On July 11, 2023, WINGS posted a letter written by a group of concerned friends. At that time it was signed by 95 friends, and it was open for further signatures to be added.
See https://wingsfortruth.info/2023/07/11/friends-letter-to-overseers-and-church/
It has now been finalised and has more than 800 signatures. Some only supported the first part of the letter.
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Idea…if your elder is on this list go to another meeting. If you are there elder tell them they are welcome to come but no emblems or taking part. It’s time to stand up for our overseers and workers. Most of the names on here are liberal anyway.
What does “liberal” have to do with this debacle for our fellowship? Hopefully regardless of politics we can all agree that abuse of any kind shouldn’t be tolerated among us, and that we need leadership and methods that can address and prevent it effectively.
This suggestion from “Stand” while perhaps well-intentioned just seems to encourage more dissent and division, and abuse of power, and doesn’t feel like a Spirit-led or productive way forward.
It is hard to know what to do. I didn’t sign the letter, although I agree with the sentiments in the first part, because I can’t afford professionally or personally to have my name publicly associated with these problems. (I don’t agree with the second part of the letter, because adding MORE structure doesn’t seem like a good answer.) On the other hand, I haven’t yet found any other practical way to help address these problems; I continue to pray for guidance for all of us, and also to attend fellowship meetings, while waiting for change to happen. Not very satisfactory or pro-active, but also perhaps not an uncommon circumstance among our friends these days.
My hope is that I’m part of a silent majority who agree with most of the ideas in this letter, and in other excellent letters posted here from Graham Thompson, Trevor Larsen, and many others.
My fear is that many of us don’t feel able to tackle these challenges head-on, but if we don’t see meaningful improvements in the fellowship, we will just … quietly withdraw, in some cases even without being fully aware of it. We might not step away entirely, but we’ll be less present in meetings, we’ll offer less support for the work, we won’t invite new people to meetings, and we’ll just be less invested in our fellowship, all of which feels like a terrible shame and waste, and not at all the outcome most of us would want.
Observer – you say you didn’t sign the letter because it might be a risk for you professionally. Yet, your entire ‘faith’ is about emulating Jesus. May I remind you that Jesus sacrificed himself – was tortured and crucified – for his people. Millions of Christians have sacrificed themselves for their faith – they are called martyrs. And you cannot risk your name being on an obscure website calling for an end to pedophilia? Your position is exactly the reason that “The Truth’ has had these cancers progress to such a level that it now has the highest rate of Child Sexual Assault of any religious group in the world. We are judged not only on what we do, but also on what we fail to do. You then proceed to say that as a member of a silent majority you will become less active in “The Truth’ by being less enthusiastic about it. The Overseers are quaking in their boots at such a threat. 🙂 If you truly want to see an end to this cancer, stop going to meeting, stop giving money, and stop providing free AirBnB to the ‘workers’. As it stands right now, you are an enabler of the cancer.
Edit to observer. Didn’t sign for some of the same reasons.
Not letting people partake of the emblems because they want to root out corruption? That is condemnation and the bible makes it clear that such condemnation is for God only. Plenty of people (rapists, podophiles, liars, sociopaths, etc.) have taken the emblems in an unworthy manner over the decades and it has no effect on my (or your) salvation. Philippians 2:12 applies.
There’s nothing “liberal” about wanting accountability for wickedness within the fellowship. No one is condemning these three overseers who have enabled wickedness for decades, they just want them to step down as they’ve proven they have been acting in a self-serving manner for so long. They can still have hope of salvation, but they are unfit for the ministry. Some of the folks who have signed may be politically left, and I know many names on the list who are politically right. It’s clearly a spiritual issue and not a political one.
How about you make your choice, everyone else makes theirs, and we see who ends up on the right side of history? I want no part of a home group that endorses child sexual abuse and sexual assault but hey, each to our own choices. I know where I stand.
A fellowship full of abuse , lies and wickedness . Why in the world stand for a fellowship obviously built on sand. No man can take my joy and faith in my Savior! I know many on the list they are wonderful people who don’t deserve to be criticized.
The foundation of the 2×2 ministry and New Testament fellowship are build on the ROCK foundation of Christ, established/started by God the Father and Holy Spirit. There are men and women in the ministry, some elders, and the friends are standing on SAND foundation and NOT on the ROCK/Christ foundation.
These men and women who are standing and building on Sand foundation will face the Judge Christ on the judgment day for their evilness and wrong doings against others in this life. They will NOT get away freely. They will be beaten to death, and sent in outer darkness forever. God and Christ are Watching and recording all these things are happening on the earth. God is cleansing, purifying the ministry and the church/the Bride of Christ constantly.
Don’t throw the baby out with the Bath water! God and Christ New Testament 2×2 ministry and fellowship are perfect as it is but many people are NOT practicing what they preach and believe.
What about its time to stand up for what is true and right? What about standing up for the many children whose life has been forever changed because they were abused by someone in this fellowship? What about standing up for those who were pushed out of truth because they dared to make a stand for those little ones and others? What about standing up for those who have been bullied and silenced because they dared stand for others, or themselves? What about standing up for Christ, surely he would have stood up for the these little ones. he would have stood when others sat. We read of this over and over in his life as he walked on this earth. Maybe you should think again about what and whom you are standing up for.
So, @Stand for the fellowship, let me get this straight. Your response to the 800+ professing souls who have courageously signed their names supporting the removal of those 3 overseers who have overseen years, even decades, of CSA and other abuse, coverups, shifting known perpetrators & lied about it, abuse of power, intimidation of the faithful (including implied threat of losing your salvation), and supporting badly needed reform in the church, is to…wait for it…intimidate them, take away the emblems, take away their part in meeting? Do I have that right? In other words do more of what has been done for decades?
I think when all is said and done I would not want to be found on the wrong side of this scourge, either with the law or with God. I hope the list grows to 8,000. God bless those that stand for truth.
We do need to stand up for our workers and overseers. But those workers and overseers that are wolves or who have let the wolves remain should have no part of this fellowship.
I also do not agree with the second part of this letter as I feel the motive is highly questionable. Weaponizing the CSA/SA issue in order to bring changes in doctrine and other issues is despicable.
This needs to be 100% about standing up alongside the victims and purging to every extent possible the predators and those gatekeepers that have allowed them to remain.
@ stand for fellowship, I guess if you believe conservatives are good with sexual abuse both in children and adults alike?? Guess what, you’re WRONG!!!!!! NOONE SHOULD BE OK WITH SEXUAL ABUSE! this is NOT a political battle. This is good vs evil. Your integrity speaks volumes!
You don’t even have the bravery or fortitude to put your own name on your post!
Generally, the person who does the name calling in an argument is probably losing the argument. You’re standing against those who are against pedophilia…?
Most of these names are “liberal”? I’m sorry that your world is completely upside down right now by all of this and that you resort to weaponizing language. I really am. But look what you’re standing for…
Just think, these 800+ names are just the ones that had the stones to write their name. I can’t write mine. I’m sure there are 100s more who can’t write theirs. I applaud those who have signed it because they know how they’ll be treated for it. This happened years ago in Canada and over half of the meetings in Canada were taken out of homes for not “obeying” the workers.
Workers no longer have power. When you see this many people are against the system, good luck enforcing dress codes and rules and regulations. As soon as a worker tells my family or children what to wear or what to do, they are not welcome in my home.
We’re in a cult. It’s always been a cult. If you can’t see it and if this offends you then look into why it offends you. Nobody would know better than by someone who has been born into it and has been extremely faithful and now sees how extremely dangerous it is.
Can’t wait for Wednesday bible study after two meetings today! Yippee!!
You are not standing for fellowship, you are standing for abuse and coverup against the God of heaven. It’s because of people like you that abuse is rampant in this ministry and fellowship, not impressed.
Join our 3,000+ voices of Friends and Workers…https://connected-and-concerned-friends.mn.co/share/CTu88wDyuFwaahVT?utm_source=manual
Curious as to your personal experience with CSA?
I’m super liberal and I find this letter incredibly cringe. A council of elders???! What are we, a fantasy movie?
Bad idea.
I am an elder…I am far far from liberal. Painting with a broad brush is very dangerous.
Your username is a problem in itself…
I stand for my relationship with our Father and his son Jesus.
I stand for the Bible.
I stand for people that don’t have a voice.
I stand for people that haven’t been able to speak.
I stand for victims that have been shamed by arrogance and self-rightiousness like you are showing.
I stand to be soft-hearted to ALL people.
I stand for honesty.
I stand for our meetings that feed our hearts and souls.
I stand for my kids, so they can have a relationship with our Father and not be doing things just to please a group of men that are not accountable to anyone.
I stand for Grace and Love.
If you want your words to have weight you should probably put your actual name out there. The act of Communion is something we have been ordered to do from Jesus and is a blessing for us to partake of.
I hope you can start to think more deeply about the pain and injury that your words can inflict on people that are victims.
Mike Groseth
Any workers on that list? I see Michael Summers – but is he still in the work?
Stand for the fellowship — you say …Jf you are there elder tell them they are welcome to come but no emblems or taking part. It’s time to stand up for our overseers and workers”. Stand, you may want to research and find out what the emblems represent and why they are taken. The emblems represent Christ and why He died for us. It is not about the workers.
@Stand For The Fellowship, please try not to worry about that all happening. My overseer knows I signed the letter. As recently as yesterday, he thanked me for speaking up. And he continues to appreciate the prayer on his behalf. Forward-thinking overseers don’t want this dumpster fire to continue forever, and they appreciate those who want to be part of the solution. Working together. Moving forward.
Love ya and your stand whoever you is. And yes I’m still in the work. Washington staff.
H32 – wondering why your wonderful overseer did not add his John Hancock to the letter if he thinks it is such a great idea? Advocates For The Truth sent a letter to every single overseer on June 2, 2023 and asked for their resignation no later than June 8, 2023 due to their CSA activity or cover up. Not a single one did, including yours. Thus, why does anyone think Ray, Barry, or Dale will give it up?
Readers should remember that of the original 95 “signatures”, it was exposed that multiple people had ZERO knowledge of this letter and were shocked to see their names on the list. One has to wonder how many of the 800 names are legitimate, or whether a CCF insurrectionist has got their hands on a few address lists. You might want to search for your own name and ask others whether they have actually signed this before making any conclusions.
Questionable – you suggest that many of the signatories on the letter are fake. Have you not considered it possible that 800 people out of 100-200k ‘Truthers’ in the world might not be pleased with finding out that their ‘The Way is Perfect’ outfit has the highest rate of child sexual assault of any religious group in the world? ‘The Truth’ already has been on prime-time TV in Australia for its child sexual assault record. Imagine what is going to happen if a US TV station or Netflix picks this up – secretive cult involved in child sexual abuse human trafficking pretending to be a Christian fellowship. ‘Truthers’ should be trying to avoid that sort of attention at all costs, by ridding themselves of all their corruption and criminal activities as soon as possible.
This is outrageous . The highest in the world? Where do you get that? The 500+ are friends, as well as workers. Do all of the religions in the world publish the sexual abuse by all of its members? No! You are comparing apples to oranges. If you can come up with a number of hoe many workers have been accused, then we can talk about comparing to other religions. otherwise, I can’t take thus seriously.
The BBC is currently investigating the truth.
We know and deeply care for some convention grounds owners and wonder are they prepared for press and outside investigations?
Also, they can be held liable for lawsuits if abuse occurs on their property.
Are these issues being discussed?
While it’s hard to have an accurate number of abusers or members, it is clear that child sexual abuse is exponentially higher in the truth than any other religion.
Unnatural and unscriptural sacrifice has and will continue result in immoral behavior.
Bad theology hurts people- please remember Peter and Judas were married.
Workers and overseers used to marry and now we realize many disingenuously portray themselves living celibate and moral lives.
Stop the madness.
To stop the madness.
It is not exponentially higher. This is total fabrication. Hope many catholic parishioners abuse children? Why are the 500+ all being attributed to workers?
One abuser is to many, but there is no way you can definitely say it is more when you are comparing apples to oranges!
Plus, people who are married abuse children!!!
Sorry, Typo. I meant to say, “hoe many catholic parishioners abuse children? “
Oh help us! “How many”…
TRT – you seem to doubt that ‘The Truth’ has the highest rate of CSA in the world. Well, you can easily do the calculations yourself. Here is a very shorthand method: Take all the convictions of male Workers for CSA, divide by the total number of male Workers. Let’s just use USA/CDN/AUS/NZ numbers to make it even easier. You will notice that the rate in double digits. Then compare to the published rate for RCC priests. Yes, ‘The Truth’ has a CSA conviction rate that is about 5 times higher than the RCC. And those are just the convictions, before the Bruer info was leaked. So it’s not hard to extrapolate that the rate is 20 times higher than the RCC. The truth hurts, doesn’t it.
TRT- There are 1.3 Billion Catholics and estimated 216,000 reports of abuse.
There’s estimated to be 300,000-370,000 professing people with 500 reported perpetrators.
Number of professing people since the 80’s are estimated to have declined by half.
Hope that helps!
Preserving the Truth book by Kropp-Ehrig sheds light on the foundation and traditions of the truth, which reveals how a history of secrecy and duplicity may have exacerbated this problem.
Babes, I work in insurance. I insure churches. We ain’t got nothing on most churches
@questionable
Many of the signatures are fake? Citation please. I’d like to know who’s name is on the list that didn’t sign it. Thanks.
It’s important to remember that the Catholic Church has far more members than the truth. Comparing the abuse of the Catholic Church to the abuses of the truth is like comparing the ocean to one grain of sand.
More importantly, we must remember that the overseers have spent decades, ignoring and hiding the abuses.
It does not require training to know that if a child sexual abuser is moved to another area, the likelihood of other children being sexually abused in the new area is very high.
Lastly, what is worse than hate? Indifference is. Is God dismantling the truth due to decades of indifference?
To Abuse.
You are missing the point. How many catholic members abuse children? Until I see a breakdown of ministry vs. Laity abuse. I do not believe that it is exponentially higher amongst those who go to meeting.
If someone would do a comparison of only the workers and catholic priests, I might be convinced, but when you say this 500+ means it is exponentially higher than any other religion, it looks like you are just trying to be misleading because that is not all workers. The vast majority isn’t workers. And many of the accused workers are dead.
@TRT
In the U.S the highest percentage of Priest abuse was 4% from 1950-2002. In today’s Universal Church it seems to be less than 1%. There have been many changes made to those admitted to Catholic Seminary. You would have to take the percentage of brother workers and compare it to be the most “fair” comparison. Also there are many positions that seem to have a rate which is much higher such as Rabbis and especially school teachers.
@TRT
There is likely 2,000 – 2,500 workers wordwide. 33% of that being brothers makes brother workers around 650-800 likely Brothers. If there are only 50(likely much more) brother workers who tend to abuse during their time in this ministry then you’d be at 1/16 which is much higher than the highest rate of Catholic priest abuse (1/25 aka 4%). Abuse in this ministry likely was more if not similar around the time of 1950-2002. It’s very safe to assume abuse is much more common in this ministry.
Two people’s names were added erroneously via an honest misunderstanding that originated with me. It had nothing to do with CCF
Please cite the source of your information. Then we’ll talk. “It was exposed”…by whom/what. Do you really truly think the moderators of CCF would risk forging signatures? Really? I know you may not wish to believer there are that many friends that would sign such a letter, but there really are that many and probably more that sympathize with that letter, but didn’t feel comfortable signing it.
Millions of dollars are spent building and maintaining convention grounds for 2-4 days of use per year.
Why is this done? This isn’t biblical.
Paul collected money to help individuals not to build rarely used convention grounds.
Lastly, convention grounds are church buildings yet more costly. We must be honest and stop saying we ‘meet in homes’ when millions are being spent on buildings.
I realize this is a bit off the original topic, but reading @Convention grounds post, I just had to respond. Full disclosure, I am an ‘ex’, but was born and raised in ‘the way’, and have extensive family still in, including workers. One of the cliches’ I remember most from childhood when referring to any church building was “God dwelleth not in temples made with hands”, one of the most ‘taken-out-of-context’ phrases of my childhood.
A few years ago my brother was telling of donating materials for new ancillary buildings that were being constructed on long-standing convention grounds. Of course I had to ask: Wait, are you saying these buildings aren’t being built with hands? His answer: “Well, the workers don’t preach in these buildings”. Draw your own inferences for the poor moms who were in the ‘baby quarters’, or the poor older folks who were resting in the ‘workers quarters’ while the workers were preaching. God clearly was not dwelling there. Oh boy.
How many times do times do Catholic priests stay in peoples homes overnight?
Well, we read in Acts 2-5 at the Pentecostal feast about 8000 people became followers of Christ from 17 nations and the Christians Jews in Jerusalem sold their possession, property and money so, these newly converts could stay a few weeks longer to learn more about Jesus and the apostles doctrines.
One soul is saved at convention is worth more than all of the gold, diamond, and money in all the world. ALL of the money in this world one day will all burn up in smoke! What shall it profit if a man has all of the money in the world and loose his own soul? So, thousands and millions of dollars spent on conventions it is worth it? Yes, it worth every penny! My brother and I professed at convention 40 years ago.
Conventions were directly modeled after the Faith Mission’s organization’s conventions.
William Irvine, the truth’s founder, began ministering through the Faith Mission. The faith mission at that time had similar dress, as well as vocabulary, such as professing and taking part.
More information about the first convention can be found in the Preserving the Truth by Cherie Kropp-Ehrig. Her book contains many primary sources as well as photographs.
My husband and I signed it. I also painstakingly looked at the list and recognized many names of folks we know and love, including some relatives. There were plenty willing signatures… didn’t need to venture out to the highways and byways to get more.
Thank you, I agree. Signed it and glad I did.
Does the Administrator and moderators KNOW how many ex-2x2s and how many professing friends are posting on this list of CF? Thanks.
The letter was created by a group of friends, not by WINGS. We have no details about the people who signe dtheir names.
Sorry, Wingsfortruth2….. That question was meant for the Administrator and moderators group of friends… I know they read here… With many exes on the list they can persuade, influence and guide the group to a different path, take down the ministry and fellowship using CSA as stepping stones.
I wonder if the friends on that list are aware of this? that there are many exes on the list.
@NB … so what is your point?
It sounds like you think the “exes” on the CC&F list have a different goal and desire to stop the atrocities than the “friends”. Most people on that list (regardless of professing status) are far more aware of intentions and heartfelt desires to protect the most vulnerable than you are.
You say there are 800+ signatures on this grass-roots membership campaign to oust the current leadership and create a new organized religion structure to govern itself. If the Friends and Workers Fellowship has 100,000 members worldwide, 800 would be only 0.8 of one percent, that’s a very small fringe group of the total membership. And counting the actual names on this current list there seems to be only 731 signature names listed.
If there are 100K friends worldwide, I wonder how many would have signed had they been aware of it? I’m quite sure it would be a whole lot more.
Interesting wording you use, “new organized religion structure”…. That’s a strawman if I’ve ever seen one. I wouldn’t have signed it if it was trying to turn our fellowship into something else rather than cleansing the fellowship. There was a suggestion I really don’t agree with, but that was just a suggestion and not a demand.
I signed it because DS, RH, and BB have been instrumental in numerous cover-ups which have allowed predators to operate with ease among the friends. Despite the fact that many of their misdeeds are public knowledge, these 3 men are full of pride and unwilling to acknowledge their mistakes. Without any sort of remorse at all, I don’t see how they can be God’s true ministers. These 3 workers remind me of Eli in 1 Sam 1-4.
mesnuc, I agree with you that the terrible situation within the ministry today is very similar to Eli in 1 Sam 1-4. In that situation Eli and his sons were a part of God’s true chosen ministry at the time, and they had become unbelievably corrupt, wicked, and evil, But that situation was not solved by a campaign of God’s people demanding that Eli step down or else, and suggesting that possibly God’s ministry should be replaced with some other structure. As for saying that this suggestion to change the ministry structure is a strawman; how can that be a strawman when it is actually included in this demand letter?
Not very convincing,
There was a campaign of God’s people who confronted Eli. There was also an unnamed Godly man and a vision of Samuel foretelling the punishment. God used people to warn Eli, but Eli choose to ignore all of those warnings. In the 1 Samuel 4, God had no choice but to take care of it himself because Eli didn’t listen to the people he sent. Reading the bible, the vast majority of the lessons in the bible are people actively doing things on behalf of the lord. The scriptures make it clear that God uses people to do his work. He didn’t tell Moses to pray for an ark, he instructed Moses to build the ark. Maybe you have a conviction that you are not supposed to do anything and these problems will be taken care of. If that’s your conviction, then obviously that’s what you’re supposed to do. However, it is a very dangerous thing to make the assumption that we all should have the same conviction as you.
The change in structure explained in the letter was a suggestion, not a demand. Like I explained earlier, I really don’t agree with the suggestion in the letter but since it was a suggestion and not a demand, I was happy to sign it. There is a demand for change but no specific demands were made which is why I called your comment a strawman. My apologies if that’s not what you were referring to.
I do think there should be change. We are all imperfect humans here and when 1 human is elevated to a position of great power such as our overseers, the ability to control outcomes is a great temptation. David had a similar failing with Bathsheba. He took his focus off the goal (battle) and focused on what his earthly desire was (Bathsheba) and failed. He then used his power and influence to manipulate outcomes in order to get away with it. In doing so he caused an innocent man (Uriah) to be killed. How many times have we seen overseers and senior workers harm innocent people by using their power and influence to manipulate outcomes? God sent Nathan to confront David and fortunately David listened to the message and repented. One again, God used someone to send a message. Our current structure of hierarchy is not 100% rooted in scripture and has resulted in too much temptation for some men placed in the overseer role which has also resulted in an awful lot of harm. I don’t have the right answer as to what should be done, but change is needed. There is no requirement to have the 100% answer before pointing out that something is wrong. I have faith in God that the needed change will be revealed via humility and prayer. Right now we are seeing humility from some workers and overseers, but I’m seeing a lot of pride from some others. The ministry and friends to not have unity of spirit right now which is saddening. At this point, all I can do is pray that I know God and his spirit better so that I can truly recognize his spirit in others as well as be spirit led myself. I’ve been praying very earnestly these past few months. I did agonize over signing this letter, but I feel it was my place to sign it.
Not me. It was awkward and had loud calls to action and no clear paths to reach actionable items. It was written with emotion, not logic and facts
This list of signatures is dubious. Some have never personally signed but yet their name somehow appeared there. There have been multiple cases of people requesting their names to be removed as they had never signed. In addition there are many signatures from those who have left and no longer go to meetings.
I would like to see a real number.
Elijah S, Two people’s names were added erroneously via an honest misunderstanding that originated with me. It had nothing to do with CCF. I left the same comment on this page yesterday afternoon, but you may have missed it.
Also concerned | July 24, 2023 at 12:51 pm
@NB … so what is your point?
It sounds like you think the “exes” on the CC&F list have a different goal and desire to stop the atrocities than the “friends”. Most people on that list (regardless of professing status) are far more aware of intentions and heartfelt desires to protect the most vulnerable than you are.
To Also concern…
Off course many exes have a different goal, they want to see this fellowship to be gone forever so, don’t fall for their traps and snares. They are there to poison your minds with half-truth information about the workers teachings, history and so on. They are there to steal your crown of life so, be very careful.
25 years ago, I warned and tried to educate the workers/Ministry, the friends with my website, and message board how dangerous CSA, the victims need professional help because the emotional, mental, and physical traumatic stress experiences last for a long, long time. I wish they had taken it seriously, then we wouldn’t have this BIG problem today.
Here are some wisdom….
7/15/23
I endorse 100% full investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen by God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy.
So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old.
The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2. The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated.
God did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger.
It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God!. Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget.
JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age.
The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefully not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’.
Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded.
The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning their hearts to see the need for laborers and then gently calling till they no longer say, NO!
Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made.
When we yielded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes.
Mannor
@ Wisdom to pay attention to –
“Here are some more wisdom”
The casting of stones analogy doesn’t work here. Casting stones was to literally stone someone to death by casting stones at their head til they died. We aren’t doing that. We aren’t casting stones. We are saying “don’t let pedophiles and abuse happen in our church. Don’t cover up abuse for your benefit”. That’s not casting stones. It’s a request.
“Don’t doubt God’s way because of what takes place on the inside of his fold”….there is no “way”. Jesus said he is the way. He is the truth and he is the life. There is no way other than Jesus. You think Jesus would want this abuse happening in his fold?
I’m seeing a lot of justification these days lately that “God never said the ministry would be PERFECT”…”God never said there wouldn’t be multiple wolves amongst the sheep…” “God never said xyz…” God didn’t say a lot. That doesn’t mean it has to be so. God never said there wouldn’t be school shootings either, so leave those alone? God never said you wouldn’t get punched in the mouth next Tuesday…so that makes it so? That makes it okay?
“Nobody asked God”? How do you know this isn’t Gods work taking place right now with asking the overseers to be taken down? I think God removed leaders before. Herod tried to kill himself and ended up dying a painful death.
Not up to us to remove wheat from the tares. God “never” said we couldn’t try…
Wisdom to Pay attention: Our reply is: You wish!
As those who Preach as Jesus sent the 12:
Do Luke 24:53, Acts 3:1, and Acts 5:42?.
YES, one could quote this for you, but only you can read God’s word as written.
THIS will open your eyes and if you are honest you will be ‘driven’ to READ God’s word as written! and not WHAT someone else wants you to Know.
Then read the 12 apostles Doctrine.
Acts 2:42-46 Yes, you read. THIS does NOT sound like your ‘last paragraph. Why?
Acts 2:14 – :36 Is this what you hear in Gospel Meetings before yielded to God and entered into a covenant with God.
Acts 2:42-46 and if two references are required
Acts 4:31 – :37
Is this the exact ‘Picture’ of the Church which Jesus established as you worship in the “Temple” Daily
Acts 6:1-: 4 as a result was this a problem in the Church God established?
As the “workers” moved on to what?
Acts 5:42 ???
or/and Luke 24:53???
as they did after they watched Jesus Christ the “RISEN” ascend into Heaven
OR is what God tells the workers ‘gently’ until they no LONGER say NO!:, NOW “supersede” God’s Holy Word?
Yes, this IS brutal: but when do you want to understand? Now, when you can still learn or Later; when it is too late.
I guess I assumed everyone would agree (not a safe assumption though)… EVEN IF those 3 aren’t at fault, they were in charge when bad things happened and they had opportunities to enact policies to protect the workers from making bad decisions, and they didn’t.
We all have to be held accountable… I’m accountable to my wife, my kids, my employer, my neighbors, my meeting. Elders are held accountable in their place, and can lose their place. Workers can lose their place. And overseers, which we’ve seen recently. But the overseers of the overseers? Why are they any different? There doesn’t seem to be a mechanism for them to lose their place. They are accountable to the church. And we’re all accountable to God.
In Mt. 18 it says if our brother doesn’t hear us, to bring our concerns to the church. There’s no real mechanism to do that in the church, and we haven’t done that very well at all. I saw the petition as an attempt to do that.
If this happened in any other organization or church, the top leadership would’ve been fired by their board. It’s true that many of us would’ve probably mistakes, it’s hard stuff… but we should still be held accountable.
And it’s not only about accountability… if there’s a division in the church and changing the leadership would help to restore trust, then who wouldn’t humbly resign to help the souls of those who are having a difficult time trusting the ministry? Jesus took the blame even though he wasn’t at fault. Our overseer has acknowledged that trust has been broken, and he wants to restore the trust… trust isn’t automatic. Someone needs to take the blame even if they did their best. For the love of the kingdom. I honestly think it would be best for the kingdom and I’m really surprised they haven’t voluntarily done that already.
I’m really sorry for how that might’ve come across. I can see how it might’ve been interpreted. Our overseer told a group of us that in the OT there were good kings and bad kings over God’s people, but that God is always faithful to the individual. I’m glad for the kingdom, and I’m glad for the one who is on the throne. These men aren’t on the throne, they’re just servants… or rather, servants of servants. The lowest and humblest of places, it would seem. They can be a help to us, and we can be a help to them. And we all need to keep the kingdom in mind.
Many people are having huge trust issues right now… everyone has their varied experiences. I need to look out for them… people that God wants in the kingdom, and who are struggling right now. My intent in signing this wasn’t to create division. I want unity and love above opinions.
Convention goers, I professed at a convention almost years ago now. I did not know what that meant. All I remember is I was scared NOT to profess. Everyone in the way did. Now I realize professing was to the religion. Every single person in the religion professed since William Irvine started the religion. They all professed through William Irvine, or one of his ministers (workers). William Irvine did not profess, though. Because William Irvine was the beginning of the religion. This was only one of the traditions of the religion that William Irvine started that are still followed today.
To for Christ,
If you believe that you professed to William Irvine and to the workers at convention then your faith is built on the sand foundation.
You made your choice to serve God and Christ NOT the workers, they are just like sign posts along the highway, which are pointing people to follow Jesus New Testament teachings.
Worship God and Christ NOT the workers, they are only the messengers. Put your Faith and salvation in God and Christ, who died for our sins NOT the workers.
I appreciate what John the Baptist taught his own followers when he saw Jesus he said “Christ must INCREASE and I must Decrease.” That should be the main goal for every true servants of God. Christ must be the main focus and our attention the servants stay in the back ground.
I have a great respect for the workers who are called and chosen by God and Christ for the ministry to uphold Jesus New Testament teachings for all generations to the time of His Son returns.
May the Lord God guides you in all things and let your eyes focus on Christ and God to the end of your journey on earth.
Workers are not “JUST” pointing toward Jesus. Workers have abused other workers and abused children. Don’t mitigate the damage done by using the word “just”. What a bunch of “hogwash”. Profess to Christ? Try saying that to the WORKERS. You MUST go to meeting to profess to Christ. Do you not see the circular “logic” in this faith?
You don’t just profess to Christ. You profess to this church. You don’t just get baptized. You get baptized in this church. Not true? Then ask the people who have been baptized by other ministers in other churches. They were told they need to be baptized BY this church. The perfect way.
I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not this simple. It would be great to profess to Christ only. But try doing that and see what it looks like. This church is all about washing the disciples feet and lip service. It’s not about action. It’s not about doing what Jesus said and did. It’s about JUST going to meetings. Period. You can be the biggest sinner on the planet. You could be a former murderer, financial corrupter, current adulterer or CURRENT PEDOPHILE. But, by golly, as long as you get that Sunday morning meeting, gospel meeting and Wednesday bible study in, you’re “true blue”. Doesn’t matter the life you live on the outside of meeting. As long as you get. To. Meeting. You’re. Saved. That’s why these precious workers have to let these precious pedophiles in to our church because meetings are the one true salvation. It’s just a chance your child is a target for these pedophiles. But, wouldn’t that be worth it to have your child molested so that someone else could get to heaven? If so, I’m going to Hell, happily.
Ask your local worker, or your local China overseer about these words. Then YouTube what “psychopaths” do and say and be appalled at the similarities. See you on Wednesday.
Thank you, For Christ. I “made my choice” because I wanted to be “in” not “out”. I was not “born again” until several decades later. Being “born again” was wondrous. It still is. My heart breaks for all the people deluded by this group who believe it’s “The Truth”. Trusting the Workers to understand the Bible is like taking your car to an unqualified mechanic.
Our study this week seems fitting.
Psalms 2:1-4
Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
“Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
Psalms 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
The post should have read, “Convention goers, I professed at a convention almost FIFTY years ago now. I did not know what that meant. All….”. p.s. I no longer profess to a religion and I no longer have the bondage of a religion, and the traditions that come from it. I now follow the simple path that Christ Jesus talks about. Jesus said: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).
To for Christ,
Thanks, for your clarification on your current status. Well, I wish you the best.
For over 45 years, I did a lot of praying, research, studying on the 2×2 group origin/history and those like the 2×2 for 1800 years.
I was raised as an ancestors worship, RCC, Buddhist, a Pentecost believer before I met the workers. I am very satisfy with the 2×2, let God clean up CSA , and other problems within the ministry and the church just like Jesus cleansed the 7 churches in the book of Revelation. This way it will be safe for the next generation of 2×2 to the time of Jesus returns, which is very soon.
I don’t want to go back to my former religions, the RCC and 50,000 plus denominations. Don’t want to go back to frying pan.
Above, I’ve seen some comments stating “do you know there are ‘outsiders’ who signed this list?” … With all due respect, that comment made my skin crawl. It’s utterly bigoted and shallow, I’m sorry. Some people were shoved outside our fellowship because of abuse and atrocity. You better believe any victim “outside” has every right to sign a letter like this. Moreover, I happen to personally know a few of the ‘outsiders’ who signed it. They are upstanding, God-fearing believers who left because they became aware of the corruption addressed in the letter. Some of them were exposed to predators in their youth, without their consent. Again, do they not have the right to sign that letter for that reason alone? They spent decades among us and those decades count for something, in my opinion. Moreover, some are “outside” but their children and relatives might not be; so they sign in support of their relatives. I’m “inside” the fellowship and I have no qualms whatsoever having my name alongside their names. I am quite well and done with disdain and hardheartedness towards those “outside” because I am not “better” than them. If you want to be mad at someone for tearing down our fellowship… be mad at the deviant abusers who used our flock as their personal feeding ground. THEY are the ones tearing it down. And some “outsiders” have more sense and compassion than we do!
Thanks Abigail I appreciate you standing up for us, the “outsiders”, I agree whole heartedly with what you said, it was level headed, maturely and truthly said!
Well stated, @Abigail. My feelings exactly. And many others were shoved out for daring to question the workers or continuing to befriend others who had been ‘removed’. The history of this tactic is readily available and well documented. And remember, one overseer preached that ‘questioning the ministry is the first step into darkness’ or words to that effect. The hubris of this statement is beyond the pale, and, in fact, contributed to many people leaving the church.
“If you want to be mad at someone for tearing down our fellowship…be mad at the deviant abusers who used our flock as their personal feeding ground”. What a powerful and on-point statement!
I am sickened by the denials, the minimizing of the abuse, the ‘running cover’ for the perpetrators, and the lack of true remorse and caring for the victims. And the deflection of the real issue by posting stupid things like the real number of signatures is only … not 800. Wake up to the real issue people.
I posted this comment when the letter first began circulating and wanted to re-post since it is being re-examined.
Magical thinking. This is what comes to mind when reading this letter and response. I would love the friends to enact positive change for the Truth. We sincerely miss some of what the Truth offered us, but unless we are engaging in magical thinking, how can fruitful change occur so that this Way is scriptural and not immoral?
Please ask yourself these questions:
Do you believe that the ministry has to take part as the current 2×2 structure? Too many people believe and hang their hat on this- homeless ministry with meetings in the home to ever let this go. (Please take a step back and consider that Peter and Judas were married. The workers are not the apostles and could never meet the criteria of the apostles. Making workers meet this unscriptural and unnatural sacrifice will continue to result in immoral behavior and attract and retain individuals with atypical and concerning personalities.)
Will the overseers ever step down? Why would they? They have all the power and control and have no where to go.
Will the Overseers reveal the millions of dollars they have? This seems doubtful. This is a very complex “Way”. Far more complex than any church.
Can people drop the traditions- dress, manner of speech, removed way of “connecting”.? Very doubtful. Too many people equate traditions to Godliness and enjoy the vanity and pride it affords.
Will Truth ever consider that giving to the poor and helping the needy does not mean to just to the workers? Doubtful. This has never been preached from what I remember after being in meetings for over 40 years.
Will Truth stop being exclusive and acknowledge and respect the work God and His Holy Spirt have had in “outsider’s” lives for over 2,000 years and maintaining the Church? Doubtful. Feeling exclusive makes people feel special and entitled to God’s favor and has been part of the teaching since the Truth was founded.
Will Truth openly and often acknowledge its founder and origins? Doubtful? I went over 40 years without hearing about William Irvine and now know The Truth was started by an imbalanced, charismatic, and false prophet.
So where do we go from here? First step must be to stop magical thinking. Your children’s souls and own souls deserve more. While I dearly wish this Way could be fixed, it seems impossible. It appears that God is dismantling it due to decades of immorality and foundational darkness.
Magical Thinking – Agree with every word you wrote. If one goes back to the Perry Pearson letter on Wings (May 21, 2023) titled Dakota Workers Meeting May 2023, Perry clearly thinks that he and maybe his coworkers are modern day apostles. Not sure he should be taking that stance.
To magical thinking,
Can you give me what are some of criteria’s to be apostles today? According to your understanding.
Jesus 2×2 ministry, truth and Way of the New Testament ministry and fellowship has continued for 1800 years long, long time before the Faith Mission, William Irvine and the early 2×2 workers in the late 1800s.
Don’t worry God and Christ will remove the tares, unfaithful servants, bad fishes from the ministry and the 2×2 fellowship in due time. God wants to give people opportunity to repent before He cut them off forever.
“Jesus 2×2 ministry, truth and Way of the New Testament ministry and fellowship has continued for 1800 years.” Just Wondering, your statement is very profound. Please provide documentation for your statement. I think you are somewhat misleading by making such a provocation on the “2 x2 way” of spreading God’s Word for 1800 years. No doubt that God’s Word was spread. But, by 2 x 2 ministers? I was a history major in college and I am always ready for a new lesson. Please provide documentation. What you’re saying is simple not true, that has been seen in any reality. Now, yes, Jesus Christ and His message has gone forward and will continue to do so. Let us keep this real. And, appreciate The Lord, Jesus Christ. It’s not about the messenger.
Criteria of an apostle:
1) An Apostle was an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ. Acts 1: 21-22.
The apostles were the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20), and so it was important that they had been with Jesus himself and, in particular, seen him resurrected from the dead. Even the apostle Paul met this criterion, though in a unique fashion.
Paul refers to himself as an “untimely” apostle (1 Corinthians 15:7–8)
2) An apostle was directly called by Jesus (Mark 3:13-16)
3) Apostles demonstrate wondrous works or miracles
Direct revelation and healings were for the purpose of confirming apostolic authority as Christ’s representatives, and once the New Testament was completed, these gifts ceased.
Prior to reading the history of the truth/2×2’s on wikepedia and Preserving the Truth by Kropp-Ehrig, I also believed that this ministry began at the Sea of Galilee. Now I am grappling with the disillusionment that the truth began in Ireland by a William Irvine.
Have you read this book? It is very dense and lengthy but is worth the read, as it filled with primary sources and a clear history of the truth.
To Apostle….
You have been mislead my friend about the Criteria for being an apostle… You wrote ” An Apostle was an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ. Acts 1: 21-22
1) Paul, Mark, Luke, Timothy, Titus, others and thousands of apostles through the centuries had NOT the privilege to Witness Jesus Resurrection in Acts 1:21-22…. but Paul called himself an apostle including Timothy, Silas as apostles of Christ Read I Thess. 1:1;2:6.
2) Timothy was an apostle of Christ and he stomach problem and he couldn’t heal it, and Paul couldn’t heal him either…. There are other apostles of Christ sick close to death and Paul couldn’t heal him either.
Act 1:21-22 were the criteria for Matthias and Barsabas to replace Judas I. place with the 12 apostles. The apostles did NOT want a rookie apostle but someone who had been with them from the beginning of Christ’s ministry.
Jesus asked the 12 and 70 apostles to PRAY to God the Father that He would send forth laborers/workers into His harvest field for the next 2000 years Plus… How can anyone in the ministry if NONE of them were alive 2000 years ago when Jesus ascended back to heaven in Acts 1:21-22? It would be IMPOSSIBLE criteria for ANYONE to become an apostle.
Yes, I know and have studied most of Cherie K. work for over 25 years. Her knowledge of Jesus 2×2 apostolic ministry and New Testament through the centuries is LACKING greatly so, She missed the whole picture because of it. She has mislead thousands of friends and workers down the WRONG path.
What God had revealed to you, and those like you the Way and Truth of Jesus go all the way back to the shore of galilee did NOT come from men teaching but Christ Himself.
Read the Pilgrim Church book
Chapter 10 on the Vaudois/Waldenses 68- 1800 A.D.
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
To qualify as an apostle of Christ Read Mathew 19:16-29 Jesus laid the criteria. To leave family, possession, and all behind and have faith in God that He will provide all of the apostles needs through their converts. Going in Faith!
Jesus said SEEK ye First the kingdom of God and ALL these natural needs shall be given unto you.
Instead of throwing stones at Cherie Kropp-Ehrig, maybe you should consider writing your own book. Nobody has directed more light at the group than Cherie. If her book Preserving the Truth is “LACKING so greatly” you really need to step up to the plate and provide a rebuttal and write your own book – 25 years of studying Cherie and her work is a long time – your life must be very hollow. Very sad when one is critical, but offers nothing else.
There were only 12 apostles. Jesus selected those 12 and gave them the power to perform miracles. Jesus said for them to leave all not sell all. While we do not know much about the apostles’ history, we know that Peter and Judas were married; John had a home where he cared for Jesus’s mother, Mary; and all but one apostle (John) was martyred.
While similar structures to the truth existed, the origin story of the truth began with William Irvine. Not all agreed with Irvine’s understanding of the scripture.
Forgot to mention that Cherie was one who started Wings For Truth long before Dean Bruer was found dead in the hotel room and if not for her efforts, the CSA scandal in the group may still be in the dark. Her book covered CSA/SA in the early days of the group. This book is a must read for all that have any connection to the group.
For Christ | July 25, 2023 at 1:50 am
“Jesus 2×2 ministry, truth and Way of the New Testament ministry and fellowship has continued for 1800 years.” Just Wondering, your statement is very profound. Please provide documentation for your statement.
I think you are somewhat misleading by making such a provocation on the “2 x2 way” of spreading God’s Word for 1800 years. No doubt that God’s Word was spread. But, by 2 x 2 ministers?
I was a history major in college and I am always ready for a new lesson. Please provide documentation. What you’re saying is simple not true, that has been seen in any reality. Now, yes, Jesus Christ and His message has gone forward and will continue to do so. Let us keep this real. And, appreciate The Lord, Jesus Christ. It’s not about the messenger.
~~~ Here is my story I love reading and studying history also.
I first heard about the Vaudois/Waldesense when Jay W. and I were together as co-workers in North Bend, Oregon 1988-89.
There was a University church historian, who gave a lecture about the Vaudois/Waldenses and Peter Waldo in 1160 A.D. It was an amazing lecture to listen to her. A few months later, someone gave us the Pilgrim Church by Broadbent at Boring convention, and some of the workers Jay W. Randy R. and myself read the book in the car on our way to other conventions. We found out more information about the Vaudois history and Peter Waldo, the Frenchman who became follower of the Vaudois and his amazing 2×2 apostolic ministry up till the time he died.
After I left the work in 1993, I put a lot of time searching, studying and find all I could about the Vaudois history and their belief, from other historians and their own church historians. I was astonished of the information available on the Internet on the Vaudois, Albigenses, Poor men of Lyons/France or Peter Waldo and his followers in the 11th century.
Someone on TMB post the pilgrim church book by Broadbent and I am glad they did so others can read it for themselves. I had post many of their belief and teachings for 20 yrs.
Title: The Pilgrim Church
Author: E. H. Broadbent
Chapter V history of the Vaudois/Waldenses
This classic work demonstrates that the true heart of this amazing drama is not even recorded in church history books. Right from apostolic days there have always been little groups of persecuted believers who just wanted to follow the Lord. Written in an engaging style, this book will thrill your heart with the stories of unknown heroes of the faith.
It will spur you on to greater devotion to the Lord Jesus and a deeper concern for His suffering people in many countries today. Originally published in 1931, The Pilgrim Church is considered a modern classic. It provides a comprehensive history of the church from the apostolic age to the twentieth century through the prism of the New Testament church model.
Date first posted: July 2010
gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
Pope John Paul in the year 2000 and Pope Francis in 2020 asked forgiveness on Monday for the Roman Catholic Church’s “non-Christian and inhumane” treatment in the past of the Waldensians.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/28/pope-francis-waldensians_n_7644916.html?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000055
I agree with the notion, ‘“ Right from apostolic days there have always been little groups of persecuted believers who just wanted to follow the Lord”. There have always been people who have followed Christ Jesus. Yes. The 2 x 2 ministry, no.
Sorry, let me try the Vaudois/Waldense link again..
Here is the Vaudois history, belief, teachings from 68-1800 A.D. You will be surprised how much these true Christians 2×2 apostolic ministry, and fellowship believe Vs. the early days 2×2 workers ministry, teachings and belief they are like brothers and sisters…
Read Chapter V
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
@Alan Watts, I wholeheartedly agree with you. All our local worker can seem to recommend is to “stay in the boat” and “keep pulling on the same oar”. I don’t know much about boats, but if everyone is using the same oar it seems to me we will just go in circles. Getting dizzy here.
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2×2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices.
They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders–Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others.
The young movement held the course to take was ‘Come out of Babylon’ which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
There is no documentation showing a “2 x2 way” of spreading God’s Word for 1800 years. Christ Jesus teaching, yes.
NB, you noted, “I was astonished of the information available on the Internet on the Vaudois, Albigenses, Poor men of Lyons/France or Peter Waldo and his followers in the 11th century”. Today, there are the William Irvine followers. I followed the William Irvine way for 50 years. Aside from there being absolutely no continues string of a 2 x 2 ministry, the ministers in the 2 x 2 minister do not hold to the Word of God, as presented in Bible.
Jesus baptised freely, with many being baptized at one time, in many cases. In the 2 x 2 religion set JP by William Irvine, I found out you have to get the workers approval that you can be baptized! I learned this after a person very dear to me was not allowed to show their public declaration of their faith in Jesus Christ; and was REFUSED to be baptized by the workers! The workers have “DISCERNMENT” on such matters, I was told by the “head worker” in our state. He could not find where in the Bible (THE WORD OF GOD), that gives ANYBODY such authority, to DENY someone of their life changing decision. The Bible doesn’t deny anyone baptism.
“That”, referring to the Bible, the head worker said, “won’t help”, in answering my question about who can get baptized, and who can NOT. WORKERS “discernment” was HIS answer; or “the ability to judge well”! This overseeing head worker was “CONVICTED and SENTENCED for failure to report CHILD SEX ABUSE of which HE had knowledge”, taking place in a members home. AND, HE determined HE knows better than the Word of God?!
This “overseer” has the ability to judge well? No, the head worker just got the “brother worker” to another state, to commit more crimes — and not to a police station. After getting caught in his crime, and then serving time, this overseer is STILL a “head worker” today and still decides who can come and go into members homes, hiding real truths HE knows and keeping secrets of the “truth”. This guy would say later in a letter to members of the STILL ongoing child sex abuse in members homes, “we are shocked by this”, while he has been covering up for the sex abusers! His police mug shot is available to view online.
NB, I will not subject myself, or loved ones to a child sex criminal who determines who can be baptized in a religion this man runs. It’s not Biblical, as is not the present 2 x 2 religion. ….Sorry Wings For Truth for the lengthy reply.
We were so disappointed and disturbed when we read Jerome Frandel’s court documents. He had stayed in our home on multiple occasions and we had never heard about this court case. Needless to say, we felt betrayed that no one had shared it with us as undoubtably some in the area would have seen it.
With all that said, while I am not justifying Jerome’s actions, I would imagine that Jerome’s choices were a product of the truth’s culture of secrecy and obsession with unity and image no matter the cost for the individual.
We heard him say regarding divorce and remarry decisions, that “his hands were tied”. I would be very surprised if Jerome made the decision to not report solely on his own. I suspect that he was instructed on what to do.
In some states it is felony to not report CSA and/or a felony to encourage/instruct another to not report CSA? – Which begs the question, how many overseers are uncharged felons?
Additionally, it showed a great lack of integrity that he allowed his lawyer to patronize the professing women in the court room. No excuse!
Like many of the overseers, Jerome is getting older and will be meeting his Maker soon. If I was in his shoes, I would want to fully repent by stepping down.
Lastly, I do have compassion and care for Jerome. He, like many, have influenced and misled and now are having to pay the price for the truth’s foundational darkness.
1) For Christ wrote: July 25, 2023 at 2:02 pm
There is no documentation showing a “2 x2 way” of spreading God’s Word for 1800 years. Christ Jesus teaching, yes.
~~ NB writes… Here are scriptures/teachings of Jesus and the apostles where they teach Jesus 2×2 New Testament ministry and fellowship have CONTINUED through the centuries to 1800s and to our days and to the time of Jesus RETURNS! as King of kings and LORD of lords.
I began to show Jesus ministry began in Galilee 2000 years ago, the 12, 70 apostles and Paul carried the GREAT Mission Matthew 28 gospel of Jesus Christ to Rome in 68-1800 A.D., and his converts/apostles left Rome due to RCC persecution and they spread it to France, England, through out Europe, Africa, Russia, Ireland, and Scotland…. The Faith Mission, then William Irvine and the early days workers which brought the gospel to MANY nations exist in our days such in Asia, China, Korea, Vietnam and so on….
https://professing.proboards.com/thread/25658/nathan-time-line-irvine-founder?page=1
It’s said, “…then William Irvine and the early days workers which brought the gospel to MANY nations”. You have got to be kidding me! The idea that William Irvine is in line with the teachings of Christ Jesus? William Irvine was a womanizer and it is known, William Irvine had AT LEAST one child out of wedlock after he set up his “way”. William Irvine is not ANYONE you would want to associate with, or your kids to be close to. In Proverbs it’s said, “Like snow in summer or rain in harvest, so honor is not fitting for a fool. Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight. A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself”. I will comment no further. You, follow a failed man. I will follow Christ Jesus. Good luck.
To For Christ,
The current overseers and leadership are in great danger…. They didn’t handle CSA situation correctly for MANY years! now, they are paying for their mistakes for NOT taken it seriously. MANY Overseers, the workers and the friends didn’t understand that CSA can cause brain damage, having suicidal thoughts, Bi-polar, and so on…
Myself and a few friends and a worker posted articles about CSA within the ministry and fellowship and where the Victims can find and get help, in the year 2000 on my website, before WINGS for Truth website started a few years later.
God and Christ are using CSA to cleanse the ministry, get rid of the rotten apples in the barrel, the tares out in the open, hoping they will REPENT of their sins before they died because After death there is no Second chance,
I pray to God and Christ that they will draw near to the Victims and give them peace and Rest from within to let them know God has PREPARED a better home for them in heaven. There will be no more tears, sorrows, pains, sufferings…. ALL these things which they suffer here on earth will be forgotten and be remembered NO MORE! He will RESTORE the JOY and Peace to them forever and ever.
Please be careful and not fall over for patting yourself on the back so hard. In my parts, you would be referred to one with a big hat.
Need to also say that do not ever recall reading in the Bible of “God and Christ are using CSA to cleanse the ministry” and then taking decades to do it. Leviticus 20: 1-3 states that the punishment for child sacrifice was to be immediate death via stoning. Verses 4-5 state that those that “close their eyes” to this evil practice (like the Montana 12 and many others in the group that provide CSA cover) were also to be stoned and put to death immediately. And please do not say that child sacrifice in the Bible is different from modern day CSA. It is not.
Response to NB- I have heard and read others also say that God is using CSA to cleanse the ministry. I know God as our Father and as one who loves us more than anyone of us can possibly love another. And…He really loves children more than even a natural parent.
Are you saying that God is using children being sexually abused to clean house?
This makes my stomach turn. It sounds as though you are saying that this is part of God’s plan and He has allowed children to be sexually abused so that He can cleanse His ministry. Is this what you’re stating?
One other issue that it stomach turning is the Workers’ comments regarding not making policies or pursue outside investigations because that would not be “Spirit Led”.
It sounds as though they are using God and the Holy Spirit as a scapegoat to NOT protect children.
How does God feel about being used as a scapegoat to not protect His beloved children?
Since the 80’s it is estimated that the truth has dwindled 50%. While we all did not know of the CSA and coverups back then, God did. What will the extent of this exodus be? Is God dismantling the truth due to the foundational darkness?
Want to know if this ministry is of God?
Ask yourself these questions.
1) Do they preach God’s Salvation without adding anything to it?
2) Did they and do they exibit the fruit of the Spirit in dealing with CSA, SA, advocates standing up for the abused amongst them, people questioning their teachings in comparison to the Bible, emotional abuse amongst them ect.?
3) Did they teach God’s whole council and obeyed it themselves?
Please read Jude, 2 Peter 2, Revelations 2:2
Yes, Jesus Christ 2×2 apostolic ministry and New Testament is established by God the Father in Luke 10 and Matthew 10.
Before sending out the 12 and 70 apostles Jesus asked the apostles to Pray to God the Father that He would send more apostles/Workers into the harvest field/the world.
The workers and the friends stray from Jesus teachings but it doesn’t change God’s Truth and Way on earth. The remnant of believers will carry on to the time of Jesus returns.
Were Eli and his son’s not part of God’s chosen ministry?
Was the corrupt king Saul who was anointed king through the ministry of Samuel not of God?
Is the ministry Jesus established not of God because Judas who he chose became corrupt?
I wanted to add my name, but could not completely sign on to the full content of the letter.
I can not agree Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkley or Dale Shultz “take the lower place”., as requested.
I see the need to step aside completely from the ministry.
I can not agree with the second part of this letter.
I feel we need to move away from what has grown into a hierarchy.
Additionally, move away from a management system, to where the whole church can discuss, and a true ministry work entirely together as one on decisions, planning etc.
Remove the authority, titles, responsibility, and become one. One where the smaller voice also has an ear.
It is a big start, big change and big discussion.
I am very thankful for every name that has supported this letter.
I am greatfull too for the ambition of this letter and every sincere pleading and firm stand to open the door for a real and necessary change.
It would be clear to most, according to scripture God is not pleased.
Apostle is correct. Reread the post from Apostle, July 24, 2023 at 11:57 pm;
Criteria of an apostle. This defines an apostle. It is easier, and much more comfortable to stay with what is familiar, rountine and the usual habit. It is also easier to stick your head “in the sand” and not have to face reality, or that which is directly in front of you. It takes work, and to step out of your comfort zone to grow. This could mean losing weight, getting a job that is better for you, or Spiritual growth. Growing Spiritually is no different than other life endeavors. You have to first recognize what is wrong, and then, be willing to change it. Putting your name on the list of nearly 800 people calling for change would take courage. Every person on that list is known now, and there will likely be repercussions. The silent majority are simply followers to be led by whom, wherever. I suggest everyone looks at the definition of an apostle and realize they are NOT being lead by an apostle, but by a regular human that wields authority. Lots of authority, including CSA, SA, and Spiritual abuses cover-up. The victims of these abuses deserve more people to leave their comfort zone and stand with them, the victim.
We’re in a cult. Couldn’t be more obvious. Once you see it you can’t unsee it. Sure, there are great great people but that’s beside the point. My best friends are professing and I have love for all of them.
I think things have become more relaxed in the recent 20 years, but still the cultish ways dominate.
1. Our church is the only true church.
2. Limit your influence with the outside world because “worldly people” could influence you. Although Jesus regularly dined and spent most of his time with sinners.
3. Clothing enforcements. Women wear dresses and homely clothing. Even if they are attractive and more voluptuous, they must further water themselves down and “strap themselves down” if you will.
4. No nail polish.
5. No makeup.
6. No pants.
7. No TV (yes workers are still talking to families about removing TV’s from their home while every worker has a cellphone that has far worse access to websites and videos). I can’t stress enough the serious brainwashing regarding this. Bigger the screen then the bigger the sin?
8. Must attend every meeting or you’re spiritually unwell.
9. Must profess through a worker
10. Must be baptized in this church even though you’ve been baptized by “another church”. (I’m sure God recognizes the spirit of baptism regardless of who dunks you. I’ve witnessed other baptisms and they say the same thing when you’re under water. “Baptize you in the name of the father, son and the Holy Spirit”). In fact, I know many people who should be rebaptized under this logic because many of the baptisms I’ve seen in our faith were done by workers who now have left the work due to CSA allegations. So their baptism shouldn’t count.)
11. Used to be no radios.
12. Don’t date outside.
13. Don’t marry outside.
14. No alcohol.
15. No dancing at weddings
16. No dancing, period. (I’m guessing the devil will enter you when you slow dance?)
17. No excuses to miss Wednesday meeting. If your kid plays sports and it falls on a Wednesday, no sports.
Add to the list if you want. You can be a joyous “prisoner” by choice all you want. However, all this church relies on is brownie points and how much you do for the field and friends. Meanwhile, the workers (90 percent of the workers) truly do nothing all day long. They have to prepare for meetings so they can’t have other responsibilities. Meanwhile, we all work jobs and have families and prepare for meetings as well. Call it Stockholm syndrome or call it a joyous prisoner. Call it “bred in captivity”. Call it whatever you want. But the shaming and abuse you face when you leave is horrendous and psychotic. I’ve yet to see anybody respond to any of my comments to try and save me from this thinking.
The saints prayers don’t matter because the workers are taking care of our worries for us. If you go to a worker with an issue they’ll tell you that they will pray about it. Meanwhile, I HAVE prayed about it. Why would God tell them what to do with my prayer? I’m the one who’s praying. It’s hard not to get emotional and angry with all of this when you’re the one who is wide awake and so many of you are all still sleeping. Your overseers and ministers are molesting children. And you’re upset with those who are upset? Honestly, what is wrong with you all? B. R. A. I. N. W. A. S. H. E. D.
This church breeds narcissists. It breeds you to think everyone else is going to hell. No? Then why do I need to keep showing up to meetings? If people are going to hell on the outside, is meetings the ticket to eternity? DEAN BRUER was going to meetings and now we learned he was living a double life. So maybe meetings aren’t the causation?
Maybe you CAN be a good person and be just like Jesus on the outside? I know so many people who are far better than me on the outside. Poor them. They didn’t have meeting attendance and won’t taste of Gods eternal kingdom. Absolute whack logic. WHACK LOGIC. yes, I’m angry. I don’t need to work on my anger. Don’t focus on my anger. Focus on the message. Jesus was often angry. He flipped the tables over and stormed people out of the temple. I don’t think you can do that peacefully? No. Sometimes anger is necessary. Things need to change. If your family member was molested or had the opportunity to be molested you wouldn’t be angry? If some worker manipulates you and abuses your friend who is a worker you wouldn’t be angry? You’d be understanding? You’re a cuckold is what you are. So many milquetoast and weak men and women who claim it’s actually meek. No. You’re weak and have no place at my table.
Alan Watts
THANK YOU FOR EVERY WORD YOU WROTE!!!!! This is the most thought out, well-said explanation I’ve read so far.
I am 24 and I was born and raised in this cult. I quit going to meetings after being molested by one of the “friends” for 2.5 years starting the day after I professed at convention when I was 10 years old. I haven’t been going to meetings for more than 10 years and I still am unbrainwashing myself. I grew up with all the rules you listed and more. I have seen the hypocrisy of almost every single rule you listed. One of the obvious ones is the “no TV” rule, as you said, everyone’s got a smart phone, but oh no the big bad TV is gonna send you to hell. Hilarious now that I look at it from the outside.
There has always been so much emphasis on keeping to a form (even though they insist there’s no form or list of rules) that the big issues have been overlooked. These leaders actually claim to have not realized the seriousness and effects of child sexual abuse but they claim to know the eternal effects of having a TV in your home or being a female that wears jeans or a tank top.
Your point about baptism is a good one. I have been realizing lately that many of the people who taught me about God in my lifetime have now been exposed as pedophiles, protectors of pedophiles, or complicit in other crimes and other forms of abuse, etc. So to me, that voids every word they taught in meetings and conventions about God. You can’t uphold the word of God while abusing and molesting children, or allowing and enabling it.
I have been rebaptized outside of the cult and I can say that my baptism at the gross little duck pond at convention with my abuser watching me, compared to my recent rebaptism in the presence of people who don’t hide their faith under frumpy clothes and in secret meetings, who cheered and were joyful and glad when I came up from the water, they were two very different experiences. I am so grateful that I now get to have a relationship with God that doesn’t depend on being part of a corrupt secret group or “professing” my faith through certain human beings.
Anyways thank you for posting your thoughts, I appreciate you putting out the information that people need to keep seeing to open their eyes. My entire family is still part of it and for that reason I do not have a relationship with them, for my own well being and that of my children. I hope they see these comments and wake up to all of this.
Well said! Righteos anger is the right response to all these atrocities and brain washing, not patiently waiting for better days!
Alan Watts, you hit a bullseye saying, “Sometimes anger is necessary. Things need to change”. A friend of mine that was very, very successful told me many moons ago, ” for things to change, YOU have to change “. At first I did not understand what he meant. Then I realized, that everything else is going to stay on it’s present path, unless something knocks it off of that path, and that included me, too. Nothing changes unless there’s an impetus for the change. Either my thinking had to change, or some event in my life had to occur for me to be knocked off my present path, for me to change. Alan, from the way you write, which is vey clear, you have changed. You are no longer controlled by your old path. You are thinking and you are not letting time just pull you forward and staying with the status quo, or existing state of affairs. Allen change has come to you and you will be happy for it. And, you’re right, “Sometimes anger is necessary. Things need to change”. Sometimes that change is us.
Allen Watts, I don’t believe you mentioned the “black stockings”. That used to be a huge, huge deal back when my mom and her, in the work aunt, were first generation professing members. Women that were professing HAD to wear black stockings! No exceptions. Dress code and form has always been the first credential to ” belonging “. Christ does not require such trivial burdens to belong with Him. It’s much more comfortable and enjoyable!
I am part of this fellowship for 50 years. The problem lies with how we have been brought up, that is to keep a right spirit and not offend anyone. Problem is this has been taken to extreme. We all know sometimes a good telling off works wonders, clears the air and rights the boat. There are people in our fellowship who take advantage here and carefully turn issues around so that the problem is not theirs.
If we were able to challenge friends, elders, workers and overseers, without retribution (as would happen in our places of employment) then this imbalance would not occur.
On my mind changes are unable to be made until we all band together and challenge management, unfortunately that is highly unlikely due to those who see meeting attendance and worker worship as their ticket to salvation.
Agree! Well said.
Put yourself in our shoes here in South Africa. It is “business as usual” Half of us know about the shocking CSA and abuse cases and the other half either don’t know or refuse to believe it. So many are discouraged and some have left or want to leave. No letter, No acknowledgement, No encouraging words, No transparency. We have our share of historical CSA cases, we heard about two in the last month! But the attitude seems to be ” if we don’t talk about it then maybe it will just go away!!”
I hear you Fedup, not easy to continue in the fellowship whilst the leadership goes on as usual, not a suprise though, wolves in sheeps clothing in the leadership over there.
I am a ex S.A
If any men providing their thoughts on here would like respect or credibility, please refrain from commenting on women’s bodies, clothing, size, etc. It is not your business if my clothes are frumpy or if I am attractive. Only one upright man matters to me, and that is my husband. Please keep your eyes on Christ!
Max | June 20, 2023 at 2:09 am
Hoffman stated above that “recently we have become much more aware of the various aspects of CSA, the lifelong damage to the victims, the ways of the perpetrator”. HOWEVER, in his May 30, 2008 letter regarding serial CSA offender Ira Hobbs (which is on Wings for Truth), Hoffman stated that “this kind of abuse (CSA) often leaves emotional, mental and spiritual scars that can plague the victims for many years to come”. The letter also had an attachment titled “Information on Child Sex Offenders”. Based on this, it appears that Hoffman DID KNOW the effects that CSA had on victims over 15 YEARS ago!
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There was one group of people that Jesus spoke strongly to, the Pharisees of His day, He didnt beat around the bush when it came to them!
We should follow His example.
Some have commented that people are using these atrocities as a vendetta against the “way”.I feel it is more getting to the root of the problems, I love the friends and workers, I hate some of their teachings aswell as these atrocities and immoralities that were and most likely still are commited, condoned and covered up amongst them.