June 16, 2023
Dan Lawty,
There have been multiple allegations that you have engaged in consensual sexual relationships with several adult females while serving as a worker in Alaska and Washington. The status of these women varied from married, attending meetings and in the ministry. Although this behavior is not criminal in Alaska, it is a violation of biblical and ethical standards that are embraced across a variety of professions, including ministers and clergymen, and is illegal in many states. This is conduct unbecoming to a minister of God.
While serving as the overseer for the State of Alaska, you failed to adequately respond to several requests to address concerns regarding children being in a meeting with a known sex offender. There were multiple requests made by the family to be reassigned to a different Sunday morning meeting after this same convicted sex offender’s conduct made them uncomfortable. You failed to reply in a timely manner and did not communicate regarding your negligence. You failed to respond when the convicted offender did not abide by your decision and still showed up at meeting. You did not truthfully communicate with affected persons about the status of the situation and did not truthfully communicate with the family regarding the magnitude of the opposition to this decision. You made multiple commitments to communicate openly regarding this situation and failed to do that in any capacity, resulting in the chaos that ensued.
While serving as the overseer for Alaska, you failed to adequately inform and protect attendees at the Wasilla convention in 2022. You had been previously informed of an individual whose past history of sexual misconduct involved multiple minors. This individual was assigned to night patrols during the convention in 2022 and attended a recreational co-ed overnight social gathering at a remote cabin after convention. Parents were not advised of the exposure to risk. Appropriate safety measures were not put in place and previous victims were not told of his attendance at Wasilla convention.
Your past history with Linda Borders and Richard Schober is altering your ability to make sound decisions that involve them.
Due to your inability to perform the necessary responsibilities of protecting women and children in your congregation, we are requesting that you be placed or willingly place yourself on administrative leave until these allegations can be investigated by professionals. It is not appropriate to continue preaching to a congregation until these allegations can be resolved.
With respect and concern for the flock,
Simon and Jennifer Ford
In the interest of clarity and completeness, I am compelled to write this in a complete story to hopefully avoid confusion. Many have asked specific questions or know part of the story and sometimes this leads to conclusions that are not accurate and assumptions due to not having the whole story. This was our experience with a convicted pedophile in meeting with our children.
Last fall, in September 2022, we were informed by our overseer, DL, that there were going to be some meeting changes. I expressed a mild level of sadness as we love our meeting, but said I was willing for a change knowing that our meeting is very large and quite often goes over the hour time frame. I have a large family and 6 of my children now take part so I understood the need to make the meeting smaller. I did not hear this from DL, but a friend told me that we were going to be put in a meeting with RS. I reached out to DL and told DL that I wanted to talk to my family about it because we had already, years earlier, decided to not be in Wednesday bible study with RS. DL Iet me know that it had been 40 years since he had been in jail and that he had not been a problem in the meetings. He also told me that there had already been two families in that meeting with small children and he was looking to put another family in that meetings. He explained that the small children were loud and it was interfering with feedback in some that wore hearing aids and that my children were all old enough to be quiet in the meeting. My husband and I told DL that we would like to meet with RS, as all I knew about RS at the time was that he had molested his daughter and gone to prison. My husband and I met with DL and RS on September 30, 2022. RS told us about his abuse of his daughter and spent much time telling us about the sex offender program that he completed and he felt that he was one of the 2% success rate. He told us that he comes to meeting early and leaves right after and does not participate in the socializing afterwards. I told him of my own CSA experience by my father and told him that I am very sensitive to this issue and that I “would be watching” him to which he replied, “And well you should.” We told DL that we would be willing to try it, DL assured me that if I was uncomfortable, he would move us out and RS said if I was uncomfortable that he would go to another meeting. I felt satisfied with those conditions. At the end of this meeting, as we were all standing to leave RS blurted out a whole string of additional information. He said he had molested more children than he could count, probably hundreds. He said he had hung out at parks and schools and molested kids that were off on their own and sometimes molested several in a day. My husband and I were shocked and horrified but we had been convinced that he had gone through the program and that he had been rehabilitated.
The day after that conversation, RS called me to see if I was okay and said he knew it was traumatic to talk about. I was not comfortable with him calling me, but he did seem to be just reaching out in care and I wanted to be kind. He called a couple more times in the next few weeks and shared some poetry and thoughts he had. Again, I was uncomfortable but felt like I was overreacting and didn’t want to make a big deal about it. The first meeting in the home was fine and RS did what he said he would do. A few weeks into the arrangement, I was gone on a trip and when I returned RS called me to ask if I had a problem with my children passing the emblems in meeting. I said that we didn’t prohibit them and he proceeded to explain in great detail which of my boys passed the emblems past one of their siblings. He described the physical features and the shade of hair color so specifically that I knew exactly which boys he was describing. I assured him again that my husband and I do not have a hang up about our children passing the emblems, I said that I wasn’t there and didn’t know what he was talking about. After I hung up, it hit me. . . why was he watching my boys when the emblems were being passed?? He doesn’t even sit by them. But, again, I didn’t want to raise a fuss about a little thing so I didn’t say anything. As the weeks went by he started pushing the boundaries more and more. My nine year old came up after meeting and said RS shook his hand after meeting. This happened a number of times with different children and I was noticing that he always shook the hands with the children that were with an older sibling or on the other side of the room from me. My children had been instructed to not leave the house until RS Ieft, but when we saw him leave, we let the children go out to the car. RS started going out the door and then hanging around outside and speaking to the children. RS was also attempting to control the length of the meeting. He passed the microphone and said the meeting had already gone past time and then the next week he let us all know at the beginning of the meeting that he wasn’t going to take part but was just going to listen. My large family, who is over half the meeting, felt like he was attempting to correct us. I have no problem with an elder or worker giving us correction about our testimony length, but it felt very out of line for him to assume that role. At this point I was uncomfortable enough that I wanted out. I asked if we could meet with DL again, he agreed and we met the day after I texted him on Monday, March 20th. DL heard my concerns, said he was sorry that it didn’t work out, and expressed frustration at RS. I asked about changing meetings and he said, “Well, it is complicated” I assumed it was due to our family size, but he didn’t say as much, but I reminded him that RS said he would move. Again DL, said it wasn’t that easy. I asked if RS could be part of the call in meeting that Alaska has for remote individuals. DL said that, yes, that was a good idea. He would have RS call into meeting and not come in person. I said, “No, I don’t mean call into our meeting, I mean the remote bush Alaska meeting. I don’t want to have him listening to my kids’ testimonies.” DL told me a bit forcefully, “I don’t want to introduce him to another meeting!” I was realizing that this was not as easy of a decision as it had seemed to be when we met in September. DL asked us for more time to think about it as he didn’t want to make a rash decision. We agreed to giving him some time. The Thursday that same week, was when one of my adult sons forwarded me the letter regarding Dean. Due to the understandable load put on DL after this news broke, DL asked for more time to make a decision regarding RS. I was trying to be patient and understanding but RS was becoming more and more assertive. He had asked my 21 year old daughter and her boyfriend out to dinner, helped my 17 year old daughter brush the snow off her car, and multiple times had followed my older children to the car attempting to talk to them. We have older children with their own cars and often times they let a sibling ride with them. RS consistently attempted to contact the younger children when they were with the older siblings. My family was on high alert and my younger children had been instructed to run away from him if they saw him, but we were getting really stressed out even when we noticed that he was often watching them intently. After much begging and pleading with DL he finally arranged for us to meet with RS. At my request, I wanted to meet with RS face to face and tell him why I was not comfortable. Just a few hours before we were supposed to get together, DL called and changed the time and location to a home of an elderly lady that is an advocate for RS. I was very uncomfortable with that arrangement but also wanted to get the conversation over as it had now been 4 weeks since we asked DL for a meeting change. I asked my husband if he would bring his audio recorder. I was expecting RS to apologize, agree to a meeting change and then turn around and say he didn’t agree. I was not prepared for what happened at that meeting. I clearly stated the reasons that I was uncomfortable and RS never did address the issues l brought up but some of the things he said to my husband and I were:
“We can always look back… on decisions. ..the very first thing we need to do (pointing finger at me) we need to look at what part we played In it and go from there, forward.
“If shaking hands with your children is inappropriate, then excuse me”
“Look back forty years to your behavior, your behavior, is there something back there? Forty years, that’s forty years ago. And you do not believe that God has healed me and taken care of . . . “
“I said I would not touch them inappropriately. I have not done that.”
“Okay, okay lets go, lets go to the Bible, ok? What is the word of God and it’s the word of God, says if you have a problem with a brother, what are you supposed to do?”
I replied, “RS, we met with you in the fall” RS said, “okay, and you didn’t express any concern about this and you went to DL. And you didn’t come to me. You’re guilty!” (Pointing finger again at me)
“I’m really sorry that you feel that way.” (said to me)
“And it’s about me. I’m the one on the cross here. Sunday afternoon… Sunday evening, after that meeting, and I have. ..and I got hopefully DL and Sean— will vouch for me on this— that I have always left. I have not included myself in your little circle of hugging and shaking hands with everybody. I exit. Always exit— right after meeting. Is that not true, DL?”
DL: That’s. ..that’s what I see.
SF: Did you come back into the breezeway after you. ..you went out to your car?
RS: I did. I was waiting for someone to give something to me. And you know what I saw when I came back in?
SF: My daughter?
RS: I saw Levi. I saw Levi out on the step, I saw Hannah out in the snow, playing in the snow, I did not see either one of you and if I had children…
JF: We are not the ones being called into correction right now.
RS: Don’t you Interrupt me. Don’t you interrupt me!
SF: (to JF) Oh, that’s…
JF: (to SF) Just let it be.
RS: Okay, the thing was, if I would have had children then if I had such strong feelings about a child molester. . .
JF: (softly) You did have children, RS.
RS: …in the meeting, they would have been by my side, so there would not ever have been a chance that he would even get close. I have, I walk, I have walked by and I have raised…
JF: (to DL) DL, can we be done, please? DL, can we please be done? I can’t. . .can we be done?
SF: RS, you literally molested your children, and you’re telling us we’re not good parents? JF: Hannah innocently ran out to pick me a DLdelion and you are chastising me. Yes, and we all have been…
SF: You went to prison for molesting your children and you’re telling us that you would have protected them? Really?
JF: (to DL) DL can we just be done? Can we be done please?
RS: (to SF) Yes. Please leave. Please leave. You’re accusing me of…
SF: Of something that’s been proven beyond a reasonable doubt!
RS: …and I have served my time. Do you know how long I’ve served?
SF: Yeah, you told me.
RS: And you have forgot, have you not… and you have forgot that God has forgiven me, healed me, (indistinguishable)
DL very passively asked RS if he would be willing to call in to the meeting. RS said, “NO, I have been outcast. I’ve been cut off. I’ve been kicked out of meeting. ..Not share in the emblems… not be in the presence of God”.
This meeting with RS was extremely stressful and I was having triggers most of the time there. RS said some of the exact same things that my own father used to manipulate me. RS never did address his actions, but sought to find a way to blame and shame my husband and I. I was experiencing shortness of breath, shaking In my hands and feet, tightness in my chest, pounding headache, increased heart rate and was having flashbacks of my father’s face when I looked up at RS. The voice inflection and the condescending tone and chastising in his voice made me feel like a little girl again being reprimanded by my abusive father. Fortunately, my years of counseling did enable me to have a voice and stand up to him even as I was actively being triggered by his aggressive behavior. DL did nothing to stand up for me during this whole conversation. My husband and I ended up leaving and DL said he would follow up, we waited for hours and no call from DL. We heard from another source that DL was intending to let RS call into the meeting on Sunday. I contacted DL, he agreed to come to supper so we could discuss this. I very clearly told him that I did not want RS to call in and hear my children’s testimony. DL said he had already made the decision and he was only giving RS one more chance, but just one off testimony and he was done. I made arrangements for my married daughter to take my minor children to her Sunday meeting as l did not want them to be in our meeting.
On Sunday, April 16th 2023 RS was allowed to call in to Sunday morning meeting. He started his testimony by saying, “When I was in prison, when I was in prison for being a sex offender…” and then proceeded to share a very disturbing story about an experience while he was in prison. In this experience, he was asked to leave the room and when he returned his fellow inmates where sitting in a circle with arms linked. He then likened that to our gathering there on Sunday around the emblems. Then, he went on to say that his job was to break into the circle. He looked for and identified the weak spot and he said he” went for it” and tried to break into the circle. He tried 3 or 4 times and was not able to break the circle, then he just asked and they let him in. He said he wished he had realized that all he had to do was ask. Then he finished by saying, “that is where I find myself today.” DL was sitting in that meeting right next to the speaker and did nothing to stop or correct RS.
Again, I was sitting there in meeting, in panic mode… racing heart, tightening in my chest, right foot and hand shaking, and flashbacks of my dad’s face flooding my vision. He was not in the room, but his presence filled the room. When we went home, my daughter expressed that she felt like we were the weak link that he was trying to use to get back in the circle. It was a very emotional and stressful meeting, not hardly conducive to feeding on Christ. My husband texted DL and let him know that we were all disturbed by that testimony, to which DL replied that he was “thinking of a plan”. I told my husband that DL already had a plan, he didn’t need to think about it anymore. I also told my husband that I could no longer go to that meeting, if DL wouldn’t move us then I just wouldn’t go there anymore. I called our former elder and asked if we could come back there next week as l wasn’t going to go back to the other meeting. He asked me if I had spoken to DL and I broke down and started crying and said that DL wasn’t listening to me and told him what had just happened in the meeting. He said we could come back and told me that he would talk to DL.
I was in full panic mode regarding RS and his grooming, stalking and intently watching my children. DL had already asked him to not come to meeting, to only call in and he did not do as DL said. I was afraid of him coming to gospel meeting and harming one of my children. I was also very afraid of the upcoming convention. I started the process of filing for a protective order against RS. I consulted with a local CSA advocate and she pointed out grooming patterns and was also alerted to the troubling attitudes, that RS expressed. I did receive a court date and it was a horribly traumatic experience. RS had some of the friends come and testify regarding his character and lied under oath about his contact with my children. I was not awarded a protective order and was very troubled that none of the friends that testified for him ever once called me to ask me what he had done to my children. It disturbed me that they would not want to gather as much information as they could before going to court and advocating for a man that had this kind of deviant past.
The following week, we went to our former meeting and RS showed up to his meeting like nothing had happened. The homeowner, who is not the elder, asked him to leave. RS said he didn’t understand and the homeowner told him to leave his property and not come back. The homeowner also told DL that he was no longer willing to have the call in option. The homeowner was the one that removed RS, not DL. The week after this, a conflict arose between the homeowner and one of the men that testified against me in court. The homeowner told this man that, “God put it in the heart of a mother to protect her children from a child molester, but God never put it in the heart of a man to molest a child” The result of this contention was that the meeting was taken out of the homeowner’s home and put into a home that is in full support of RS and advocates for him.
In the process of preparing for the court hearing, I contacted AFTT and requested a notification to be sent out asking for more info about RS. I was not able to use these documents in court as l was not aware of witnesses needing to be there in person and I had obtained written statements. But, I have since learned some very disturbing information about RS and have also learned that DL knew about this before he put our family in the meeting. Because of the hotline and the avenue of social media, I have become very aware of his past. A friend reached out to me and shared a letter that he had written to Gary Paul in 2005 regarding RS and his behaviour.
He was in the work and abused children at convention and in private homes of the friends. He has molested hundreds of children and was the most prolific offender in WA state when he was convicted. He refused to complete the sex offender program and was hospitalized in Medical Lake as being criminally insane. He agreed to be chemically castrated in lieu of prison time. He is currently on medication to control his “urges” and if he goes off the medication, the “urges” come back.
My biggest concern at this point, is how the situation was handled when I clearly requested to be taken out of the meeting. This was before DB and I did not ask for RS to be removed from the fellowship, but I did not want my family in meeting with him. As RS became increasingly assertive toward my children, I was growing increasingly fearful that he was going to molest one of my children. He was following them out of gospel meeting and one time even waited at the door for my adult daughter to come out so he could talk to her about the dinner invite. I have text records of me begging DL to take care of the situation, I reached out to Darryl Doland, Wayne Bechtol, Julie Raab, and even Lyle Schober (a relative) to try to get help. They all referred me back to DL and assured me that he would take care of it. DL was very empathetic for RS and began to avoid my husband and me. As convention season approached and I did not get the restraining order, I was very concerned about convention. I had by this time heard many other ladies tell me about times he had pushed the boundaries in previous years and that RS had been multiple times reprimanded about contacting children. I also was contacted by a number of individuals that shared with me their concerns and conversations with DL regarding his choice to put us in that meeting. I was unaware of any other concerns regarding that and felt like DL should have expressed those concerns to us. Because of how passive DL was in asking RS to not come to meeting, I was in NO way confident that DL had the stamina to enforce any violations.
What I have become very clear about is that DL is not able to make firm decisions about protecting women and children. He has not been honest in his dealing with us and has intentionally hidden information from us to further his agenda. DL had also been involved in other situations regarding CSA in previous years that we were not satisfied with how they were handled. These and the immoral relationships while he was in the work have caused us to just feel like DL is not in a position to be leading a flock. We had a conversation with him after gospel meeting asking him if he would step down and stating the reasons why.
I do not believe that every worker that mis-handles a situation should be removed. There has been an outcry lately that the workers have not been willing to listen to victims. I know there have been times when victims did not want the authorities involved or the decision was made to not press charges because the victim did not want to, but when my children were being actively pursued and I was very clearly asking to just be taken out of the meeting, it is beyond my comprehension why this wasn’t an easy choice. I have a hard time following anyone in the ministry that cannot make choices when we are begging for help. I have a difficult time understanding why Darryl would not step in when DL was not dealing with the situation.
DL and DD did not seem to be listening to me with the intent to resolve the problem. I felt like they were trying to avoid me as much as possible. They kept putting me off, ignoring my texts and calls or giving me vague answers that didn’t give me any definitive answers. I was a terrified mother trying to protect her children from a known very prolific and assertive pedophile and was asked to wait for weeks while DL tried to figure out what to do.
I have a great concern for where our ministry is right now. We have been harboring pedophiles in the work and the workers have been harboring them amongst the friends. This is a grave, serious concern and is not being taken very seriously by a large majority of the ministry. Trust is a big issue, and not easily re-built when it is something this serious. A worker doesn’t have to know all about CSA, Ministry Safe or reporting laws to listen to the cries of a sheep and step in and protect them. It seems to me that love would prompt anyone with any amount of empathy to step in and protect a child. If someone does not have the basic desire to help a mother protect her children, I can’t reconcile in my heart how they should be preaching the gospel of love and be teaching about how to be childlike. I see the only way forward that results in healing and restoration is for any workers that were not willing to listen to the cries of the victims to recognize that they do not have the heart of a shepherd and willingly step down. There are many younger workers in positions where they are stifled and unable to do much, but they have reached out to victims with love and concern. These are true shepherds. I believe there are many still in the work that are faithful and have a genuine love for the sheep. I love so much about our fellowship and I believe the ministry is scriptural, but wolves have gotten in and we do not have a process to remove them.
***PREDATORS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN MEETING. IT CAN STIR UP THEIR OWN DESIRES TO BE AROUND CHILDREN AND IT CAN TRIGGER CSA VICTIMS TO HAVE THEM IN THE MEETING***
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I’m so sorry for this experience. I hope DL either wakes up or is removed from the ministry. People who support RS also need a wake-up call. There are a lot of people in the fellowship who think that forgiveness means that risk management is thrown out of the window and such thinking is beyond ignorant.
It’s disgusting that RS claims he’s the one on the cross. There’s a similar situation in my state where a known offender is seen by many as the victim to the point they also compare him to Jesus. Such comparisons are outright blasphemy. Jesus was the son of God, lived without sin, and was sacrificed so we all can have an opportunity for God’s mercy. There is no valid reason for a pedophile to be compared with Jesus.
Please tell me Dan Lawty is not still in the work. This is disgraceful!
Oh my word…the arrogance of the molester. I listened to the call and it left me in tears. Absolutely unbelievable that this man is/was allowed in meetings with children. Sickening. Simon and Jennifer, you are to be commended for your spirits and how you kept your composure. Good for you for standing for what is right and guarding your children (and others) from evil.
DL is far from being the only worker who is known for having relationships. Sexual immorality is allowed in the ministry.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It is essential that as much information be put forward as possible. I know it is so hard to share because it’s almost like going through the experience again, but every additional letter about how things are handled helps others to see.
I think we are bit in a bit of an echo chamber right now, but we can read it here and share it with those who would choose to turn a blind eye.
there is really nothing excusable in the way that this was handled. Kudos to you for your part in all of it. You did as much as anyone humanly could.
Thank you for sharing this experience, even though reading it makes my skin crawl. It is beyond understanding how anyone could possibly think someone with RS’ history and on-going behavior should be allowed anywhere near children, much less to speak with them or shake their hands (as a clear part of a grooming process).
Everywhere we must insist on the approach described in Bryan & Celia Hansen’s letter posted on this site in early July 2023:
“So I encourage us all to only focus on the wolves to expel them from doing harm. … The wolf can only be saved by a Father who can replace the heart of the wolf with the heart of the sheep, and that is nothing but a miracle. However, in this situation, around predator behavior…repentance means voluntarily removing themselves from any contact with sheep as the sheep still are likely to have a strong and expected fear response. And loving others truly from the heart would mean that the predator would begin to understand and feel things from the perspective of the prey, and would understand that they may not be able to both be loving AND in constant contact with most of the sheep, but only with the Shepherd.”
DL is a cousin by marriage only. I have complete trust in him finding away to resolve this to protect people from CSA or SA. NOT sure what the problem would be for a call-in it seems like a very good solution. They are near NO ONE at all. You could even ask them not to speak at all that would be fine. Understand the differences between (USA) Level One thru Three as pedo’s. Level one’s do have a slight chance of rehab.Two’s almost zero and Three’s never. It would be nice to know which is it for this RS guy.
What does it matter if the emblems are passed by a kid or adult I’ve never heard of that as an issue?
Several told me that a few years ago one of our resident pedo’s (BD) started hang out with little boys again at convention. DL made him leave. That doesn’t sound like someone who would “protect” pedo’s.
If DL responds here, then his side in this should be allowed to be expressed and explained.
Just my 2 cents
No one said DL isn’t allowed to respond. I don’t think he will because he’s completely mishandled the RS situation. The family that wrote this letter is not the only family that has had to deal with DL’s love of one of the nation’s most prolific child molesters.
Recently that’s not been the pattern. We get a lot of 1 side but not the other. Even if it’s as evil an issue as CSA or SA…
Anyone who refuses going through and successfully completing a sex offender TX program and chooses an option not involving social and behavioral reform, presents the highest risk to sexually reoffend.
If you look up who is included in level 1 offenders, you’ll find not all of them are even classified as pedos. So, re-offending for them is low. It goes without saying they must go through those programs and complete them successfully.
If you use the search bar here to search for Richard Schober, that will tell you what you need to know including prison time served.
“I have complete trust in him” should be used for one man only – Jesus. IMO. Trusting 100% in a fallible human, which we all are, is not wise. I’m sure that Wings would publish a letter from your cousin if he feels moved to write a response; Wings have been very fair about hearing from both sides.
It is very natural and right to limit access to our children from pedophiles to 0% and I for one would never want a pedophile to be listening in to my children speaking in meeting. That would be so inappropriate. Why expose children to a known risk with no benefit to the rest of the group at all? I’d be creeped out knowing a pedo was listening in and it would affect the spirit of the meeting, obviously. It would also give the pedophile an “in” to a child’s thoughts that week and be a conversation starter for another time, i.e. Oh I heard you talking about such and such verse, I’m from your church and I was listening on the phone. We don’t need to give pedos an “in” to what they crave.
Remote phone listening (audio only) poses zero risk to anyone in mtg, you can even tell them not to take part (speak) if you are gonna be worried with that. Last I knew no one gives their name/age/sex when presenting a testimony there would be no way to connect it to an individual person/child. Back a few months ago when all this broke out in a major way, Went and got real info.
Phones are not illegal for pedo’s to have and use there are rules about it.
I suggest before using speculation and every potential imagination folks go get facts. (Learned this from an atheist ex-2×2 on a forum).
Amen
I’m not sure I am suggesting replacing Trust in God with trust in DL. I worship God not DL.
@thehammer02, you’ve said that you have “complete trust” in your cousin and now you’re saying that there is “zero risk” caused by a pedophile who has already made contact with this family’s children, listening in to them speak at meeting. You are very clearly on the opposite team to me, but may I ask, what is the benefit to the meeting, knowing as they do that a pedo is listening? The benefit to the pedo is obvious – fodder for a sick mind and yes he’ll know the voices of those children and their ages, having already been in meetings with them in person. Families who are uncomfortable in the setting will not feel moved to speak; and this is entirely for the benefit of the pedo? What an upside-down situation.
If a pedo is not physically present nor talking/contacting the children or the adults what risk is there? Mtg’s are to benefit everyone. There are laws about pedo phone use among many other laws. Focus on God instead of who else is there (Remotely one might add).
So sad for you & your family to have to go through this. RS dad Leon S. was also like his sons Richard & Ron. They never change the best thing is to keep them locked up. Children are precious & we must protect them.
I am so sorry for the Ford family. This just breaks my heart. Dan was a good friend when I was in my teens/early 20’s, and now I question why I thought I could trust him. ugh!
I do not agree with ANYONE (alleged or convicted) being allowed to even listen in to a meeting. This is why: if you have been a victim, there are many things that can re-trigger that horrible event (or the series of events). The person’s voice, knowing they are “listening”, or present in any way. We have the right to fellowship, because we have done NOTHING to deserve being assaulted.
RS has NO right to even be around the friends. If he wants to have a relationship with God, he can do so “in fear and trembling” at HIS OWN home. I would fully expect the brother workers to go visit him, to try to help his soul. But, in this above conversation, it is clear as crystal that RS has NO intention of changing his behaviour! My belief for the reason these workers (DL) aren’t removing them from meetings, is because THEY are commiting sin and feel guilty (hypocracy).
My heart aches for you, Simon and Jennifer, and for your children. I’m so disappointed in DL’s continued lack of care and concern. Thank you for sharing these notes and your letter.
To look at this from the “truth” standpoint is needed. Dan ( DL) is an apostle of God. Why do you, or anyone actually question Dan? Please, understand that Dan knows so much more than you! Ask Dan a real question, and you will get your answer. Please, do not question Dan. That is not right. Maybe Dan has a better “truth” than you have and Dan is the abused person?
Not every worker is a true apostle of God. This has been abundantly clear and the scripture also makes it clear.
2Cor11:12-15 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Matthew 7:15
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
We are supposed to be familiar with God so that we can discern what is of the spirit of God and what is something else.
Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Workers who’s actions create such problems should be known by the fruit of their spirit. Obeying someone just because they’re a worker and not discerning the fruits of their spirit is idolatry. Idolatry is a sin against God. I believe many workers are true servants of God. There are others who are not. They are Pharisees who uphold an idolatry of appearance, form, and idolatry. Feeding on their spirit is dangerous.
This is excellent and spot on. 🎯
I would love to see it shared on the other platforms.
Agree,
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Do not question Dan. You’ve got to be kidding.😳
We need to question everyone when their actions are ………..questionable
The comment was made and it was totally facetious. A very serious issue was treated with deliberately inappropriate humor. The value placed on a worker and the position they are elevated to, totally distracts from the level Jesus SHOULD be held up to. Further, the level that the devil, the “worker” of all iniquity, all unfair or gross behavior, needs to be taught and recognized for what it. The depths he would go to, most people would not understand. The workers are not anywhere near the level of Jesus, or His apostles. Their actions stand alone. Where do the workers stand? I really question that. That Point has to be made clear.
What??? You are saying that we should never question a worker?? That he has a “better understanding ” of the situation?? Dan is a human with just as many faults and sins as the next person. He is not on an elevated plane and beyond reproach! That is the very attitude and thought process that has gotten us to this mess. To elevate them is to actually destroy them! It also is putting our faith in mens reasoning rather then God! Take the workers off of the pedestal and do not assume that being in the work makes them “saints beyond sin”!
Amen. That is exactly what got us into this mess. 🎯
These events are so far from zero tolerance. The sex offender was running the show. When will people learn?
An audio and transcript of our meeting with RS is on CCF. What is posted here is my experience. I have asked Dan very specifically why it was so difficult for him to move us, as I really did want to understand why the decision was so difficult. He was vague and elusive and did not have a clear answer. The audio is an unbiased picture and was not altered and had nothing cut out. RS was still allowed to call in and hear my kids testimonies after this and came to meeting the following week like nothing happened. He exhibits many of the manipulative behaviors in the audio. Dan may have handled other situations well, but that doesn’t discredit how he handled this situation.
Before we met with RS (the April 14th audio) I had already told Dan that I did not want RS to call in and hear my kids testimonies, he was allowed to call in and shared a creepy testimony. “When I was In prison for being a sex offender” was how he started his testimony and then told about an exercise where he tried to break into a circle of inmates by finding the weak link. This was in a Sunday fellowship meeting, Dan was leading that meeting and did nothing to stop RS. DL has a history with RS that goes back to his WA days. Dan is back in WA and at Milltown preps for upcoming conventions.
Suzanne,
No one is making that claim/requirement. Never said pedo’s were being denied fellowship with God either. Listening in would be about fellowship with other believers. If you have scripture about there being more than one unforgivable sin please do produce. I’ll be happy to look at it. If you have LE law or a psychological recommendation saying this would be illegal/forbidden/damaging in every case post, I’ll look at that too. I doubt any level of repentance or remorse by a pedo will work for most. If they are a level 2/3 I would agree, unlikely sincere.
@comiccreeper. Your worry about being stoned is a big tell.
Just do us all a favor, keep your fellow creepers far away from our children and vulnerable adults. You are most welcome to leave as well, we don’t need perp promoters among us.
Thank you for your consideration in this matter.
What you are doing is projecting your own issue on to me. Not a good look and alarming to be honest…
thehammer02. PLEASE learn to listen. It’s so easy to take a wrong stand when you really like someone or you’re related. It has helped me to learn about how the ‘victim’ feels, not how I feel. I am not everyone. Victims ARE triggered by voices.
Listen and learn? Did you read the part where I said they don’t even need to speak? uh huh…been working with individuals in the MH community over 30 years. Been around a bit.
@thehammer02
Predators don’t have to speak for a person to feel threatened…knowing a predator is listening can feel threatening…people taking notes and sharing with a predator can feel threatening ..etc
I responded to what Cathy said. Which was voices. We can imagine all sorts of things. The OP letter didn’t take your angle either. Point is the remote listening solution is acceptable from a Christ point and an LE point.
@thehammer02
as always, the onus on the victims. How about the perpetrator having a heart of repentance and recognizing the pain he causes. How about the overseer recognizing that as well. Maybe that’s why the Lord allowed the plandemic. We all clearly learned that we can have fellowship with God without being in a meeting. A perpetrator gives up certain rights, but does still have the ability to have fellowship with God if they so desire.
In that 30 years have you not learned a bit of compassion for a worried Mother who is anxious that her children do not fall prey to the same dreadful experiences she suffered?
Hysteria helps no one. There has been no ruling by people better at monitoring this than you or I about people listening to a church service (audio only) remotely that says it could be a legit threat.
@comiccreeper.
Gosh you people. Empathy is a skill that is attainable. It takes work, particularly for those who lean toward sociopathy.
Let’s look at a hypothetical:
Perp1 abuses child Victim1 multiple times.
Victim1 continues to attend meeting and expresses deeply personal spiritual experiences and feelings.
Perp1 is listening to everything she says.
Do you have any clue what the damages are here? Do you have any clue what CSA does to victims?
Yes, worked with several over the years. Getting hysterical about audio remote listening only is not empathy. Never said the perp should listen in where a victim of HIS is. He can always listen to a different meeting. And I’ve mentioned level 1 perps not level 2 or 3…take a deep breath everyone…
@comiccreeper.
“Never said the perp should listen in where a victim of HIS is.”
You can’t even come right out and say definitively that the specific offender should not be allowed to listen in to his victims. It is little wonder that you don’t understand the damage it does to victims to have ANY sexual abuser listening to their intimate thoughts. That is what zero empathy looks like and why “zero tolerance” is a sham because this level of callousness is rampant. Supporting abusers over victims continues to be priority of this church. Thank you for demonstrating and clarifying that.
your delusions on what i’ve said are your own. seek professional help….
@comiccreeper
Knowingly promoting perps to listen in on victims is beyond delusional. It is vile.
You’re not a rational individual…maybe take a break and come back when you can discuss in a Christ like manner….
Happy to oblige. Here is a little Christ-like talk for you comiccreeper. Then look into the mirror.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.”
“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.”
You appear to be the one about to stone someone, cast the first stone see how it goes…pharisee indeed…
This discussion sounds an awful lot like the overseers who want to get the perverted sexual predators of children back into meetings, in ANY fashion. Why give the sexual predators the slighted t possibility of having any power over anyone who may have been a sexual predator’s victim, or someone who may become a sexual predator’s victim?
Maybe if the predator is “listening “ in on a meeting and someone has a voice that turns them on. Then the game for the predator of stalking begins. Not a fun thing for the prey, or the victim.
Everyone has opportunities and privileges whether going to a meeting, driving a car, or walking down the street. You violate the rules and laws of society and those privileges and freedoms are taken away.
Zero tolerance means you violate a child’s innocence, you sexually assault an adult, or sexually harass anyone and you are not allowed to have anything to do with meetings, the fellowship or anything to do with the church group. You find somewhere else to go to. End of story. Clean house.
Having said that, that’s all that matters because nothing will be done. This whole discussion is a waste of time. The overseers have shown their cards and even though they sometimes talk a good game, that’s all it is, talk. It’s all a distraction, deception, diversion.
The leadership, including the majority of elders, are not sincere in making any changes. They are happy campers with the program as it has been for the last 120 years. Even though the program is being sucked down into the depths of the earth where it belongs, nothing will change.
Just a little advice— don’t let the door hit you on the way out if you’re going to leave, and if you’re going to stay, don’t complain about your feet getting wet when the last of the ship goes down. It’s happening and thankfully FBI agent Scully is here to help.
The reason abuse is allowed to flourish and grow in the “truth” is very simple; the members hold the workers to an exalted, or high and powerful level. Calling a worker, a prophet, or an apostle is just inviting the wolf dressed up like a sheep into your life! Workers are NOT a prophet. A prophet is one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible, or one who actually witnessed the teaching from Christ Jesus. Same for an apostle. Jesus was the ultimate authority and revealer of God’s will. That is contained in the Bible, the beginning and the end. Deuteronomy 4:2 tells us, “Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you”. Thinking the workers are apostles or prophets, and have Devine Authority, and not simply ministers teaching the word of Christ Jesus from the Bible, there will be no fix to the ongoing abuse scandal. It will only fester and grow. The poison is in the thinking and the extreme, elevated position placed on leadership. And, it is not anything Christ Jesus enjoys seeing and certainly would not endorse.
The hammer02
Perhaps the perpetrator could call in to a meeting where no victims or children are.
A meeting where people are not uncomfortable, or terrified with that..
Even if it has to be in another State.
There are consequences for criminal behaviour and this kind is the very worst, it has an ongoing effect.
It’s not unforgivable, but like all sin it needs to be repented of and turned away from.
Why not have perpetrators meeting? There’s enough elders and workers on list that it would seem there would be some great fellowship. The meeting could be state wide, or interstate, if laws allow. They could even have a virtual pot luck dinner once a month.
Thats a possibility. we had 1 mtg here were 3 pedos went no kids/victims… so they could call into one like that also…
agreed….
For Christ: ARE you for REAL? The members have been mislead and brain washed by those very ones who have preached. “THEY ARE Chosen”! God Called me! THE very ones who added or subtracted from God’s Word was and is the “worker”. THEY with very determined and accusative words and Body Language informed us: “they alone have ALL authority over us. YES, even the sister workers. We then gave them NOTHING! WHAT was the cost? 70 Years of worship! They still have all authority in their realm: because they DEMAND it.
And just a reminder: They are NOT simple teaching the word of Christ from the Bible. They do NOT Know what Jesus taught nor to whom Jesus taught. They have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING of Romans 11. NOR do they want to understand.
So it is by misleading people with their ministry, and making wild abusive decision that the keep control of any member who is able and brave enough to think and question THAT keeps them in THEIR ‘REALM’!
The only ones who should be able to give the go ahead to sex offenders participating in meetings in any capacity are victims, survivors and parents. DL and other overseers are superseding basic parental rights when they are the final determination on whether a sex offender participates. The friends have traditionally given over their parental rights, consent, and responsibility to the workers. That is upside down. The workers have never been parents and they simply don’t have the same depth of love for the kids. Not even close. It’s just so messed up on so many levels. You don’t negotiate with sex offenders. You give them any room at all to groom and meetings do allow occasion to groom. RS had an advocate present for that little meeting. He actually had two when you include DL! Jennifer is really the one who needed an advocate present as RS became an aggressor and manipulated the narrative. It’s just so twisted.
Amen!
Any true minister of God, would NOT allow a predator to be in any meeting, until the predator has FIRST turned themselves into law-enforcement. Once they come out of prison, then restitution must take place, and during that time (a minimum of two years – longer if no change is noticable) the perp needs to do some serious restitution (pay penance). Because, WE MUST see a change first before considering any attendance, even if it’s an adults only type situation. If they aren’t willing for any of the 8 steps necessary, then they do NOT get permission from WE the PEOPLE. It’s NOT about the workers or what THEY want!!
@it’s all decided
How would they stalk a voice(only) just wondering…
Creeper – You really need to stop showing your ignorance. Many pervs and peds get off just hearing their victims voice. Please do a little reading and research before posting such an idiotic statement – you may not come across as sounding so stupid next time.
You are so far from fact it’s in another universe far from you…
When is anyone gonna provide some fact based comments instead of hysteria based ones?
creep – my wife is a CSA victim for life by a esteemed cult member – just seeing his name in print puts her into a panic attack – that is a fact -I will not respond further to stupidity and ignorance
Like I said facts are not your friend. Hysteria definitely…