Our Dear Friends, Workers and Overseers,
We have had many stories entrusted to us regarding the varied abuses that are endured by our workers. With these stories we have felt a compulsion and a measure of responsibility to bring awareness to many that likely don’t have an idea of what actually goes on in the “worker world” because it has been hidden to maintain an appearance of perfection. We collectively believe that awareness will help all of us in becoming more vigilant gatekeepers, especially for the most vulnerable workers. Some of these stories will cut your heart like a knife, we know it has ours, as each one has been brave enough to come forward. So many of these folks’ scars will never be diminished until they are safe in the arms of God on the shores of eternity. May we all be filled with a heart of compassion and a spirit of Christ as we read each one. Please also know, if you are suffering in the ministry, or have suffered, you will be heard and believed by so many of us that care, please reach out to trusted friends and there will be resources to assist you, a confidential email is available to any who may need assistance Ahandheldout@gmail.com where friends can be contacted.
Sending love and care from concerned Elders, wives, and friends that love and care about those who have been and are in the ministry.
WINGS Note: The pdf document below has stories from 13 workers of abuse within the ministry. The primary focus of WINGS is Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) but these stories illustrate the unhealthy attitudes within the ministry that have allowed CSA to be hidden, minimised and badly managed.
Discover more from WINGS for Truth
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
WINGS for Truth 
I’m not easily shocked anymore but this is truly shocking. And shameful. It should be sent to all workers everywhere.
I’m so sorry for you all.
Nothing surprises me anymore about the ministry. It’s rotten, spoiled and extremely self-righteous. Continually pumped up by the friends. The friends are more fearful of the ministry than they are of God. What I once thought was so wonderful and sacred is now an absolute joke! What a fool I’ve been! My sincere apologies to ALL who have been hurt. I’m sorry for pumping up the ministry. I am truly sorry for my part.
Jesus is weeping and God is sharpening his sword.
Skip – please do not be too hard on yourself. Me and my lovey wife also believe that we were played for fools for decades and have many regrets, including raising our kids in such nonsense. We treated the workers with great respect and wasted many a Sunday driving for miles to hear about “the sower and the seed” and “the one true way” over and over and over again. When we found out we had been blatantly lied to over the years we quietly left. These same workers that we had great respect for then made “harmful accusations” against us – like VERITUM seems to be saying below, except the other way around. Never once thought about suing them “for libel”. Did not think these “homeless workers” had any money anyway. If they do, they need to direct it toward the hundreds of CSA victims they have victimized. That being said, we thank God every day for setting us free from such a sanctimonious and self righteous group and that He got us out in His time. And this was before all the CSA/SA stuff hit the fan. Praise God and his timing.
Out of the thousands of satisfied, joyful workers you’ve managed to dredge up a grand total of 13 disgruntled people. And most of them left the fold years ago, are openly living sinful lives, or too ashamed to even sign their names to their slanderous statements! Oh my, what a scandal!
I’m sure most of our friends are wise enough to see through how a small, bitter minority is trying to divide the kingdom. If the conditions that God provides are so intolerable, feel free to jump off the ark into the floodwaters below and join the worldlings
Wow you sound so christianlike
Look at what the first two commenter wrote. Is that Christlike? Or is it that continuing in faith happened to write something that doesn’t agree with your narrative, so you decide to try to demean their comment. It’s ok. Just remember when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you.
Ditto
This is some more of the CCF strategy to divide and take over the fellowship. Nothing to see here folks.
Oh we have seen and are seeing plenty!!
The filth under the rug can’t be covered any longer! I’m seeing names I looked up to and realize this ministry is as bad or worse than the “worldly” churches . Anyone defending what has been under the rug all these years , are seriously in need of extensive psychiatric help!!
Thank you ex workers for sharing, you no longer have to fear those wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Hi BeHolder,
We have asked you on multiple occasions to engage with us, we are happy to understand what you are saying. However you still just choose to be anonymous and say things that are not factual here. Please do reach out and let us have a productive dialogue together. Thank you.
Wow! Just wow…your real spirit is showing. Feel free to take the blinders off.
The conditions God supplies are based on love. Many in this ministry only know one kind of love–SELF LOVE. The more I read about this ministry, the more I am convinced that it is run by Satan himself. Recently, I have happily jumped off of this sinking ark. I would much rather take my chances with the “worldlings” than with the known pedophiles, rapists, emotional abusers, and everyone who covers for them in this ministry and fellowship. My relationship with my Heavenly Father is not through this ministry or any other. It is through the ONE AND ONLY MEDIATOR ANYONE NEEDS–JESUS CHRIST!! Judge me if you want to, “continuinginfaith”. I don’t really care about what you think of me.
Continuinginfaith,
Perhaps you should read the accounts that lead up to the ark. The world was continuously evil. And by the way, there was no opportunity given to jump off.
I know you are defending what you believe. Good for you. And a final thought 🤔…how come your anonymous?
Reach out if you want…
skipthompsontile@gmail.com
There’s way more than 13 I reckon. And disgruntled doesn’t describe it adequately. Of course, it’s much easier to label someone who shares their views as disgruntled than truly address the real problems.
It is beyond me to see how anyone could read this post and other worker to worker abuse accounts on Wings or Expressions (ex2x2.info) and “continue in faith”.
Many of the workers have been abusive to one another from the time this started under William Irvine. Read about how Edward Cooney was treated.
I suppose from when Irvine set up the experiment and until now the scripture about the disciples asking who is the greatest and Jesus setting a child in their midst must of meant something else to the ministry than it does to me. There is no humility.
I didn’t sign my name because I still go to meeting as does my family. I didn’t sign my name because my name isn’t important – my message is. I didn’t sign my name because retribution is real. I didn’t sign my name because there are those who will only attack and not try to listen. I didn’t sign my name because my name is my companions’ names. I didn’t sign my name because the trauma is bigger than me. I didn’t sign my name because I do not live on an island and this story belongs to more than just me – they deserve to decide when and if they tell their part.
Thank you, and my heart goes out to you and the others. We hear you.
To continuinginfaith – I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty that these 13 people are just a small fraction of the many workers worldwide that have suffered abuse of all kinds. Your comment is ignorant and heartless.
@Continuinginfaith unreal! I see none that are disgruntled when I read these. I see shattered, bleeding, wounded lives that will never be the same again. I’m sorry you seem to have the spirit of a priest or a levite rather than the spirit of a samartin that will pick up a broken wounded brother and show them love. I’m so sorry Christ has not shown you what it feels like to be the Samaritan.
You cast judgement regarding their anonymity, but you’re scared to post your own real name. Truly unbelievable. I pray God will soften your heart before your days are done.
I guess you didn’t notice the “volume one” part.
Continuinginfaith We hear you. However we have seen and tried to comfort many who were abused as companions . Never once did we realize that we had the responsibility to confront or inform the overseer to protect these abused real, alive and wanting to do God’s Work as they and we understood “then”.
You say A SMALL, BITTER Minority! No, you need to wake-up! This is a very serious CONCERNED Group. THESE are worried about YOUR salvation!
God does NOT provide for this in any way nor does God’s Word EVER give license to this in any form!!
And you say 13. No the # is legion. There are records: well researched records published.
Please,you must read your Bible as written: Read God’s word and understand.
This “ministry” is NOT God’s Plan: Jesus came to bring that Nation of Israel back to God. Jesus fleshly ministry was only to Israel. Matthew 15:24 is only one place of this fact. BUT it is a good place for you to begin to STUDY God’s Word as written. Then try to understand Romans 11:7-:11″What about Israel IS blinded”? That Gospel of the Kingdom to God’s chosen Nation of Israel was and IS ‘cut-off NOW-for a season :25- :27. For How long??? Yes, a time word.
Galatians 2: all of it but read and understand :6 AND :7 AND :8. READ EACH WORD. UNDERSTAND EACH WORD. This is NOT a warm touchy feely moment for Paul nor the 12 as what God had required for and of the 12 Apostles……
“WAS NOT” what God required for and of Paul.
As in Acts 15: Those Jews -who- had believed in Acts 2:41 and followed the “Apostles :42-46 Doctrine: 4:4, 32-:37; and 5:14, AND again :42(Daily in the TEMPLE)::: Yep! that is what it says!
Now back to Acts 15:1 WHO came to Paul’s churches in “Antioch”?
Teaching what???
Paul had “NO small dissension and disputation” with them!
So to settle the MATTER Paul and Barnabus and others were to go up to Jerusalem((Yep, those 12 had NOT done Matthew 28:19-:20; WHY))
THE 12 are still in Jerusalem Did NOT go into ALL Nations; Why?
OH –OH! Acts 15:5 and who jumped in to stir the trouble? More of those in Jerusalem(Acts 6:7) who believed the 12 Apostles Gospel to Israel and doctrine
15:5 OOPS:; that wasn’t enough! Those who believed Apostles Doctrine, Demanded Paul’s Gentile “Church of the Grace of God”, do their “Jewish” Law!
You say Jesus nor the 12; did not teach the Law! Oh, Yea! Math. 19:17-:21
Yes, this is what Paul records by the very ‘Spirit of Christ'(1 Peter 1:11)!
Back to Paul’s account of this MEETING(( NO, it is NOT A “Worke’rs Meeting)!!
Galatians 2:2 WHY was it so important for Paul to stop THIS NONESENSE??!!
:This Gospel which I preach among the Gentiles:
: Lest by any means I should run in vain, or had run in vain
AND THAT :5 to whom we gave place by “subjection”, NO, NOT for an hour: WHY? that the truth of Paul’s Gospel “might continue with you”, Galatians!!!
Then read each word of the agreement of those who seemed to be -“somewhat”-(( :6 Yes, their very reason for preaching to the Jews had been withdrawn when that very Nation’s Government committed “blashphemy” against the Holy Spirit in Acts 7: and stoned Stephen.
Now the 12 who were represented by James, Peter and John :9 who seemed to be “Pillars”. ((Yes, their authority was over :11-:4, ((NOW is :19 – :21.))
made an “agreement” Galatians 2:9
:9 James, Peter and John MADE AN AGREEMENT with Paul and Barnabus that the Pillars of the 12 for the 12 WOULD ONLY GO to “circumcision=Jews.
and Paul and Barnabus would “”continue to go to uncircumsicion with the Gospel of the Grace of God given to Paul(Ephesians 3:1-:9) and 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
Continuinginfaith; If you have read this far; there is HOPE for you!. Continue to desperately read and study God’s word. God will open your understanding as he did Lydia.
I had a little bit of a hard time following your post but really want to dive into the study. Can you get my email from wings and share a little more with me please?
To Kim Marx This is Astounded. We understand it is hard to follow as it is impossible to say all that God in His Word has left on record. ((Yes, just even about Jesus in His fleshly ministry to God’s Chosen Nation of Israel; as God’s record of Jesus’ ministry is written in black and white for all to read.
(( Oh, it takes so much space to just write fully a simple thought. Each word is so important to give the full grasp of information.
Yes, Kim I would enjoy a deeper conversation with you. Your questions would be so important!
I do not know how to get your E-Mail from Wings, but I will search. If you know how, please let me know.
Do you really believe that “the conditions that god provides” would ever include sexual abuse of any kind, especially of children? And sweep it under the rug? And don’t say it doesn’t happen – I’m one of the survivors.
I understand you may feel like you personally are being attacked, or your faith is. It’s true, there are a small number of people who have become bitter and are being very vocal. But, look at WHY that has happened. Don’t just jump to the conclusion that they made the decision to “walk away”, because that’s not true in most of these cases. These are VICTIMS. They have been deeply wounded by our staff, an elder, or someone else that they thought they could trust. You claim there are “Thousands of satisfied, joyful workers”…how do YOU know they are? I know some who have been in the work for over 50 years (both men and women), they get to the microphone and faithfully share bread because of their love for souls that’s kept them IN the ministry/work…while they are putting up with verbal, physical, and sexual abuse by their companions and co-workers, and even Elders, and on occasion men in homes they visit. So, explain how it is ” Joyful or satisfying” to be terrified? Please try putting yourself in their shoes! I haven’t seen but one person on here, that seems to have given up on God, but we still love and in His Grace hope and pray for them/their souls. God loves every single soul, not just ones that go to meeting. Is there a path that Jesus layed out on how to serve him? Absolutely. But, in Ephesians 5 we read that NONE of these allegations should have been ONCE named amongst the children of God, so if these ministers/elders/men are claiming to be such…they are liars. Plus, you are belittleing the 13 that have bravely come forward. Even ONE is too many!!
Statistics show that 66% (or less) of victims will be too terrified or ashamed to come forward, so think of how many more there actually are. These trusted individuals were supposed to be bringing the Spirit of Peace into every home, meeting, convention, and gathering of anywhere they were…and instead, they were bringing the spirit of the devil and reigning terror upon children (both boys and girls), and men and women. Some have even been drugging their victims to keep them from fighting back!!
Some that haven’t reported, are waiting to do so until their court cases are over and the criminal/predator has been incarcerated…hopefully for 25+ years or more! You have to realize, that there’s only a handful of truly honest workers/elders. Let that sink in! We see it in letters that the workers are writing, either they are being deceitful, or straight up being dishonest, or using fancy words to divert people from learning the truth of a matter, or straight up giving false hope that a situation is actually being taken care of. It’s a severe misuse of power and authority. I highly doubt the congregation will ever be able to truly trust these humans again. They, by their error in judgment (because they haven’t sought God’s help first) are making knee-jerk decisions, being dishonest, and confirming that their position as Overseer, in every state and country, has created this mindset of abuse, rendering their position as ineffective, and we do not need or want “Overseers”, when they can’t be honest, and upright before God. We have lived on both sides of the United States, and have been well enlightened as to the abuse of power, harboring criminals, workers diddling each other on the convention grounds (on the PRIVATE PROPERTY of unsuspecting individuals), and in the friends homes (yes, some overseers have had their women follow them around). We have witnessed things being allowed that Jesus said “NO” to, and one poor unscriptural decision, leads to more ungodly decisions…the domino effect. Seems to me that God would be very angry with those who consider themselves “His Children” right now, and has had great patience in His mercy to give us time to fix all this, and He’s done waiting. So, He took Dean out…and started on the rest.
Some have questioned us for “Not doing anything about what we saw”…We DID! We kept at it…and were constantly lied to (by overseers and workers), deception was used, stripture was taken out of context, or verses had words removed to change them to mean something they didn’t, we were “summoned” in hopes of embarrasing us…it didn’t, and we were threatened, and didn’t cower. We finally moved, to spare our children being under the toutlage of mentally deranged men and women who were allowing Satan to rule in their lives, not realizing that we were jumping from the boiling pot into the red-hot skittle!! We are STILL standing for and with Jesus, and we are still working hard to keep the scripture and all Jesus taught before us.
Then, over the past 20 years…we see articles in Newspapers where workers have been interviewed, and they are spewing lies about the Bible (Longview Daily News https://tdn.com/lifestyles/worldwide-fellowship-needs-no-building-no-budget-no-bishops/article_9146e7e4-c8f6-551e-9c9d-d1dc8fbe437c.html ). We still know the way Jesus taught is right, and we continue to go and feed where His children do, and we can easily tell who has brought bread to share, and who hasn’t.
We would like to see a ministry who has actually read their Bibles and are continuing to do so, and spending time in prayer and meditation. Who don’t get offended when asked if they have time for a Bible Study, who love to visit about the things we read of in the Bible, and who love us enough to pray for us, and feed us. We don’t want a dishonest ministry who thinks it’s okay to abuse their power/authority and tell people how to live (unless there’s some qualification that Jesus set – like for the disciples, or elders). If someone has peace having a TV in their home, what difference is it to YOU? How about YOUR computer? We do NOT have a dress code other than “modesty”. If people are praying, you will see a common level of modesty, because the Spirit of God will teach the same to all people. It does talk about jewelry 1 Timothy 2:9, and women’s hair is mentioned 1 Corinthians 11:15, men’s 1 Corinthians 11:14, but do we need to admonish people who don’t want to wear modest clothes? We are cautioned that we DO NOT judge anyone. That’s not any human beings place. Look to yourselves. Judge what is right and wrong within YOUR own minds while seeking God’s approval, and live by what He shows you to be doing. You SHOULD be praying for others if you think they are struggling (or doing things you know is scripturally wrong), because God’s work from within is always done perfectly and without offense.
Well said I can truly say AMEN, AMEN to that. I heard the gospel 35 years ago and it was so very precious to me, and it was 92 year old Hubert Childers who touched my heart, he quoted Proverbs, My son give me thy heart, he said God wants our heart, he said some people have their religion in their heads but God wants to put it in your heart and that was like a balm to my aching
seeking heart ( I had seen so much of that in my life and it was so refreshing to hear a message like that) ,I told him after the meeting that I really appreciated what he said and he just said “well you just keep coming to the meetings”. That man was a true servant of God, it was said that when he died he had callouses on his knees from praying and meditating to God. Furthermore he had gospel meetings practically every day, it was said that he wore his young companions out trying to keep up with him, if the workers of our day would do that they wouldn’t have time for sexual and other abuses or even think to do such things shame, shame on those who have done such wicked things and may God judge them by His righteous wisdom and judgment. Amen.
The tears are streaming down my face as I read these stories. How much more has the heart of our Father been grieved? Jesus commanded that we love one another as he has loved us. These stories DO NOT line up with the love and compassion Jesus showed us.
Jude 1:3 we need to contend earnestly for THE faith. None of us can turn a blind eye to all the evil that has come to light. May God speak to each of us directly as to what we can do to help and may each one have act within the law of love and kindness.
I think everyone should be getting very familiar with the book of Jude right now. It is very relevant right now!
AMEN, AND AMEN!!!
Judges too! There was a HUGE problem, and over 400,000 rose up as one, in righteousness and did God’s work of stopping it all.
I always heard from the platform and at many types of special meeting that the 2×2 ministry was “planned by God in Heaven”. After reading these accounts, thinking it may have been founded in the dark depths of a burning lake of fire. The late great Johnny Cash often sang “A Burning Ring of Fire”, except he was taking about Love not Hate.
Unbelievable accounts but I believe every word, since I had the bad luck to rub shoulders with some of the named and some that are unnamed, such as Karen Tenniswood and her now infamous “Uncle Eldon” the reputed child molester. All this bad stuff is very bad – I need a drink.
Max,
I believe I’ll join you. Thank you for not being an eldonite!
If the below is not referring to Karen Tenniswood and her “uncle Eldon”, I sincerely apologize. Below is the excerpt from the account above from the the **Anonymous Sister Worker**. Also, Eldon Tenniswood’s CSA refuted activity was exposed on Advocates For The Truth in a May 15, 2023 account.
My third year I was with someone I thought the world of but she had made it her mission to reprogram me on divorce and remarriage. I came to meetings when my mom left my dad and married a man who was raised going to meetings. She brought up her stance and the importance of this unforgivable sin never being tolerated at many meals and visits. I would become isolated and quiet. She saw it and addressed it saying “someday I would understand”. When I heard of her Uncle, a west coast Sr worker, who was the major hard-nose to this belief of a merciless sin of divorce & remarriage, was one of the
ones who diddled children, all I could do was shake my head because apparently harming one of God’s children is forgivable and worth it.
Despite what the Home page says the purpose of this Wings website is, from what you are now publishing it has obviously become little more than a forum for those who obviously hate the Fellowship of Friends and Workers and want it destroyed. And you are free to do that if you want to, but in the United States you are not free to publish libelous harmful accusations against any named persons without verifiable evidence whether it is a CSA/SA or any other criminal accusation. However you have a handful keyboard warriors like Max and others who comment almost daily on every blog posted on this site often making harmful accusations against named individuals without evidence. And Wings approves these comments before they are published on the site. I would suggest you clean this up or you may find this website being sued for libel.
As far as I can see Wings allows freedom of speech, aslong as it is done in a civil way.
Now if you don’t want to hear any negatives about the fellowship this site is not for you.
I have said alot of negatives about the fellowship but I forsure don’t hate the people in the fellowship, I do hate their atrocities and keeping those secret, mishandeling CSA and SA and thereby futher hurting the vulnerable and innocent.
Not sure why you singled me out but who knows the minds of others. Nobody except for God. Do not recall making any accusations against anyone without evidence – it is not a good thing to lie. Satan is the father of all lies – that is scriptural – but not ever preached about in the group. I was the victim of a perverted old male worker in my teens – nobody did one thing about it due to his “senior brother worker” status. I am sure I was not the first kid or the last kid this creep ran his fat greasy fingers over. If anybody needs to be sued, it is the group that has practiced and accepted and coveted up CSA for generations. Maybe God will allow that to happen one day in His time. And please do not say I “hate” anyone – that is very offensive. I do not even hate that old pervert of a worker, who is now long dead. God will judge us all. I just pray every day that Jesus will return soon to end all wickedness and suffering in this world.
I’m not writing to comment on the libel issues (I agree it’s not wise to make or publish unverified allegations, but assume Wings staff know the legal implications as they’ve been running this site for many years).
I do want to say that I DON’T believe this site is “little more than a forum for those who obviously hate” etc. The regular commenters may be few and I agree some of them seem to be just venting or trolling, which is unpleasant, but look at the site view numbers in the right-hand sidebar: nearly 2.5 million views to date, most of which have accumulated just since April 2023 when the number was just 800k or so.
What this tells me is that this site is providing a much-needed information resource, perhaps especially for those of us who aren’t getting honest and timely communication – or any communication at all – on CSA/SA and related issues, from those who manage the work and meetings in our own areas.
I agree, but it isn’t providing the balance. It is like western media when there is an Islamic inspired attack – you get all the negative and none of the positive attributes. This turns the people against muslims, without seeing the human side.
This is happening so much so that the workers are dehumanised. We can see those who are leaving the work under immense pressure. The jeering crowd is saying they deserve it, yet many are “caught up in it”, they never set out in the work to experience this. In history, anything that dehumanises others no matter who they are leads to bad things.
At this point I don’t think WINGS is helping to inform and resolve, it is however helping to inform & destroy through its biased posts. This may be the objectives of the group owning it – but this should be clear. I find it very useful for informing, but limiting use for resolving.
I have caught WINGS mis-stating the professing “status” of abusers, the 400+ number being banded about includes those having consensual relationships, bullying and so on, the lack of context is meant to only show the negative. Not the fact that over the time frame (40-50 years) many of these states have had maybe 100’s of workers. The list of 400+ abusers also isn’t released, yet there are dozens of comment naming abusers… and these aren’t blocked.
Abuse must stop, but balance and honesty must come from both sides.
WINGS- approve the comment and provide your response.
Any correction on an abuser’s professing status at the time of abuse would be welcomed. WINGS tries to be as accurate as possible.
Questions over the 400+ number should be addressed to AFFT.
We are to love what God loves and hate what God hates. God loves all people, but he hates much of what we do. He hates our sins. We need to hate them as well. Hiding our sins from each other might work for a little while. But we can hide nothing from God. He sees all the mess that has been building up under the rug. And now He is doing the cleaning.
I am a 3rd generation “Truther”. Both sets of my grandparents had meeting in their homes. I have always loved the friends and workers, and still do. But what has been revealed in recent months has destroyed my trust in this ministry. I can no longer be a part of something I disrespect. So I have left the fellowship. I am not trying to convince anyone to follow me. I am not trying to destroy the fellowship. The fellowship is being destroyed by those who do evil and those who hide it. I believe that those of us who have left just want to be out of the ship when it implodes.
Well said!
I don’t think that jumping out the ship is very wise, what is going to keep you from drowning? If you jump from the ship you have to jump into the very deep waters and unless there is someone to help you out of the water you will sink and drown. So that is not the answer to the problem, you are just hurting yourself and others who follow you. Please reconsider and make a wiser choice. Stay and help to pray to God
for His help and intervention in these evil days and I know for sure that He will do what He sees needs to be done, for this has to be a grievance to His and Jesus’s hearts and it grieves the Holy Spirit of God also. And sometime there will be a reckoning of our Lord God then who will stand before Him?????
People that are singling out Max, I think this is unfair. I really enjoy the prospective Max brings. Max obviously knows what is talking about. He speaks truth, as one would expect from a Texas rancher, that he obviously is, and Max obviously knows the religion. Let him speak. I enjoy the first amendment and I enjoy truth. Thank you Wings For Truth and keep the channels open. p.s. I always loved the few western shows I saw as a kid at my friends house after school, since we didn’t have a t.v. Those western guys shot from the hip, and always hit a bulls eye! Max is like that.
I feel really sorry for all of the stories here and the broken hearts and lives and hopes. I do know that the work is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Working so closely together creates a mental strain and an emotional drain, especially when personalities and backgrounds and experiences and even values can be so different. Generational differences are huge. There isn’t much training in interpersonal relationships. We are told to fit in and to submit. Actually the longer I’ve continued, the more I understand this. It’s for all of us, married, in the work, etc. Submission is not meant to be a blind obedience – submission is by choice – it’s a desire to fulfill the needs of another. And when we both submit to the needs of the other, it’s a wonderful dynamic in any relationship.
But what should that look like? I know how much codependency there is in the sisterhood and power struggle amongst the brothers and frustrations between the two genders as well. But I worked for over 10 years before offering for the work. I think it helped me because I had already seen dynamics amongst the workers when they stayed with me, and I also was well aware of how it was in my workplace. I didn’t want to go into the work. I struggled for many years. And I would say I was mostly miserable for a good part of my early years. But then I was with an angel. I was only with her for two months. She taught me so much about human relationships. And things are changing in the world as well as in the religions. When I first started working, there was a lot more obedience and “yes sirs” expected from employees. And as that changed, so did the work. There are so many horror stories of how older workers treated younger ones. But in their eyes, the younger ones were out of their place. Because of how they themselves had been “trained”.
This angel I was with for two months – she was the most kind, compassionate companion I’ve ever had – she greatly bent herself for my needs. But it was all her desire and not according to obligation. And she taught me how codependency is so unhealthy and inappropriate for companions. It was really an empowering two months and I’m sorry that it was for such a short time. I will be eternally grateful for her.
All abuses are the same in this regard – if you don’t stop the cycle it will just get bigger. I don’t ever want to take away from the trauma of victims. But I know that I healed better when I stopped letting others’ treatment of me affect my peace or happiness. I have made a lot of companions mad at the beginning of our time together. I refused to wash my clothes in the expected way if I didn’t see that it was beneficial to us, but I would happily offer to wash their clothes for them. I called them on things they shared as doctrine that were not doctrine. But, because of the good example of that angel of a companion I’d been with earlier, I still tried to do right by my companion, and treat her as I wished to be treated, and submit to her needs and love her and love the friends. It hasn’t been easy and I’m mindful of my failures in this regard. But I would say that I usually won their hearts and their trust by the end of our year together. Because I wasn’t about to pretend to be submissive and obedient and then buck against them in covert ways. That’s grounds for health problems and bad choices. That’s what I did in the beginning. Now that I have responsibility, I have to constantly remind myself of what it’s like to be a younger companion. Because, after all, I’m human and I have a triple dose of human nature.
One thing that must be understood – is that those who have left the work as victims of emotional abuse have often left some serious scars of emotional abuse on their companions and others. Sometimes a lot of healing has to happen on the part of their companions after they are finally asked to leave the work. Some astute companions recognize a mental weakness/emotional struggle when they see it and can offer help, and some simply don’t get those kinds of things and/or have their own unacknowledged issues. And often it’s like a struggling marriage – companions often feel like victims of each other. I know the overseers are between a rock and a hard spot when it comes to those who are “difficult” companions. They are our brothers and sisters and we love them, but at what time do they set them free before more damage is done? Often it’s too late, in my book. All it’s doing is damaging everyone.
I do agree that it’s super unfortunate that a number of “companion killers” have been allowed to continue until the end of their life. I feel like the climate due to the CSA/SA crisis is also bringing to light this unhealthy issue. I notice that many who are super controlling are also super submissive to those they look up to. They are the ones who give power to the “hierarchy”. As a result, they expect to be treated the same way. And also as a result, the brothers often aren’t really aware of how that sister is to her companion, because she’s super nice to them (or at least the overseer). These kinds of controllers and manipulators have definitely played their part in pushing their companions to try to find a little relief for their misery, when in feeling so completely guilty, it seems there’s nothing left to lose. Why didn’t they stop in the work before they got to that point? Guilt is a tight noose. And who will stop the cycle?
I recognize many of you who bravely put your names. You often had a different way of looking at life than the others, and unfortunately that caused others to misunderstand and often undervalue you. I’m really sorry about this. I hope that wasn’t me. I know what it’s like to be different and misunderstood, but I don’t think it was to the measure that you suffered. I hope God grants you peace. I love you. Don’t give up on hope even if the work is no longer an option. Paul was also different and misunderstood – but he was the only one who was right. How is that even possible? But he endured because he had a vision directly from God, not through any worker or apostle. If it weren’t for the likes of him, we might still be sacrificing animals and think it’s right.
Jon I really appreciated what you wrote here. We had a lot of good talks at preps. Your sincerity always spoke volumes to me. I’m thankful to hear how God has blessed you through loving friends. You reached out to me and I’m sorry I didn’t keep in touch. I was going through my own struggles at the time. I’m thankful for God’s mercy in sending me an angel when I most needed her. I’m deeply sorry for not being an encouragement to you when you needed it.
Thank U for the shout-out, Your Sister. It was a “boost”! (Am guessing that was Rogers preps? Not too many workers would/could wrIte what U just did– U NAILED IT FLAT!! (I think Ur ‘Angel” rubbed-off onto U. Wonderful!)
I will sleep so beautifully tonight seeing these last two precious exchanges. This!!! THIS is what LOVE IS!!!! thank you to both “sister” and “Jon” for being lights in the darkness of some of our days! Sending so much love to you both out onto the web. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Hi Nadine. Thank U for the kind words. It’s like what somebody recently told me that their Grandpa used to say, “We’re all just walking each other Home.” There really STILL IS a lot of love and care for each other among people in this fellowship.
Thank you, dear Nadine! I do believe that love is our only hope.
Jon – you don’t know me, but I appreciate the softness and gentleness of your reply. It really is super refreshing.
What you went through was not easy I am sure, I can’t even begin to imagine it actually.
Thanks, “refreshed”, for the sweet compliment! Alas– I/We can’t take credit for any good in me/Us. We know the Lord is still working/doing Great Things His children and without His special Grace/Mercy to Us individually, We’re all just a bunch of Dirty Little Pigs! Hmmmmmm… I reckon I could take credit for the “pig” part! 😛 🙂
sorry, the word “in” was dropped between “Great Things … His children.
Hi Jon – I’ll just say this – it’s all “Greek” to me! 🙂 🙂 🙂
I reread what you wrote. I appreciated how you clarified your stance ahead of time and then you wrote how you had the courage to call out things that clearly appeared inappropriate to you. That gives people an opportunity to explain or change. Another thing you did was that was courageous is that you owned your own weaknesses and faults, and you called up everyone and apologized without bringing up their faults. This definitely has the power to break down walls. And then you had the courage to let go and move on and realize, let’s just support each other and go live forever together (my paraphrasing lol) — and sing! I hope you’ve found your healing brother – he called the big guns on you but just one woman took him out. Oh life has a way of being ironic doesn’t it.
I do want to just mention that when I reread my post, I realize that it was entirely too negative on the work. I don’t negate what I said previously. But I do think things are far different now than they were even 20 years ago. Even those that are quite elderly – many of them have had the flexibility to change. I’d rather not be in the work, but I’ve learned to love and value it. Could we use more ice cream and onion rings? Where do you get all that Jon, I wish I had your imagination. From my experiences there is generally a LOT of food!
Speaking of a lot – I am reading a lot of negative feelings about the ministry as a whole and I’m really very sorry for all who have had a negative experience with and in the ministry. I know that God can help restore credibility again if it is His will. Some even question if there needs to be two together. I know it’s not doctrine – it was never meant to be doctrine and shouldn’t be taught as doctrine. But God does use the witness of two (sometimes beings, sometimes other confirmations) throughout the Bible and it helps us. I don’t enjoy being with a companion. I like to be alone. But I’ve learned that having a companion is safe and I’m very thankful for my companion. It’s not usually what we do when we are with our companion that leads to problems – it’s what we do when we are alone.
Workers do come from all walks of life and from every kind of background and experience. Some times it’s been heart wrenching, some of the stories. But all of these things create emotional baggage and triggers and distrust that don’t just go away. These are the parts of us that we hate and at night we cry and pray for God’s forgiveness and help so that we don’t hurt anyone, wishing we didn’t have that part of us. But they are the parts of us that help us understand others. Manipulation and the likes – that’s not the result of a healthy background – it’s another form of having been victimized. At what point do we draw the line and say “you’re the victim” and “you’re the abuser” when the abusers are usually victims of previous experiences? Human relationship issues are from the dawn of time. I think it’s just meant to be part of the game, part of the process of learning how to love with a divine love.
We don’t need more children in the ministry – we need mothers and fathers who have the spirit of a child and love others as their own children. Those who have abused that place have ruined the reputation for us all, but I know there are still a lot of very special mothers and fathers in the ministry.
Bitterness is a bacteria that keeps us from healing. Forgiveness is vital. Forgiveness says “you’re wrong but I’m no longer letting it affect my spirit”. Forgiveness is the antidote for codependency. Forgiveness helps us to let go of the hurt and anger and emotions so that we can deal with the problem in a constructive manner that lessons the scars. Forgiveness is independence. Forgiveness is the boundary that protects our happiness and peace from the actions of others. Forgiveness can make manipulators angry because they can’t have control over us, and in time they can learn that we are someone they can trust (even if they never do).
Wabi-sabi. I like this word. It’s hard to own our own faults and weaknesses – accept that we’ve been made this way for a reason. The one thing more powerful than forgiveness is this of asking for it from another. It clears the air, softens hearts and deflates conflicts. Better than that green wasabi stuff, which in fact I don’t like too well.
These are just my thoughts as one who struggles every day to believe that God even exists and yet knows without a doubt that the Eternal One can dwell within our hearts, because I’ve been on the receiving end of loving hearts who I know can only love me like that because of what God has put within them. I wish I had more to give back in return.
Thanks Jon for the inspiration. I about fell off my chair when I realized that you were posting on the evil internet. Anyway, I’m glad you are, it’s great to meet up with you here. I wonder what hymn you’re thinking of most these days? For me it’s 303.
Thanks for Ur posts, Your Sister– U’ve pretty well described the tangible “gamut” of Workers lives and influence. (I would gladly trade my imagination for Ur intelligence but then everyone would wonder what in the world happened to U! 😂) // Well, thing is, we haven’t suffered the severe trauma that a Great Number of our fellows have. Many (1 is too many) Perverts and “Cover-up-ers” have (thankfully) been exposed, with maybe more to come and for the Traumatized, Bereaved and Mama/Papa Bears, it’s “blown-up” the Work as we knew it. The Traumatized, Bereaved and Mama/Papa Bears haven’t “gotten over it”. They may never get over it. I enjoyed talking with a Friend (a happily married middle-aged father) on the phone a few weeks ago– He cracked a joke that made me laugh but described the situation: “Used to be, when the Workers told us they were coming, we only had to hide our TV. Now I’ve got to hide my wife and lock up my kids!” // 303 is a favorite of mine… it’s short, easy to remember and sing. For some reason, 103 will pop into my head frequently lately– as if the Spirit is saying: Ur getting grumpy again and it’s time to run something good thru Ur head! // Yes– I’ve had a cell phone for about 15 years and a smartphone about 10 years. Learned computer skills 4 years ago when a desperate company hired this Old Duffer (at 63 years old). // I hope U can continue Ur “Angel Work” for a good while yet! Hearing from U again has been great! // My email is j.cadeplatte@gmail.com
Glad you were able to find a job!
Just one thing “for the record” – not all of us talk about our own experiences. And I probably have a different take on things based on my own background and experiences. I’ll say something very unpopular here – but a lot of “victims” are simply those that are codependent and expect their coworkers and spouses to do what they need to do to make them happy. This takes away from the true victims. These victims that loudly decry how others treated them – often it’s the ones that they are complaining about that are the true victims. Don’t automatically believe all cries of victim. Shame on those of you who selfishly take up this banner and bring the spotlight to yourselves. The true victims often still haven’t found their voice. Automatically defending every “victim” without learning the other side of the story is in fact slowing the process down.
One thing that we can do for everyone, no matter what, is listen. It’s ok for people to post and be “heard”. Sometimes when we know that people love us and understand us, then we can find quietness in our own spirit and can start to process that it’s ourselves that need to change. And we can start to be willing to get the professional help we truly need.
I’ll give you a fresh example somewhat along the same lines. There’s a man in my field. He faithfully cares for his bedridden mother. His stepfather is a drunk and a parasite. But his mother loves her husband. One day a group of us went to visit this mother, and unknowingly to her son, his mother called up one of the friends coming with us and asked us to give her husband a ride. When we arrived, the son was super upset. He had told everyone not to bring his father ever into the house. But his mother, she loved her husband. One good thing about her husband. He’s not abusive even though he’s a drunk. Anyway, I had a visit with the son, to listen. Then I had to leave for special meeting rounds. Later I come back, and the step father is living in the house with the son and his mother. The son told me, “two men cannot live together if one of them doesn’t change. One man has to change. That’s me. I changed. My mother is happy with him here, and that makes me happy.” Now, he’s asking me to invite his step father to meetings.
Now let me mention this angle I don’t see talked about often – there are more married men than you’d realize that see sister workers as “fair game”. And we stay with them in their homes. I was unprepared for this when I went into the work. I began to realize why sisters dressed quite modestly etc. I won’t share my experiences, it’s not necessary.
Eventually my conclusion is that men have a lot of drive – it’s been that way from the beginning of time. It’s what makes them the bread winners, the warriors, the protectors. Solomon had hundreds of women for his use. Women have power – women have power to turn it on and off as they so desire for their own advantage. And women use it as a weapon against men. It’s easy to vilify men and see the women as innocent, but I saw a different picture. Both are at fault. And when it gets out of balance in a marriage, both become weak and fragile and lose their ability to make wise decisions. It’s not my place to be a marriage counselor. It’s not my place to try to fix their natural problems. Nor did I wish to make public examples out of any of this. So I learned what I needed to do to protect myself and went forward. There are a lot of very respectful men out there who were careful to make sure I always felt safe, and they gained my highest respect. I saw their wives openly loving them and I found it a privilege to be in the presence of such a couple.
By the way, I also had this same experience in my workplace.
I’ll be in touch Jon. Thanks for reaching out. This evening I have 242 on my mind.
“Your Sister”
Perhaps it’s my ignorance, but some of the things you’ve been writing I can’t get my head around. You sound both sympathetic to the pain of those who have posted their experiences, but also seem to say that the things they claim are either “normal misunderstandings” or somehow caused by the one claiming to be the victim. I’m not trying to argue, I’m just genuinely trying to better understand what you said, & what you think is going on within the ministry and if you believe there needs to be changes with the structure to help prevent abuse and cover-ups. I would like to hear your thoughts, feel free to email me, rsricheyauto@gmail.com
Hi Reuben, thanks for your response, I welcome requests for clarification, and I will do so here rather than privately because you’re likely not the only one who is confused by what I write. I didn’t have all of my thoughts organized or anything, I just wrote! 😕
Actually I’m not talking about any one group of people, but a number of different groups and aspects and issues. For the most part I’m sticking strictly to Emotional Abuse within the Work, which was essentially the theme of this post. I think the current situation is really helping deal with systemic Emotional Abuse. And partly that’s because sexual abuse usually is enabled through the bondage of emotional abuse, unless it’s actual rape through physical restraints. But emotional abuse is so subjective. And some of those that cry victim have in fact been quite abusive. Some workers have come out of very dysfunctional and abusive families. Others have been quite sheltered and raised with doting parents and can end up being a bit immature. It’s wonderful when we can support each other but we are in fact just humans too. However, with a little understanding, we can learn to rise above our natural inclinations to feel victimized by others (which is a type of codependency), so that our happiness and peace don’t depend on how anyone else treats us. This isn’t to minimize those that have actually been victims – but rather to build emotional resilience (temperance) for the normal stresses and interactions of life, and so that those who are truly victims can be more easily heard? I hope so.
I also touched on sexual harassment that sisters can be subjected to from those they stay with. I chose never to say anything at all. Is that cover up? I think that was my right if I’m considered the “victim”. After all, it’s not child sexual abuse, and I don’t have any proof that it’s happened with any one else other than me. If it was something I could quickly put an end to, it’s not like I have a lot to accuse. It wasn’t just elders or friends. It was contacts (seriously!), and unprofessing spouses. Not a lot of situations – one or two every year though, that adds up after a while. And like I said, sometimes it’s quite evident that there are some serious marital problems. Is there a better alternative to saying with the friends? I’m not sure.
Also I said that I personally think there are so many wonderful fathers and mothers in this ministry. Maybe I’m biased. 🙂 The word “cover-up” sounds like there is an intent to get away with something that is known to be wrong. But I don’t find that to be the case. I think ill intentions have occurred but in isolated instances rather than systemically. Most of the time, what is perceived to be a coverup is a worker honestly trying to do the right thing but with insufficient facts or understanding. It’s unfortunately a very natural tendency to not believe the victim. I know this personally. And it’s not necessarily men that don’t believe the victim (I see that Ray, Barry and Dale are the scapegoats). It’s women who kind of wish it had been them instead. Seriously. Or else they just can’t find a place in their brain to believe their hero would do something like that, and so obviously it’s the woman to blame. Abusers are so often quite charismatic. Even I realized that I myself had a tendency to not believe a victim. Is that a history of cover up? It is if it continues after all of the knowledge we’ve currently gained in the last few months. If it doesn’t continue, then it’s not a history of coverup, it’s a history of insufficient understanding – and, likely, insufficient sensitivity to the Spirit, because we think we already know the right way to deal with something.
Honestly, this of properly dealing with CSA/SA is a modern phenomenon that’s even now only enforced in certain western (Christian?) countries, and even slavery hasn’t been considered evil for that many years. I’m thankful it’s happening in my day and may we never look back, but rather go forward with the guidance of the Spirit.
Dear sister worker, I wasn’t able to reply to your other post, so I am replying to this one.
You said: “Now let me mention this angle I don’t see talked about often – there are more married men than you’d realize that see sister workers as “fair game”. And we stay with them in their homes. I was unprepared for this when I went into the work. I began to realize why sisters dressed quite modestly etc. I won’t share my experiences, it’s not necessary.”
My heart stopped and I gasped in horror when I read your words, yet you seem unfazed. Why?
I’ve heard similar stories, but didn’t realize that it was that common or that workers are aware of and accepting of the promiscuity of their flock.
My question is: why do you accept this as an inevitable reality in the fellowship?
Do you consider these people to be your brothers in Christ, worthy of speaking in meetings and being associated with within a Christian fellowship? Are they safe to have fellowship with?
What is the power of the Gospel and what is the outcome of workers’ preaching and teaching?
Is spiritual transformation an expected part of salvation?
And what about these men’s wives? What kind of marriages do they have? Are their wives supposed to stay ignorant of or blind to their husbands’ unfaithfulness and promiscuity, and “just fit in”?
Why is all this accepted as normal?
What kind of new professing generation are they raising?
I conclude that sexual immorality is so normalized in the fellowship (through turning a blind eye to it, as well as certain false doctrines), that very few people even flinch at it.
What kind of Christianity is this anyway? Let me assure you that such things are not overlooked or lightly talked about in other churches. There can be no fellowship between light and darkness.
Dear mm, Thank you for asking for clarity instead of making assumptions.
Why is it ok to victim shame if the victims are workers? How are sisters not different than any other victim you know? What ever made you think I was unfazed by it? If I were “unfazed” why would I even mention it? To say abuse is normalized is only when it is a pattern of normalcy for those in power/those who are abusive. For victims, abuse is abuse – it’s never ever ever ever normal. I can’t say that it’s ever felt “normalized” with our brothers or anyone else. Everyone understands it’s wrong before God. Sexual harassment used to be common in the workplace. It seemed pretty normalized until the “me too” movement which wasn’t too long ago. And finally all of the women who have been afraid to speak up finally could have the courage to say something. It was never normal for those women – they just never felt they had the validity to say something and be taken seriously. Is it not the same things with us now? Now that we’re finally finding the courage to say something, you shame us for not speaking out? That makes it easy to retreat back into silence. Is that what would make everything look better?
if I immediately called out the man and told his wife, then it would have been his word against mine. And my companion’s, who may or may not have sided with me, since she was from an even older generation. And if they did believe me then we get to deal with a broken house. And all of the grief and all of the upset from all of the family. I just couldn’t bear it as a new worker – trying to comfort the wife and children and church and who knows who else when I myself actually needed comfort and assurance! You don’t fix things like that and survive. As I got older in the work I learned how to say things clearly at the first hint, and made it clear that if that line was ever crossed again, yes I would have said things. And I will repeat this – sometimes the wife is just as much a part of the problem by the way she treats her husband. She is NEVER responsible for his abuse or harassment of another. But in fact a good marriage can make a big difference.
Most harassers are cowards actually – they don’t want to get called out and if confronted they will retreat. Is that the right thing to do? Should every wrong touch get publicly called out? I’m just not sure. I’m more of a mind that it should be the case when it’s an elder or a friend. But when it’s a contact or a non professing spouse, I don’t feel the same way. My first incident in the work was with a contact who was a spouse of a dear dear friend. It was shortly after I started. We were so thankful that he had started to come to the meetings. But then this. It must be my fault, I must have been too friendly. Now I cannot afford to offend him, clearly he has had a pattern of roaming hands, likely his wife already knows his ways, what do I do? Do I withdraw? Do I pretend it didn’t happen? Do I say something? So I chose to pretend it didn’t happen. I pretended like he didn’t mean to do it even though it was clearly overt. I never acknowledged it, I never changed my friendliness nor demeanor to him, but he never got a second chance to do that. Would I do differently now that I have a better understanding? Oh I don’t know, I don’t know what I would do. When you love the woman dearly and don’t want to hurt her, and you don’t want to make her feel ashamed every time she sees your face… no, I’m sorry. It’s not that easy. And no matter who it is – a victim is a victim – if it’s a sister worker who’s a victim of an elder of a church, she will still have all of the victim baggage to deal with and why should we shame her if she doesn’t have the courage to come forward?
Is it wrong to stay in people’s homes? The above didn’t happen in a home, it happened in a car with his wife and my companion. Workplace harassment doesn’t happen in the home. Homes can actually be a safe place. And yes, I know that men treat me differently based on how I present myself. It’s my protection and shame on me if I don’t use that tool. If I leave my door wide open and a thief enters and takes everything I own – yes, he’s still a thief, but it almost seems I was asking for it to happen. It’s not anyone’s job to rout out potential abusers. We stop the cycle when we stop the abuse from continuing.
Awareness makes all the difference. I think the sisters just starting now will be a lot better equipped to handle situations like this than I ever was. These last several months have been a tremendous help to equalize power in the ministry. Should women be overseers? I think very few workers would agree that that is an answer. Already there are sisters that hold positions of great “power” and it’s not healthy for anyone. We’re just “made” differently. We’re mothers and sisters. We’re emotional creatures. It’s not necessarily good material for oversight. I don’t think we need to change anything – let’s see how this goes now that we’re equipped with all of this new understanding and empowerment. And I don’t think I’m alone when I breathe a sigh of relief that those who felt creepy have been asked to leave – even if we were never on the receiving end of the abuse, often there was something about them that just didn’t set well. Now we clearly understand why. The cleansing is never easy, but it has brought a sense of comfort that God is still with us and still in control. This problem will never completely be eradicated until humanity is finished because of the nature of a man and the nature of a woman. But accountability can help keep it in check when the Spirit is not allowed free reign in someone’s life.
Hopefully this helps you reconsider your conclusion, mm. One thing I know, I’m really thankful for hymn 75 right now.
Dear mm, I realize I didn’t even have the decency to answer your questions. My apologies! I don’t know that I can answer satisfactorily, but I’ll just answer for myself the best I can. Below I’ve copied your questions for my reference:
–
“I’ve heard similar stories, but didn’t realize that it was that common or that workers are aware of and accepting of the promiscuity of their flock.”
–
I’m rather at a loss for words that you came to the conclusion from what I wrote that there is an acceptance of the promiscuity of our flock. Because I as a victim was scared to speak out (in fact, what you’re quoting is the very first time I’ve ever talked about it), does that mean I accepted it? This is exactly the kind of treatment of victims that the worker oversight are being accused of. Some how it’s the victim at fault. Please please reconsider your thinking on this.
There is no acceptance at all. I would rather call it a bit “shocking”. When there’s a couple that you have really appreciated and they seem to be such pillars in the kingdom – they have a meeting in their home and they do so much for everyone and the workers and the conventions, and you admire them so much – and then you go into the work and you’re in their home and you’re so happy to be in their home and you feel totally safe and at ease with them – and then, the man tries to do something to you, it’s just like, unreal. There is nothing that prepares you for this experience. You just don’t even know what to do – you know their reputation, you can’t believe what is happening to you by this very “perfect” person. How do you find your voice? I haven’t intended to even say anything, it’s been well over 20 years for some of these incidents.
–
“My question is: why do you accept this as an inevitable reality in the fellowship?”
–
I don’t. Rather, I have learned to accept it as an inevitable reality of humankind. This kind of stuff is as old as creation. I’ll use Kind David as a worn out example. He was a Godly man. But he failed. And he didn’t get away with it. He bore the consequences of it for the rest of his life. But God didn’t take His Holy Spirit from him that we read of – if He did, it was just for a time. David was a man who made a mistake. God’s children are God’s children. If they sin, they are still God’s children, but God will deal with the sin – mercy does not mean a removal of the consequences of our sin. Likewise, sin does not mean spiritual death, unless we don’t deal with it.
–
“Do you consider these people to be your brothers in Christ, worthy of speaking in meetings and being associated with within a Christian fellowship?”
–
Likely you understand that many in the fellowship have come from very bad situations, and while the gospel has the power to change people and give them strength to overcome the weaknesses of the flesh, it’s like a seed. It takes time. We see a lot of stuff. We seek to stand by people as they grow. Perfection is for heaven. That’s our aim.
I know that sexual harassment is right now up at the top for sins. But there’s a lot of other stuff too. If a man is handsy one time – should it be lights out for him? What about emotional abuse? To be honest, I place that as a bigger problem. Children sometimes choose to endure CSA if it means a lessening of emotional abuse. It’s the same with adults. Likewise, if a wife is emotionally abusive to her husband, is it ok that she gets away with it? She comes across as being the victim. I don’t think that’s right. This is in no way a defense of the man (I’m using typical stereotypes here of the male abuser and female victim, but any scenario is possible of course). Maybe his ways “caused” her to be that way. Maybe her ways “caused” him to be that way. But before God each one will give account of themselves.
The meetings are not intended to be for the “worthy”. Of course I know that not everyone who goes to meeting and takes part is doing right by God. Time will reveal if they’re struggling and seeking to overcome, or if they have no intention of changing.
One of the things we “2x2ers” are accused of is deciding who is saved and who isn’t. Maybe it was the case in the past. There are things that people do that the Bible makes it clear are not in line with the Will of God. If people aren’t causing a nuisance in the meeting itself, usually the meeting is one of the safer places people can be. What people share in the meeting shouldn’t be preaching as if they are the ones in the know – nobody listens to it anyway. For most of us the fellowship meetings are a combination of something that’s fed us, a confession and a desire for the future. I think that this is safe enough from anyone. This would be similar to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings which are a place to help people find strength to overcome through the help of others in a similar state.
–
“Are they safe to have fellowship with?”
–
Good question. Actually, the meetings themselves are not usually the issue. Look at Dean Bruer for an example. He never said anything in a meeting that I know of that raised red flags (there were things he said outside of meetings that were, strangely harsh, but not in the meetings). Especially for those raised going to the meetings – they know how to share a thought that won’t raise eyebrows. That’s not to their credit. But it does mean that the fellowship meetings are not going to be so negatively affected – if – people understand what they are doing is not right before God. Because they will try to hide it. They may not have much depth of bread to share, but it won’t be off key regarding the Bible. However, if at some point they decide what they are doing is accepted by God, that’s when eyebrows start raising. Even children stop playing and look up and listen with surprise. But otherwise, the meetings have always been a motley crew of people at various stages.
Fellowship outside of meetings? I think that we have all learned the need to have our eyes wide open for potential issues, no matter who it is.
I believe that if people are living a double life and have no intentions of trying to change that, and nobody (other than the victim if there is one) has become aware of it, God will step in. Especially if they do anything to hurt His little ones. I know that it might seem like God does nothing – sometimes it takes years. But nobody gets away with anything.
As an aside, I’ve pondered this of God’s timing with interest. It’s an interesting study. Like, the Amorites. God already knew they were evil. He knew their course – He knew the damage they would do in the process. But He would not eradicate them before their iniquity was “full”. Which He already knew would be hundreds of years later. It’s an interesting thought. The damage others do to us or others on this earth. It’s not right. But God does allow it to happen. We have accounts of many victims and so we know it is the case. We may end this life with many scars. But with our soul and spirit in tact. That’s the part God preserves. He didn’t spare His own Son. And He’ll give us a new body like He did Jesus. Do we really believe that? The Spirit of God within us can be our Comforter and that can strengthen our faith to believe in the perfect eternal future.
–
“What is the power of the Gospel and what is the outcome of workers’ preaching and teaching?”
–
The workers sow the seed. The condition of the heart of the one listening determines the power the Gospel can have in their life.
I think the parable of the sower and the seed and similar parables in Matthew 13 make it clear that we can’t always know the condition of heart of the listener based on their response to the seed. Time reveals it. A good and honest heart will bear fruit for the long haul. If a soul is struggling but has a desire to overcome and do right and they are honest about their situation, I believe in the power of the Gospel to give them the help that they need. In fact, I’ve given my life to the work for that very thing.
–
“Is spiritual transformation an expected part of salvation?”
–
Can you please give me a little bit more understanding of this question if I don’t answer satisfactorily? We are to be born again of God’s Spirit. That’s a big transformation for sure. But yes, what I think you’re getting at, is this that the Spirit within us can clearly give us the power to overcome what we are by nature.
I think many of the problems we are currently dealing with are issues that have happened well AFTER the spiritual transformation! When people have been rocking along going to meetings for a number of years, perhaps all of their life. The thrill of serving God is long over. Now it’s mundane. And they start to get careless and looking for a little diversion, a little relief, which if not corrected can ultimately be deadly for the soul even if it’s kept hidden for a long time.
–
“And what about these men’s wives?”
–
The woman I described in my previous letter, the wife of our contact, she was a dear lady, and surely she was aware of her husband’s pandering nature. At first I was so shocked. But the more I was around him, I saw he didn’t have a whole lot of brakes on his human nature. A health scare got him going to meetings, otherwise I don’t know if he’d ever have gone. But sure, what about the wife? I agree! It’s agonizing for the victim. Does she wreck the marriage? Or does she just keep quiet? Will she be blamed? Who will believe her? Who does she first tell? So the easiest is to just swallow it and try to pretend it didn’t happen. Because the shame the victim will have to bear is usually worse than the transgression, even though she’s completely innocent.
–
“What kind of marriages do they have?”
–
Usually good in public, terrible in private
–
“Are their wives supposed to stay ignorant of or blind to their husbands’ unfaithfulness and promiscuity, and “just fit in”?”
–
This just isn’t fair. You’re treating the victim as a mistress rather than the victim that she is. It’s not the victim’s responsibility to protect the wife. Who’s protecting the victim? The wife certainly won’t, I can tell you that. I can’t imagine that a sister worker who has been victimized by a man would then go to the man’s wife and tell her that she just needs to stay and endure her husband’s ways, which ironically means that the sister would also have to endure the man’s ways.
There is an edge of bitterness to what you’re writing here. As if it’s hitting close to home. I’m sorry if you have endured any of this. I know it has been the case in the past where workers have suggested to wives to just submit to their abusive husbands and stay with them, and then referenced a time or two that the man eventually professed and they had a fairytale romance after that. In the distant past, in the Bible days even, if a woman left her man, she was often quite destitute, nobody would want her, and even shunned by her own family. So all of that was of greater pain than just enduring an abusive husband. But these days are different. A woman can make it on her own. But what sadly ends up happening for those that are already grandparents is that they stick together just because it’s easier and “looks better”, but their quality of marriage is zero and they end up living separate lives. Nowadays marriages also end for much lesser reasons than unfaithfulness. Sometimes they just get too busy or bored. It doesn’t matter what side of the divorce and remarriage issue people are on – Marriage is sacred and should be treated as such. But that doesn’t mean a spouse has to endure abuse or unfaithfulness. If they choose to stay anyway, that’s between them and God..
–
“Why is all this accepted as normal?”
–
This was your conclusion, but it’s not accurate, hopefully already addressed.
–
“What kind of new professing generation are they raising?”
_
I’m kind of lost on this question. This is what grandpa said when the workers didn’t have on a tie. Do you want to go back to the old ways? I think most of us are ready to move on. I think it’s pretty clear that everyone’s ready for things to be dealt with. But all I ask is that you have mercy on the victims even if they are workers.
As I touched on regarding fellowship outside of meetings – I think the workers have been empowered to speak up and call things out. I think now we won’t be as caught unawares as we have been in past days when things weren’t talked about. I don’t think victims will have to feel that they will bear the shame of the abuse. It will take a while for all of this to happen, but I’m so thankful for these long overdue changes and I pray for all victims that there can be true healing and comfort. Sorry to have written so much – it’s hard to know how to answer and as a result I try every which angle 😕 please have patience with my poor attempts at answering.
This is truly horrific
I know personally, over 10 workers that have had very similar experiences. May God help us know how to move forward to stop this abuse. To use our voices is a start and may we never stop talking and sharing until we know the way forward.
I know of over 10 workers personally that have very similar stories. So sad. We need to keep using our voices and keep communicating with each other until we know the way forward. Jesus never used emotional abuse to control anyone. God does not want to have Power over us but He so willingly gives us power inside to walk with Him.
We feel a spirit of arrogance and spirit of dominance a desire to have power over us and this is very unfortunate that this has crept in amongst many of the workers.
How do we know which workers are called into the work and which ones “volunteered”. This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to hear some points.
I definitely can name a few who have always wanted to be in the work. Why anybody would desire such a thing frightens me. Many of them are out of the work now. It’s obvious to me why some volunteered, clearly they are gay/lesbian and wouldn’t have a place in this fellowship if they lived out their sexual preferences because we all know God hates gays and lesbians (oh wait no he hates when you’re gay or lesbian and “act it out” – so I’ve been learned and told) so it’s not a sin to be gay. It’s a sin to practice gay. (Put that in the rule book that Jesus never said but we say it so that this church still stands on its one leg). Many of the workers today have zero skills, let alone people skills and wouldn’t have what it takes to make it in the real world. (So gracious of our Lord above to call THOSE odd souls into the work so we can house them and feed them so they can sit in awkward silence while we ask them question after question and feel the most uncomfortable we’ve ever felt in our entire existence.) Some of these workers I wouldn’t trust for a second if I turned my back for a second around my children. (Which was later proven to be true about CSA allegations on so many perverts).
So which ones are called? Surely, you can’t be called by God if he knows there is pedophilia in your heart. Surely, you can’t be called my God if he knows there is a chance you could have an affair with an elders wife while he’s away at work? Surely, you can’t be called by God to be an overseer for decades when you had a value customer account at a best western to rape/molest women and children, have affairs with sister workers and hire prostitutes. But then again, maybe you can. Because after all, like we heard, David was an adulterer and “God never removed him!” Such an awesome point. Now that should give us all motivation to do heinous acts and crimes against humanity because God may not intervene. God dropped the Oppenheimer on sodom and Gomorrah. He never really singled individuals out. He spanked Eves Fanny cherry red for eating the fruit when he specifically asked her not to and she still tried to blame Adam! Women! Ugh! I digress.
The point is…wouldn’t all of this make way more sense with what’s going on in this church if God wasn’t actually watching? Who do we think we are? How many places can God be at once? Wouldn’t it make more sense that he trusts people, HIS people (that we so often hear we are) to figure all of this out on our own? He let Dean Bruer have his free will for countless years. So we have free will? We do. Yes. We have free will to step in whenever we want. Whenever. I see so many people say, “I just want to wait to see Gods plan”. You know all that means is “I’m not doing a thing, I just want to see what naturally happens”. Rarely, does anything great just accidentally happen. Doing nothing is what allowed Dean and many others to do what they wanted, everything. God isn’t going to intervene. This we know. We know this because we all have different ideas of what that would look like. Some are praying the ministry would go away. Some are praying this whole thing goes away and goes back to the way it was. Some are praying that Jesus would return. It doesn’t matter what YOU pray. God already knows. One prayer will change the trajectory of humanity and Gods plan for all 8 billion people currently on earth? He doesn’t need our input. He knows. He isn’t waiting for one person to pray for what he already knows. Who are you to think you will change his mind? Change your own mind. Change your situation. This church will not be changed. Overseers will not step down. They are prideful, accidental narcissists because they think God put them there. They won’t listen to the people. This isn’t democracy. It’s divine intervention. This is their flock. They will lead it. This is why people leave. They are smart. They woke up. They didn’t get struck by lightning when they left. They are at peace. Jesus didn’t start this church. Man did. As soon as Jesus died, the Catholic Church started. We are an offshoot of the Catholic Church (gasp!) we came from Ireland! That countries national sport is Catholicism and boxing. One, two! No pun intended. Our workers are the same as nuns, maybe even worse dressers than the nuns. Good thing for the men they can blend into society so easily. Unfortunately, our sisters have to wear potato sacks (that they brought over from Ireland). I’m afraid when Jesus returns he’ll only recognize the women of the faith (not because of their buns and denim, but because of their spirit). He definitely won’t find us in the movie theater when he returns. Because he ain’t looking there! He definitely won’t find us if we have radios in our home! He’s not visiting any homes with radios! He won’t find us at the ballgame! He’s not visiting any ballgames! He will only find us if we’re sitting at our bed praying. I for one sure hope it’s nighttime because that’s when I’ll most likely be praying. Or when I’m giving thanks for my hot dog and potato chips that he provided me with.
Come on, “You would never”, what do you hope to achieve with this rude diatribe? There are some valid points here, but they get lost amid the free-form sarcasm, which seems especially cowardly and self-serving when it’s posted anonymously.
I feel compelled to push back on the “zero skills” comment in your first paragraph. Any of us who has been around for a few decades knows that there are remarkably competent, and sometimes remarkably INcompetent, people in our own workplaces, community groups, schools, families, etc, etc, and indeed in the work, too, like in any human group.
Personally I have often been amazed and grateful at the graciousness of workers who could well have chosen other paths in life, even other paths that would have been productive, socially valuable and/or financially lucrative, and more in line with their own interests. Of course we all have our quirks, but some of us get to choose lifestyles that suit our quirks (I mean our personal preferences and personalities, not criminal tendencies), whereas workers don’t get as much choice. Again, I have been amazed at the grace and patience and love shown by many workers even while living in a way that they wouldn’t have chosen by personal preference.
Obviously here I am not talking about abusers and criminals. If someone in any line of work behaves in an abusive or criminal manner, or covers up abusive and criminal behavior, we all should feel responsible to report them to the proper authorities (police and legal authorities, not our fellowship’s workers). If this had been done years ago, our fellowship wouldn’t be in its current mess.
For less serious cases, we all should work toward having enough spiritual maturity to “try the spirits” and handle situations appropriately.
Okay “observer”. And you’re not cowardly by not posting your name?
I’ve officially had enough! God changed the languages once when the people tried to build a tower to heaven! I now call on God to change all of our languages again! So we can’t understand each other! This is getting out of hand! We’re building a tower again! But this time…straight to hell! A downward tower!
Who’s with me!?
I’m also calling on God to stop space rockets going to space! These are getting way closer to the invisible heaven than the Tower of Babel ever did! Shut Elon Musk down now! …and change our languages! I’ll be checking back in an hour or so to see if I still understand English. We’ll never understand our old hymn books “old and new” it will now be called “older old and new”. I’ll be selling copies for a lot of money. Not to earn a profit or anything but just for the good of the gospel. Trust me. It’s fine.
Wow. To your first question, no one should be brought in to the ministry without having been called by God. We can clearly see the destruction these people have caused, because they didn’t know what it was to trust God, and allow God to lead them.
Clearly you have lost your faith, I’m sorry for that. These issues are huge, and as you point out, are definitely because other issues were not clearly dealt with…so, since it’s not being dealt with (swept under the rug), then that makes for the perfect breeding ground for even worse and more “in your face” bad behaviour and decisions. The USA is the country that many other countries look to, even on a natural level to set good standards, and we have failed even them!
By the way, Jesus and God see every soul, no matter where they are, and loves them. They may not like what they SEE, but in their patience keep working with us, and in God’s mercy He’s giving us time, to make things right! Don’t give up! Prayer and action DO help, and as we (my husband and I) have recently been reminded in Judges, God doesn’t fix things right away. Those people tried more than once before God helped them, and there was victory! How desperate are you to want His help in your life? Sure, he can SEE what needs to be done, but if we aren’t seeking and knocking and asking…there won’t be a response…ever. Someone asked me a few years back “Why won’t the West send help, when we desperately need it?” My response, “Are you praying to God for help, or just expecting help to come from other men, who you think have some crazy intuition?” Don’t give up on Prayers, I’ve witnessed many miracles and answered prayers!
A very interesting experiment would be to calculate what the retention rate is for ‘workers’ in the ministry. For example, what percentage of male or female workers make it to 5 years tenure or 10 years tenure or 20 years tenure, etc. I am willing to bet that the retention rate hasn’t been that good, and more importantly the retention rate has been decreasing rapidly every decade.
These figures can be compared to retention rates in other ministries such as the Roman Catholic Church for priest and for nuns. Low retention rates mean that there is serious problems in the ministry, even if people don’t talk about it.
“Your Sister,”
Thank you so much for your thoughtful, honest and vulnerable posts. I am one of probably hundreds, maybe thousands, who are reading what you wrote and learning things we never understood before about human beings and about God. Your posts have made me feel gently corrected and are helping me to understand His plan better. I have also basked in the soft glow of the love and humility that Jon Platte showed in his post with you here. Thanks to both of you for keeping your discussion in this public forum so we can all benefit from it.
Hi “Anonymous”. Hopefully “Your Sister” sees Ur nice comment/feedback. She’s pretty amazing. This platform helps my faith a little too if I’m careful. I know Satan wants Us to be all “soured-up” = He doesn’t have anything good and doesn’t want Us to have anything good either. Somehow God makes Us with different capacities/gifts. “Your Sister” obviously reads human behaviors quickly and is able to share something helpful later to others. If we grow up in “Egypt”, we chose our friends. If we decide to live the Gospel life, the Lord chooses our friends for us and He is soooo much better at it! “Your Sister” was a very virtuous/fun prep crew member. 😇 🥳Others, as I remember, not-quite so much. 🫡🤨😡🤐🥱 (Ah well, that’s the way we were!) Cheerio!
Thank you brother, you’ve packed on the compliments, I’m not sure who you’re actually talking about but anyway I appreciate the kindness. You always were kind. And pretty handy with a hammer. Just don’t lose your glasses in the trash bin.
You’re exactly right regarding the Lord choosing our friends for us. We tend to choose our friends that support what we already believe to be right (or at least the thing we want others to think as right). But the Lord chooses friends for us that help us to truly BE right and to grow in a healthy way.
Dear Anonymous, I did not even see your post. It’s really really hard to read most of the comments here, and I wonder, what did I do to let people down so much, to give them this view on the ministry? It can be really discouraging. So I’m really glad I happened to see your post. Thank you for your kind encouragement. We are all learning a lot these days. I’m one of those that found this web site the perfectly wrong place to get my information, and all of the comments just made me feel so discouraged and upset. But in fact I’m learning to have compassion and more understanding of those who have lost their faith in the ministry and sometimes God Himself. I myself struggle every day to believe that God is a being and that there is good and evil and light and dark and it all sounds like a made up fairy tale. Except – there is power in it. And all of the fairy tales are simply trying to recreate it. And what a privilege we have to be a part of His great plan of salvation. Keep encouraged, keep learning. Know that we love you dearly even if we don’t always know how to show it. And I pray for those that have lost their faith in us, that we can show that we are truly led by God and by love and through the example of the righteous compassionate lowly Son of God who died for us so that we could have a natural glimpse into eternal divine love.
Dear Sis, If only there were more workers like you, with a tender heart for God’s flock. It seems that there are workers, sisters especially in my own 50+ years of experience, that seem to get pleaseure in ruling with the whip, trying to keep the sheep ‘in line’ but lacking compassion, care and understanding.
Your statement of “what a privilege we have to be a part of His great plan of salvation” is very offensive to us that have suffered CSA/SA abuse from your leadership and staff and members. You pile on in referring to us as “those who have lost their faith in the ministry and sometimes God Himself”. Please stop this chatter and maybe take your conversation with Jon Platte elsewhere. You and him can use the platform at convention for that stuff.
Max, I am very sorry for any abuse you have suffered. Many of us have, and it us inexcusable and terrible!
We all appreciate wings as a place of information and also makibg comments on the proffered letters etc. Silencing other people that you know nothing about doesn’t do anyone any good.
There are other places you can go, like the closed group on AFTT if you need a place where there are only victims. This is a forum that is open for all people.
So maybe you should stop reading the posts on the comments of Wings if you find them so offensive and triggering. It would probably be best for your mental health if you took a break from reading these comments and posting your own, as you are coming across very negatively, and it is hard for anyone to take you seriously.
To the wings moderators, if these comments are to only be for and by abused people, you should make that clear, but as I understand it, you have made this open for everyone. I really appreciate that. Thank you.
Comments here are for the public. They are mainly moderated for civility and relevance.
Dear Mary Lou, I hear you. I also had similar experiences even as a child “in my own 50+ years of experience”. Women are mothers – we run a house, we raise up children. And as a result of our mothering nature, we can have a tendency to get bossy to everyone. And add daily changing emotional states on top of that. 🤪😂🥹🤯😟🥳😱😭
Things have changed drastically in the sisterhood in the last 20 years. In fact at this point I think that most would just feel they are giving their suggestions (even though it comes across strongly to you) rather than demanding perfect obedience. If there is something you disagree with or simply question, bring it up. We need this. And I think you’ll see that even the most stern acting sister (and brother!) will listen to what you are saying, and will concede when they’ve overstepped their bounds and/or said something that wasn’t very good sense. I can’t think of one sister who doesn’t want the best for the friends, even if it comes across otherwise and even if she’s missed the mark in understanding what is truly the appropriate thing to do. I honestly think sisters thought they were supposed to run the show and if they didn’t they weren’t doing their job. But there isn’t that feeling anymore and it’s a burden lifted. Our overseers (and many of the workers actually) often reiterate this in the workers’ meetings – II Cor 1:24 – Not that we domineer over your faith, but we are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm. (NASB)
Younger companions can learn to do the same – I mentioned in my first comment about a very special companion who taught me not to be codependent. The older ones are expected to help the younger ones learn the ropes, but having responsibility is an administrative role, not a controlling role. My happiness as a younger companion changed drastically when I realized I didn’t have to cower to my coworker’s every whim. And I want my younger companion to do the same. Of course, when it comes to the schedule, we need to be on the same page, but when we work together, two minds always excel over one.
One thing that takes a while to realize is that when we casually give our opinions and just talk – people are often taking what we say as commandments. I’ve had to back track on a number of things like this before I learned that having my foot in my mouth didn’t taste too good.
Another thing I had to learn is how to respectfully bring up something I disagreed with, so that I could gain my coworkers’ attention and also keep them from getting defensive because then they can’t hear anything I say. And I can say for myself that it’s much easier to “hear” someone who I feel loves and appreciates me rather than someone who is demanding I see things their way. Some of this I learned in business seminars before the work! To first mention the things that you agree with, and then mention the things you disagree with. If you do this, I think you’ll find that most workers are very thankful you were willing to bring something to their attention.
Being guided by the Spirit does not give us better administrative skills. Rather, it helps us have a right spirit in how we act and react, so that our behavior and actions are representative of Jesus. In other words, my patience in another’s poor scheduling skills is more of a guidance of the Spirit than expecting that the other will have better scheduling skills because they have the Spirit.
I wish those that are wanting sisters to be overseers would be thinking realistically! Most overseers already understand the need to get the insight of the sisters, and employ other brothers to help them to have more than two sets of eyes. I say most, but I don’t believe there is even one overseer who acts alone. A few who have abused their place badly have given a bad reputation to all. But in fact we really need overseers. If we didn’t have overseers we would have so much extra administrative work to deal with. Every organization needs a little hierarchy for practical operation. We might not be officially an “organized religion” by those that decide what constitutes an organized religion. But we do thrive on order. We submit by choice, for the sake of order.
Max, I’m sorry for your hurt and I’m sorry for what your family has experienced that has given you such a bad taste for this fellowship. I hope that you can find healing and if posting on this site helps you, I’m glad for that.
I just want to clarify that when I stated “what a privilege we have to be a part of His great plan of salvation”, I was in NO way referring to the meetings, the workers, or anything else man has his hands on. I was simply meaning that God has created humankind and as a part of humankind, we have a privilege to be a part of His plan. If you even struggle to believe in a God anymore, I understand that as well – I do too. But I do hope that you and your family can find the comfort that you so desperately need, that all of us need.
As one that was molested by a senior worker while in my teens and my wife being molested by a favored professing man while in her teens and me being on anti-depressants with suicidal thoughts for decades and my wife not being able to tell a soul about her creep for decades and suffers from PTSD and severe anxiety, do not really need suggestions from any nonprofessionals regarding our mental health. All thanks to the group. Not forcing anybody to read my comments.
I am truly sorry, Max. I wish I could give you and your wife some comfort.
You are important and your voice is important.
You know best what you need. We support you in that.
TRT – thanks. CSA/SA is a extremely serious issue and causes different reactions for each individual who was harmed by this evil. Thought my wife and me were one-offs until the darkness was exposed with the Dean Bruer coverage and all the evil that had come to the surface in recent months. If I come across as negative, that is correct regarding the group and the evil that was allowed and covered up for decades. Even now, the overseer apology letters give scant consideration to the legions of souls damaged beyond repair for their “boys will be boys” attitude. It makes me physically sick.
My wife and I have recovered better than most but cannot go inside a church. When my wife sees an Amish or Faith Mission or
Mennonite lady she gets chills up and down her spine and needs to walk in the opposite direction due to their likeness in dress to group members. That being said, we are closer to God than at any point in our lives and very much look forward to the return of Jesus. If we go before that time, our last breath on this earth will be our first breath in heaven. Either way, both will be wonderful events. One cannot lose with God.
Stop asking the workers for permission on anything. They have no power over you. As soon as you ask them anything they assume they have authority over you. I’m not putting up with any crap anymore. I’ve seen friends of mine who are in the work now have complete different personalities now that they’re in the work. It’s obvious to me they’ve been abused by some of the older workers who love authority. I’ve had my suspicions of many and know for a fact now after reading these accounts that there is a serious mental abuse issue in the work. So many competitive spirits seeking a “promotion” within. You’re pathetic and you know who you are. You’re the same type to stay away from websites like these because they “aren’t of the spirit”.
As far as I’ve been aware, nothing on this website has been a lie. Even if there were a few misses, I’d say it’s about 90 percent accurate. Just because this place reveals the ugly TRUTH doesn’t make it wicked. This has turned the light on and exposed the cockroaches. Wicked things hate the light. Isn’t that somewhere in the Bible?…what happens when you turn the light on? Cockroaches run and find darkness again. Like so many of you. We’ll find you. That’s a fact.
Availability for open homes for the workers have shrunk. The staff is shrinking. Saints are shrinking. Y’all want to just continue gospel meetings and keep the merry go round moving. Once again, stunned by the “men” in this work and overseer-ship who lack the stones and manhood to take care of things.
If you just took absolute accountability for all the wrong. I’m not saying it’s all your fault or ANY of your fault, but if you make it your complete responsibility you’ll only gain more respect. The right thing and the hard thing to do are often the same thing.
Lazarus Drop- I appreciated most of your post!
This whole thing is crazy, how could one allow little men to have such control over oneself and your family, yet you don’t have to give them that control/authority over you, you choose to?
I believe its because the friends have put the workers on a pedastal because they were supposedly a continues line straight from the last apostle, they were supposedly the only ones that had the key to heaven, not just Christ, oh no, its the 2×2 ministry+Christ=salvation, sorry folks but thats a different gospel, which aint no Gospel at all!
Dear Louise, The friends put the workers on a pedestal….or, did the workers climb up there themselves? It is the workers who have preached, since early William Irvine days, all other Christian denominations are wrong and their “way” is the only scriptural way. Thus, salvation only comes by hearing the Word of God through their own lips. This is called the “Living Witness” doctrine. And yes, this is not the Gospel at all. It is no wonder we are seeing such abuse coming from this arrogant group.
Agree with you In Prayer, yes I also think they climbed up on the pedastal themselves but the friends are keeping them there, this whole spectacle should bring them down to ground level for many, there will always be those that don’t want to hear anything negative about them.
The reason that such abusive ‘Workers’ can have such incredible control over the ‘Friends’ is because of a combination of 2×2 theology and the organizational structure. First, the 2×2 theology says that only if you attend meetings do you have a chance at going to heaven. Regardless if this is official theology or not, it is almost a ubiquitous belief. So the ‘Friends’ will not do anything which might jeopardize their ability to go to meetings. Secondly, the ‘Workers’ control who is an ‘Elder’, and thus ‘Workers’ can control who an ‘Elder’ allows into his private-property home for meeting. So if a ‘Friend’ gets offside with a ‘Worker’, that ‘Worker’ can very quickly stop that ‘Friend’ from attending meetings and/or convention because those are on private-property controlled by men who are ultimately controlled by ‘Workers’. If an ‘Elder’ thinks he can buck a ‘Worker’, the ‘Worker’ will remove the meeting from his home and give it to someone else. Very few ‘Elders’ are willing to take the humiliation of this, and will quickly get back in line. The control structure of the 2×2 system is despotic in type.
If this ministry was led by God, you would still have found these atrocities but at a MUCH lower incidence, there would have been consequences for sins and these atrocities, consistently practised all over the world, potential perputrators would have left the work and fellowship since they would have known that these people fear God and don’t hesitate to deal out consequences for sins and atrocities, they would have shivered in their panths not daring to do any atrocities or immoralities in this God fearing group of men and women!Wow, then you would not have seen this public spectacle of the “only way”.
People would have had respect for these people!
It is SO clear that this is NOT a God led ministry, show me one overseer/ head worker that have dealt with these atrocities according to God’s Word, the laws of the country and within moral values? I have NO respect for this dispicable ministry!
Max, thank you for the uplifting note, “we are closer to God than at any point in our lives and very much look forward to the return of Jesus. If we go before that time, our last breath on this earth will be our first breath in heaven. Either way, both will be wonderful events. One cannot lose with God”. It’s obvious you’re no longer a 2 x 2 member. You now know you will ALWAYS be with God, both here on earth and forever. For you, eternity has already begun. Your old self, as a ” group member “, you would have been condemned and made to feel you had to EARN your salvation through works, dress and other burdensome customs. Jesus brought us salvation on the cross, and ONLY through Him can we have salvation. Glad you and your wife found your freedom and peace that ONLY our Lord Jesus can provide!
I will support the victims in anyway possible but this whole thing is eating at my faith, I have decided to stop reading here, there is nothing I can do but pray, I am not part of this fellowship and most likely never will be.
I have heared enough, I whish I could waive a magical wand and make it all better….
Louise, I understand. I have been sick last night and today over the most recent posts. Yet, I hate to see you leave. Your comments were much appreciated. Godspeed on your journey. May you be blessed by our loving God. I will see you on the other shore.
Thanks In Prayer, I appreciated your input aswell🌷So appreciate that we are not alone in our feelings regarding this, the majority of mankind I believe feels the same, its just the feeling of being powerless to prevent this from happening in the first place.
May God richly bless you aswell untill we meet on the other shore💕
Aww Louise I will miss you but I know how you feel, it seems so hopeless.
There are things that can be done but we need more on board.
Do not lose your faith in God , that’s what the enemy would like, he doesn’t care how he gets us as long as he does.
God will see us through if we trust Him, for sure, maybe take a break Louise , and come back.
Sending you love and you will definitely be in my prayers
A big hug💞💞💞
Louise – Godspeed. Do not blame you one bit. What has/is being uncovered in the group gets worse as the days drag on. Looking forward to seeing you on the other side of the Rainbow Bridge. Praying each day that Jesus will return ASAP and end the evil in this world and in the group.
Thanks No confidence, I appreciate your encouragement🌷so glad that we know we are not alone when it comes to these heart ache feelings, I whish Jesus was here, I would pour my heart out to Him….yes I know He lives within but it’s just different…
I will hang on to your words “God will see us through if we trust Him, for sure….”
Thanks for your prayers aswell🌷I will keep us all in prayer too🌷
Agapé🌷💙🌷