Thank you for your care and thoughtfulness. I’ll make it as plain as I can from my perspective. I will also reply all as you suggested and I understand my email may be forwarded or seen outside of this group, including being posted in other forums. However, what I’m going to say is what I would say to any who ask so I feel I can be transparent to this small group of people.
Ray and Barry, the overseers they oversee, and the overseers in place after place, have actively condoned and facilitated child sexual assault and sexual assault by their actions. They have knowingly moved people or reintegrated people into close contact with other people in this fellowship when they had far more than sufficient evidence to understand the harm that had already occurred and would be almost certain or absolutely certain to occur again. The pleading of ignorance or of a lack of understanding by these men in letters and public proclamations of what child sexual assault and sexual assault is and how to address it is transparently false. It is a lie that borne of a heart that will not acknowledge what we have personally witnessed them knowing in the past. And further, surely, if the Spirit of Jesus would teach us anything, it would be not to have sex with children or to use the position of the ministry to gain access to children, women, and men to sexually assault them. Honestly, it does not take MinistrySafe training to teach us what the Spirit of Christ is already plainly teaching, let alone what even natural human care would teach us. There have been enough people already removed from the ministry explicitly for those reasons just in our current crisis, with allegations known to the overseers and many others dating back decades, that these continued assertions of ignorance are now completely and publicly without merit.
I am looking for true repentance. To me, this looks like a full and open confession of every single instance, including date, situation, and perpetrator, that they have ever dealt with, had direct knowledge of, or input into. In every case where the perpetrator is still living they would go to that perpetrator and remove them from the physical presence of fellowship and comply with all legal and ethical requirements for reporting. In all cases they would meet with and apologize directly to every reported survivor of each perpetrator, and continue to do so with every survivor who becomes known in the future. Further, if any part of this requirement means that they admit to legal culpability, they would be prepared to plead guilty and comply with any legal sentences imposed rather than mount a legal defense in every jurisdiction where this is applicable. These are the conditions they have imposed many times in the past on others in many situations. These are the marks of repentance that would also begin to reduce the harm that has been done and is being done.
In addition, these are the same marks I would expect every overseer internationally to demonstrate as well.
Harm is continuing. Every moment they do not do this is high risk for another person to become a victim and have to fight to become a survivor.
We cannot talk adequately about the future until the past is addressed. This is not negotiable. And anyone who is a survivor or has worked with or listened to survivors recognizes this is the only path forward. To date, in nearly every place where these overseers have dealt with this issue in this current crisis, they have not acted to stop harm or prevent further harm until backed into a corner by other people. This is not acceptable behavior in those we have trusted to demonstrate the life of Jesus.
It should not take lawsuits or other legal action to compel testimony under oath, or to have men participate in legal depositions under penalty of perjury, or to compel legal discovery of e-mail and text correspondence with one another, to simply have men to do what even the most base of men in this world have decided should be done when it becomes known that people in positions of trust are or have sexually abused other people, including children. It is lower than the minimum of what we would ever expect of any person who is being taught by the Spirit of Christ.
What was different about Jesus is that he is fully focused on the heart. Jesus said A. I have loved you as my Father has loved me and B. Love you one another as I have loved you. And further, that we would be known to be his because we live that love. People have focused on all the other parts of the Bible because they have no idea how to do that most important part. Because it seems impossible. Jesus could not literally have meant what he said, that we should actually or could actually love one another in that way. But we can. And we must. And if we don’t, we are not his.
Jesus also plainly said that we would know them by their fruits. And that the same well cannot bring forth both bitter and sweet. It is one or the other. For years that was a key part of my cognitive dissonance. But no longer. We are not looking to reduce the bitter. Or put more of the sheep’s wool onto the wolf’s back. We are looking for sweet water, for fruit that loves as Jesus loves and as the Father loves the Son.
If we continue to try to legislate righteousness and put up barriers to prevent harm, we are not saving any souls, we are simply doing what the law is designed to do, which is to impose exterior control on people who are not internally guided to do no harm. It is not the saving of those people’s souls that the law brings about. It is only a reduction of harm that they do to others. For them to be saved, they must become as little children. And the fruit of that is unmistakable. We cannot legislate the fruit of the Father’s work. But we definitely know it when we see and taste it.
So I encourage us all to only focus on the wolves to expel them from doing harm. And then to focus on people who seek what Jesus sought for his own. And realize that when we feel tired from pushing, it is only because we are trying to push out the wolf from doing more harm, not to save the wolf. The wolf can only be saved by a Father who can replace the heart of the wolf with the heart of the sheep, and that is nothing but a miracle. However, in this situation, around predator behavior…repentance means voluntarily removing themselves from any contact with sheep as the sheep still are likely to have a strong and expected fear response. And loving others truly from the heart would mean that the predator would begin to understand and feel things from the perspective of the prey, and would understand that they may not be able to both be loving AND in constant contact with most of the sheep, but only with the Shepherd. Fellowship with individual sheep would have to be on those sheep’s terms and not initiated by the person who has been a predator. Much in the same way that a “shut-in” person would be. And we know how richly the Shepherd is able to pour out on people in those situations. So the predator who has a new heart, which is only a miracle, will not lose any good thing. They will have from the Father the same as all the rest of his children. Love…full and abundant. And the fruit of their new heart will be the same as Jesus…it will do no harm and it will be sweet.
Many of these people we see have spoken good words. And as Jesus said, we can do as they say. But we cannot do as they do. Because what they say may mimic the heart of God. But what they DO reveals what is in their OWN heart. And THAT is bitter and its effect is destructive and hurts people who are soft and have the heart of a child.
I am highly skeptical of listening tours when I see so many people not even hearing the cries of the victims and survivors in so many places. Thousands of victims. Hundreds of perpetrators and many of those in the work all over the world. Just reading the gut-wrenching, soul-sickening story after story on places such as WingsForTruth, which is run by all or nearly all people who are currently “professing” in this fellowship, leads us to know that repentance of all the harm we have made possible is the first step. And we have not seen evidence of that repentance yet. We have seen token words. But we have not seen the acts of repentance, as I describe at the beginning of this email. We know that there are still perpetrators with allegations who are actively in the work and participating in fellowship with people at risk for further harm.
Surely the marks of repentance are what must happen, and there must be mourning as we repent of what we have enabled in this fellowship, and especially in the ministry, year after year, decade after decade. Then we can show that indeed we DO esteem the least as greatest and we DO love one another as the Father loves his Son, and his Son loves us.
Best,
Bryan
Bryan & Celia Hansen
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Bryan & Celia, thank you. This letter is the first one that has brought a sense of calm in the middle of all this for me…not fueled solely by emotion, but with much thought and care. Please know your effort is so appreciated.
Very well said Bryan. I agree with every word that you wrote.
Amen.
Thank you VERY much, Bryan. Thank you for advocating for us victim survivors. Thank you for speaking out against these two (and others) who continue to re-traumatize us. Thank you. Thank you!!!
Thank you.
I just want to stand in solidarity with all you have said. Thank you so much!
Easy to understand, time to implement actions needed to move forward after all the pain, deceit, and incompetence. If some need to step down, so be it.
This is very direct, biblically sound and articulate. I appreciate your boldness and level headedness. Your message rings true in my own heart. I have been so convicted that love does not negate accountability, love makes accountability possible. We must, in love for Jesus, be separate from this evil and nature of the wolf. Sheep SHOULD fear a wolf, we have been given a spirit of discernment to enable us to cast out evil from amongst us. We need to resist what is of the devil, not make room for it next to us in fellowship meeting. Thank you for your letter and for allowing it to be public so we can be encouraged by it.
Thank you, Bryan. There is truth in your letter that will be hard for some to accept. So be it.
Works of darkness within a fellowship proclaiming light leads to a destructive end. Hoping those claiming authority search their hearts through the light of Christ and react responsibly.
Ah yes. Truth and Mercy. Mixed together in very equal measures (IMO in this letter). One beats the air when arguing against truth and mercy mixed together in equal measures. If it is all truth, non of us have a chance. If it is all mercy, then anything goes. I ask God through His grace to give me these equal measures…that I too could be such a lamb.
And yes, the humble, heart-felt request for repentance….of a Godly sort.
The sort of repentance that was historically demanded for minor infractions of the sheep. Some of the sheep it seems were led to believe those infractions to be major infractions … and now we have another point …and it takes at least two points to make a line.
But of higher relevance is the sort of repentance demanded of those that were kicked to the ditch …let alone in the ditch. The sort of repentance demanded of those that were trying to help those that were laying wounded in the ditch….and of those Samaritans or even of the country men/women of the same nation that found themselves lying in the ditch wounded.
And fruit meet for repentance. I hope the Lord will give me grace not to be of the generation that John the Baptist spoke of.
And Nathan said to King David, “a poor man had one little lamb that he had nourished up ……… ”
It just may have been an insult to God that we (the royal we) felt capable of identifying His sheep for Him. If anyone is wanting to see, I believe He has shown us we are not capable. He may be telling us “I know who my sheep are”. [Thank you very much!] Is the Lord maybe asking us to repent of the notion that souls have to come though a certain other door before they get to Jesus door? Repent of the notion that He needs us to tell Him who the lambs of His fold are? Just asking friends. I thought it was a good question. But maybe it is just a dumb-ass question.
Mark S. We do not know who you are: but we do know what you are. You are a very intelligent, discerning, able to read our Holy Word of God with out the blinders of the 2×2’s glasses which demand worship of the ministry. Been there – done that. AND we stand guilty of that; so we cannot condemn. BUT we can learn what God has left on record for our learning and thankfully can ALSO discern what is written for our obedience.
Your last paragraph screams your deep understanding: AND it is A Question Every Soul, Everywhere needs to search God’s very Word ((1 Peter 1:11) Which is the “Spirit of Christ” )) for the answer.!
THAT Question, Mark asks is: “IS the Lord asking us to repent(= change ones mind – turn from) of the notion that “Souls have to come through a certain other door::: BEFORE they get to the Jesus DOOR?
((Because of 2 Corinthians 5:16:: we would replace the name “Jesus Door” to the “RISEN Christ Door”))
AND all you dear folks please READ and answer his next Question with deep honesty and Word of God.
Thank You Mark S; you hit the nail on the Head!
Astounded: I am not suggesting we burn the house down. This fellowship that many of us have valued all our life.
I am suggesting however 1) we listen for the bleating of the sheep that have been treated roughly and unfairly by those in an elevated position of power so those of us whom are so inclined can go to their help and try to pour in the oil and the wine…without fear of retribution, and 2) that friends ask the Holy Spirit for root cause of such to happen in the first place and to go on for so long in the high places and dark corners. From what I see and sense, this asking is being done in earnest now (finally?) by some in the fellowship. I am encouraged by the sense that some are questioning the measure of the oil in their own heart and not putting all/much/most of their faith/trust in the oil that is in the lamp they are holding in their hand; all the things that will end at the grave.
Some new policy and procedures for the fellowship to attempt to protect the little ones will be good for sure. However, from time immemorial, laws were added to laws were added to laws ad nauseam because someone always managed to find the loophole circumventing Jesus two main commandments he left to mankind. This is a daily and hourly battle for everyone..at least anyone that wants to be conscious of it on a daily and even hourly basis.
But for the grace of God go I. I apologize to anyone that feels I have detracted from our brother’s humble and courageous petition in this letter to the overseers.
This particular comment is spot on, and hopefully the desire of all of us.
Thank you, Bryan and Celia, for having the courage to write this letter. You do a beautiful job of expressing how so many of us are feeling!!
Mark; in reply to your reply, I realize from your reply THAT I misunderstood. This is based on our experience with two “overseers”.
When we had questions concerning the example in OUR Bible ((that the Workers follow the 12 apostles)); we read word for word what is recorded by the very ‘Spirit of Christ'(1 Peter 1:11) in the 4 Gospels and in Acts 1: thru 12:.
This opened a can of worms::: when we wanted to study this together with the workers. This unleashed a monster. They were very defensive! Why? AND, then shouted we HAD to do what the workers SAY!
Where did that come from? What had we not Done??!
Of course we were (in our minds) compelled to study aGAIN WHAT Jesus preached and why Jesus came as King to that Nation of Israel — To bring that Nation of Israel back to God. AND try to understand WHAT the trigger was?
Matthew 10:5-:6. Yes, only Israel. What did Jesus preach?
4:17, :23. Yes, those Jews well knew their promises from O. T.
15:24. Yes, only Israel
16:19 Peter given keys to decisions concerning individual Jews and
17:1:9 God shows those 3 apostles HIS Son. (Now they Knew!) No doubt
Jesus gives 12 a Promise: their reigning – When Jesus sits on David’s throne
Math. 19:28. and Luke 22:29-30. YES, over the 12 tribes = God’s Chosen Israel
SO WHAT?
The 12 asked the risen Jesus Acts 1:6 wilt thou AT THIS TIME ‘restore’ AGAIN the Kingdom to Israel? ((Rome was now the Occupying Nation-their Ruler). Jesus gave a NON-answer.
Those 12 knew what they would preach and to whom.
Acts 2:5 Devout Jews :14, :22, :22. and
Preached God’s Old Testament promises given by Fathers and prophets
Acts 2:14 – :35
AND then the Overseeers Came. It became confrontational. We just wanted to have a Bible Study and be able to understand What,Who, How, and When.
We learned things we Never Knew. Christ’s Blood means nothing!
#1. Only hope of salvation IF Hear through the Workers
#2. All must listen and learn only to the workers
#3. Christ’s blood means nothing unless you are under the salvation given by
workers.
((We have wondered if they think they are going to sit on 12 thrones “Judging” the 12 tribes of Israel; when Jesus sits on David’s throne of Glory?))
They can’t and don’t follow Jesus or 12 appointed Disciples? Are you a Jew?
Mark, this #3. certain “other” DOOR; we thought you were referring to THAT we must only come to Jesus after we come to the workers. BUT that means something Else to you.
We finally have an answer to our questions and it has been a brutal journey to learn the workers are NOT sent by God: they do don’t follow Jesus or the 12 apostles. 1. You carefully read the 4 gospels and what Jesus preached and to whom.
You read 2. to whom and what the 12 apostles preached. AND READ what their Doctrine is Acts 2:42-46. Is that your Doctrine? When you believed?
We were mislead into thinking you actually read our Bible as it is written for us as in Ephesians 6:11-:13 ‘wiles of satan and :17 is the KEY armour we need!
Thank you kindly.
@Astounded.
I am sorry that I may have confused you. I know you understood me, and I understood you. I will explain.
Your reply showed me and others in no uncertain terms that you agreed with me. My head told me that loud and clear. But for some reason, my already laden heart became more laden. I truly did not know what to say. And I labored all day…and part of the night. I have come to understand that through part of my life, I had insisted on my heart agreeing with my head. But I am on a journey to try to get my head accepting what my heart is telling me.
Nevertheless, I understand now from your explanation just now of where you are coming from. And I have accepted the conversation on this website has moved along somewhat and I still do not want to distract from Bryan & Celia’s message. The books are being opened, one by one. There is a steady drip-drip-drip it seems. I suspect there is a bit of water behind the dam.
Everyone will do what they feel they must do in this patch of rough road. To each their own. I hear some bleating ..and I hear some howling. I also hear some silence. The silence could be of a sheep nature that feels safe beside the Shephard, or it could be of a wolf nature watching. Or it could be the silence of indifference.
Was your experience with two ‘overseers’ as you say…or just two workers? Very unusual that two overseers would be together to go and talk about things with someone that had some questions they wanted answered. I can be confident however that the overseers right now are getting together to talk. They will be discussing how to get the narrative under control. There is an elephant in the room and it will take a concerted effort to bring it down; at least get it into submission on their terms.
So I encourage you to try to move on from this strange experience with these two gunslingers that road in on high horses. It is futile debating with a gunslinger riding a high horse. If you don’t accept ‘his’ truth, you will likely get some lead. If you don’t get some help to get the lead out, you will eventually die of lead poisoning. I have come to understand that it is useless debating with ignorance. The ignorant will win every time. I am not saying I am looking to ‘win’ …using your expression, ‘been there, done that’. What I do know however is that debating with ignorance will invariably reveal my own ignorance. We all look in the mirror in the morning and brush our hair and say “I’m good! Bring on the day.”
I also encourage you not to tar the whole group with the tar of religion. Try the spirits and judge the fruit. Everyone has their own brush and their own tar bucket and they can apply the tar to themselves as liberally as they wish. The tar is needed when we need to cover things up in our lives. Living honestly is not much of a consideration for religious people. It is actually frightful for a religious person to live ‘honestly’. When I say honestly, I don’t mean not cheating on your taxes and not swindling someone, etc, etc though that is part of it for sure. Religion dictates however that there is a face you must show, a façade you must cloak yourself with, otherwise the reputation of the brand gets tarnished. And we dare not tarnish the brand for heaven’s sake! For heaven’s sake? Did I say that? So the message is baked in and often goes unrecognized – ‘do not live honestly!’. I am not suggesting to stick our transgressions and short comings in people’s faces; that is the opposite extreme on the continuum. Look, I am a sinner. There are those that might be inclined to say Mark can’t talk, he is a sinner! To those I say, “you and me bud are violently in agreement!” “What would you like to talk about now? How about the weather? That is pretty safe thing to talk about….I think it is raining right now, do you agree?”
I also dare say I am not a bible thumper. …any more. I will not go into much detail about my journey on this and what I have come to understand for my own life. This may have to be a journey everyone has to take personally if they are so inclined to yearn for the truth of God. But may I just suggest, there is One that knows the truth of the matter. Ideally one would ask the One that Jesus said would ‘lead us into all truth’. In short, my journey began 7 years ago when I saw 40% (+/-) of the populace saying their truth was truth and the other side (40% +/-) saying their truth was truth. My grandmother used to say “there is your truth and there is your truth (moving her finger from me to someone else) and then there is God’s truth. So I began to pray and meditate that God would show me the truth. And nothing came for a period of time. Then one day I realized, deep down, my prayer had an unspoken caveat. My prayer had been “God show me the truth, providing it did not contravene the one story I had been told and the one book I had read”. When I changed my prayer in honesty to “God, show me your truth ‘regardless’ of what I have been told and what I have read”….well, God must have known then that I was willing for the veil to come down. I came to realize the Holy Spirit would stay quiet as long as I insisted on telling Him what the truth was. I have come to know in my own life that the Holy Spirit will not argue with me. He lets me win as long as I want to win. What I did not realize at that point was that I would need a seat belt in my carriage and that I would have to upgrade the suspension. It was hard keeping the wheels on for the first couple of years or so. But God will show anyone that is so inclined at a pace He knows they can handle. There are many things He wants to show me, but He will know when I am ready. I am not saying to disregard the bible but rather let Him show you what the truth is about things you read there. Is it 100% truth? To each their own belief. For me, something written by man to represent God’s Word and God’s image, something that had its genesis in a mighty earthly empire that controlled a mighty church’s organization’s followers for +/- 1200 years, something we hold in our hand and absorb in our head, something that allows us to pitch ‘truth’ at no cost, something that has caused death and carnage over the ages. Meh! Me thinks Jesus singled out the Pharisees for one good reason….and the scribes for another.
Just my gleaning. But Mark shouldn’t talk! He is just a sinner and he knows it. He has things to fix in his own life. I will shut up now. Have to get back to work[ing on those things]. Oh, but one thing before I go, I encourage you to desire to be like a lamb and get close to the True Shephard. Don’t let anyone tell you an alternate fact of what ‘on the outside’ means. Ask the One that knows. He will give you the straight goods about your own condition and where you are. Don’t think this storm will blow over any time soon skipper! Better batten down the hatches!
I am thankful for the clear vision of the faith and that God is moving the hearts of so many to deliver the same message to the overseers again and again.
Wings “moderator’; this is astounded. I have just been told by another person of Mark S. reply to my reply: which was on July 4 2023 at 7:45 pm. I have come back to this section and read his reply.
I would like to answer him as we feel our struggle has so been as he describes.
However, we feel at this time it would detract from what has continued to be an uglier and much deeper “PIT”: NOW as it continues to be thrust into a depravity of which we cannot imagine. AND our minds cannot “existing” at that level: ; our minds “just exit” until safer conversation returns.
As a result, could you ask Mark S. if he would like to know our reply to his encouragement to us; would you give him our Email.
Thank You ALL for your ability to handle all that is thrust into this site, and yet you continue in your purpose to bring this culture of subjection and deceit to everyone as you struggle to GET the TOP to understand their responsibility to the ‘abused’ and everyone else. Then to admit the Criminal Fraud they have
committed.
Thank you for this thoughtful and discerning letter.
Amen. Thank you for your courage.
I hope someone in authority is listening. What needs to be said is being said here. The entire world is witnessing what is happening and ongoing inaction is clearly the wrong decision.
Yes, ongoing inaction is a strong statement in itself.
Thank you Bryan and Celia with all my heart. The silence has been deafening. I get that it’s scriptural not to uncover another’s nakedness. That when God forgives our sin it is cast into the depths of the sea never to be brought up again. However, that forgiveness comes at the price of Acknowledging our sin and Asking for Forgiveness. All I’ve witnessed is how many different ways the issues can be skirted. My heart cries out for these little ones. I believe God has given every opportunity for true repentance and transparency and God’s children should be backing up His cry. I love this way with all my being and I want nothing to do with dismantling it. I just want the wovles separated from the sheep. God can and will provide for them if they repent.
In love and care,
Denay
It is hard to believe these atrocities have happened and can still happen, I am sure we all whish it wasn’t even possible.
I can just echo others ” thanks” to Bryan and Celia.
Thank you so much, Bryan and Celia. The Lord’s hand is working. Praying they will be united in godly sorrow that can work, in time, to repentance.
Amen and thank you Bryan and Celia for expressing so beautifully what’s on so many of our hearts.
Very disappointed that more elders and professing folk have not stepped up to the plate and supported Bryan and Celia and the stand that they have taken. After all, they were both well known and respected workers in Montana, Iowa , Ohio, and maybe more states. Instead, the friends – think they call themselves “the fellowship” nowadays, which was high jacked from Star Wars – seem to prefer to slip around and make sure they look good in the eyes of the current leadership, regardless of the CSA/SA evil and all the other corruptness that is occurring. Shameful behavior. We will all stand before God soon as individuals and He will accept zero excuses.
Your letter has settled my heart from so much hurt and anger 💔. Thank you for your understanding and care for souls ❤️❤️❤️. Love you!
Thank you, Bryan and Celia. I’m feeling pretty hopeless in the midst of this battle. I honestly do not understand the mentality of ignoring the obvious and doing nothing to correct what is broken. For the life of me I can’t figure out the prevailing mindset of “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil”. It’s like we need to ignore this and it will go away. The folks in my meeting will never admit that CSA occurs anywhere but in other religions. It’s just crazy!
Sometimes I think that people don’t know how to admit it, even though inside themselves, they acknowledge it. For some, especially older people, I think it’s hard to break the taboo of speaking about these things, but it needs to happen.
Thank you for speaking what is on my heart. Just want the wolves removed that true healing can begin with God’s help. My answer is to just pray & pray for spiritual guidance.
Bryan & Celia, Thank you so much for your eloquent email, the way you have addressed the issues and the solutions you offer.