WINGS note: Mr. Hoffmann issues challenge to prove cover-ups.
Setting the scene
90 minute discussion, about 50 people in attendance, 7 workers arranged in a big oval. Ray Hoffmann and Barry Barkley were two of the workers in attendance. The discussion started with a hymn.
Discussion
The first person that spoke was Barry. He stated an apology and that they were there to listen and learn.
Someone spoke next about their professional experience with children that have been a victim of abuse. Explained that it often takes years for a child to come forward and that statistically they only mention it once. This is part of why it is so important to believe victims when they come forward. The speaker expressed concern that when instances of abuse are brought to light that nothing is reported to authorities and perpetrators are simply shuffled to another field. They then told a story about a rape victim that they only discovered because the victim began to self mutilate. The rapist was a known offender moved into that field, and there were other victims after they were moved. The speaker asked for reassurance that the decision makers would make good decisions for everyone. (This request was not responded to by the workers).
The next person to speak said that the only way any of these perpetrators have a chance with God is to be in jail where they can’t hurt anyone. Where they have time to think and repent.
The next person said that they were glad the workers were at this town hall tending to the flock. They told stories of generations of sexual abuse in the family from perpetrators within and outside of meeting. They said we need to understand the difference between legal and moral and that the legal aspect of this would catch up to the ministry. They asked a rhetorical question: “where is the scripture that supports covering up? David’s sin was not covered up.” They ended by saying there is hope.
A brother worker responded with “the more informed we are the more we can move forward.” He explained that the CSA stuff was new to them and that MinistrySafe has been a real eye-opener.
Someone spoke in response to this worker that “no adult needs a course, book, or instructor to tell them that rape and child molestation is bad”.
The next person to speak stated that they wanted reassurance that all allegations would be reported and people in the area be informed.
The moderator tried to bring the mic to Ray Hoffmann to respond to this and Ray motioned the mic away and did not respond.
The next person said “how can we know children will be safe” (at meetings, conventions, etc.)
A brother worker responded with “that’s a hard question to answer but parents need to be aware of where their children are and who they are with. It’s a red flag if they are separated.”
Someone responded to this saying that this implies that parents of victims are to blame for not watching their children like a hawk and that guilt should be placed on the parents. The perpetrator is 100% responsible in every case. They then shared their own experience as a victim of CSA and explained how their parents knew exactly where they were but had entrusted them in someone’s care that ended up taking advantage of them..
Someone else responded to this by saying that it’s definitely partially on parents but parents know this and they know to watch out for their kids. The lack of communication is a big part of the issue. People are not told about perpetrators when they are transferred to their area. They also noted that the only information about this topic is from a website run by people who no longer go to meeting. They also called out the cover ups and victim shaming.
A few people made demands for a public blacklist of perpetrators to keep people more informed and aware. Workers seemed to be open to that but no verbal confirmation from them.
Someone mentioned that Ray’s name was brought up in a few posts about coverups and that people were calling on him to step down.
Ray zeroed in on one report. He painted a picture of the reporter being untrustworthy. He said “I’m not aware of anything I’ve been involved with with CSA. If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.”
Someone responded to Ray by saying “on the behalf of all victims, believe victims”.
A question was asked how we as families can keep the ministry safe. The interpretation of the question was “how can we make sure there aren’t perpetrators in the ministry”.
A sister worker responded with referencing the MinistrySafe course again and being informed.
Someone suggested that some kind of group is created of sister workers and mothers to be a resource for victims. If something were to happen to someone they would know of a safe group of people they could take their case to.
Someone asked why overseers travel alone and that maybe if they didn’t travel alone, they couldn’t lure people into their hotel room.
Ray responded to this by saying that that is a great suggestion and that he fears traveling alone. That he doesn’t like it when his name shows up alone on a list. (doesn’t he make the list?).
It was stated many times throughout that there needs to be better communication and we need to be able to trust that the workers will inform us immediately and those people need to be removed from meeting, special meetings, and conventions. That there is no grey area in waiting for the law to deal with it.
Ray responded to this by saying that they have notified known perpetrators that they are no longer welcome. If anyone shows up they will be escorted off the premises. He encouraged people to come forward with any cases or allegations and even things that just seem like red flags.
Someone responded agreeing and that it is important to put out the fires when they’re small.
Someone had a follow up of “what is the biblical justification for overseers?”
Ray referenced James as an overseer and that James had the last word. He also said that someone has to make the plans and organize. He then said that he used to be Catholic and he definitely won’t be going back to that and that he didn’t like the hierarchy.
The person who asked said “there is a hierarchy of the friends, elders, sister workers, brother workers, older workers, and overseers.”
Ray said that it’s important to have overseers who are led by God and to manage, otherwise every worker would just be doing what they think is right. (Pointing to the sisters workers) he says the sister workers are submissive in their place and are happy to be. Maybe you would like to speak on that? (Motioning for a sister worker to speak).
The sister worker described her relationship with their coworker as a marriage and that she feels her older companion is in a lot of ways in service to her.
A brother worker shared his testimony and love for being a worker and serving the friends. He said that he has respect for the overseers he’s been led by and that they’ve (the overseers he’s been under, not all overseers) always had the kingdom’s best interest at heart.
Someone shared that we are like a family and that being abused by someone in this way is not like being abused by someone from outside. Paraphrasing: There is a different level of trust/betrayal.
Someone spoke on the importance of talking about everything and coming together in unity and focusing on serving God.
Someone responded to the workers defending the hierarchy saying that they weren’t trying to poke holes in anything and that they love this way. That their trust hasn’t been broken by the workers in general by those in power, the overseers. They said that there needs to be reflection and accountability there.
The discussion ended by Ray saying “we’re sorry and thank you”
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It’s good that these have started by the most senior workers in the US East. It’s not clear from these notes what the overall tone was and how the attendees felt afterwards – were they more hopeful and positive about good changes to come or were they more discouraged and frustrated?
On Ray’s point about no wanting to have a Catholic-like hierarchy – that’s exactly what we have now! Ray, as the overseer of the East is like a pope over his region. Like a pope, he has no one to be accountable to, he can’t be removed by church members (ie, friends) or ministers (ie, workers), and he has a broad brush to unilaterally dictate policy.
A major problem we have in the church, and perhaps the biggest and deepest, is that our overseers have no accountability and there is no mechanism for church members to demand and enforce accountability. Church members have no say in policy, unlike Acts 15 where the church members (brethren) were engaged with the ministers on implementing a massively important bit of church doctrine that was written down and shared to the church in writing. That leads to another major problem in that we don’t have any written doctrine but oh so many unwritten church rules (that aren’t the same everywhere) and drift on the whims of the overseer.
Accountability. Accountability. Accountability. The overseers need to be held accountable and that means they can’t be in a pope-like role with no accountability.
Not sure what your first two sentences mean. Do you want your post to be anonymous?
If want post anonymously, just put your handle in the Name part.
You get a free edit today! 🙂
Agreed! Ray is in charge, but doesn’t want to acknowledge that he uses the very same pyramid structure as the catholic church. I feel sorry for the qorkwrs that were put on the spot to say they like being submissive.
To any one expecting change: Ray Hoffman has set himself up to be completely unaccountable to anyone and is not going to give that control and autonomy up for anything. God is causing the scales to dall from the eyes of the saints, and those with honest hearts will be moved by the spirit to reject the false prophets.
He can be removed by us the people!!! They only have this power because we have given it to them. Stop giving money and stop attending any meeting he is in!!!
We need to stop being afraid of workers! If we are afraid when we have done nothing wrong except call out their wrong then this is not Gods house.
We have to be the change. Do not expect them to do it. They are corrupt. They created this problem and they do not want to fix it. We need to work with sincere workers who are willing to promote change and accountability. Sadly Ray is not one of these.
I Cor 14:33 God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all churches of the saints.
Did this meeting bring you peace?
Wings have you got this?
OPEN LETTER FROM ADVOCATES FOR THE TRUTH (SHERI AUTREY, LAUREN ROHS AND CYNTHIA LILES) IN RESPONSE TO ROB NEWMAN’S LETTER OF JUNE 27, 2023
June 29, 2023
Dear Rob,
We have read your well-crafted letter of apology dated June 27, 2023. Your actions speak so loudly, we cannot hear the words you are saying.
You say, “My hope is that every victim will have the opportunity to be heard so that we can help and protect each one. I want to assure you that we are here for you.” Sheri Autrey, Lauren Rohs, and Cynthia Liles have attempted to contact you over 30 times via texts, phone calls, and emails with zero response. If your hope is that every victim will have the opportunity to be heard, are Sheri and Lauren not worthy of help and protection? These two survivors have established an intake system for reports of abuse on behalf of your community, together with private investigator Cynthia Liles. They have also established partnerships to provide funded therapy for victim-survivors as well as other resources. And still, you are not there for Sheri and Lauren – two child sex abuse victims of your community’s negligence.
Sheri VanDermyden Autrey called you on February 4, 2023, to inquire about any knowledge or information you may have related to her case and to also discuss the handling of child sex abuse cases in the fellowship. In that phone call, you told her you had only recently heard about her case, and you stated, “I have known no pedophiles except for Ruben Mata.” This is simply not true. We have talked with several people who confirmed you were aware that John VanDenberg had committed child sex abuse. In that same phone call, you told Sheri, “I want you to get closure,” yet you made no mention of the letters that you have had in your possession for at least the past five years regarding her case.
Subsequent to Sheri’s February 4th telephone call with you, she learned that you were, in fact, in possession of a file regarding her case. She has repeatedly asked you and other workers to provide her with copies of the file. On April 19, 2023, you texted Lauren Rohs that a file of evidence was submitted to the Tulare County Sheriff’s Office on April 18, 2023, along with a case number that happens to be false and does not exist. Lauren texted you to request a copy of the file on Sheri’s behalf. She received no response from you. Sheri followed up with Bret Major (who personally delivered the documents to the Tulare County Sheriff’s Office), as well as you to request a copy, and left a voicemail for you on May 3, 2023. You never returned her call. She emailed you on May 6, 2023, to notify you that you had not complied with her request. Sheri did not receive any response to her email.
Sheri was informed in June that a copy of the file had been sent to her “family”. After requests to her family, she has still not received a forward of your email in its entirety with the original attached documents, which have been withheld from her for 37 years. Why was Sheri’s file sent to her brother, Tim VanDermyden, instead of her, the victim? The file pertains to child sex crimes perpetrated and inflicted on Sheri. Sheri is the one who should be privy to how it was handled in the late 80’s. Sheri should be the one to know how it was covered up. Sheri should be the one who decides if she wants the details of her child sexual abuse to be made public. It is her life. No one else has that right. The lack of ethical behavior and transparency is appalling and shows your utter and complete lack of care for victims.
You have withheld evidence from the very victim who has the right to it more than anyone else, with the exception of law enforcement. You have shown zero integrity, humanity, or courtesy. If you were a man of integrity, you would have immediately sent the file to Sheri when it came into your possession years ago.
For 37 years, Sheri has consistently requested exposure of abuse within The Truth and protection for victims. She has advocated on behalf of herself and all other known and unknown victims. To this day, her requests and pleas are still being ignored.
Rob, you are refusing to listen to victims that have come forward in the past few months. Cynthia has been in contact with hundreds of victims from your fellowship who have called the hotline. The first perpetrator Cynthia notified you of was Rodrigo/Rodney Loera.
Cynthia sent four emails to you regarding Loera (see your emails dated May 22, 2023, May 25, 2023, May 30, 2023, and June 8, 2023.) You didn’t respond to a single email. She also called and left you a message on June 3, 2023, and asked you to call her back. You did not return her call.
We know you, along with Richard Denherder, have been telling the friends Cynthia didn’t give any facts regarding Rodrigo/Rodney Loera. You did, however, receive additional information from someone within the fellowship regarding another child who had been abused by Loera. Once you received that information, you apparently decided to act. You called John Foster in Montana to see if he would help you take care of the situation with Loera. You found out John was communicating with Advocates For The Truth, and you cut off communication with him.
You and Richard Denherder then sent a disparaging email about John to Scott Rauscher. In the meantime, while you were refusing to engage with us, we learned of more Loera victims. Not once have you reached out to us to inquire about the victims reporting to us. We are currently providing therapy resources for these victims in South America, most of whom are still in your fellowship – yet your actions have made it clear you do not want to protect and support the victims who are reporting to us.
We also understand you and Richard have told many of the friends that “you’ve had problems with Cynthia.” Cynthia talked to you one time, on March 24, 2023. You expressed an interest in working with her and told her, “I think we could use your help.” That is the only contact you’ve had with Cynthia. Please let us know about the “problems you’ve had with Cynthia.”
Rob, we have heard and read that you are using a “scaling system” to determine levels of abuse. We understand you have even used this scaling system in conversations with survivors of child sex abuse. This is despicable, reprehensible, detestable, and heinous behavior towards survivors of child sex abuse. You must stop. You are not qualified to determine, counsel, or narrate regarding the trauma inflicted on victims.
Your endorsement of “risk assessments” for known pedophiles and individuals with allegations is another act of your complicity and perpetuation of abuse and crimes within your community. “Credible accusations” should be the standard. Sex offender risk assessments are used in the adjudication process – for sentencing, custody level, and conditions of community service – and they are relatively unsuccessful in terms of their predictive accuracy. (Department of Justice Office of Sex Offender Sentencing, Apprehending, Monitoring and Tracking.) None of the cases in your letter of June 20, 2023 have been adjudicated because none of the perpetrators were reported to law enforcement as they should have been when the allegations were first brought to the attention of the workers. Your actions show you are advocating for perpetrators instead of survivors and children.
Rob, you state in your letter that your ignorance on the matter of child sex abuse is due to a lack of empathy. Empathy is not required to believe a crime has been committed. You also state, “I acknowledge my former ignorance concerning child sexual abuse and I will continue this learning process.” There is no “learning process” required to know the difference between right and wrong.
Best,
Sheri Autrey, Lauren Rohs, and Cynthia Liles
http://www.advocatesforthetruth.com
“Ray zeroed in on one report. He painted a picture of the reporter being untrustworthy. He said “I’m not aware of anything I’ve been involved with with CSA. If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.” ”
This very much bothers me. Ray was involved specifically in moving Ira Hobbs and Leslie White to various fields knowing they had performed multiple sexual assaults.
If his “prove it!” attitude infiltrates to other brothers when the victims are repeatedly accused of telling lies about their experiences, then my hope for real change and accountability in the ministry has just completely died.
I also have questions.
Who took and shared these notes?
Were the notes vetted for accuracy by others (workers and friends) who were present?
How was the feeling during & after the meeting? i.e., was the meeting spirit led? What was the feeling after?
I know honest mistakes have been made. What I see in this meeting with Ray appears to be an unbecoming haughtiness in this overseer of overseer that is unacceptable in our fellowship.
Exactly, there is no dispute that Ray knew for YEARS about Ira Hobbs being a CSA offender, but didnt warn the church when he knew about the victim’s. The qualifier about CSA is odd, too – was Ray implying that he wouldn’t resign if he was proven to cover up SA on an adult, only CSA? Ray, it is time to move along before you destroy the faith and undermine the testimonies of all the saints and other workers.
You bet that Ray doesn’t care about SA. He knew about the workers recently removed, but didn’t do anything about it until forced to. I know of two workers known for SA still in the work, but since there is no outside pressure regarding them, Ray is not removing them.
There is a lot to be concerned about here. Let’s unpack a few things.
“If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.”
This is exactly what narcissistic guilty people say all the time: “prove it”, knowing that is a high enough bar to stop the discussion as most people don’t have the tools or time to prove something like that. Also, to attribute it to one person only is another gaslighting tactic typical of a narcissist. Many voices have been uplifted on this.
The Leslie White story has been going on a long time, yet Leslie is still doing some guest preaching? What about Ira Hobbs getting moved around, Did Ray consent to that?
“Ray referenced James as an overseer and that James had the last word. He also said that someone has to make the plans and organize. He then said that he used to be Catholic and he definitely won’t be going back to that and that he didn’t like the hierarchy.”
He doesn’t like the RCC hierarchy but really loves the 2×2 hierarchy where he gets to be an unaccountable dictator. Our system is worse than the RCC system due to the high concentration of power with one unchecked individual.
“Ray responded to this by saying that that is a great suggestion and that he fears traveling alone. That he doesn’t like it when his name shows up alone on a list. (doesn’t he make the list?)”
If he travels alone and puts his name alone on the list, he is doing it intentionally as he makes all final decisions. Do we have another Dean Bruer here? Big red flag here. Watch what he does, not what he says.
“Ray said that it’s important to have overseers who are led by God and to manage, otherwise every worker would just be doing what they think is right. (Pointing to the sisters workers) he says the sister workers are submissive in their place and are happy to be. Maybe you would like to speak on that? (Motioning for a sister worker to speak)
The sister worker described her relationship with their coworker as a marriage and that she feels her older companion is in a lot of ways in service to her.”
This misogyny is not only something to be concerned about, but to put a sister worker on the spot to confirm it is no less than bullying. Did he ask her in advance if she was ok with his misogyny?
Ray Hoffman does not have the good character and humility we need in a shepard – this is someone needing to feed their own ego and have say over everything and everyone. What does Ray think would happen if decisions were made by a group of 120 people like in Acts 1:15 – 26? This isn’t about being able to have someone be responsible, this is about Ray trying to control. Wouldn’t a group like Acts 1 have been able to take action sooner against Ira, Leslie, Dean, and [insert the names of all the other abusive workers here]? Ray lacks the good judgment to be trusted with the responsibility of the eastern USA and Candada, and his self-serving statements about what God wants are illusions designed to prey on a trusting and loving flock.
I would say that if decisions were being made, over the last 90 years, by a group of senior men and woman of the laity, with a few workers thrown in for good measure, we would not be experiencing this kind of debacle today
This hits the nail on the head. Having a sinle person making decisions with no accountability will always breed abuse, favoritism, and self-indulgence.
We have a very sick church….ego led in too many instances. Shocking to hear someone act like they were “clueless” to CSA. Too many issues to count….with cleansing starting at the top.
RAY HOFFMAN, this phrase from the townhall is further evidence “Ray zeroed in on one report. He painted a picture of the reporter being untrustworthy. He said “I’m not aware of anything I’ve been involved with with CSA. If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.” Ray please at least try to be honest – you knowingly moved Leslie White around and gave him responsibility again per yesterday’s post. What you are doing right now is called “gaslighting”. It is not honest. What you did before is move Leslie White around. You have probably done this on many occasions. I am one of MANY calling for you to step down.
So even the threat of jail won’t deter him? Good to know… This is outrageous. Our friends need trustworthy ministers, not oblivious people with self-interests that are prioritized over the needs of the church.
Hoffman said “Sister workers are submissive in their place and are happy to be”. This type of attitude toward women and girls is cave man thinking and is exactly what leads to CSA/SA crimes in the 2x2s and elsewhere in society. Totally disgusting.
I wonder how happy Morgan Bainbridge was to be submissive to her abusive co workers and the be sexually assaulted by another one???? Good grief! He is as narcissistic as they come!
Every word Ray said seemed to be carefully scripted by his attorney.
WINGS, this is not for publishing as a comment but rather a msg to those who run this site.
There is a common misconception that none of you are current members , rather all are ex members. See above post:
“They also noted that the only information about this topic is from a website run by people who no longer go to meeting.”
This seems to be an impression that is reinforced by some countries workers/overseers in encouraging people that you are not neutral and cannot be trusted. I think it would be helpful if you made a post refuting that. I have seen you sometimes put it in comments, but that is not widely seen. With the readership you have right now, it would have huge impact if it was a blog post.
I know you wish to remain anonymous, but doing this would not affect that. Just a thought to consider …..
As an Admin here, I am not anonymous. I am also Admin11. WINGS is administered by 7 professing people and 1 legacy member until recently professing.
That should be irrelevant and I will explain. WINGS is “church-neutral”, so it is policy to neither denigrate nor promote the church. It has been that way since 2009 when I became a member. WINGS is focused on CSA/SA within the F&W environment. That we are professing should not give comfort to insider professing people hoping that WINGS will be biased in favour of the meetings/workers because it is not. What matters is truth, ethics and the protection of children, adults and victims.
So there may be some value in making a static post on “who we are” but I wouldn’t want to give professing people any impression that we are anything other than neutral. In a sense, our activities are ultimately pro-church in that needed changes that will give rise to child safety will also result in a safer, healthier church experience.
Thanks for the explanation. That is exactly what I meant in that your intent is to be church-neutral (you have better words than me to describe it). The inference I have read from some comments here and elsewhere is that ALL exs are bitter and want to destroy the church (not the belief of all admittedly and certainly not mine). I believe you do an excellent job of being neutral. But as I said it was merely “just a thought to consider “, I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to do your job!
Posting my comment on here as you did (which I didn’t intend) will probably get reasonable exposure anyway 🙂
Believe the time may have come for a split in our “fellowship” as there are clearly two strong opposing views. One view is that there have been wrongs in the past and the workers are genuinely trying to address. Another view is that there have been wrongs in the past but without many and widespread changes (no overseers, accountability, no hierarchy, women’s rights, etc. etc.) there are still many wrongs. Folks who feel changes are needed (who apparently are part of the fellowship) refer to us as “the church” with “members”. Really explains why there are opposing views. Not sure how there can be unity and true fellowship when the 2 groups are so different.
Once again, these narcissistic manipulators need to understand they are no longer in charge. It’s time to step up and away from the current brain washed system and run this from the perspective of “We the People”. The workers are servants of God to the people and not the people’s bosses.
Elders and others need to step up and put and end to this current system.
Sven,
Amen and Hallyloooya my brotha!!!
Many comments refer to workers as our shepherds. David said in Psalm 23 “the LORD is my shepherd”. John 10:11 Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd”. If we are not listening to the voice of Christ and following Christ, we don’t have the advantage of following the true shepherd. Hirelings are to feed and protect the sheep as instructed by the shepherd; and many of our workers have faithfully done that. Jesus also said in this same chapter what the hireling would do when he saw a wolf coming. When the hireling gets an appetite for the lambs and the sheep it is time for the shepherd to replace the hireling. I pray that God, in His mercy, will do that today for His sheep.
What I see from Ray Hoffman is a total lack of humility. Claiming that he is essentially led by God. His “prove it” attitude is pure pride. His pride has made him a blind guide. He doesn’t see that he isn’t being asked to step down, he’s being told to and if he was humble he would on his own for the good of the fellowship. His submissive comment regarding the sister workers is sickening. When workers start acting like Kings rather than servants it time to boot them out. Take away his field car, credit cards, cash and bed because a jail cell is more fitting for this snake.
Unlike EVERY single reply that I have just read, I was ACTUALLY at the meeting, and was one of the ones that voiced my concerns.
We were all gathered, everyone was around, no “head table” and all of the workers did not sit together. Barry and Ray were across the room from the other workers.
I never heard a hymn sung, if it was, it was before I arrived at 6:45.
The account is not 100% factual, but is a general overview of the topics covered. It is fairly representative and unbiased.
The tone and phrases, and huge ASSUMPTIONS made by the people replying to the post are in NO WAY accurate. The emotions, the relief in having a forum, the respect and listening attitude of the workers, the measured but pointed questions from the fellowship, and the HOPE that this was now being freely spoken about and addressed, are missing from the original post, and wildly missed from the commenters who were not there.
Read the information on these posts, sometimes it’s the only source. But please read it with logic and discernment, and be very wary of the commenters who make huge leaps of speculation, fueled by their own bias.
I refuse to address that crowd on a line by line basis.
I will add my own feelings after the meeting, if for no other reason, because I was actually there.
I am hopeful. Not because the problems are solved, but because they are being addressed. We are better for this, because we know. Knowing, means this stops immediately, and righteous people will assure we do not slide back into the old ways.
We have leaders who are willing to take responsibility. I believe Ray to be one of them. He acknowledged the problem, was willing to fight to make it right. There was no “prove it” tone, AT ALL, it was an assurance that things would not be covered up. He made statements that I would have liked to see others there make. He articulated the damage done in the past, he stated clearly about the need to hear and help victims, and he offered assurances that the coverup, shaming, and shuffling would not happen with him.
If you are in the camp of the “ throw out the overseers”, IMHO, you could pick far better targets.
Thank you for your time and critical thinking.
I don’t understand this type of thinking that we need to believe what Ray now says he will do! My thought is he had his chance, he has done a terrible job with transparency and covering up. Another thought any normal person whose name has been tainted would be willing to step aside for the good of the Fellowship.
Interested in nderstanding how you felt like the problems were being addressed. It seemed like Ray didn’t say anything about how he was going to deal with LW, what made him think he ahould let LW participate in meetings, or why he would tell victims that reporting to the police was the only way to get LW out. Those are not godly actions, and not mere mistakes.
Eric, thank you for your participation in that meeting and your assessment of it. Much appreciated.
To the best of your recollection, is the following quotation fairly accurate?
“If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.”
Thank you!
Thank you Eric!
I was at the Rhode Island / Massachusetts townhall tonight and it was similar in tone as noted by Eric. Whoever wrote up the account of the Milford townhall is clearly bitter or has a hidden agenda. Keep it factual or call this site WingsforFalsehoods
Thank you for your attendance Rob.
Much appreciated.
To the best of your recollection, is the following quotation from Ray fairly accurate?
“If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.”
Thank you!
Rob, why would you insult the note-taker like that? Perhaps you should republish using your notes. We’d like to see them. Thanks
@Rob: it’s always good to get more than one viewpoint, appreciate the others who have expressed theirs also.
Perhaps the writer of this account has been thrust into the struggle of overcoming bitterness by actions of CSA/SA? It’s not a peaceful place to be, it’d certainly be a struggle many of us never asked to fight and wish we never would have experienced/fought/still fight.
I’m trying to understand this though and am asking this question in all sincerity in an attempt to understand, in the struggle of my own heart: We read in the previous post on LW that RH gave him place to speak in GMs this year despite knowing he had been removed for CSA/SA. How can we trust actions like this are lead by the Spirit, when it seems impossible the Spirit would have told RH it was ok? And if that’s the Spirit speaking through RH, why would we want to serve under such evilness? I understand we’re all human and can make poor decisions, but condoning actions by allowing LW to go back to his former role seems incomprehensible. It’s also impossible to believe LW’s innocent when so many stories have so many parallel actions, when the pain of factual accounts are palpable years after assaults occurred. LW could (should) have done jail time, he should be registered as a SA and therefore legally be limited in his contacts. It seems most anyone would have understood he should not have that part even without consulting God.
Many of us have family no longer part of this fellowship who are reading these posts and asking us why we’re staying in this fellowship when such decisions have been made? How do we answer that question? We’re taught not to question, but shouldn’t an incorruptible faith be able to withstand questions if founded on the rock? How can we trust true Spirit lead decisions are made in the future, that true change is occurring? Where do we look for evidence that’s beyond the word of overseers who have deferred to the perpetrators rather than the victims?
I was also there, I would also agree with Eric in that this account isn’t 100% correct.
No hymn, not that it is of huge importance.
But I suspect that the person that wrote the report wasn’t actually there.
To suggest that Ray arrogantly said “prove it” is jumping it by a long shot.
There are things that I would like to have heard, there are others that possibly could have been left out.
Not because it was necessarily wrong, but not 100% focused on the issue at hand.
I feel that this is a huge step in the right direction.
As far as Ray is concerned I am prepared to give him a chance to do what is right.
I believe that he has the ability to do it.
We will see.
And he might need all our persuasions,
but also our prayers!!!
Ps: I am going to try to remain anonymous at this time because of my immediate family.
I am preparing to disclose.
Thank you, Eric for your thoughts on this since you were actually present, it is much appreciated.
Thanks Eric for your comments. I have known Ray for over 30 years and trust his guidance. I saw how well he cared -responded and was available to talk by phone years ago in FL at our home to a gentleman in our meeting who was concerned about the beginning of “truth”. This man circulated letters and held a sign at the entrance of our FL convention location.
Perhaps consider the possibility that you have only seen one side of the man.
Thank you, Eric.
Wow:
Ray Hoffman said that “it’s important to have overseers who are led by God and to manage, otherwise every worker would just be doing what they think is right.”
Is Hoffman suggesting that workers are not or cannot be lead by God to do what’s right?
Is Hoffman suggesting that only overseers are lead by God?
How do Hoffman’s actions as a man and as an overseer stack up against a standard of “Lead by God”?
When many others are being lead by God to a different conclusion, isn’t that reasonable grounds to conclude the Hoffman isn’t lead by God, or is willfully disregarding Gods leading?
I also was wondering why Ray would say that he was led by God but the other workers aren’t. They would just do what they thought was right (maybe led by the Spirit?) Edward Cooney was kicked out of the Truth because he refused to let another worker tell him where to share the gospel.
Yes, in the beginning of the fellowship the hierarchy wasn’t as developed and workers had the freedom to preach where they felt lead by the Spirit. An older worker who knew EC and the first preachers in this way complained that “the way had become too organized for its own good.” He preferred to still preach as lead by the Spirit.
Now we have a strong hierarchy which pretends it doesn’t exist. Most friends don’t know that there are overseers of overseers. The reason for secrecy is to give the appearance of no hierarchy (“we are not an organization “) and to avoid transparency and accountability of top overseers.
Thanks Eric for speaking up.
I have noticed a deterioration in general of comments made on Wings in the last 6 weeks.
At one time it was quite soul searching and constructive, offering different thoughts or observations to each other in a non offensive way. Kindness and consideration was evident.
I understand people are angry, however there is no excuse for attacking each other, that reflects some of the behavior of those we are appalled with.
Now I find that a lot of people just totally pick at every word and nuance. There is a lot of abusive comments which are continually reflected on and on.
This site should be about people having the courage to share constructively and from the heart without the fear of being slammed.
I have found that I am engaging less and less because of this and disengaging as it is distracting from the important focus of CSA. I am sure lots of others are too.
THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.
At times I could have been better with what I have written – clouded by emotion – we are not all wordsmiths.
Please show kindness and compassion to each other, most of us want the same thing and are learning to understand and express our thoughts that have been suppressed for years.
Completely agree, I have noticed the deterioration in the tone of comments of late.
I will take that as sound advice, and try to apply it to myself.
Speak the truth in love, with temperance.(sometimes I can fall into old habits speaking the truth with a sledgehammer.
Be ye angry and sin not.
I don’t know anything about what Ray has done or been since he left Texas, but while he was here he ousted Ira Hobbs. I commend him for that.
Ray ousted Ira only because of pressure applied on the ministry to do so.
Since then, he has maligned the sister worker who was raped by Leslie White, said that “poor Leslie is now not in the work because of what seem to be false allegations,” kept Ira and Leslie in meetings, had Leslie speak in Gospel Meetings, refused to address allegations of SA perpetrated by other workers.
I have one question. Is it true that Ray had Leslie White speak in a gospel meeting in the last few months? If the answer is no, good. If the answer is yes, he needs to step down and out of the work now – today!!!!!
It is true. Read the letter written by victims of LW.
Victor’s letter to Ray:
Also reading the accounts yesterday of Leslie White and Ray’s name mentioned a couple places in making a promise to the Victim that Leslie would not be in the work, and then to back track and have Leslie speaking in his own gospel meeting when he knew enough of the extend of LW depravity to make a morally correct decision. I know we want to think the best of people like Ray, but the actions are speaking, and so are the words from the notes in this post and the LW post.
There are a lot of feelings within the church: sorrow, frustration, disappointment, thankfulness for Jesus, hope, discomfort, grief, and so many other emotions. I appreciate the expressions of support for victims and a common agreement this cannot be tolerated. While not everyone will agree and be part of the solution, the thoughts here need to be expressed and acknowledged. Keep in mind that Satan is our enemy, not this website, our friends, or the “deterioration” one may perceive. Our friends don’t need a lengthy list of scriptures to know that CSA and SA are bad.
The article says that Ray said there had to be overseers because “otherwise every worker would just be doing what they think is right.”
This bothered me… every worker indeed SHOULD be doing what they think is right. This would be exactly what a spirit led ministry would look like. A hierarchy appointed by man to organize is a foundational problem for starters.
My Father was born in Ireland and has been dead for 20 years.
He always said that there should be a team of 3 in each area administered by Overseers.
I firmly believe that to this day. There was wisdom in it being a collective leadership.
He also believed in Elders stepping up and administering things within the body of the Church – The Workers being responsible for Gospel outreach.
This is scriptural was his comment.
If a couple of these comments that he made are accurate, then Ray reinforces the necessity of that.
Agreed Sadfriend
I believe God desires His family to grow stronger in faith by being led by the Spirit and have far less reliance in the form, function and the observed hierarchy of the workers.
A few thoughts regarding Ray’s reliance on the example that we have in James as his justification for the existence of the Overseer role and power.
The topic of whether the Gentiles must be circumcised to be saved was discussed among the apostles and elders of the church at Jerusalem (Acts 15:12-21). After much discussion, Peter made a statement and afterwards James summed up the situation and supported it with a quotation from Amos 9:11-12. The church agreed with James verbal summary of the situation and implemented the group’s collective recommendation that was achieved through broad consensus. Also, it has been pointed out that on this occasion the issue was brought to “the apostles and elders” and not to James and the resultant letter was written on behalf of “the apostles and elders” and not James (Acts 15:2, 23). It appears to be a misguided leap to perceive James’ part in this discussion among elders as “having the last word” and consequently as evidence he was an “Overseer” vs. an equal, who simply happened to be the last one to speak in the course of achieving a consensus.
There is no evidence that James had any rank or title above the other elders. They were not his subordinates. They were not his staff or his assistants. He wasn’t the church’s “senior” worker or elder. There is no biblical evidence that proves that James was the head of the church at Jerusalem.
There is however a pattern of shared leadership in New Testament churches. It seems as though the believers at Jerusalem were led first by the apostles, and then elders were added to the leadership team (Acts 6:2; 11:30; 15:2, 4, 6, 22-23; 16:4). In fact, Peter and John referred to themselves as elders (1 Pet. 5:1; 2 Jn. 1; 3 Jn. 1). Judas (Barsabbas) and Silas were other elders in the church at Jerusalem (Acts 15:22).
There does not appear to be any example of a prominent leader at any church mentioned in the New Testament, except for Diotrephes who wanted “preeminence” and was described as doing evil (3 Jn. 9-11). For example, there were five prophets and teachers, which would have comprised the eldership team, at Antioch – Barnabas, Simeon (called Niger), Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen and Saul (Acts 13:1). Teams of elders also led the churches in Lystra, Iconium, Pisidian Antioch, Perga, Ephesus, Philippi and Crete (Acts 14:21-24; 20:17; Phil. 1:1; Tit. 1:5).
Other instances of shared leadership in the New Testament include the fact that Jesus taught 12 apostles to establish the Church, and seven men (the precursors of deacons) were appointed to care for the needs of the Jewish widows (Acts 6:1-6). In fact, there is no evidence in Scripture of a hierarchy of authority among the apostles, the church elders or the church deacons. There is no evidence in Scripture of senior workers of churches. Instead it appears the New Testament pattern is always shared leadership.
Yes! My thoughts exactly. No more control by man lets be Spirit lead instead!!
I agree, Shannon. If we are all led by the Spirit, then why is Ray scared that “every worker would just be doing what they think is right”?
A hierarchy is necessary only if the fellowship does not believe that the Spirit alone is powerful enough to hold things together; the workers think they have to fill in where the Spirit “fails”!
So long ago it became clear to me that the glue that holds us together is not at all the Spirit, but the “power” and fear of the workers.
It is this interference by man that hinders the Spirit and causes the corruption that is being revealed today. Why did we ever accept this culture of secrecy for so long?
If the notes are correct, this was what someone stated:
The person who asked said “there is a hierarchy of the friends, elders, sister workers, brother workers, older workers, and overseers.”
Then Ray Hoffman responded:
“(Pointing to the sisters workers) he says the sister workers are submissive in their place and are happy to be. Maybe you would like to speak on that? (Motioning for a sister worker to speak).
The sister worker described her relationship with their coworker as a marriage and that she feels her older companion is in a lot of ways in service to her.”
Ray definitely stated that women workers are happy to be submissive to men in the work.
Then the sister answered with a response that had nothing to do with women being submissive to men, which was what Ray asked her to confirm. Huh???
Anyway this actually confirms what I wrote in the article, “The Power Dynamics of Sexual Abuse”. I do not for one moment believe that there can be a consensual relationship with a brother and sister in the work, unless they both leave the work and get married.
The power imbalance is to great for a consensual relationship to exist. If something does happen, it’s all on him, because he has the power. Even if the woman initiated it, it is still all on the one who has the power. If the woman had the power, it would be all on her. But we all know that women in the work do not have the power.
The woman is blameless and guiltless, it’s all on him. Even if he says “she was dressed ______”, or “she tempted me”. This does not matter, he cannot shift the responsibility to her.
There are statements on this web site stating that Ray Hoffman allegedly allowed Leslie White to speak in a gospel meeting not very long ago which is outrageous, but it apparently was allowed. It is a completely offensive cover-up for someone put out of the work for CSA. But one thing we can rest assured of is the Lord saw it all and knows the truth of what is going on and just like His message in Revelations 2:2 assured them: “I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.”
The timing of the LW exposee letter could not have been more perfect!
Here is what Ray and the other overseers don’t understand: as Christians, we are committed to being honest, upright, compassionate, and kind among other fruits we bear. These instances of ongoing abuse will not be tolerated by Christians. It is clear that the overseers do not realize that we are not going to accept ongoing abuse of any kind. We need to honor the victim’s by putting effective systems in place to prevent these abuses in the future. Our souls and the souls of our children are worth this effort!
So well said, Becky. Thank you.
The entire ministry looks different now.
It is past time to remove the evil from among us.
Astounded. Becky; The 2×2’s are not Christians. They follow the ministry and Doctrine of Jesus in his flesh; only to Jews. Math.15:24. Jesus told the Ruler who asked what he must do to have eternal life? Matthew 19: 16-:22. Moses Law! and grab Math.19:28 Jesus promise to the 12 apostles: is promise to the 12 to sit on 12 thrones Judging the 12 TRIBES of Israel. Jewish not Christians!
AND Jesus sent the 12 to observe and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you. Math.28:20.
Acts 2: confirms the 12 apostles were obedient to only go to Nation of Israel with the Good News of the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand. Read the Doctrine of the 12 “Apostles” Acts 2:42-46. ALL of this is to and of Jews.
Even as late as Acts 21:20-21 James the now spokesman for the 12 declares; Thousands of Jews believe and are all zealous of the LAW of Moses.
Acts 11: 26-:27 It was only when Saul preached in Antioch for a year that the learners(disciples)were first called Christians.
Ephesians 3:1-9 Paul only preached the Good News of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which is NOT God’s promises to his chosen Nation of Israel.
Becky, thanks for raising that! These men are not the Almighty God, and we do not serve them. We have supported them because of our love for God, but clearly they are separating themselves from God. I hope they repent before it is too late!
According to the notes posted here, Ray Hoffmann said:
“it’s important to have overseers who are led by God and to manage, otherwise every worker would just be doing what they think is right.”
What God said to us through Jeremiah and repeated by Paul is:
““This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.””
Jeremiah 31:33-34 NIV
Astounded Anonymous: Your reference to the prophet Jeremiah is interesting. The first advice in study of scripture is Context;’ the second rule of study is Context; the third rule of Bible Study is YEP, you guessed it “Context”.
Jeremiah 31:30 draws a picture of the way it was under the control of a King in
God’s Nation of Israel at that time.
Everyone shall die for HIS OWN “INIQUITY”. WOW; God’s Law!
However, as Jeremiah was to prophecy( to foretell future) to that Chosen Nation of God
:31 draws a picture of God’s promise to Israel when MAN has no
control
and only the obiedient will be in God’s Chosen Nation in Land
of Israel God shall make a “NEW” covenant with Israel and
with Judah,
:32 NOT according to the covenant I made with their
fathers. ….etc. which they brake!….
:33-34 Describes the NEW Covenant. — A promise to Israel’s
future for THAT Nation of Israel. NO Gentiles have that promise; except those who convert and become a proselyte to Judaism.
Paul’s quote in 2 Corinthians 6:16 and :17-:18 is reference to Jeremiah 31:9 and Paul is admonishing these believers to withdraw from their old life style in the idolatrous temples of their day. Be ye separate – which here means to draw boundaries… For the “believers” idolatry is ‘out of bounds’. Don’t do it1
Jeremiah 31:9 God promises a future for the obedient of Nation of Israel; at the FUTURE TIME when that promised “New Covenant’ with the Nation of Israel by God is in effect. THAT has not happened YET!
So, yes, that would be a solution BUT right now, MAN has control of HIS OWN lies and are using them to fulfill his own lusts, while misleading their own congregation.
Thank you for that reference! So confirming! ❤
Jeremiah 23 seems to apply to the current situation. “Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.” and verses 10 – 12, “For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right. For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord. Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.”
I find it a bit amusing that the same ones who are calling for more accountability are now wanting all of the workers to have a free-for-all. If they were all spirit led wouldn’t that be wonderful? But those that have abused their place have ruined all of the workers’ reputations. Now without any accountability at all – now you’re going to trust them? Every organization other than a very small mom and pop company depends on a level of hierarchy for productivity and accountability. Can you imagine if all of the workers were constantly in meetings with each other to determine who would do what? Having a secretary – overseer- is rather practical.
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Regarding Leslie White – the truth is that there was no CSA reported, and the SA allegations never went anywhere legally – the posting makes that quite clear. It’s not that I don’t believe the ladies – I do – I think Leslie always was sleazy – I never trusted anything he shared on the platform or one-on-one. But the reality is that there isn’t enough hard evidence to convict him. I think that there were enough allegations for him to be put out of the work. But to treat him as a criminal when he has never been convicted – is treading on risky ground. I personally don’t think that Ray did right by letting Leslie speak in a gospel meeting – but it’s not like he let Leslie be active again – he’s not staying in homes. It was bad judgment on Ray’s part, but it wasn’t illegal and it wasn’t done with a cold blooded desire to hurt women. So to judge that Ray is an unfit overseer based on this – I just find it rather amusing – and then you want every worker to be able to do their own thing. God help us – Leslie would be putting himself back in the work.
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I don’t know Ray, but I remember something he said as a visiting worker. I found it an interesting statement and as a result never forgot it. I remember it was after he relieved Ira from the work, so he’d been an overseer for a while. He said, “I used to think I’d have a lot more control over my activities when I became an overseer. I had no idea that it would require the most submission of all – submit, submit, submit, that’s about all I do now.” So I don’t know if Ray really submits all of the time, but to me it tells me that he wasn’t singling out the sisters as the ones to be submissive and the brothers as not. Because from what he spoke at that convention, he himself feels that he must be constantly submitted. I think what he was trying to manifest, is that the sisters submit by choice through their own desire – NOT because someone forced or guilted them into it. I think he was giving them a lot of credibility and I admire him for this.
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Filling up these pages with vitriol on side jabs that are not ever going to get solved takes away from the real issues at hand – it just seems you’re doing it for your own entertainment at this point. I do come back every so often, but it’s just taken over by those who don’t understand that they are doling out emotional abuse which, of course, is not CSA, but it is harmful, traumatic and triggering for those who suffered emotional abuse as a means of grooming and at any other time.
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Don’t become abusive just because you were a victim. Do whatever you can do to stop the cycle!! There are probably a whole lot of things contributing to your bitterness, and you likely need to feel heard. Most of us here are struggling with this. But you aren’t going to get heard by being hateful.
Many valid points…
Astounded to The Trolls Dear uninformed and ignorant: Leslie White beat the charges with your money. Statute of Limitations. The victims are very vocal on this site with heart breaking examples. You have a need of watching the utter destruction of his victims by his actions. You need sworn Testimony from those who covered and moved him from state to state? You need to see and watch the victims inability to function as they are destroyed and unable to function enough to be and raise their family without destroying the ones who love them the most? You do not understand their inability to function in a mature and nurturing human ability has been destroyed by a suave, dashing, twisted non-human for their own lust. He destroyed their future. You have no right to add condemnation.
Astounded, Please reread what I wrote. I think you’ll notice that I need neither convincing nor sworn testimony. And you made my point. Leslie’s not a convicted felon. Maybe he should be, but he isn’t. The whole point of this was not if Leslie was guilty but rather if Ray was guilty. My opinion was that Ray was not wise to let Leslie preach. But Ray didn’t break any laws, nor was it evident that Ray did what he did for the sake of creating more victims. I personally don’t know Ray – perhaps he truly has committed some egregious violations, but so far all I have read here and in comments for other posts amounts to nothing more than trolling. It seems he’s willing to work with us – why not try to support him and encourage him so that we can truly accomplish the cleansing that we all agree that we need.
There is a lot of apparent Stockholm Syndrome among those who are defending the status quo ante.
Essentially, the syndrome occurs when captives begin to identify with their captors and even embrace the captor’s cause. In extreme cases, the captives even help the captor take up arms against those who would rescue the captives.
Even after being successfully rescued, Stockholm Syndrome sufferers will feel anger toward the rescuers, and will deny the clear evidence of the captors criminal and/or evil acts.
This syndrome can sometimes take years of professional therapy to reverse.
Dear Fascinated Onlooker, perhaps if you were inside looking in you would see what there is to hold on to. Accusing me of Stockholm syndrome is a type of trolling that edges into gaslighting, thus making my point. I would rather that we all love each other. But love seems to be the ignorant and uninformed choice these days.
If the fact that a pervert and a RAPIST has been invited to “preach the Gospel “ by your top overseer doesn’t shock and horrify you, then you are in the right Church with Ray at the helm.
What is criminal or determined in court shouldn’t be our only guide. What is spiritually and morally sound should be the primary concern.
Astounded Shocked and horrified; Thank You. Each person needs to put on the Armour of God. Part of which is the ‘helmet’ of “Salvation” and the “sword of the Spirit” – which IS the WORD of God. Read 1 Corinthians 5:15-:16-:17. Yes, this is shocking. All we have ever know is Jesus in his fleshly – earthly ministry to bring that Nation of Israel back to God. AND the 2×2’s follow the 12 apostles the examples their ministry – read Acts 2:14 – :36.
And their Doctrine – Acts 2:42-46. Do you recognize this? 2×2’s follow the 12.
OH, it is so brutal to learn what we have trusted in for our very salvation is NOT scriptural and have allowed for at least 90 years to destroy their very converts present and futures without change or remorse. This is not of God. Oh, please, learn God’s Word concerning what God’s Word teaches about “BUT NOW” when God turned from that Chosen Nation of Israel with their Gospel of a perfect Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. And desperately pray God will give you understanding.
Accountability and acting consistent with one’s conscience are not mutually exclusive. People should be expected to exercise good judgment and when something is wrong, an individual needs to speak up and refuse to do anything illegal, immoral, or unethical. Conversely, not everyone will exercise good judgment. As such, there needs to be some system of accountability to prevent abuses and improper self-interests from controlling. The older brothers have existed in a power vacuum for too long and do not understand the burdens of life. They should be required to cycle out of the work every 5 years and spend the the next five years supporting themselves so they understand what the lives of the friends are like.
John, are you willing to cycle into the work for those five years to fill the void left? Where are we supposed to get all of these workers?
TRT, few lives would be negatively impacted by 1/2 of the workers being on sabbatical. The Friends could step up and help if needed.
Watchman. Are you reading the comments where people are complaining because workers aren’t doing things to help them, be in touch with them, etc? There are two lines of complaints on this and other sites.
1. Workers are bad, lazy people, they need to get jobs.
2. The workers never take time for people that really need them.
So are you also speaking for group 2 when you say that? Also some of these people are also complaining that elders and friends are also ignoring people in need. So do you think taking workers out of their fields is going to make group 2 more happy or less happy?
Where are these friends stepping in to help out?
You know whose lives would ne negatively affected by half of the workers being on a sabbatical? The other workers. The honest, true workers who are trying their hardest to try to make everyone happy and trying to help the lambs and sheep and trying to go around to all of their contacts. They are already near the breaking point and then you want to make their load impossible.
But you are the “watchman”. Are you also watching out for true, honest workers?
TRT, it is well established that sabbaticals result in reinvigoration, greater efficiency and greater effectiveness. How the cycle would work best is subject to debate.
Better yet, 7 years maximum in the work with a few who are good trainers to stay a maximum of 12 years. You might be surprised at how many young Friends step up for a stint in the Work.
Watchman, that sounds well and good, but who is going to give up 7 years of child rearing, saving money, going on cruises, and relations in order to be in the work? I guess we could try to force people in for 2 years, like the Mormons, but don’t we want a ministry that is actually effective? It takes a number of years before you actually love the work.
I say 4 weeks vacation every year should be normalized and encouraged. But again, people are already upset about how much workers are out of the field because of special meetings, preps and conventions. So most people and overseers would not agree to 4 weeks vacation. In our state, the workers never get a vacation, maybe once in 6 years for a few days to visit family.
And I have seen sparky comments about how young workers are out hiking, playing ball, etc. So some people think workers should have their nose to the grindstone 24/7/365. But then they complain about workers being lazy.
You definitely can’t win them all!
I would love to see the local sisters get a break, but their love for souls keeps them working like dogs. Their fields are getting bigger, and they have so much interest and friends and young folks that they care about.
They actually care. I can only imagine how it would be if they had half the workers on the staff. They would work themselves to death to try to meet all of the needs.
But go ahead, try to turn this into an organization with ministers who really don’t care.
“But go ahead, try to turn this into an organization with ministers who really don’t care.”
With gaslighting like that, it is difficult to take your posts seriously.
Gaslighting again? Do you know what that is? If so, be so kind as to let me know how I was gaslighting? I am telling the truth, how is that gaslighting?
If you want to shut down dialog, throwing around words like that is the way to do it!
I know my intentions, but you have misunderstood me. I guess I used the wrong words. Sorry.
To the trolls: I’ve read & re-read your post trying to understand all your points. I understand the vitriol being ineffective (and agree) but the part about every worker doing what they want is confusing. Many here are asking for accountability. Every worker doing what they want does not look like accountability (to me.). Perhaps I am
misreading that part? Some of us, even after decades still scope out the exits in an unfamiliar fellowship space as the thought of potentially being trapped is anxiety producing. I don’t have the answer on what reasonable accountability looks like, but it seems a fair concern given what we definitively know now. Not also saying this in the spirit of a personal attack, but please consider the word choice of “amusing” is belittling to some of us who are not attacking but simply wanting a way to know, to measure that victims will be heard; not quoted scripture about being a gossip, not being discredited b/c they’re unreliable (especially when trying to cope with the trauma contributed to their “unreliability”) not told a certain person would never be preaching again only to find out otherwise. These are serious matters, they need serious consideration and a type of measurable progress if there’s to be a future to this fellowship. It is not amusing.
Thank you for your response. You are right that I got a bit upset and frustrated with the fact that every single thing will be criticized and contradicted even if the criticisms contradict themselves. But I also realize that all of those criticizing don’t agree with each other so it’s not necessarily as contradictory as it seems.
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There are a number of times that the hierarchy is attached in the series of comments in this post. And that we should have a spirit-led ministry. One quote was “ every worker indeed SHOULD be doing what they think is right. This would be exactly what a spirit led ministry would look like. A hierarchy appointed by man to organize is a foundational problem for starters.”
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To me this kind of thinking is quite dangerous. The ideal is a Spirit-led ministry. The reality is that it’s a bunch of humans seeking to stay in touch with the spirit, mixed with a few who have allowed their flesh to rule. A certain amount of hierarchy provides protection for those who are honestly seeking to be led by the spirit, and accountability for those who have allowed their flesh to take over.
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You can replace “amusing” with “upsetting but now I’m no longer shocked and surprised at things I read here”. For me it is just like when you realize that the one abusing you is not even trying to be reasonable in what they say and so you resign yourself to the emotional entrapment and try to find a way to endure. That is why I said it was triggering. It’s very personal, I admit – it’s my own personal experience. But now I know how to recognize it. Emotional abuse is very much tied to CSA and if we are not careful, we likewise become emotionally abusive as a result of our own bitterness and terrible pain.
So When reading some comments here I am wondering what happened to the initiative?
“Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers”
Is that what some of these comments are about, seriously? (At least a small few now have been sensible and fair and looking at this rationally.)
Yet there seems to me like there is a lot of ill will in a lot of these comments. I fully understand the anger, the present disappointment and loss of trust of friends and workers, and that is in some ways justifiable. But the spirit of some of these comments (who are likely not victims themselves) reminds me of the spirit displayed in the Judgement Hall when the lamb of God was being slandered, falsely accused, mocked, slapped, spit on and finally crucified. His reaction to those horrible men was nothing like the reactions we see here, his was the spirit of a lamb and that had far more power than the Sanhedrin or the Roman army. How can we claim to follow Jesus and have such a hateful spirit? Could it be this is some form of revenge because of a personal vendetta? Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Is it an effort to destroy the ministry as a
whole? Jesus said Matthew 28:20 (talking to the apostles) and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The sinful acts of a few bad workers that fell to their own sinful flesh (and the guilty should and will suffer the consequences) should not be justification for outright rejection of the example we have in Jesus, these thoughtless, heartless reactions are more like something inspired by the spirit of the evil one than that of God. There are a lot of us hurting who want this to be made right in a respectful godly way, and a lawful manner, with true judgment, not baseless accusations, but in the spirit of meekness (which is not weakness). I dont think most of us are like the ones that are posting comments of this nature (I myself
am a victim from years back and still have the pain and likely until death but I am not hateful; I was not raised in a professing home) This site is breeding hate speech from some. I am now finished with this website which at the conception was with the intent of genuine concern of helping victims like myself, helping them cope with their pain, not a venting place for those snarlingly opposed to the Lords way and his ministry; Gods way is a way of understanding and love, many here seem completely void of any mercy, thus manifesting an ‘abuse’ themselves by their caustic words and affecting those of us who have been abused sexually and emotionally, and wanting understanding to get on with a life following Jesus in the true way.
Where are the monitors and creators of this site? Have they become like politicians who put forth great promises only to turn their backs on their constituents? If you are the least bit honest every one of you should be ashamed, or at least clean up this site.
The sins of the spirit can be far worse than the sins of the flesh. What did Jesus say about Judas? It had been better if he were not born. That should be something to contemplate here. That is if we truly believe in the Creator & His Son and that He is truly the judge of all men, which is far above the laws of the land which are necessary and need to, and should be enforced.
With the attitude displayed here this site wont be around long at least not as a means of help to victims and those who want things right. One may as well go to twitter.
I believe this site has become a real disappointment to Gods true children who are trying to heal and get balm within their heart and spirit, as well as their soul with Gods help at the forefront
Anon. I agree to a point with what you are saying. I have gone to meetings all my life (I am over 60 and still do). If I allow myself to get caught up in the spirit of vengeance I can become the same way. And Satan will do everything he can to make me feel justified. But then like what happened this past weekend, we go to a simple fellowship meeting and feel the true spirit and love of other struggling sinners just like me and we get our vision cleared.
I feel so sorry for those who cannot see the forest for the trees and have an axe to grind. And I agree that that some are using this forum to further their own anti-worker agenda and the reality is this site is not pro-fellowship. But sadly the lack of open communication in so many areas has made this site a source of information to many of us who have been rocked by these revelations of abuse and how they have been handled. We learned a long time ago that anger is easy, but really is a cover for a much deeper emotion called fear! Fear that we have been deceived all our lives, fear that many more workers are evil, fear that things are falling apart etc. But then we go to a simple Sunday meeting and feel God’s love and pass the emblems and examine ourselves and leave feeling clean and refreshed. Faith removes fear.
People are hurting and I have never seen my wife so shook up by what she is finding out. But it has caused us to pray even more Earnestly for the workers who are true. So my suggestion is stay and keep the spirit of a forgiven sinner. By showing love in all things it will never go unnoticed.
This site is operated by professing people. While the policy is to be church-neutral, the changes that we see that are needed to keep children safe are highly pro-fellowship.
Anon, I really liked what you said about wanting to move on from the abuse you have experienced. Your experience can go a long way in helping others move on as well.
I have a question for you. We know a situation where a victim of CSA has turned completely on her parents. No contact and has become an very abusive towards them and they feel like she is blaming them. They knew nothing about her abuse until the perp. died. They knew him and trusted him and have been devastated by this. We feel so helpless in knowing what to say to them. We feel horrible for what happened to their daughter but we also feel that they should never have to become victims themselves. I understand that you do not know the full details but any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Joe, the parents need to start working with a professional trained to help with CSA. Part of the trauma a perpetrator inflicts is blame, survivor’s guilt, and distrust in addition to the CSA. Most families are not equipped to work through these situations without professional assistance. It is important to support all victims and to understand that healing is a process which is not measured with a predetermined period of time.
Astounded to anon You have great wisdom. But it is man’s wisdom. Your pain comes through. we are sorry for you. Never underestimate the power of the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6:11-:12 Your defense is the WHOLE armour of God: :13 that you may be able to stand. Against what?? 2 Cor.11:13-:15??!!
God’s wisdom is :17. Each word is important. Study and pray without ceasing.
1 Corinthians 2:9-:10 assures us the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the DEEP things of God. Read :7 and understand even the “hidden “wisdom” whichGod had ordained before the ‘world’ unto our glory: and :8 explains and is chilling to understand.
Yes, we too felt just like you. Our humbleness was our “sin” of self righteousness. This hit us like a Mac Truck. It scares us by how mislead we were. OUR first clue was Acts 2:42-46. The workers follow and minister exactly how the 12 apostles were sent.
Yes, we want things to be right but they MUST measure according to God’s WORD.
Anon and gone
A few workers !!!!! It’s early days and there is over 30 so far.
It is known that each offender has multiple victims, research says between 10 and 50. Then count all the family and friends who love and cherish the victim and feel like in some way they let them down.
I wonder how you would feel if it was your son, daughter or grandchild. You possibly being a superior saint could sit easily on the high ground and pontificate.
While the cry of the victims (which have been on going for years) are squashed and buried. As they go on living, feeling broken, haunted and destroyed. Struggling to survive day by day with the horror of what they endured. Finding no justice and seeing their Abuser continuing to live their life of hypocrisy and evil. Struggling in their spirituality, betrayed by the very ones that should bring comfort and love.
However, you can remain serenely on the high ground and leave it to God. Continuing to watch from the high ground as the Offender stalks and claims more innocents.
In your world God doesn’t expect us to stand up for righteousness and destroy the evil within.
Yes, there is some appalling comments and opinions. However there is more encouragement and healing going on. People have a right to feel betrayed and angry, they’re grieving.
Let’s just make it all nice and show no emotion.
It’s a great sermon – wrong climate.
Christ was an adult victim, these are Gods little children.
my reply was mistakenly posted below
I’m thankful that God is cleansing His Kingdom at both ends. Yes, He is purging the predators, but at the same time is driving out the tares and rebels who are defying the workers. The authority of the overseers is absolutely Biblical and submission is essential. Ananias and Sapphira ended up dead for their defiance and lies to the workers. Acts 5 says that “Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.” We need more of that fear, reverence, and thankfulness for Ray and the others that God has set in authority. We dare not rebel.
To rbjgv There are a thousand ways to comment on your post but I’ll just respond with this 😳
Fear, reverence and thankfulness go to God who are opening our eyes and allowing us to see that He didn’t set these workers in authority.
And Yes we do need to rebel , God definitely requires that we stand for righteousness against this horrifying corruption of both sexual abusers and those who have covered it.
Amen! Thank you for this godly counsel.
Well said Doreen!
I find this statement interesting because we’ve had a million different views on many extremes…
We certainly have no unity within the friends and workers on this (not helped by the fact workers won’t come together and provide a global statement – there isn’t a corner of the world that isn’t impacted by this).
We definitely don’t have unity amongst the exes – there is an opportunity here to focus on the issue at hand but it’s been hijacked by many other issues (which are relevant but not for this specific issue).
It really is a mess, and every time I read another story my heart breaks a little bit more.
You are advocating that Dean Bruer had authority that demanded obedience? I disagree.
Yes, if the overseer is a pedophile and says God wants him to have s*x with a 10-year-old, are people supposed to believe that is God’s will? Really?
I’m so sorry you can’t see. Who do you think covered up, moved workers , won’t be transparent about money? Ray is not God led, if he WAS , the Godly fruit would be apparent I’m not seeing any!! Ray has been in my home ate at our table. This visit was 8 years ago. I’ll never forget after he left, both of our professing sons looked at me and said he was the most arrogant person they ever met. We couldn’t defend Ray because my husband and I were speechless at how insulting and generally rude he was. So we saw first hand a narcissist not a Godly man!
I have met Ray at Conventions. He does have an air of superiority about him. You pick up a sense that he’s proud of the level he’s reached since his humble beginnings in our fellowship.
Your writing unfortunately betrays you. Your feelings aren’t facts (just because you think something doesn’t make it true). Your exaggerations also makes it less believable. Keep it real.
Had a similar experience with Ray Hoffman.
I had a 2-3 hour talk with him and x2 sister workers in my home on essential doctrine that the fellowship doesn’t follow.
He was hopping on my hair that was cut shoulder lenght, he said a women should never cut her hair, he humiliated me when I could not understand what he meant when he said it was a rhetorical question in the chapter were Paul deals with women’s hair.My native language is not English so I didn’t know what he meant by saying it is a rhetorical question.I told him that it doesn’t say in that chapter that a women should never cut her hair.I definitely did not find him to be a humble person.I told him the truth is not in him.
I apologize if you missed a well intentioned comment. It is just the way I feel in my heart. Perhaps you missed my comment of being abused myself both sexually and emotionally? I think I may understand the problem more than most here but I could be wrong, and you could be right. I am assuming you are a victim.
Likely whatever I (or others) would write in defense of how I feel about Gods Spirit would be misunderstood. I am not defending any wrongdoing whatsoever. Enough said.
Thats why I am leaving this site but felt it a courtesy to respond to you.
Anon and gone – thank you for all that you shared and wrote. The one thing that keeps some of us coming back here is that it’s the only place where we can find this kind of information – and yet I’m not sure that it is necessary, appropriate or helpful to have every town hall broadcasted to the world. The only help it is, in my book, is so that each area can learn from each other. I have learned, however, that I don’t need to know about all of the offenders around the world. I don’t even need to know when an overseer has been taken down, or any other worker. I think we have reached a saturation level for this kind of information. At this point I am trusting that there have been major changes and that people are way more educated than they were 6 months ago and vulnerable ones amongst us have been empowered to keep their eyes open, say “no” and speak up. We are a long ways from perfection of course, but there is no going back now. I already posted that I wouldn’t come back to this site because it was unhealthy and triggering for me, and here I did and commented already 4 times on this post (to the trolls). But I realize that most people here simply want to convince me that hate is the only right way. I too have wounds and scars. But they don’t scar my spirit. Nobody but God has the right to affect my spirit. For the natural body and brain, I believe in neuroplasticity. The thing that you think about – that thing will grow stronger. If you want to heal, think like the person that is already healed. We want to be like Jesus. I believe that seeking to live like he did and forgive like he did is going to make me more like him, and I am living for the day when he will wipe all tears from my eyes and there will be no more sorrow and no more pain. I believe this with all of my body soul and spirit. And I’ve found no other fellowship that helps me to grow in the things I believe.
I wish I had an answer but with all thats flying in this storm I would suggest prayer is best action at present. This problem on both sides is bigger than us but not to God.
I am not a professional so unfortunately have no advice on the mental struggle of the poor victem, sorry.
Thank you for your comment and really I feel for the young lady, as well as her parents.
I likely wont be posting here any more but wanted to answer yours.
God is love, and love is strong enough to cover all evils. Love will win in the end. I am going to be on the winning side. Jesus died so that we could be one like he and his father are one. Jesus has helped me through so many experiences. If he suffered for all of us, we can suffer for each other until we become the perfect bride, washed and cleansed from all wrinkles and spots. I will be at that wedding. He’s not my bridegroom – he’s the bridegroom of the church. And I will be in the midst of her rejoicing with all that have loved His appearing.
Just a hypothetical… convention owners make a list of which workers (most likely brothers who knowingly failed to report abuse and/or condoned CSA by their actions) are not welcome on their properties for conventions this year. Patterned behavior will continue as long as there are no consequences. Maybe by next year there will be positive changes.
Astounded, thank you for the concise outline. Ever since I was a teenager, I believed there was a flaw in our foundation; but I dare not question!
William Irvine founded our fellowship on a Jewish doctrine. When Jesus shed his blood, a new foundation was laid; a foundation of Love. Today we have a foundation built on a Jewish system and not on the Spirit of Love.
There is a big difference between, ‘before the blood’ and ‘after the blood’.
Our fellowship is clearly “before the blooders”!
Becky, well said! And it would be wonderful if the overseers would confess the flaw in our foundation; the root cause of so much pain and heartaches.
Wow Andy, very well said.