This letter shows how detrimental it is to allow offenders to have a place of power and how important it is not to hide things, so people can make informed decisions to protect themselves.
My experience pales in comparison to the atrocities being revealed. I want to stress the importance of communication and transparency. If there is trouble in a field, that worker needs to be removed, not just moved. Now there is a trail of abuse spanning the country. We should be given all the information so we can make informed decisions for the physical, as well as spiritual, safety of ourselves and our families.
Leslie White moved to his sister’s in Maine in 2012, which is down the road from my parents’ (I am his great-niece). I built a tiny house on my parents’ property a couple years later and have been in meetings with him ever since. He was emotionally and verbally abusive to many in our family but this is about how he affected our meeting and his inappropriateness. We were never told about any of the allegations, aside from the rape as that was the reason he was home. I won’t talk about the rape allegation, to spare Laura further hurt. Suffice it to say, he had many excuses to why it wasn’t true.
Over time he micromanaged our meetings, controlling what we spoke of afterward, etc. As an example, one Bible study at my mom’s he had to use the restroom so he stopped meeting in the middle of testimonies and gave us a hymn to sing while he was gone.
In 2019, after living in NH for a year, my husband and I moved back into our tiny house and agonized over what to do about mtgs. In the end we let the workers choose. Unfortunately, that put us back with Uncle Les. For those who have been asking, he did speak in a Gospel mtg when one of our workers was absent during this time (he also spoke in one this Spring for the same reason. He was having problems with his mind then, so he gave his testimony of going in the work).
Covid precautions split our mtg into two and my husband, mom, and I met with a small family, our elder and his wife, while Leslie became the elder of the mtg left at my aunt’s. I don’t know how he became the elder, seeing as the man who usually took the mtgs at my mom’s (my dad doesn’t go) was still in that mtg. Anyway, we had wonderful fellowship during this time. That lasted about a year, the mtgs merged back together, and our elder went on to another mtg.
Les continued to be elder over the joined mtgs and we were surprised to find he had implemented a rule while we were gone. No one was to speak or move until the person taking care of the emblems returned to the mtg room. This was very awkward when we had visitors and they would give greetings and he would have to quickly explain his rule. Mtgs started lasting an hour and a half that summer so my husband and I talked to U. Les, as my husband is a truck driver and sometimes has to leave right away. My husband asked, “aren’t mtgs supposed to be an hour?” and Les’ response was, “No one ever said that.” Finally we got him to concede and also do away with his emblem rule. Things were slightly better for a while, though we were the only ones who dared talk while the emblems were taken care of, everyone else just kept their heads down. He actually commented on it one day when I spoke, he said, “I had a feeling you’d be the first to speak.” I felt like I was part of a game I hadn’t asked to play.
Since becoming the elder, he would speak or pray first, or at random, instead of last as is the norm. I know this isn’t a big deal and is just a tradition but it does give order to mtgs. He also would interject after someone spoke, to add to their testimony or correct it. I would cringe waiting for him to correct me. Often times he’d speak after someone to continue where they left off, instead of having something of his own prepared. His testimonies lasted 20 minutes, give or take, except when we had visitors/workers.
He would bring politicians into his testimonies and made some outrageous statements like God choosing this man as a little boy that he would save the world. The worst was when a family from our church was absent and, during his testimony, he spoke about personal horrific abuses they’d suffered and shared with him in private. He’d speak about sexual things from the Bible, graphic enough to make me uncomfortable. He also took vast liberties with general details of Bible stories. Meetings had lost peace for me and I had a lot of anxiety.
When I was 19 or 20, he told my grandmother that I was pure and had never been touched. At the time, I was in an abusive relationship and I’m sure she wanted to believe that. Several times he said he knew my husband and I had kept ourselves “pure” for each other. Two of those times were after mtg. Twice (also after mtgs) he brought up that my niece and her husband “did things the right way and waited until they were married.” There was never anything to provoke these statements. Who thinks about other people’s sex lives and comments on them regularly, especially after fellowship?!
One time he did try to enter my husband and I’s room at my parents’ when we were napping, after being told by 3 people that we were sleeping and they had to yell at him down the hall to stop!, all because he needed help with his computer and it would “just take a second.” That instance I believe was due to complete lack of boundaries and respect.
For two years my husband has had to listen to me say every Sunday morning “I don’t think I can do this,” but I’d pull it together to support our mtg. I did stop going to bible studies, though, as there was only so much I could take. I felt like the worst person, with an evil spirit, because I thought everyone around me was able to pray and forgive him and I couldn’t get past it. It was also complicated because I didn’t want to upset the family. My prayers were consumed with thoughts of things I wished I could say to him and yet also begging God to help me forgive him. I felt disconnected from God because I couldn’t get over this and let Him do His work in me. I now wonder if He was urging me to speak up and I wish I had listened because I know others suffered as well.
In mid-June, our worker announced that due to Leslie’s health he would be stepping down as elder. He went on to mention how much help Les had been and how much he’d continue to help in his own way. The following Saturday, June 24th, the letter to Leslie came out. I was livid, disgusted…I can’t even describe my feelings. My heart hurt for all those women. All doubt I had was gone. I have heard him lie many times and these accounts fit with behavior I have seen firsthand.
On the 26th, my husband said enough is enough and he called Ray to tell him what we have been dealing with the last few years. Ray seemed shocked and my husband explained he was always on his best behavior when the workers were around. Ray thanked him for calling and we didn’t hear anything more. That Sunday we went to union mtg at our pre-covid elder’s house, and, at the end, our worker told us that we would be meeting in that home from now on since my aunt was selling her house and moving in with her children. Leslie was not there and no email was sent out to the churches. Our worker did quietly say to my husband, “It’s sad but Leslie won’t be in mtg anymore,” as we were leaving.
I have no clue if it was my husband’s phone call that instigated the removal…I’ve heard Laura contacted Ray and asked again for his removal, so maybe that was it…and yet our worker also told family members that another accusation was soon to come out (it’s been almost a month and we haven’t heard any more about this) maybe that was the reason…
I am angry that overseers and workers knew of the problems U. Les has caused over the years (there have been other accounts of him speaking inappropriately in mtgs, let alone the more serious allegations) and never once did they check in on us and ask how our meeting was going. I think of other meetings around the world that have perpetrators in them and I have to wonder how the spirit is affected. I believe in not writing people off, allowing them to repent (I don’t want his soul lost!!), but when it affects fellowship, more than one person…shouldn’t that be considered? Why is his soul more important than all those he has hurt? And just because he’s not in meeting doesn’t mean God can’t work with him. Meeting is a privilege, not a right, and not the only way someone can be saved.
With wavering hope,
Tavia Pibus
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I don’t know that there are any words that are adequate. I honestly don’t know how you stood it as long as you did, Tavia. in my personal opinion, those of you who sat through this and endured it are saints, in the true sense of the word. It is horrifying and bizarre and utterly mind-boggling the damage this man has been allowed to do. THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN EXCUSE THE COVERUP OF THIS CREEP’S SINS AND CRIMINAL ACTS. ANYONE WHO COVERED FOR HIM IS NOT FIT FOR THE MINISTRY IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. UTTERLY DISGUSTING.
I have mixed feelings about this. I think we have an old man who hasn’t lived up to the realities of his crimes and in old age has not learnt. Some of these items aren’t really issues – because in everyone’s lives their will be others perspectives.
I think some of this behaviour is common – in our meeting the elder may or may not speak last. In our meeting, there is no speaking when the bread and wine leaves the room, in other meetings (in the same country) things are done differently – I have never once thought this was someone ruling over. I would encourage caution for over thinking on these “issues”.
HOWEVER, the fact you weren’t made aware of the accusations wasn’t helpful, I am concerned you were aware of the rape allegations and that it didn’t seem to impact you at the time. He should never have been leading anything with that hanging over his head.
I think many people only saw the full picture on your uncle when it was compiled together. You can dispute a rape, but you can’t dispute the multiple levels of abuse.
The rape allegations impacted us all, however, when you are a niece (I am) and you’ve looked up to this man all your life and are being told over and over it’s all lies and given reasons why, it’s difficult to swallow.
You are very uninformed both about the risk and about the impact on victims. Also, to address just one of your questions, Moses, “if” Moses murdered would be one thing. Moses murdering over and over again, and covering it up, would probably be quite another thing in God‘s eyes. “Not a sin, so great that he will NOT forgive it” is accompanied by many references to that being accompanied by repentance. you appear to be more concerned about kindness towards the perpetrator, rather than kindness toward the victims, so let me suggest that it is kinder to the perpetrators to separate them from temptation, just as alcoholics avoid alcohol, etc.
The covering up of this man’s crimes, as well as others crimes, is a whole different matter, and is a legal issue. I do believe there is also something in the Bible about following the law.
Don’t jump the gun Suzanne. I was simply stating the justification used for at least the last 100 years by the Christian faith – not just the workers.
Keep your holier than thou attitude away from me. I’m an adult male victim of SA myself (AT CONVENTION!) and know the feelings.
You really think a man not in a 60 minute meeting is “avoiding temptation”. Come on.
Just an FYI “Step Back” … my response was not even to you. It was to “Abuse”.
I think it’s some kind of a glitch in the app, as I see that Louise also says she has a comment that was a response to a post that is still awaiting mediation.
The overseers and older brothers who Covered it up have actually condoned it. Therefore highly responsible and should face the highest consequences. I question that these men are men of God. They can’t be and are not The Bible is clear about sexual immorality. They clearly ignored what God has said multiple times about this.
I disagree – the Bible is filled with messages of forgiveness and mercy. “No sin so great that He will forgive it”
To suggest that the men of the Bible where moral individuals is covering your eyes and ears.
Genuine question. If Moses murdered – would he be allowed to take part in meetings? These are highly complicated questions.
Banning someone from meetings does very little at reducing the risk in my view.
Do you not have any idea how a victim feels when they have to see/look at/listen to their aggressor?
Reply to: Abuse | July 27, 2023 at 12:47 pm
The overseers and workers need to leave the forgiveness and mercy to God and the victim and perform their duty of keeping predators out of meetings.
Thank you for sharing your story. It helps fill in some of the gaps of other things we’ve heard of or witnessed over the years.
I am Tavia’s uncle by marriage and live ~1-1/4 hr away from her. We have had a meeting in our home for ~32 yrs now. At about the same time Tavia’s husband called Ray I called Don and suggested that their meeting be moved to a home where Leslie would not be present. I had a couple of possibilities in mind which I shared with him. He said they (he and Ray) had considered some of those options, but he couldn’t do anything until he spoke with Ray – (but there is no hierarchy, and no worker has more power or authority than another). On June 28 we received an email from Don with a new Union Meeting list with only the month of July filled in. I have never before seen a Union Meeting list sent out before its completion. I feel like this was deceitful and the Union Meeting was hastily arranged so that any discussion of Leslie could be avoided.
The perps mean more to the oversight than unimaginable numbers of wounded, bleeding victims. Excusing his behavior as being caused by old age is disingenuous. The man has been a dangerous predator most of his life and those who covered, condoned and ignored his repulsive behaviour are complicit. FEAR of MAN holds abused people from reporting and perpetuates the problem, enabling the abuser to continue his nefarious behavior indefinitely.
A reoccurring funeral msg we hear is that ____ had Alzheimer’s or dementia their last years but every time a worker / friend visited him/her the wonderful spirit he/she had prior was still very evident. Use the same analogy on LW and then explain why he’s harmless now b/c he has dementia? Simply NO excuse for the enablers.
Thank you for sharing your story. May healing and peace be with you all now ❤️
Thank you for sharing this, Tavia. As a niece of this man whom I adored growing up, it has been hard having the feelings I’ve had, and like Tavia, have prayed that I would have a better spirit toward him. I wish I had spoken out as well. I’ve seen first-hand the verbal and mental abuse he has inflicted on my family and others. I’ve held my tongue on many occasions. I am so very sorry for his many victims. Finding out what the uncle I had placed on a pedestal was capable of was horrifying and heartbreaking. I am also horrified that he and so many others were not removed immediately after the first incident was reported.
The accusations against Leslie White mentioned in various letters are only the tip of the iceberg. Barry, Ray and other overseers have been aware of his wickedness for decades. Two examples that I don’t think have been mentioned anywhere recently are that Colorado elders had to ask him to stop visiting women while their husbands were at work, and a woman complained that he had sent her sexually explicit material over email.
The fact that none of this bothered Barry and other overseers is a testimony of their own seared conscience.
Had that been my wife Lesile would have gotten my best knuckle sandwich. Running to the workers or sometimes even the Elders is a waste of time. Men need to be men and protect their familes.
A friend to, as a husband and Dad I second your comment, God made us to be protectors. sadly there seems to be a shortage of men these days.
Love you and your courage to share Tavia. Sending hugs. Been struggling with similar feelings you describe and how to reconcile my lived experience and observations around him with family (and others’) expectations to maintain the pedestal status. And exceedingly heartbroken for those who have experienced his cruelty and inappropriateness.
If Moses lived today and were part of the fellowship I would hope he gets reported to the authorities, no Christian is above the law, not even the friends in this fellowship.
And he should be dealt with according to God’s Word, not mine, read 1 Corinthians 5, untill he whole heartedly repents, not when he is caught out.It is because people soft soaping sin that we see the mess in this fellowship today.We all come short forsure but and this is a big but, there should be consequences for our sins, not having consequences makes way for anarchy.
Read how strong Paul felt towards this church in Corinthians who just excepted this man, sin and all without consequences.
We err because we don’t know our Bible’s.
I commented on the post made by “Abuse”
but I see her or his post are still waiting moderation allthough it was posted.
Tavia, I’m so sorry for everything you have gone through. These workers have used God as manipulation to abuse many. I am disgusted by the actions of the ones in “power” ( they only have this kind of power if WE empower them!) to try to make sexual abuse legal and okay. Hugs to you
Tavia, I love you, believe you and support you in your advocacy.
How awful.
Tavia,
I’m sorry you’ve been through all of this. I’m shocked that he would have been the elder of a meeting after being sent home for that reason. I understand that he denied it/made excuses, but it’s basically insane!
I’m sorry you and everyone else has gone through this nonsense, and I hope it gets better soon.
Abuse, YOU are abused! You are abused by a “way” of thinking that totally excuses behavior that is not okay in “normal society”, and most definitely not okay to a Christian! You’re abused to think the way you exposed your feelings. Leslie White was the ” rock star” coming to convention when I was a kid. Leslie White could part the waters, and shine light through solid walls The most interesting thing about Leslie White, NOBODY every saw Leslie White, except when Leslie White was on stage. Why was that? Also, why is it you NEVER see Ray, Barry, or any other big time name BETWEEN MEETINGS? Please do not tell me they are, “preparing the Lords word for what to say”. I have been to a LOT of conventions, on opposite sides of the United States. One week on the West Coast, the next in the Midwest. Guess what? These big time tour workers say the same ” message “, word for word each time. Who’s going to know? Leslie White included. A sermon repeated. This is not ” fresh bread”. So, what was Leslie White doing between meetings, other than eat special prepared meals at the “workers table”? Why wasn’t Leslie White, Ray and Barry mixing with the people? You NEVER see them!!! I know now. But, I didn’t know then. They do NOT want to talk to YOU! My 90 year old aunt always told me, “you never stop learning”. When it comes to Leslie White, Ray, and Barry, rest assured, you can not trust them. And, PLEASE
stop making excuses for them, or their behavior! That part makes them look like Gods, and this religion look like a cult.
You never see much of any of these overseers really, do you? They are like dignitaries, after convention they are swiftly taken from the grounds and flown away, often thought about that and felt it was so they would have little interaction with the friends.
To Abuse. These sins are not human failings, in most cases it is a way of life, committing whenever an opportunity arises. It can be forgiven , but it needs to be repented of and STOPPED. Thankfully God knows who is genuinely repentant, and who is not.
I agree! Do we need these men in authority when they don’t have any understanding of normal every day life amongst families? There shouldn’t be any “overseers”, anywhere. We don’t need to get permission from anyone about anything, if we are truly reading the scripture (to actually know the heart of God), and praying without ceasing (which means keeping God in our thoughts at all times so that when a decision needs to be made, He’s there to help us), we won’t be doing things we shouldn’t. If you think you need to ask a worker about something…you already know it’s not okay, your just trying to justify your desire to sin!!
If this CSA/SA and worker Abuse towards each other was just a case of “sin” (which it partially is, because it’s an abomination to God), they could repent (which means: admitting your sin, admitting it was wrong, and apologizing to those who you sinned against, and then turning from your sin to never go “there” again while handing your heart and life back over to God on a daily/hourly/minute-by-minute basis, so he CAN keep you). Yes, we can forgive, but we were also given common sense to know that that doesn’t mean you are free to have fellowship with God’s people, any more than putting a housetrained fox into a henhouse as a guard for the night!
God is well able to work in HONEST hearts wherever they are. If people who aren’t targets of the predators want to choose to go visit them, there’s no reason they can’t. Just keep the predator/abuser away. Abusive sisterworkers/brotherworkers or saints, it doesn’t matter. They have NO place in fellowship. The workers are to bring the Spirit of Peace, and how can they do that when they are seeking Satan’s ways on a daily basis? Treating each other with ugliness..is that showing “love one to another” so the world will know they are HIS? Right now, I can sadly say, the majority in the ministry around the world are NOT following Jesus, nor seeking God’s approval.
@For Christ. I am sorry you feel this way. I have been in the female workers quarters at convention in the daytime and I have seen many if them who are on the speaking list either in prayer or reading. It does take a lot of prep time to to speak 20 minutes, much less and hour. I have also heard a repeated message at convention and yet it doesn’t mean that it is not relevant. 45 minutes is a long time to speak. Try coming up with 20 minutes of swharing from the bible and then double that time. My sister was a worker and we absolutely knew that time at convention was not a time to visit her as she was either working at her home convention or prepping to speak at her visiting convention.
I am referencing the big time tour workers. They DO say the same ”message”, word for word, at various conventions. Not only have I witnessed this at convention, other people that I have talked to have as well. Speaking for an hour, and then repeating the same thing again, does not take preparation. I have even thanked a tour worker, as he left the dining hall, for the refresher on his hour sermon the week before at a convention 2300 miles away.
Diane, I said, “These big time tour workers say the same ” message “, word for word each time. Who’s going to know? Leslie White included. A sermon repeated. This is not ” fresh bread”. So, what was Leslie White doing between meetings, other than eat special prepared meals at the “workers table”? Why wasn’t Leslie White, Ray and Barry mixing with the people?”. Diane, you said, ” I have also heard a repeated message at convention”. Diane, with all due respect, can you answer my question, “why is it you NEVER see Ray, Barry, or any other big time name BETWEEN MEETINGS? Please do not tell me they are, “preparing the Lords word for what to say”.
Abused sez…..
“Banning someone from meetings does very little at reducing the risk in my view”.
Had the overseers done their jobs he should be behind bars. He should have been excommunicated years ago. No excuses. People have been excommunicated or asked not to take part in meetings over much less. And as far as I’m concerned Ray & Barry should be excommunicated as well for allowing the predator to roam free.
Leslie has all the characteristics as a narcissist. Everything revolves around him and he has to control everything. No boundaries. These people are so so so hard to be around because while they can be charismatic and the center of the attention and often make things fun…they have a way of dominating everything and every person in every situation. And he becomes an elder which only makes their ego worse and their own sense of self even greater. I’m so sorry for anyone in his shadow. There’s little you can do with people like this other than move away or out of their existence.
100% agree here. He displays every tendency of a true narcissistic personality disorder. This does not excuse a single one of his heinous actions, but does explain why he has clearly never been remorseful and continues to be a menace everywhere he goes.
Tavia, I’m so sorry for all you went through because of Leslie. Leslie was a good friend to my father-in-law, and everyone hated it when Leslie would come, because he was SOOO arrogant. All he did was talk about himself and how great he was the whole time he was there. I had no respect for him then, and certainly am struggling with hatred towards him after all he’s done. I agree with your final summary. Predators of any type don’t need to be in our fellowship. God is well able to work in an HONEST heart, no matter where they are. They can work out their own salvation in fear and trembling, outside the camp!