus replied. “How do you read it?”. With mferguson’s thinking there is no black and white, right or wrong. mferguson’s thinking is similar to Craig’s, Merlin’s, Ray’s and Barry’s and all the rest of the organization leadership. Compromise, always room for leeway. The sophisticated lawyer wanted to test Jesus. The lawyer wanted to know what he should do to grasp this kingdom blessing of eternal life. Jesus leads the lawyer to understand that his obligation is to love God and love his neighbor. Ps 97:10 says, “To love God, we must hate what He hates and love what He loves”. God hates compromise, and compromise is what this church’s leadership is all about. Jesus was not complicated and most certainly didn’t compromise.
Just Wondering,
I asked nicely in my post just above yours to not project opinions on me that weren’t my own, so please forgive me if this comes aross too harshly.
When you presume to know my way of thinking, you misrepresent my position. This is a straw man attack, a classic argument fallacy.
You’ve made out my way of thinking to be “just like” those straw men you refer to who are so commonly and easily attacked.
As for Jesus hating “lawyer speak:” you have good thoughts on the subject. I would think that Jesus had more dislike for the intentions that were behind the “lawyer speak” than the “lawyer speak” itself.
As to the “love his neighbor” scripture reference: I think we could all do well to remember that. I certainly don’t feel a lot of neighborly love in many of the comments on Wings.
As to compromise: Don’t mercy and forgiveness have a role to play in all of this? I feel like forgiveness in particular is why the complicity restriction is such a big deal to the workers. I think their compromise that you dislike comes from a desire to follow Jesus’s teaching on forgiveness. And to the point of my original post, there are so many varying degrees of complicity, that with rule #2, I just don’t see how to logically and logistically implement judgement vs. forgiveness for complicity.
The problem is that those who are standing inside the box are the ones trying to lift the box. It never works. I talked to a friend who is educated in these matters. The workers need to get out of the box and leave the solution to professionals (preferably professing). They need to hand it over to those who have years of experience and understanding.
Having these meeting amongst themselves is going nowhere. All these letters are just words. We need action – decades ago
Do not trust Craig W. He has a history of refusing to turn in pedophiles when he knows for a fact they have molested children. He in fact knew it within a hour or so and refused to call 911. He is a dishonest slim that needs to be removed from his place of power. I am not using my real name to protect the victims identity.
Why? Why? Why? Do people leave it to the workers to call 911?
When a crime is committed, call 911!
When a child has been harmed, it’s not a worker problem. It never was!
Mferguson, it appears Craig Winquist set the standard when he said, “SA and CSA will stop with me.” In the letter the Townsends wrote they said, “We believe Craig understands the gravity of this responsibility and feel a bond of unity to work with him on this. During our meeting, while discussing our distress about wrong actions of the past, Craig said, “SA and CSA will stop with me.” He is adamant that our region has victim-survivor focused policies to create long-term solutions that protect the Friends and support victim-survivors…We stand firm in our decision that no alleged abusers or those who have been responsible for covering up abuse will be allowed to attend our convention”. There was no mention of, ” varying degrees of complicity”, or forgiveness for complicity by Craig. What the Townsend couple stated was straight forward. What Craig said in his letter was anything but straight forward saying, “Another development in a strange and difficult year. We have decided it is better to cancel Clever this year”. If Craig is really all about, “SA and CSA will stop with me”, then Craig needs to address that issue and not just cancel a convention. The Townsends did address the issue stating, “We (Lecil and Gaby) feel moved to protect our Friends from those, including workers, who have knowingly allowed predators to continue to cause harm. We can only open our home to these people once they have taken actionable steps to right their wrongs and have re-earned the trust of our fellowship and those they harmed. Craig wants to make exceptions for some people”. The Townsend couple is talking about people that did wrong and ” harmed” others. Craig wants to make exceptions for people that have NOT taken actionable steps to right their wrongs, and re-earn the trust of the fellowship, and those these abusers have harmed, as stated by the Townsend couple. There does not seem to be an issue of complicity and Craig said nothing about forgiveness.
Thanks for the helpful response. Your thoughts are well articulated and logical. Even though Craig said nothing about forgiveness, I feel like it is the driving issue in the Craig/Townsend disagreement. Workers have been quick to blame past “mishandling” on ignorance, ie didn’t know perps reoffence statistics, didn’t know how manipulative perps could be, didn’t know the extent of damage caused by perps, etc. And I think it’s likely that Craig feels the need to forgive his peers for past “mishandling.” And I can see how Craig might want to forgive now whereas the Townsends want to see evidence of actionable steps first.
Mferguson, I don’t feel it’s Craig Winquist place to, ” forgive his peers for past “mishandling.” ” That is up to the sexually abused victims of these workers, not up to Craig Winquist, whose life is not filled with trauma because of a sexual predator’s evil actions. “We (Lecil and Gaby) feel moved to protect our Friends from those, including workers, who have knowingly allowed predators to continue to cause harm…Craig wants to make exceptions”.
mferguson, first, I apologize to you and to Wings for the ‘bs’ term. It was inappropriate and unnecessary on this forum. I’m sorry I used that term.
As to the crux of the matter, I have read and re-read Lecil and Gaby’s safety protocol #2, and read and re-read your response. To me, it’s more clear than ever. Their intention is to refuse entrance to anyone (including workers) “who has KNOWINGLY allowed a PREDATOR to CONTINUE to cause harm…” They are trying to do the right, moral, thing in some small way to say ‘enough’! And yes, probably to recognize their potential liability for failure to comply with applicable laws. And is it likely that some who are in some way complicit to the above slip through the ‘gates’? Of course. Is it likely that some who have pedo tendencies/practices, but haven’t been caught yet will slip through? Undoubtedly.
But,I don’t believe for one minute that Lecil and Gaby intended to refuse entrance to the mother who happened to know that her young worker son, who was the companion of another worker who had been ordered (by an overseer) to transport a perp/pred across state lines. (ie 5% complicit?) That’s a borderline ridiculous hypothetical ‘gray area’. (Mine) Now if the driver worker knew he/she was being asked to transport a known perp/pred across a state line against the law, I would hope that that someone who purports to be a ‘true minister of God on earth’ would have the integrity and decency to refuse that overseer who didn’t have the same moral integrity. Well, we can hope.
Ok, enough from me on this. I still wholeheartedly applaud Lecil and Gaby for their stand, and hope other convention owners will do the same.
Your apology is well received and your helpful logic filled response even more so. I did get a little carried away with the “borderline ridiculous hypothetical.” Even though you didn’t answer my question directly, your response triggered the answer about how to implement and enforce the complicity rule. I was making it too complicated when simply put, it’s the Townsend’s property and it’s the Townsend’s rule, so it’s the Townsend’s enforcement. They decide who is complicit and who isn’t. They decide who has taken actionable steps to right their wrongs, and who hasn’t. They decide who has gained back trust and who hasn’t. They decide who to forgive and when to forgive. Annnnnnnnd that’s why the workers have such a problem with that particular rule: incurable chronic twitching in the power hierarchy.
Well stated. The whole complicity gray area is a mine field, for sure, and I don’t think it was the Townsend’s intention to ‘stick their toes in to test it’s boundaries’, as it were. Think about the hundreds of parents of CSA victims who were intimidated by workers/overseers to not report the abuse. Complicit? Yes, technically, but I don’t think it was/is the Townsend’s intention to exclude them from convention. But, to your point, I guess the way #2 is written, they could if chose to do so.
I’ll go back to what I posted a few days ago, that, IMO, convention owners should together come up with a common safety protocol. The Townsend’s would be a good starting point. A difficult task, for sure, but, sadly, one that is desperately needed.
I believe that when it was understood that CW (overseer, from ON, Canada who has KNOWINGLY allowed a PREDATOR to continue to cause harm) would be attending the convention at Clever, the folks stood up to Craig. CW allowed one convicted pedophile at Iron Bridge convention in ON in June 2023. Also CW allowed another perp to attend Dunnville convention in June 2023. So the Townsends CERTAINLY did the proper thing. Thank you to the Townsends.
H&J, thanks for the update. That being said, Craig Winquist has no shame, NONE, along with CW, the overseer, from ON, Canada. These people are so far from the standard set by Jesus, it is very obvious they are not following His direction so clearly written in the Bible. It amazes me people tolerate these despicable humans to be in their presence, at a church convention no less. Can anyone really believe these people, that have looked the other way while extremely wicked and cruel acts took place, are leaders in a religious organization?! The minds of these leaders has to be so corrupted and vile, that they have no fear, nor respect for God. Craig Winquist and the church overseer, from ON, Canada who has “KNOWINGLY allowed a PREDATOR to continue to cause harm”, are both complacent in this harm and damage caused, that will last the entire life of the victim. People need to stand up and stop this madness!!!
Its time to put up. If any convention ground owners would like to sell. Im willing to buy. I would not exclude any Workers in good standing, perpetrators yes, and some of the CCF folks who are trying to wreck this fellowship. Not a problem. Stand by your overseers, or go down the road. Period.
Defender, I suppose you will need to use your real name, so folks can call you when their convention grounds hit the real estate market! You should have a plethora to choose from soon.
Defender: I think it is safest to follow Jesus, not overseers. Paul said to follow me as I follow Christ, and I get that we should follow overseers as they follow Christ. But unlike those Paul was preaching to, we are all literate and have a bible to read and to follow, so we have the privilege of following Jesus DIRECTLY. God is no respecter of persons, and consequently the spirit is no respecter of persons. But if “standing by overseers” is motivated by a feeling that overseers are more Godly and Spirit led than the rest of us, then isn’t that implying that God is a respecter of persons? Do overseers have a monopoly on being spirit led? To be clear: I’m not suggesting that most overseers are not safe to follow or stand by, I just think Jesus is the safer bet.
What I don’t think is safe, on the other hand, is a “stand by your overseers or go down the road” attitude. It feels like the same attitude as the 1999 Alberta excommunication (if you read those accounts and listen to the audio, it might change your perspective). At any rate, I think the perception that the current crisis is an uprising or a rebellion led by the devil will lead to much more damage to the fellowship than the CCF folk’s discussion. The fellowship is not perfect by a long shot, due in a large part to the “stand by your overseers or go down the road” mentality. And I think the sooner we recognize this, the better off we will be.
Very well stated, mferguson, I couldn’t agree more. For far too long professing people have believed the doctrine (sometimes spoken, sometimes implied) that their salvation was in the hands of the workers, esp. overseers. That goes right back to Wm Irvine’s ‘Living Witness Doctrine’. ‘You must remain in good standing in the fellowship to be saved. We (overseers) have the power to remove you from the fellowship’. My family certainly believed that. When people questioned the workers about Irvine too vigorously, they were threatened/removed, lost meetings in their home, were shunned, etc.
An overseer is quoted as preaching (a few years ago) that ‘questioning the ministry is the first step into darkness’, resulting in several courageous people willingly leaving the fellowship. Intimidation? Absolutely. Questioning the ministry would instead have shone much needed light on some very evil practices. Coverups don’t do well in bright light.
Now (apparently), questioning, reporting, and demanding that some overseers come clean, apologize, and even step down for decades of aiding and abetting sexual crimes against children and others is seen as ‘wrecking the fellowship’? Wow. I think it’s the one chance to preserve this fellowship. The statement posted by Defender “stand by your overseers, or go down the road. Period.” is nothing if not cult-like.
IMO, it’s time for professing people everywhere to curb the unlimited, unwarranted, and unscriptural power that has been granted to, and so thoroughly abused by, the overseers.
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. Thank you for posting it.
Mferguson — exactly what needs to be said! ” I think it is safest to follow Jesus, not overseers…we are all literate and have a bible to read and to follow, so we have the privilege of following Jesus DIRECTLY”. Spot on!!!
mferguson: As the subject here is to STOP ABUSE and protect and help the “abused” heal; the subject of ‘overseers’ and their lack of wanting to reduce, protect, expose and/or Take on Their Responsibility: comes to the VERY forefront. And as you know, as a result more are abused AND the “abused” are re-victimized; often because the abuser or the protector of the abuser is again in their personal space.
mferguson: Your answer to Defender is: To follow Jesus. As Jesus came as the King of Israel=Jews Matthew 2: 1- 2, 27:11, :37: Luke records this also 23:3, :37
We cannot follow Jesus. Jesus was sent to bring God’s Chosen Nation of Israel back to himself:
Is this of any importance to you ? or to anyone?
Does it matter what is really written and recorded by the very “Spirit of Christ”? in our Holy Bibles?
Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
To answer: Is this important? Yes, it is! Knowing this explains WHY: the workers have N O problem with “extreme vile” “abuse”. Who is their leader?
They operate under their own values and conscious to preserve their group…
WHY did that Nation need to come back to God?
Exodus 19:5,6 explains God’s plan:- so that Nation of Israel could be a Nation of Priest to all the other non-Jewish Nations(=Gentiles). Why Gentiles ???Ephesians 2:11- :12 answers the question. For 2000 years God sought to bring man made in his own image; unto himself.
All people were Gentiles=Nations. When God placed Abram and promised him his seed would be great Nation….Genesis 12:3 in thee shall all nations be blessed. Exodus 19:5,6 God through Moses tells His Nation of Israel how this is to happen. That Nation would and could NOT! They killed their King Jesus.
Now you Quote 1 Cor. 11:1. THIS quote sticks vividly in our minds as ‘a worker’
quoted as you do. When we corrected him that it actually reads: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Paul is: “I also am of Christ”.
This worker became very angry.(the amazing thing is this is ALSO what MOST Denomination teach). Horror of Horrors, YES!; they teach to follow Jesus.
Jesus was the God,man made in image of God. Christ was the Risen, man: seated in the “heavenlies”. It was the Risen – ascended – God the Son who had in the flesh; named Jesus by Gabriel commanded to Mary- Luke 1:31. Gabriel explained to Mary who Jesus would become :32;: (Isaiah 9:6-:7) became a King. The Lord God shall give unto Him the “throne of his father David”.
:33 AND he shall reign over the “house of Jacob” FOR EVER; and of :his” kingdom there shall be NO END!!! Is this the Gospel you prophessed to?
WELL, that is exactly What Jesus Himself preached.
Matthew presented the record of Jesus as the “King of Israel”.
As Jesus began to preach; What was his Good-News (Gospel) to Israel ?Math.4:17, :23 Israel must “repent” of their national sin. Why?
Their promised; covenanted Kingdom of Heaven was at hand! Did Israel as a Nation “repent”??? NO, they thumbed their nose at Jesus and their very rulers-leaders demanded Jesus death.
Do you think you or anyone can follow Jesus? To bring that Nation to God?
The 12 apostles tried, and many believed – 5-6 thousand but the very Government of Israel “blasphemed” the very “Holy Spirit”. They did not follow Jesus. Acts is the record of God turning from Israel putting their Kingdom on “HOLD”.
It is a futile effort for anyone to think THEY CAN Follow or do what Jesus did.
When you quote Paul as following Jesus: we are sure you are quoting some preacher; as they mistakenly miss read THIS big time.
Paul’s message was and is The Good-News of the “finished work of Jesus” on the cross to pay for all mens “sins”. Paul explains in his letter to the Romans: EVEN Jews are NOW sinners! JUST like the Gentiles. Romans 3:9-:12 .
Paul’s message was-is: This IS the GOSPEL!
God has turned from Israel. Jews are now; no longer God’s Nation!: Jews are NOW the same as Gentiles(Non-Jews). Rom. 3:12 there is none that do good…
You read Romans 3:21 – :31 BUT NOW: is Our Gospel today. Ephesians 3:1-:9 Romans 11: explains what happened to Israel. During this time of Israel’s blindness; God is :7-:12 through Israel’s fall salvation is come to the Gentiles. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 This is NOW God’s “Good News” to a hopeless world.
The “crucified Jesus”(who is Christ), your “messiah” :3 has paid your sin debt.
:4 he was buried, and ROSE again. Jesus, the Christ “rose again”! It is finished!
Defender: That is exactly the conditions that have been so harshly enforced.
We come in; take over; and you either enjoy your great privilege of ‘Conv. Place’ and swallow all your standards and knowledge OR we bug “off” leaving you in a wake of slander. Yes: Defender, evidently you have never lived for weeks as conv. preps progresses. You have never had to be on medication for extreme stress; so that all those who need conv.; can have conv.. Yes, you need to buy a couple or three; because you have never LIVED LIFE TO IT”S FULLEST until you have lived with a bunch of “workers” for “conv. preps”!
Oh, there are so many fun things, you get to watch; as you swallow deeply and KEEP YOUR Mouth-Shut. Yes, that experience and knowledge is burnt into your brain — and you live with it 24/7 for 52 weeks a year for ever.