This feels like the right thing. Conventions should be cancelled. If the workers are not going to make another venue for the church to publicly address this issue, and make themselves accountable, then normal meetings need to be cancelled.
Absolutely no. Maybe for some of y’all but we’ve got workday coming up and things are smooth here. Our workers have talked to us, we had a listening tour that our workers held for us. Overall, our staff is doing quite well.
Here I Go, if you think things are going well, you are not talking to enough of the friends and workers. We cannot stick our heads in the sand and pretend like there is no problem. If we don’t address this now, I can see victims using a class action lawsuit against the overseers.
@LAS, I don’t have feelings about whether or not you believe me. I don’t know what you think, canceling all the conventions will do, but I’m super glad you are not my overseer. I’ve been to three conventions since all of this started. I have several more to go.
I talked to plenty of people at last week’s work day. We talk about it after meeting and even in meeting. We’ve got our workers on a listening tour. We talk about it with the workers at lunch and dinner. It’s weird & sad that in some areas things aren’t being fixed or discussed. I’ll be at 6 conventions this summer & fall. I’m grateful and happy. Our workers have made very public statements that there are some people who are not welcome to be there. Given everything, we are doing a lot better than many areas.
@curious I don’t really know. I’ve been going to quite a few conventions every year for the past 10 or so years. If they’re in driving distance, and the overseer says I can attend, I will go.
Sorry, but imagine group punishment like this. Sorry but doing this to many who will not have known anything is shameful.
I don’t agree with CSA or the coverup, but now the one thing I may have been needing is taken away.
Feels like weaponizing the convention grounds, which doesn’t sit well with me. Would be nice if there was more context so I didn’t jump to that conclusion.
Any convention attendee is a guest of the owner of the property. The owner can invite whom they wish – or not invite anyone. It’s a wonder any property owner is willing to subject themselves to the possible liability and wear and tear on their property that convention brings and especially in the current climate. No one has a “right” or entitlement to convention.
mferguson, you just don’t get it. There is no “weaponizing” of the convention grounds. This is about people not being, legally, to ignore the risks associated with having known child molesters or rapists on their property and the workers hiding information from the friends. These situations indicate that our workers, as a whole, cannot be relied on to do the right thing and make wise decisions. I wouldn’t host a convention now for $25 million without significant changes in policies and financial transparency from the workers.
mferguson, with all due respect; convention grounds is private property. Owners risk a whole lot having hundreds of people on their property. In the current atmosphere, very careful thought needs to be put into opening up your property. The “weaponizing” term is insulting and profoundly inappropriate.
Weaponizing definition (from m-w.com) 2. exploit for the purpose of attacking a person or group, or for spreading discord. I’m sorry if the term is insulting & profoundly inappropriate. Like I said before, I wish there was more context. If convention is just canceled because of fear of liability, then I would agree that it’s not weaponizing. If convention is cancelled as a tool to advocate for change, then it is weaponizing. And if the property owner thinks that cancelling the convention is necessary to gain awareness and effect change, then they certainly have that option. And it’s a very courageous option, I might add. Probably the workers will just do the Woodstock thing though & find a neutral site for convention, then the people don’t miss out, awareness is raised, change is effected, and we have a positive outcome for all. I feel better already, glad I just thought of the Woodstock mess.
It’s not group punishment to direct limited resources where they need to be. This is a decision that required a lot of integrity and courage. I will miss seeing everyone, but this is the right decision. The friends and workers need to make addressing CSA and SA the highest priority.
Shameful – as the property owners, people who own private property that is used for convention have a liability for illegal actions that happen on their property. I’m sure that’s part of what is behind this decision.
If there is anyone that does not know, they need to told. The elimination of CSA and SA is of the utmost importance! Hiding information about CSA and SA creates another generation of victims and enables perpetrators to continue to do terrible things.
Now that you know – use your voice to ask for change. We should not expect things to go on as usual until this evil is addressed
Maybe good workers still need to bend their heads around generational indoctrination and are not quite there yet in terms of changes but the rest of us ? we’ve been ready for a long time
This is not group punishment. It is a huge expression of love and care…and immense courage. If you “need” this opportunity to strengthen or stabilize your spiritual life, then it is a serious delusion already. If any one needs shaming it is you, but that’s probably not very useful either.
Astounded. Thank you Also concerned.
Shameful: imagine yourself being a victim of CSA.
NOW, your time spent at conv. would be 4 full days. That is amply time that you can spend Really Reading your Bible and save yourself from the abuse of not knowing the hope of your own salvation. Write down Matthew 15:21-:28, this is an account of the very reason Jesus was sent by His Father. Did you know that? IT IS your responsibility to know God’s WORD!
Now; you read :24 Jesus answered and said: I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE “”LOST SHEEP” OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. Yes, this is Jesus very words.
Jesus said again(what he said in Matthew 10:5-6) YOU need to read that in your own Bible. This is to His 12 chosen sent apostles
:5. Go NOT to into way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans ENTER ye NOT. Who are you? A Jew of the House of Israel?!
:6. But go rather to the LOST Sheep of the house of Israel This makes sense; all of the record shows those who believed did the Law of Moses. Matthew 5:, 6:, and 7: show in Israel’s promise of their perfect Kingdom of Heaven on earth they “will not only do the Law”; but will “do more” than the Law.
John 20:21 and Jesus sent the 12: as my Father hath sent me; so send I you.
Matthew writes of “Jesus as the King of the Jews” Math 2:
and ends with 27:11,:12.
Luke 24:52-53 shows us the 11apostles were Jews, doing Law of Moses as also does Acts 1:6 and Acts 3:1
Acts 2: again 12 apostles; :42-:46 all who believed DID WHAT? Followed Who?
Matthew 19:16 question- What must I “DO” that I may have eternal life?
Jesus answer; :17; :21 write this down! IS this what you do? WHY not?
Then Read Acts 1: Those 11 ask Jesus if that Kingdom that Jesus preached to them in Math.4:17 and :23 and Math. 19:28 wilt thou :6 “at this time” restore AGAIN the “”KINGDOM to Israel””?
This all answers the question: What is the Gospel Jesus preached and to whom did he preach? The 12 were sent to do the same. Remember John20:21?
Please read what God has left on record for your learning! Maybe you are not a victim of CSA; but you are a victim of a ministry that preaches a gospel which is the record of God trying to bring His Chosen Nation of Israel back to himself, so they could fulfill God’s very purpose as stated in Exodus 19:5 – :6.
Peter reminded those faithful Jews scattered from Jerusalem; who were being led away 2 Peter 3:1-3 by scoffers and :17 the error of the wicked::
THAT they were still 1 Peter 2:5 an holy “priesthood” -:9 ….a royal “priesthood” as Moses by God told that Nation in Exodus 19:5,6.
AND that God WILL fulfill his promises to Nation of Israel 2 Peter 3:9-:14, :13
WHAT is really interesting; is that Peter assures those believing Jews; God’s promises to them will happen:::
Peter explains: 2 Peter 3:15-16 that God has given WISDOM to Paul
:6 which is hard for Peter to understand BUT is the reason God is “long-suffering”
and also the reason 2 Peter 3:2 prophecy has not YET been fulfilled as promised.
YES, you have 4 days to read and study and learn exactly WHAT Peter found hard to understand. This wisdom the Lord gave to Paul is in Paul’s letters to the Romans through Philemon. When God blinded that Nation of Israel as in Romans 11:7; :9-:12, :25 (Acts 6 – 7:55 “Stephen saw Jesus standing”. Those of the very Government of Israel Knew prophecy that when God stands-up it will be in JUDGEMENT and they “stoned” Stephen anyway.) God Blinded that Nation and turned from them because of Matthew 12:31-:32.
God give you understanding and direction as you seek to know and understand WHAT God’s WORD really is written.
God promises you will be able to “stand against the wiles of the devil” if you put on ALL – the whole ARMOUR of God. Ephesians 6:11-:12 (How scary!) Ephesians 6:17 Take helmet of “salvation” and the sword of the Spirit—-
WHY? to stand! HOW? which is “THE WORD OF GOD”! Scary! – HUH?
No one can abuse your “Eternal Salvation” if you protect yourself.
May God bless you Ms. Widel – you stood up for what is right in God’s eye and will bring more light to these very bad CSA crimes and the years of coverup by the 2×2 leadership. You did the right thing.
Taking away a special time of fellowship from hundreds of people due to the actions (& inactions) of a few sure seems to fit the definition of group punishment to me. Please explain.
mferguson the owners of Woodstock convention grounds tried to articulated clear boundaries for their private property and the workers would not agree to the conditions. All property owners where conventions are hosted are privately owned and they are legally liable for what takes place on their property.
Which is wild cause the overseer of CO sent a letter out & made calls saying abusers and the accused and they maybe but probably not reformed were not welcome at Elizabeth convention.
My own convention is coming up soon and I am so glad that the workers & overseers in my area are really handling this very transparently and very firmly, with no room for cover ups or “sweeping things under the rug”.
I’m not sure trying to explain a very clear issue is going to help you…
There are unlimited ways YOU and hundreds of other people can make and participate in a special time of fellowship, throughout your day and everyday of your existence on this earth. If you depend on the “once a year” convention to keep you faithful, you are definitely feeding the wrong appetite and no wonder you are starving. This is not punishment because it’s not about you. It is a profoundly courageous attempt to protect and support the most vulnerable. And send a message to “leadership” that changes MUST be made with transparency. If you and others can’t stand the inconvenience of rearranging your life at your time and expense, please think of the ones who are really suffering. And it’s not you!
Mferguson, hopefully by now you have read the newest post on Wings and will have more understanding of why this is necessary and honourable. Only the owner could force the hand of the overseer in this instance. I applaud her courage, that in support of past victims and to try and prevent further abuses happening, she has said ‘enough’.
To quote a Leslie White victim’s statement
“I was around 22 years old and had been in the work for about 2 years and 3 months when I was raped by Leslie White at Elizabeth preps in Colorado in 2003.”
Bad things happen at convention too, even if you have no personal experience yourself. Please show a little compassion for the very difficult position Elizabeth Widel of Blackwater has found herself in as the owner of a Convention ground. Perhaps now would be the time to show your Christian spirit and, if you can’t be supportive, then be silent.
I merely asked for an explanation of why this isn’t group punishment (which you didn’t explain by the way). You essentially called me compassionless and non Christian spirited and then told me to be quiet if I didn’t support it. So glad we could have this respectful constructive open dialogue.
Mferguson it is not ‘group’ punishment because not all the group feel like it is punishment. Some of the group feel it is validation and support for the many victims. So if all if the ‘group’ are not in agreement then it can hardly be classified as ‘group punishment’.
Hope that explains it well enough?
And you didn’t actually show any hint of compassion for Elizabeth in either of your comments. But if you do have (unspoken) compassion for her then great, we’re on the same page.
I see she has now clarified that there will be no more conventions there while she is living on the property. And as the property owner that is her right. Regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Hi, mferguson. Do you feel like people who go to meeting (I do) *deserve* a place to go to meeting and/or convention? It seems like it would only be a punishment if something we have earned has been denied us but, in my humble opinion, we have earned nothing of the sort and the owners of the homes where we meet and the properties where we have convention have invited us there, and may continue to do so, or may not. Again, my opinion.
“She has now clarified that there will be no more conventions there while she is living on the property”. Thanks, this makes more sense. It also makes the punishment discussion moot.
Maybe if you and others like you would hold the few accountable then we could move forward. As long as the majority keep silent about the few and keep business as usual (while we allow the few to hold power with their actions/inactions) then every convention owner should say NO. These mild overtures of CSA acknowledgment are NOTHING. Let’s look at the CAUSE and treat it not just the symptoms.
(A few old corrupt men who are unaccountable, propping each other up and covering up their own and others sins). That is the cause. As long as they are in power neither we nor the conventions are safe (let’s take a look at their track record(s).
So far, in our area convention preps seem to be an excuse to not address the problems (too busy?). Then they will be off traveling to other countries/states/provinces for further conventions. Perhaps there is hope it has all been forgotten by mid-September when they return to their respective fields? September will be 6months since most people heard about Dean (in fact our area only verbally told ppl about 4wks ago😳)
What does it take to remove a few ppl who answer to no one? If the general church population keep ignoring the criminality among us then perhaps it will only the long arm of the law.
Such a wonderful decision to honor the hundreds of victims, and a show of support to correct the continuing errors of the past since the cult’s existence. Only after all perps are cast out can all the other issues be addressed for resolution. This was tremendous strength shown, real commitment to force straightening out the emerging hidden filthy history that is just now beginning to be exposed. Total respect for her conviction of the heart!
Amen, Donn! Unless our efforts are purposely stymied by the “powerful” overseers, we need to start addressing the root-cause and making real changes. This culture (and yes; we are a cult) perpetuates CSA/SA and has to be destroyed. A new foundation needs to be built. (And Ray & Barry should no longer be the chief cornerstone.)
I am very thankful for Ms/Mrs Widel taking a stand for what she believes is right. And I do agree with her stand.
Unfortunately, nothing will change. The overseers egos will not magically disappear. They will simply shake the piggy bank and find a new convention grounds.
The reality is, as of today there’s 30 comments here. Half by the same commenters and the same amount of “anons or keyboard warriors. And that’s fine too. I respect the privacy of victims/survivors need for privacy.
But let’s be real!!! The rest here who post Anon are more fearful of the workers or the fellowship than you are of God. Basically there’s less named people here posting than a single Wednesday Bible study. Ain’t no change a coming with a upset bible study group.
Skip, I really admire those of you who are able and willing to post with (presumably) your own names. Thank you for speaking openly and recognizably.
Please remember, though, that this website isn’t visible just to workers and those in our fellowship – it’s visible to anyone with an internet connection. Some of us may have roles in our work places / professions or the wider community that would be affected by our names being publicly associated with sensitive discussions like the ones here. There is just too much room for misinterpretation and misunderstanding. So if we post at all, we post anonymously.
I greatly appreciate WINGS providing this forum so that we can stay aware of developments on this important and painful topic. At least some of us who are anonymous here are following up with discussions and actions in our local areas, but without posting publicly about it. I think the CCF forum, for example, which isn’t publicly accessible, is one where more of our friends and workers use their real names.
Workers think they live in some kind of protective bubble beyond the reach of law enforcement. Do you think that just because they’ve had discussion groups and written “apologies” that they aren’t on anyone’s radar screen?
Folks, we have known pedophiles and rapists in our rank and file and in our ministry and so far those responsible for covering up for them are still in charge of the ministry. And here we are expecting to have our conventions like normal, with a whole lot of the people with children unaware of the rottenness at the top and the perverts in their midst. You think law enforcement isn’t watching?
Google the FLDS group. Sexual abuse at the top. Their kids were rounded up and spent months in foster care until it could all get sorted out. In today’s anti-Christian climate, we would be fools to think something like this couldn’t happen to us.
This convention property owner is absolutely spot on for saying no more. As the property owner, she is responsible for what goes on there and who is doing it.
No doubt the top brass are trying to find a way to force her to sell out to a loyal supporter. I hope she stands her ground and keeps it.
I love your comment and agree! We “left” to keep our kids safe. We want no part of it when the govt comes in and make no mistake, they will. Also, the arrogance and love of money and power at the top will not change on it’s own. They will try to say all the right words while doing nothing.
Not one conv should be taking place this year. Each owner is responsible for what goes on on their property. There is NO WAY I would take that risk. If the govt swoops in during a conv time, those owners will wish they had canceled! During covid, the workers said we could be thankful without taking the bread and wine but no one is willing to forgo conv for a year?! Priorities I guess?!
Anonymous, you are correct. I suspect that one property owner of convention grounds cancelled conventions at their property permanently, and one of the reasons may be that they didn’t want law enforcement dealing with this on their property. May also have been concerned about liability issues.
I have concerns for the people who arent attending convention this year. If it is a safety issue for children I don’t see anymore fear at convention than a trip to Wallmart or other public event. I do have one suggestion that would be helpful. Have a single non gender bathroom where a parent can inspect for safety and then remain close by for safety. Also if it could be handicap accessible that would accommodate couples that need to assist their spouse.
I feel that not attending just gives the devil more chance to work. Also the workers are going to add to their “list” of reasons for excommunication. I plan to go and try the Spirit. I also feel we need to face the “bullies” let them know we aren’t backing down. I know, everyone one this site is doing that. I can’t believe so many workers have “gone down the same rabbit hole”. I have never experienced anything like so many others but I have been aware of it for many years and the way it was handled. Many years ago Garrett Hughes said the closer the end the harder the devil will work on the foundation of this way which is the sent ministery and the meeting in the home. We are witnessing that today I believe. I never dreamed I would see it and how devastating it was going to be.
Sorry I am confused around the excommunication ‘list’. Are members of the church in USA excommunicated for missing meetings, missions and conventions, or challenging the workers/overseers thinking, and other inconsequential things like that? In the 25+/- years of our current overseer, I am only aware of one excommunication here in NZ and that was due to CSA.
Curious, your post is very interesting. I hope others will chime in also. In the US and Canada, we have elevated the ministry high onto a pedestal, feeding our own pride in the process. In so doing, we have created a rod for our own back. We have created an environment where the ministry has been given the power to abuse us and our children. I don’t want to overstate this, but we are way off track at this time. The good news is, I don’t think the next generation is going to put up with this.
WINGS for Truth 
Thank you brave soul. All conventions should have been cancelled this year, until this cancer is taken seriously, and removed.
I don’t think the convention is cancelled. I seems like someone has cancelled plans to attend. Hopefully that will be clarified.
It’s her property.
Oh…..good. I heartily approve. I couldn’t figure that out by following the link.
This feels like the right thing. Conventions should be cancelled. If the workers are not going to make another venue for the church to publicly address this issue, and make themselves accountable, then normal meetings need to be cancelled.
Absolutely no. Maybe for some of y’all but we’ve got workday coming up and things are smooth here. Our workers have talked to us, we had a listening tour that our workers held for us. Overall, our staff is doing quite well.
Here I Go, if you think things are going well, you are not talking to enough of the friends and workers. We cannot stick our heads in the sand and pretend like there is no problem. If we don’t address this now, I can see victims using a class action lawsuit against the overseers.
I don’t believe you. Either you are ignorant or part of the problem. This is a crisis not business as usual, cancel all conventions.
@LAS, I don’t have feelings about whether or not you believe me. I don’t know what you think, canceling all the conventions will do, but I’m super glad you are not my overseer. I’ve been to three conventions since all of this started. I have several more to go.
I talked to plenty of people at last week’s work day. We talk about it after meeting and even in meeting. We’ve got our workers on a listening tour. We talk about it with the workers at lunch and dinner. It’s weird & sad that in some areas things aren’t being fixed or discussed. I’ll be at 6 conventions this summer & fall. I’m grateful and happy. Our workers have made very public statements that there are some people who are not welcome to be there. Given everything, we are doing a lot better than many areas.
Goodness me ‘Here I Go’ , SIX conventions!! Is that normal in USA?
@curious I don’t really know. I’ve been going to quite a few conventions every year for the past 10 or so years. If they’re in driving distance, and the overseer says I can attend, I will go.
Sorry, but imagine group punishment like this. Sorry but doing this to many who will not have known anything is shameful.
I don’t agree with CSA or the coverup, but now the one thing I may have been needing is taken away.
Feels like weaponizing the convention grounds, which doesn’t sit well with me. Would be nice if there was more context so I didn’t jump to that conclusion.
Any convention attendee is a guest of the owner of the property. The owner can invite whom they wish – or not invite anyone. It’s a wonder any property owner is willing to subject themselves to the possible liability and wear and tear on their property that convention brings and especially in the current climate. No one has a “right” or entitlement to convention.
mferguson, you just don’t get it. There is no “weaponizing” of the convention grounds. This is about people not being, legally, to ignore the risks associated with having known child molesters or rapists on their property and the workers hiding information from the friends. These situations indicate that our workers, as a whole, cannot be relied on to do the right thing and make wise decisions. I wouldn’t host a convention now for $25 million without significant changes in policies and financial transparency from the workers.
mferguson, with all due respect; convention grounds is private property. Owners risk a whole lot having hundreds of people on their property. In the current atmosphere, very careful thought needs to be put into opening up your property. The “weaponizing” term is insulting and profoundly inappropriate.
Weaponizing definition (from m-w.com) 2. exploit for the purpose of attacking a person or group, or for spreading discord. I’m sorry if the term is insulting & profoundly inappropriate. Like I said before, I wish there was more context. If convention is just canceled because of fear of liability, then I would agree that it’s not weaponizing. If convention is cancelled as a tool to advocate for change, then it is weaponizing. And if the property owner thinks that cancelling the convention is necessary to gain awareness and effect change, then they certainly have that option. And it’s a very courageous option, I might add. Probably the workers will just do the Woodstock thing though & find a neutral site for convention, then the people don’t miss out, awareness is raised, change is effected, and we have a positive outcome for all. I feel better already, glad I just thought of the Woodstock mess.
It’s not group punishment to direct limited resources where they need to be. This is a decision that required a lot of integrity and courage. I will miss seeing everyone, but this is the right decision. The friends and workers need to make addressing CSA and SA the highest priority.
Shameful – as the property owners, people who own private property that is used for convention have a liability for illegal actions that happen on their property. I’m sure that’s part of what is behind this decision.
If there is anyone that does not know, they need to told. The elimination of CSA and SA is of the utmost importance! Hiding information about CSA and SA creates another generation of victims and enables perpetrators to continue to do terrible things.
Now that you know – use your voice to ask for change. We should not expect things to go on as usual until this evil is addressed
Maybe good workers still need to bend their heads around generational indoctrination and are not quite there yet in terms of changes but the rest of us ? we’ve been ready for a long time
This is not group punishment. It is a huge expression of love and care…and immense courage. If you “need” this opportunity to strengthen or stabilize your spiritual life, then it is a serious delusion already. If any one needs shaming it is you, but that’s probably not very useful either.
Astounded. Thank you Also concerned.
Shameful: imagine yourself being a victim of CSA.
NOW, your time spent at conv. would be 4 full days. That is amply time that you can spend Really Reading your Bible and save yourself from the abuse of not knowing the hope of your own salvation. Write down Matthew 15:21-:28, this is an account of the very reason Jesus was sent by His Father. Did you know that? IT IS your responsibility to know God’s WORD!
Now; you read :24 Jesus answered and said: I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE “”LOST SHEEP” OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. Yes, this is Jesus very words.
Jesus said again(what he said in Matthew 10:5-6) YOU need to read that in your own Bible. This is to His 12 chosen sent apostles
:5. Go NOT to into way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans ENTER ye NOT. Who are you? A Jew of the House of Israel?!
:6. But go rather to the LOST Sheep of the house of Israel This makes sense; all of the record shows those who believed did the Law of Moses. Matthew 5:, 6:, and 7: show in Israel’s promise of their perfect Kingdom of Heaven on earth they “will not only do the Law”; but will “do more” than the Law.
John 20:21 and Jesus sent the 12: as my Father hath sent me; so send I you.
Matthew writes of “Jesus as the King of the Jews” Math 2:
and ends with 27:11,:12.
Luke 24:52-53 shows us the 11apostles were Jews, doing Law of Moses as also does Acts 1:6 and Acts 3:1
Acts 2: again 12 apostles; :42-:46 all who believed DID WHAT? Followed Who?
Matthew 19:16 question- What must I “DO” that I may have eternal life?
Jesus answer; :17; :21 write this down! IS this what you do? WHY not?
Then Read Acts 1: Those 11 ask Jesus if that Kingdom that Jesus preached to them in Math.4:17 and :23 and Math. 19:28 wilt thou :6 “at this time” restore AGAIN the “”KINGDOM to Israel””?
This all answers the question: What is the Gospel Jesus preached and to whom did he preach? The 12 were sent to do the same. Remember John20:21?
Please read what God has left on record for your learning! Maybe you are not a victim of CSA; but you are a victim of a ministry that preaches a gospel which is the record of God trying to bring His Chosen Nation of Israel back to himself, so they could fulfill God’s very purpose as stated in Exodus 19:5 – :6.
Peter reminded those faithful Jews scattered from Jerusalem; who were being led away 2 Peter 3:1-3 by scoffers and :17 the error of the wicked::
THAT they were still 1 Peter 2:5 an holy “priesthood” -:9 ….a royal “priesthood” as Moses by God told that Nation in Exodus 19:5,6.
AND that God WILL fulfill his promises to Nation of Israel 2 Peter 3:9-:14, :13
WHAT is really interesting; is that Peter assures those believing Jews; God’s promises to them will happen:::
Peter explains: 2 Peter 3:15-16 that God has given WISDOM to Paul
:6 which is hard for Peter to understand BUT is the reason God is “long-suffering”
and also the reason 2 Peter 3:2 prophecy has not YET been fulfilled as promised.
YES, you have 4 days to read and study and learn exactly WHAT Peter found hard to understand. This wisdom the Lord gave to Paul is in Paul’s letters to the Romans through Philemon. When God blinded that Nation of Israel as in Romans 11:7; :9-:12, :25 (Acts 6 – 7:55 “Stephen saw Jesus standing”. Those of the very Government of Israel Knew prophecy that when God stands-up it will be in JUDGEMENT and they “stoned” Stephen anyway.) God Blinded that Nation and turned from them because of Matthew 12:31-:32.
God give you understanding and direction as you seek to know and understand WHAT God’s WORD really is written.
God promises you will be able to “stand against the wiles of the devil” if you put on ALL – the whole ARMOUR of God. Ephesians 6:11-:12 (How scary!) Ephesians 6:17 Take helmet of “salvation” and the sword of the Spirit—-
WHY? to stand! HOW? which is “THE WORD OF GOD”! Scary! – HUH?
No one can abuse your “Eternal Salvation” if you protect yourself.
May God bless you Ms. Widel – you stood up for what is right in God’s eye and will bring more light to these very bad CSA crimes and the years of coverup by the 2×2 leadership. You did the right thing.
Taking away a special time of fellowship from hundreds of people due to the actions (& inactions) of a few sure seems to fit the definition of group punishment to me. Please explain.
mferguson the owners of Woodstock convention grounds tried to articulated clear boundaries for their private property and the workers would not agree to the conditions. All property owners where conventions are hosted are privately owned and they are legally liable for what takes place on their property.
Which is wild cause the overseer of CO sent a letter out & made calls saying abusers and the accused and they maybe but probably not reformed were not welcome at Elizabeth convention.
My own convention is coming up soon and I am so glad that the workers & overseers in my area are really handling this very transparently and very firmly, with no room for cover ups or “sweeping things under the rug”.
I’m not sure trying to explain a very clear issue is going to help you…
There are unlimited ways YOU and hundreds of other people can make and participate in a special time of fellowship, throughout your day and everyday of your existence on this earth. If you depend on the “once a year” convention to keep you faithful, you are definitely feeding the wrong appetite and no wonder you are starving. This is not punishment because it’s not about you. It is a profoundly courageous attempt to protect and support the most vulnerable. And send a message to “leadership” that changes MUST be made with transparency. If you and others can’t stand the inconvenience of rearranging your life at your time and expense, please think of the ones who are really suffering. And it’s not you!
Amen
Mferguson, hopefully by now you have read the newest post on Wings and will have more understanding of why this is necessary and honourable. Only the owner could force the hand of the overseer in this instance. I applaud her courage, that in support of past victims and to try and prevent further abuses happening, she has said ‘enough’.
To quote a Leslie White victim’s statement
“I was around 22 years old and had been in the work for about 2 years and 3 months when I was raped by Leslie White at Elizabeth preps in Colorado in 2003.”
Bad things happen at convention too, even if you have no personal experience yourself. Please show a little compassion for the very difficult position Elizabeth Widel of Blackwater has found herself in as the owner of a Convention ground. Perhaps now would be the time to show your Christian spirit and, if you can’t be supportive, then be silent.
I merely asked for an explanation of why this isn’t group punishment (which you didn’t explain by the way). You essentially called me compassionless and non Christian spirited and then told me to be quiet if I didn’t support it. So glad we could have this respectful constructive open dialogue.
Mferguson it is not ‘group’ punishment because not all the group feel like it is punishment. Some of the group feel it is validation and support for the many victims. So if all if the ‘group’ are not in agreement then it can hardly be classified as ‘group punishment’.
Hope that explains it well enough?
And you didn’t actually show any hint of compassion for Elizabeth in either of your comments. But if you do have (unspoken) compassion for her then great, we’re on the same page.
I see she has now clarified that there will be no more conventions there while she is living on the property. And as the property owner that is her right. Regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Hi, mferguson. Do you feel like people who go to meeting (I do) *deserve* a place to go to meeting and/or convention? It seems like it would only be a punishment if something we have earned has been denied us but, in my humble opinion, we have earned nothing of the sort and the owners of the homes where we meet and the properties where we have convention have invited us there, and may continue to do so, or may not. Again, my opinion.
“She has now clarified that there will be no more conventions there while she is living on the property”. Thanks, this makes more sense. It also makes the punishment discussion moot.
Maybe if you and others like you would hold the few accountable then we could move forward. As long as the majority keep silent about the few and keep business as usual (while we allow the few to hold power with their actions/inactions) then every convention owner should say NO. These mild overtures of CSA acknowledgment are NOTHING. Let’s look at the CAUSE and treat it not just the symptoms.
(A few old corrupt men who are unaccountable, propping each other up and covering up their own and others sins). That is the cause. As long as they are in power neither we nor the conventions are safe (let’s take a look at their track record(s).
So far, in our area convention preps seem to be an excuse to not address the problems (too busy?). Then they will be off traveling to other countries/states/provinces for further conventions. Perhaps there is hope it has all been forgotten by mid-September when they return to their respective fields? September will be 6months since most people heard about Dean (in fact our area only verbally told ppl about 4wks ago😳)
What does it take to remove a few ppl who answer to no one? If the general church population keep ignoring the criminality among us then perhaps it will only the long arm of the law.
Such a wonderful decision to honor the hundreds of victims, and a show of support to correct the continuing errors of the past since the cult’s existence. Only after all perps are cast out can all the other issues be addressed for resolution. This was tremendous strength shown, real commitment to force straightening out the emerging hidden filthy history that is just now beginning to be exposed. Total respect for her conviction of the heart!
Amen, Donn! Unless our efforts are purposely stymied by the “powerful” overseers, we need to start addressing the root-cause and making real changes. This culture (and yes; we are a cult) perpetuates CSA/SA and has to be destroyed. A new foundation needs to be built. (And Ray & Barry should no longer be the chief cornerstone.)
I am very thankful for Ms/Mrs Widel taking a stand for what she believes is right. And I do agree with her stand.
Unfortunately, nothing will change. The overseers egos will not magically disappear. They will simply shake the piggy bank and find a new convention grounds.
The reality is, as of today there’s 30 comments here. Half by the same commenters and the same amount of “anons or keyboard warriors. And that’s fine too. I respect the privacy of victims/survivors need for privacy.
But let’s be real!!! The rest here who post Anon are more fearful of the workers or the fellowship than you are of God. Basically there’s less named people here posting than a single Wednesday Bible study. Ain’t no change a coming with a upset bible study group.
Skip, I really admire those of you who are able and willing to post with (presumably) your own names. Thank you for speaking openly and recognizably.
Please remember, though, that this website isn’t visible just to workers and those in our fellowship – it’s visible to anyone with an internet connection. Some of us may have roles in our work places / professions or the wider community that would be affected by our names being publicly associated with sensitive discussions like the ones here. There is just too much room for misinterpretation and misunderstanding. So if we post at all, we post anonymously.
I greatly appreciate WINGS providing this forum so that we can stay aware of developments on this important and painful topic. At least some of us who are anonymous here are following up with discussions and actions in our local areas, but without posting publicly about it. I think the CCF forum, for example, which isn’t publicly accessible, is one where more of our friends and workers use their real names.
Observer, thank you for bringing to my attention another point of view. You make a valid point. I appreciate it.
Workers think they live in some kind of protective bubble beyond the reach of law enforcement. Do you think that just because they’ve had discussion groups and written “apologies” that they aren’t on anyone’s radar screen?
Folks, we have known pedophiles and rapists in our rank and file and in our ministry and so far those responsible for covering up for them are still in charge of the ministry. And here we are expecting to have our conventions like normal, with a whole lot of the people with children unaware of the rottenness at the top and the perverts in their midst. You think law enforcement isn’t watching?
Google the FLDS group. Sexual abuse at the top. Their kids were rounded up and spent months in foster care until it could all get sorted out. In today’s anti-Christian climate, we would be fools to think something like this couldn’t happen to us.
This convention property owner is absolutely spot on for saying no more. As the property owner, she is responsible for what goes on there and who is doing it.
No doubt the top brass are trying to find a way to force her to sell out to a loyal supporter. I hope she stands her ground and keeps it.
I love your comment and agree! We “left” to keep our kids safe. We want no part of it when the govt comes in and make no mistake, they will. Also, the arrogance and love of money and power at the top will not change on it’s own. They will try to say all the right words while doing nothing.
Not one conv should be taking place this year. Each owner is responsible for what goes on on their property. There is NO WAY I would take that risk. If the govt swoops in during a conv time, those owners will wish they had canceled! During covid, the workers said we could be thankful without taking the bread and wine but no one is willing to forgo conv for a year?! Priorities I guess?!
Anonymous, you are correct. I suspect that one property owner of convention grounds cancelled conventions at their property permanently, and one of the reasons may be that they didn’t want law enforcement dealing with this on their property. May also have been concerned about liability issues.
I have concerns for the people who arent attending convention this year. If it is a safety issue for children I don’t see anymore fear at convention than a trip to Wallmart or other public event. I do have one suggestion that would be helpful. Have a single non gender bathroom where a parent can inspect for safety and then remain close by for safety. Also if it could be handicap accessible that would accommodate couples that need to assist their spouse.
Pj, I am genuinely interested in what your concerns are around the people not attending convention this year?
I feel that not attending just gives the devil more chance to work. Also the workers are going to add to their “list” of reasons for excommunication. I plan to go and try the Spirit. I also feel we need to face the “bullies” let them know we aren’t backing down. I know, everyone one this site is doing that. I can’t believe so many workers have “gone down the same rabbit hole”. I have never experienced anything like so many others but I have been aware of it for many years and the way it was handled. Many years ago Garrett Hughes said the closer the end the harder the devil will work on the foundation of this way which is the sent ministery and the meeting in the home. We are witnessing that today I believe. I never dreamed I would see it and how devastating it was going to be.
Sorry I am confused around the excommunication ‘list’. Are members of the church in USA excommunicated for missing meetings, missions and conventions, or challenging the workers/overseers thinking, and other inconsequential things like that? In the 25+/- years of our current overseer, I am only aware of one excommunication here in NZ and that was due to CSA.
Challenging the workers on anything
Curious, your post is very interesting. I hope others will chime in also. In the US and Canada, we have elevated the ministry high onto a pedestal, feeding our own pride in the process. In so doing, we have created a rod for our own back. We have created an environment where the ministry has been given the power to abuse us and our children. I don’t want to overstate this, but we are way off track at this time. The good news is, I don’t think the next generation is going to put up with this.