Dear Ray and Barry,
In regards to the plethora of information coming to light about the mishandling of CSA/SA cases I feel compelled to write again. When a meaningful and sustainable policy has been put in place to prevent tragedy in this arena let’s have some further conversation about bullying and other forms of abuse that heavily contribute to the former.
Jack Mulkey often told us about the person who was asked “How long have you been in the Lord’s WAY”. The answer of course was “way too much and far too often”. In retrospect I’ve been guilty of this and realize my clumsiness in handling God’s work has been grievous. I understand not wanting to be rash or getting ahead of God. I know the feeling of people looking to you for leadership and being overwhelmed by the questions and not having answers. I know how hard it is to maintain an image of perfection and control, trying to keep “the box” together when it is completely falling apart because of the sand that it is.
I say this respectfully… would you ever consider that God is responsible for dissolving the box? Not allegations, not history, not cover ups, not mistakes that were made, not Dean B. Not CSA/SA, not ignorance. These are all simple tools. God is using the many voices of the unheard and abused to expose the sand that we have built on?
What if the time has actually come to dissolve the ministry, especially the current structure of overseership? This may be my own opinion but are you open to the Spirit’s direction here? How has strong oversight been helpful? Logistics? Unity? Honestly? Listening? Trust? Safety? Many of us know the feeling of hearing the story and afterwards Nathaniel says “You are the man”!
Something to ponder… mental instability and mental problems very often lack pathology. Meaning these problems stem from trauma and not being heard more often than something physically wrong with the brain. When we judge people to have mental health problems let’s ask how I have contributed to this. Listen, forego power and control then see how changes occur in one’s mental health status! Being a “Mental Health Professional” is not so difficult. Jesus was the greatest Authority on Mental Health this world has ever seen!
Can anything be done to undo what has been done? None of us have lived long in this world before we see many things we wish had been done differently. An apology comes to mind. Not the kind my kids say to each other when they are forced to. Not the kind that is guarded or accompanied with excuses. The kind that comes with self-exploration and from the heart.
This crisis isn’t a distraction from the “Gospel work”. The listening, connecting, self-examination and heart-felt. “I’m sorry” which can lead to healing… IS the “Gospel Work”!
Sincerely,
Rolland Sarver
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Powerful, eloquent, from the heart. Thank you for voicing the thought that’s in so many minds….
Rolland,
You have published your letter half written!
You got the first half “the time has actually come to dissolve the ministry,”
The missing second half is…… then what!……. Are you more a demolition man than a builder? Hope not!
If the missing second half of your letter is going to be worth reading then it will be scripture based.
The New Testament ministry was established with Jesus calling the twelve. They completed their short term commission amongst the Jews. Then the Lord Jesus specifically got the eleven together on the mount in Galilee and gave them the commission that will be current one until he comes again.
“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
unless the missing second half of your letter is built on these words of the Lord Jesus you will be the one building on the sand.
Maybe the end is closer than we think.
What man has built, and that is what we have here, needs to come down. I commend someone willing to not “have a plan”… we don’t need one… anything we try to plan at this point is just tainted by what has been…. rebirth is needed, not repair!
When Jesus was resurrected, he told them ‘what’ to do, and not ‘how’ to do it. The “how” (rules/laws) was for the Jews; not for us. We’re not Jews.
Our new foundation should be on Love. ‘Love’ (Jesus) is the solid rock; not ‘how’ we do things.
As you wish!
I am settled at peace and assured on the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Understanding and seeking to live according to John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”
I am settled, assured and proving the truth of what the Lord Jesus taught of his plan for the NT ministry until the end of the age. All Paul lived and taught was in harmony with this. The gates of hell or your wishy washing building on the sand approach will not prevail against it.
Traveller
We are amazed you can quote Matthew 28:19-:20 and NOT realize that Jesus gave the Law and Fathers and Prophets to the 11Apostles. “Observing all things whatsoever I have commanded you”. That meant that those appointed 12 witness in Acts 1 would do exactly as Jesus HAD taught them. AND the 12 did JUST!
The evidence that they did just that is in ACTS 2:1-:47. And Acts 3: and 4:……..
AND that in NO WAY in any imagination IS THE CURRENT ONE!
Acts 2:14. Please read what Peter, standing up with the11, lifted up his voice and SAID…. You answer these questions
To who — 2;5, :14, :22, :36
What did he preach? 2:16 – :21, :25 – :35
What were those Jews to do? 2:38
Exactly what John the Baptist and Jesus taught that Chosen Nation of Israel.
What is the “apostle’s” DOCTRINE? 2:42-46
Are you saying all believers NOW sell all and have all things common. 2:44-45
AND You are saying NOW the Workers preach THAT: those who believe 2:46?
Now grab Acts three and follow Peter and John as they go up together “into the “Temple” at the hour of prayer, Law of Moses = being the ninth hour.
Who did Peter and John preach to? Acts 3:12-
What did they preach? Acts 3:13-:25 The promise of Law, Fathers , Prophets
Ye are the the children of the prophets and the “covenants”…..
AND 4:4 …. 4000 — who joined those in Acts 2:41-:42, –:47. and were part of those problems in Acts 6:
What universe are you from that you are NOW living in this as the current one? Until Christ comes again?
What do you do with Romans 3:21-27;? or 11:5-:12? 11:25 – :27?
Or Ephesians 3:1-:9
Or 2 Peter 3:1- as Peter writes to those Jews who have been scattered from that church ( (Acts 2:47) in Jerusalem who sold all and worshipped in the Temple: 1 Peter 1:1)):
2 Peter 3:9-:14 encourages his believers that God will fulfill HIS promises to them.
IT is NOW the long-suffering of God (as in Romans 11: and Eph. 3:1-9)
2 Peter 3:9 and :15
:15 -:16 while God has given wisdom to “Paul” as in ALL Paul’s epistles speaking in them of things hard to be understood. This is NOT the ministry Jesus gave to his 12 apostles.
You would be wise to learn what ministry God gave to Paul and to whom!
This was given AFTER Matthew 28:19-:20.
Astounded
Your confused, incorrect understanding of scripture does not to change the simple truth that I stated of what the Lord Jesus planned for NT ministry to be until the end of age.
Astounded:
You write:
“Traveller. Our heart aches for you. We have seen and felt the wrath of your Hope. We will trust God’s word as written. Bless your heart as you try to cope with this deep tragedy in God’s very Name.”
Why let your heart ache for me unnecessarily? You are confused in thinking you have seen God’s wrath on my assurance in the words, teaching and rock foundation of the Lord Jesus. Confirmed and lived by all that the Apostle Paul lived and taught. Confirmed in Rev 21 in the vision of the eternal city.
Your wrath perhaps but not the wrath of God on his timeless plan. God plan in Christ was settled from the eternity before the world began. The plan includes what the NT ministry is to be until the end of the age. Yes there is a sadness in the failings of some men, but God’s plan is unchanged and will continue.
Traveler: This is Astounded. We replied to your reply and it is recorded at 4:04pm July 6. We are sorry our reply was short and does NOT give a scriptural basis.
Genesis 1:28 God’s very 1st Good News to Human Kind
Genesis 2:8-:17. God added to the first
3: is the record of humans doubting God’s Word.
:13 – :15 God gave them hope in their ‘no hope’.
:15. her seed – her seed shall bruise the serpents head. = Jesus
:24 this is the reason for our present living in an imperfect earth
BUT God gave them hope :21clothed them = same word in Isaiah 61:10
For two thousand years God dealt with man and their offspring; there were many Nations = Gentiles.
Genesis 6:6-7 That was destroyed by a flood.
Genesis 9: 1 -:17 God’s Good News to Noah; result was Noah’s seed tried to replace God with their own strength and make a NAME of their own.
Joshua 24:2 explains the generations of Shem: AND they served OTHER God’s
God turned from ALL Nations = Gentiles.
AND
God raised-up Abram out of all nations.
Exodus 19:5,6 God had a purpose for His Chosen Nation Israel: to reach all nations= Gentiles to bring them back to himself. That Nation that were to be a Nation of Priest:: would not!
#1. They rejected God. Amos 8:11:12 explains God’s reaction. This gives us Chills.
God, the Father was silent for 400 years.
Then God sent His Son: God, the Son.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the record of Jesus: God the Son’s ministry on the earth to bring God’s chosen Nation of Israel “back to God” .
John 1:1; Word was Jesus in the Flesh- :14
1:31 the reason Jesus came in His flesh Luke 1:32-33, :68 :80
As you know that very Government of Israel – the Rulers were those in God’s very Holy Temple: the priests, scribes, = the Pharisees and Sadducees
Rejected their very promised Messiah, King and Judge.
#2. AND demanded His crucifixion!
Then God, the Son=Jesus sent his chosen 12 apostles with the Holy Spirit
John 20:21 As my Father hath sent me((John 1:31)); so send I you.
Now, so you will be able to understand What is next: you must read Math.12:31-32. shall NOT BE FORGIVEN; neither in this world nor that to come
AND That is what God’s very Chosen Government of that Nation of Israel did!
Did you read Matthew 12:31-32?
#3. Acts 6: and Act 7: are the very RECORD of that very Government knowingly committing “blasphemy” against God the “Holy Spirit” Acts 6:15, 7:55-:56
This “Traveler” IS the beginning of the end at that time of the Good News by the 12 Apostles. That Generation of Jews could NOT be forgiven in this world or that to come.
Romans 1:1. It has been almost 2000 years and God still has not:
11:26 BUT God through Paul explains God WILL turn ungodliness
from Jacob. IF God says he will do something; God WILL!
:27 For this is my “covenant” unto them, when I shall take away
their sins(Acts 3:12 Peter explained to that Government of Israel
Acts 3:19 If they would Repent and be converted, that your sins may be
blotted-out……”when” the times of refreshing shall come………
:20-:21This is the Promised 1000 year reign of Christ with Israel on
a perfect earth = their promised Kingdom of heaven on earth))
NOW
Ephesians 3:1-9 THAT Gospel Paul preached is EXPLAINED:
3:1-:2 Dispensation of the Grace of God given to Paul for Gentiles
:4- the “mystery of Christ”(Yes, Jesus is Risen and is NOW “Christ”!)
:5 Which in “OTHER ages was NOT MADE KNOWN”
:6 THAT this GRACE is given to Gentiles
AND explains it is “unsearchable” riches… NEVER recorded before in Bible.
:9 to make all men see WHAT is the fellowship of the “mystery”
WHY? 1 Cor. 2:7((God did “ordain” Paul’s Gospel before the world —–
BUT 2:8. BUT God had to keep it “secrete”
YOU read why!!! THAT reason will give you chills.
Keep in mind that God had to keep “secrete” the Triune God’s plan (Acts 2:23a to give God, the Son as a sacrifice for all man kind:
WHY?
2:8 Because the “princes of this world would NOT have crucified the “Lord of glory
2:9-:10 Paul promises God will reveal by the Holy Spirit. “YEA, the deep things of God
2:12-14 Explains the natural spirit in man Can Not know
That is why this is considered Foolishness to you.
If you can understand this and believe what the risen Jesus = Christ Jesus in heaven – gave to Paul by the Holy Spirit; but if you cannot as you stated : then
You do not Know the Doctrine of Jesus
Or the Doctrine of the 12 apostles
Or the Doctrine of the Grace of God
IF you understand and feel the Doctrine of the Grace of God is the same as the Doctrine by God given to Moses for and to that Nation of Israel so they could be a Nation of Priest to bring all other Nations(Gentiles) to God.
BUT God’s word explains in Romans 11:25, “BLINDNESS” in part IS happened to Israel, “UNTIL”(a time word)
WHAT is the time? :25(b)when God’s DESPENSATION of the Gospel of Grace is complete
THEN :26 This is the time God will turn away “ungodliness from Jacob”(Israel)
:27. For this is my covenant to his chosen Nation.
This explains that the two Gospels and their Doctrine are not the same.
Traveler; please ask God for understanding.
Having been in the work and having experienced the bullying, the emotional and psychological abuse that is high, I agree that the ministry needs to be purged thoroughly. At this point I have NO clue who would be left standing between the criminals and those who have condoned their criminality thru inaction, there may be one or two left here and there. I left the work because a brother worker on our staff was revealed to have abused children and NOTHING was done. NOTHING, other than he was put out of the work. He was not limited in going to meetings, ended up marrying and having a meeting in his home, and guess what – new allegations have arisen about this man!! unbelievable. I didn’t know how to preach the pure and perfect way of God when there was soooo much corruption. I was heartsick and of course no one to turn to. ‘we were not allowed to talk about it’ was the attitude. This was early to mid 1990’s. All this has brought that dark time back. Speak out, do NOT remain silent!!
Traveller. Our heart aches for you. We have seen and felt the wrath of your Hope. We will trust God’s word as written. Bless your heart as you try to cope with this deep tragedy in God’s very Name.
Thankyou from the bottom of my heart, we need more workers speaking out about their experiences.
It seems that anyone honest is going to have to leave the ministry.
Another nice letter. Going absolutely nowhere.
The definition of insanity is: doing the same thing over and over, hoping/expecting different results. Myself included.
I’ve sent out umpteenth letters to our ministers and friends. Most I hear nothing back. Others I do. Some I apologize too as well.
The only thing that will bring about change is when the seats are empty.
exactly but perhaps change will come when the money stops flowing in. When workers are not welcome in people’s homes because of distrust.
To Traveller – For you to suggest that this letter is only half written is presumptuous on your part and then to announce what the second half should be is is even sillier. Beyond ridiculous really. I guess that’s your job buddy, so go for it. Your recounting of scripture is fine but is just a flex, and significantly misses the point of a well written and insightful letter. The next step is CLEARLY offered: AN APOLOGY. Abject apology that can be repeated and rephrased over the next months and years until the ministry and leadership gets it right and proves their sincerity by supporting actions. That truly is the gospel work.
Your attempt with your ‘sillier’ and ‘ridlculous’ adjectives don’t cancel the truth of scripture, the Lord Jesus’ word and plan. It appears that you can’t or don’t wish to see and acknowledge it.
The empty seats and empty envelopes coming from Spirit filled hearts and minds, filled by God’s Holy Word.
exactly. The money has flowed easily for a number of years. I, having been in the work, know how easily it has been mishandled and astounded at what some have spent it on. I shake my head. Dean Would not have been able to continuously book a hotel room if he hadn’t had the money/possibly credit card/ to do so.
Thanks for this very helpful letter. I have been thinking about assumptions I have about what God will/will not do. And I realize I need to be way more flexible and open so that I don’t miss what he wants from me. Even if it seems impossible.
Skip, I agree that change won’t happen as long as people are placating the workers by being in meetings, hanging on their every word. Our salvation is not dependent on the workers. It is only by accepting the gift of grace offered by our Savior, Jesus Christ and having a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. We can get our spiritual nourishment from feeding on God’s Word without being “fed” by the workers. I cringe to think of how many times I have been “fed” by a pedophile and/or rapist. Not any more. The only one I can trust is the Lord. (Psalm 118:8-9)
Come quickly, Lord Jesus!
Thanks Roland.
I do believe this is a wake up call for us all to examine were we stand.
Are we indeed saved?
How do we get saved?
Do we have any idols that brings God’s wrath upon us, be it a human or materialistic?
I am not in the meetings but I do strongly believe all perpetrators as well as those who covered up for them should be dealt with by the authorities aswell as excommunicated from the fellowship untill they whole heartedly repent, 1 Corinthians 5
That overseership should be scrapped, the field of authority leveled, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
Leadership should consist of men and women in each area( not large areas, meetings combined to form smaller areas)
Public meetings all over the world, inviting the victums, public apology from the heart, NO excuses.
Supporting the victims, financially, emotionally, in any way possible, create groups to facilitate this support in each area.
I just read Ephesians 6, regarding the armor of God.
Satan wants to destroy our faith by rubbing our faces in these atrocities, but thank God that we can defeat him with the armor of God.
We will not understand alot of things on this earth but we cant turn our backs on God because we don’t understand, as Peter said”to whom shall we go Lord?”
Just Saying, you are spot on with, “It is only by accepting the gift of grace offered by our Savior, Jesus Christ and having a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. We can get our spiritual nourishment from feeding on God’s Word without being “fed” by the workers. I cringe to think of how many times I have been “fed” by a pedophile and/or rapist”. I love you stating, HAVING A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. That is vital!! It is essential that time is made for the Lord. Keeping so BUSY with ” meetings ” just to “support THE workers” is fruitless, useless, and of no help for anything other than fill a seat. The time in the thousands of seats I occupied in front of an absolute creep would have been much better spent on a quiet lake in a kayak praying and furthering my personal relationship with the Lord. Just Saying, you said it! And you are right.
All credit goes to the Holy Spirit!
“So as it was in the days of Noah it shall be just before the Son of man returns” The apostle Paul wrote most of the New Testament and he warned a young Timothy disciple about the last days: Timothy 3:1-5:
“You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good.
They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly”.
Yes, empty seats will tell the empty suits the most!!!
“Every day is just one day nearer…”
Rolland, thanks for publishing your letter to Ray & Barry. Will they ever heed our cries? Most likely not. Here’s why: The mantra of every cult is that “Jesus’ return is imminent!”. Something happened within our fellowship in the early days that opened a “revelation” to William Irvine, that Jesus’ return was imminent. Irvine then headed to Jerusalem to wait for Jesus’ return. Obvously, he waited in vain.
Today, something is again happening within our fellowship. I have no doubt that Ray & Barry are viewing this as another “revelation” of Jesus’ imminent return! With this “revelation” in hand, I believe they want to hold on to power even more now, so they can be ‘on the right side’ to herald Him in.
While the rest of us who are hurting (in so many ways) fall away, they will stay “strong” and “faithful”.
These are my opinions coupled with facts from decades of observation and research while professing for those same decades.
Simply put… this is how cults work.
Sadly Pessimistic, you stated:
While the rest of us who are hurting (in so many ways) fall away, they will stay “strong” and “faithful”.
We have been told all our lives that the only way to get to heaven is through the workers. We have to profess and go to meeting. We have to dress and wear our hair just so. But that’s not what Jesus said. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” Jesus is the one and only way. He is the only one who could pay our debt for sin. It’s time to open our eyes to the brainwashing that has been going on for so long. By reading God’s Word and asking Him to help me understand HIS WAY, the reality of my life’s purpose is becoming clear to me. The commandments Jesus gave to us were, 1) Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul, and strength, and 2) Love thy neighbor as thyself. If a person goes to meeting, but doesn’t follow these two commandments, will “professing” get him/her into heaven? I think not. Of course, I’m not the judge. Just saying.
About “falling away” or “losing out”, they can say what they want. Maintaining a relationship with the Lord is the most important thing we can do. I left the fellowship (not saying anyone else should, it’s a personal matter) but I did not leave the Lord. My bond with Him is growing daily. I realize now I need all three levels of God–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (One to the third power is a very powerful one.)
Keep your chin up. Know that you are loved. God bless you.
Traveller, you quote Scripture, stating, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. The trouble is Traveller you haven’t traveled enough to know what you are writing! The workers do NOT practice these Scriptures, that are the word of God!!! My incredible, teen daughter was denied to be baptized by the ” workers ” because she wore jeans. Our state was one that had more of the stringent set of rules the workers had in place and monitored. Just like back in the day when black stocking were enforced on all the women. These days almost every professing female wears pants of some sort. But, then and now, the workers don’t follow God’s word, they follow their own whims and rules. Traveller, IF the workers followed the word of God, the big mess seen today would have never happened. Instead of berating others Traveller, you better get out more and find out what the workers are really up to. Squeeze into some black stocking on a hot day in July for good measure while you’re at it. Oh, don’t forget to bun your hair up and put on a big, hot dress, too, just to make it real. And, then you can sit around with the workers to figure out what the next set of rules should be. ….Please don’t come for my 65 inch t.v. just because you want to stick with your eight inch I pad! Traveller, maybe a big screen would do you good? Just a suggestion.
Astounded:
Your latest post which ends:
“This explains that the two Gospels and their Doctrine are not the same.
Traveler; please ask God for understanding.
a) I did ask God for understanding and that is the basis of the simple truth I posted what God’s plan for the NT ministry until the end of time is.
b) Where on earth did you get this from? Kindly post the link of the source?
astounded:
your latest post which ends
“This explains that the two Gospels and their Doctrine are not the same.
Traveler; please ask God for understanding.”
a)I did ask God for understanding and that is the basis of the simple truth I posted of God’s plan for the NT ministry from the commission on the mount in Galilee until the end of time is.
b)Where on earth did get your long complicated erroneous argument from? Kindly post the link of the source. What other nonsense and error do they have?