We are in the midst of very trying times. Some suffer in silence and others have shown tremendous courage in speaking up. Most of us feel helpless when we see and hear about head workers, workers, elders and friends continuing to cover up abuse.
The basis of many of the crimes and cover-ups can be attributed to the power imbalance of overseers. This power has been unlimited and without oversight and has resulted in rules that are not based on Jesus’s teachings. The tradition of having a certain acceptable outward appearance has been a way to control people and it needs to stop.
Jesus dressed like a typical person of his day. We know this because there are several instances documented where he “disappeared into the crowd”.
There are those amongst us who have felt the need to take a stand to show support for victims. Going forward, you will see support in the form of wearing non-traditional attire, such as women wearing pants and less focus on conforming to an outward standard. This will be at conventions and other gatherings. Abuse and ease of access is an unfortunate result of making women and girls wear skirts. Thus, it seems there is more of an urgency to allow people to choose their clothing as appropriate. We are not doing this to rebel against God, as garments and adornments are not a sin or a criminal act. We want to give a clear message that we no longer tolerate the embedded culture in the Ministry of bullying, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, misconduct and cover-up of such.
There are many man-made rules and traditions that have been elevated to doctrine and confused with righteousness. We love the fellowship and appreciate everyone who is trying to be honest and transparent during this time of turmoil. We do not want to cause offence in any way, but we take this stand to ensure that things are put right, so that fellowship can be preserved. This nonconformance to the outward standard is not a rebellion against God or our faith, but is a show of loving support for those of you – women, men and children who have suffered and are suffering. We support you.
All are welcome to join in and show support in your area as you feel comfortable. We are a family, and we are very thankful for the support and love we receive from each other.
The future of this fellowship will include all people of every race and culture freely wearing clothing, make-up or jewellery and hairstyles they are comfortable with. We must not return to a time of manipulative and controlling rules that focus on outward compliance. This only encourages predators of all kinds to enforce these rules with their abuses.
We wish to turn our focus to Jesus’ teachings and our service to God, not man.
Your brothers and sisters in Christ.
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This is so far removed from the issue that this site is set up for. The victims must feel belittled reading this. I know I do as a victim of a groper. Shame.
Recognizing that the key attribute of CSA offenses is power imbalance is essential to resolving it in the fellowship. Please give it more careful consideration.
Whether I wear jeans to the grocery store and my shoulder length hair down or up has no bearing on how I feel about being groped as a child by a worker. I came to this site hoping it would be a catalyst for real change concerning csa/sa in the fellowship. I agree there are other issues but feel addressing them on this platform belittles my experience and those of others.
wvpeaches. It is the same issue. It’s really not about pants, it is about someone having undue power over others. Once you get conditioned to someone being able to tell you how to do your hair or what clothes you wear, you are vulnerable for abuses. Children are even more vulnerable in such an environment.
Connect the dots. Get rid of the power imbalance and CSA will decline precipitously. It is not the only solution, but a major solution.
I personally know many victims that agree with this sentiment, and actually find hope in it.
wvpeachs, We are all victims! CSA is the main point of this site but I am thankful for the many other areas of concern that also have come to be spoken of at last. We have been given so many man-made ‘laws’ that we have allowed to be made our doctrine, that have nothing to do with our service to our Father and our Redeemer or our salvation. There is such freedom in letting the Spirit be our Guide and not, subconsciously, making choices that enable us to ‘fit in’ with unbiblical laws made by mere humans. It is a heavy weight lifted that we didn’t even realize we were carrying until is is lifted! When we can finally let go of that mode of thinking, which is hard because of a lifetime of man’s indoctination, there is such freedom and joy in the Holy Spirit!
wvpeaches, I was also groped by a MN worker, visiting on special mtg rounds, but I was 36. Wish I would have slapped his face but I was so shocked. He was a worker, a man of God! And I just stood there…
THIS!
Dear writer, I would like to know how is this decision going to be given to know to everyone around the world, specially the non english speaker countries, where this thing of not wearing trousers is still a condition in many places to be able to take part in the meetings… I really would love this to work, being a woman, and having children that are all girls, teen, preteen an little… I would make an enormous difference to a lot, but real lots people, young and little… I have dream of the day that this come to happen, and I have waited for it with as much patience as I can get… when I was young it was an enormous trouble for me to go to school, and not to be able to leave my house and go to sport activities or others wearing simple tracksuits, because it was consider a sin, still is for many in latin american countries….
Hi South America. Many professing women in North America and Australia/NZ have been wearing pants (except at meeting) for at least 20-30 years. For some women, the only time during a typical week that they would wear a dress or skirt would be in the meeting. I think the workers who labour in South America probably brought in the rules as they were at the time when they left their home countries (perhaps the 1970s for some?). However, their home countries have continued to evolve. The workers often find it confronting when they return for their home visits and they see how much things have changed!
Let me suggest a good church down the road….you can do anything you want there. Rebelling against the teachings of Christ is not the help we need. This is not about CSA, what you are doing is rebelling. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
It is people who love power imbalance who are at the root of the CSA problems among the Friends and Workers.
You are right on! Power and control. Abuse of power. The roots that encourage child sexual abuse need to be exposed and uprooted.
If you truly believe that something like wearing pants and other minute markers of outward appearance are all that separate us from a ‘church down the road’, I think you may need to consider where your priorities lie. I also missed the part where this post suggested that we all just do ‘anything we want’. And I am genuinely curious – what teachings of Christ is this post rebelling against??
Tragically ironic that the one thing that does NOT separate us from other churches is exactly this; CSA.
Dear Beholder
I believe your comments are very transparent that your opinion is serving the Lord is done without LOVE.
It is very easy to say as for my house…. But if Love for others is left out of that house what do you actually have? Love is patient and kind.
Beholder, by the time this church adjusts for safety, implementing sound doctrine from theology experts, and fair and transparent finances it will look exactly like a “good church down the road.” Most of those folks rooted our current problems out centuries ago. Your sarcasm is actually quite good advice.
If a woman wearing pants is “rebellion” then it is rebellion against a false doctrine, not against God. The Pharisees accused Jesus repeatedly of “rebellion” for his words and actions regarding the sabbath, racism, inclusivity, mercy/sacrifice, etc. If taking a stand against things esteemed wrongly as “righteousness”, then yep, it might take a little rebellion to wake people up. Take a close look at Jesus’s choices and words, in upholding God’s will, yes he was a rebellion against “religion”.
Beholder. One needs to know the teachings of Christ and to whom those teachings are given and the difference of the teachings from Jesus in his flesh.
There is no rebellion if one does not know God’s word as written. And when one asks questions about exact God’s word for our understanding; we are label trouble makers and told we must ‘Do what the workers say’. This is the exact power structure that destroyed many who confronted abuse of their selves or their children. As a result not only was the victim destroyed but the protector also, while the predator slipped into another area of homes and families. How does one serve the Lord when the ministry does not know God’s word.
Beholder – please clarify which teachings of Jesus are being rebelled against when wearing pants?
Quote from letter: “Most of us feel helpless when we see and hear about head workers, workers, elders and friends continuing to cover up abuse.” If the covering up is “continuing”, wouldn’t it be well documented on this website? I see only one post directly supporting this, which hardly justifies the breadth of your brush. If you are witnessing “continuing” coverup, please give us details and facts.
If you want more info on cover ups, look for Advocates For The Truth on FB & join. It’s all there.
I would suspect it’s a lengthy list if we all contribute from around the world.
Merlin Affleck – asking for “discretion” in sharing information. He does not tell people that someone in their mtg is a pedophile and therefore to not bring any children to the mtg. He also wants workers to be careful – moving families to a new mtg in their area but not explaining why. These families may be friends with the pedophile and not know the allegations. Allowing Walter Berkinshaw (former head worker) who had allegations against him, to attend a convention.
Mike Hassett – not openly sharing information to protect children and women. Rape happening in his province, what is being done?
Jim Atcheson – seen in a gay bar. Workers were told and then contacted him to let him know he would be questioned. He had time to create an alibi.
All cover ups.
Jim seen in a gay bar – this sounds like a nice gossip rumour. Are all rumors to be investigated? If he was looking for discreet gay relationships there are plenty of options instead of a gay bar…
fact: in louisiana, new orleans field, a woman asked if there were any perpetrators in her field. overseer told her no, when that is completely untrue as there is a court case happening next month about CSA. The alleged perpetrator still goes to meeting, just not any meetings with the woman who asked, but they are in the same field. It’s naive to think the habits of decades are magically gone. There are also instances where it may not be a coverup, but the workers can’t share because it’s not legally advisable for them to share.
How about ethically advisable. How about answering honestly , “ there is a court case presently “ we will keep you posted.
I am a woman. I started attending “meeting” about two years ago. I didn’t know the “rules”, I was seeking fellowship, and I landed at meeting.
I’m a middle aged gal who simply started reading her Bible, praying and asking God to help me in seeking others who wanted to follow Jesus. It was truly that simple.
I wear make up, necklaces, bright nail polish, etc. I’m also a Latina, who comes with cultural differences as I am primarily in a very white community.
There were several eye opening issues that I was shocked by – one being the “looks” and the disapproval but yet with unspoken words. It made me cry actually – I thought I had done something wrong to the folks who attended, but I couldn’t put my mind around it. It was just a “feeling” of disapproval at that time.
I also noticed and asked about if communion was open or closed – so I would be respectful when in someone’s home – no one could answer that question. One person did say “it’s lead by the Holy Spirit”.
Another question I had was about the missionaries (workers), I was simply curious about all the aspects of their life, where they lived, how did they provided for themselves, and where did they live as I was simply trying to understand who I was talking to.
All of my questions were simply out of wanting to know who I was involved with. I am also a naturally curious and wanted to learn more about God.
As you can image I was met with “there are no rules”. I said okay, and went on.
I started attend meeting more regularly.
I found out that there ARE a LOT of rules, but how was I to know if know one told me?
I was a woman who was desperately seeking Gods ppl – it was that simple. I felt with some a real beauty , a real deep “spirit”, a connection.. I loved it, I loved the purity of raw testimony at moments.
I quickly became aware that many many many ppl were uncomfortable with me – but I couldn’t put my finger on it. Looks, many many looks, we’re talking hard core glares, also communion was passed and made very known I Was NOT allowed to partake, then it was apparent that no one knew my last name – and most everyone asked me who my parents were. I kept thinking 🤔 why do they care about my last name?
I asked specific questions to the workers, like how things worked regarding baptism as I wanted and was asking for guidance and since that was their “job” I wanted to know. I also was curious about why men were sleeping in homes with small children – I was shocked by this. It seems so off to me.
Remember I’m coming from zero meeting history – so I don’t know the way things are done. I didn’t know what an “open home” was either.
I have stopped attending – the Elder of my Sunday meeting told me hair being up in a bun was biblical, and it is an outward expression of a woman’s faith to Jesus. He told me that the man I was attending meeting with, I was tempting/leading him into adultery and how could I do that to him. I was told he would never marry me, so it’s about time I understand that. I was told my participation to the emblems was not right because I was not “professing”, and after two years of attending and speaking and loving God, I was not a Christian. I was told that the Workers are Gods voice and that I must obey them, I was told if men do not wear ties they lack faith, I was told that woman tempt men with their clothing, I was told essentially the “Way” was Gods only church.
Like said in the beginning – I came to meeting from a pure place of love and seeking to be close with others who wanted to follow Jesus.
So here I am two years later, not attending. I have seen some awful things, heard awful things from the “pulpit” and at the same time from others felt the true spirit of God, which I miss.
From a woman who knew nothing about God, nothing about meeting, take this from an outsider view, there are TWO meetings. One ☝️ like the Pharisees and the other of Jesus.
And it’s confusing, and sad.
I share this with you because I hope to shed light on why wearing pants IS important to CSA – it shows POWER is a real and sad issue in meeting with some. I can see how easy it would be to be a predator! I even told the person I came to meeting with that I suspected there is a lot of hidden pedos in the ministry – I could see how easy it might be.
Just food for thought – thank you for listening. I hope that compassion and love lead this fellowship rather than power of men.
Take it back ladies! Wear the pants! It’s WORTH fighting for! Teach your daughters the right “way”, you are Gods Daughter and he loves you. All of you, Red lipstick and all!
Dani
Keep the faith Dani. While the group might not be ready for you yet, God is and always has been.
Follow your convictions and always ask questions. It is the only way you activate your spiritual “smell test”. It makes me sad to see documented proof of the double standard. What you experienced was wrong in every way but have confidence it has nothing to do with God.
Thank you so much Sonora! I love God, and I am keeping the faith 🤍. I appreciate your response and your words.
I wanted to add I am not here to hurt anyone, but to simply Share my experience coming to God and meeting all in one.
After I stopped going to meeting I did have a Bible study with the workers (one overseer) – it was beautiful and I felt safe to share that I had stopped attending Sunday because of what was said to me.
I was moved to another meeting.
Instead of directing dealing with the Elder – I was moved. This pattern is dangerous.
Thank you for listening again.
I’m very very sorry that you had such a bad experience, Dani! We’re not all judgemental in this fellowship, but unfortunately many are…
Dear Dani,
My heart broke when I read your post. You are a good lady and did not deserve to be treated like that. Nobody deserves to be treated like people have been treating each other in this fellowship for years. There are more people like you than you might think. We’ve just been exiled to the fringe for various reasons where we are quietly living our lives, walking with Jesus and trying to stay off the radar. Turns out the fringe is not a bad place, though. It’s quiet, the Lord amply provides for us too, and some of the greatest folks you will ever meet anywhere are out here. Us fringers are exhausted and cynical because of what we have seen, been through and survived. We deeply wish things were different and we want change. Until then, we’ll be out here, keeping the faith. You are seen and you are loved, and you are what this fellowship needs even if it doesn’t know it yet.
I truly appreciate you sharing your experience, Dani. I can honestly say you’d be welcomed and loved by ALL the friends I know which are many! Unfortunately some in the fellowship have focused on a nonexistent dress code, and other pet “doctrines,” but also I see that slowly changing. Please don’t be discouraged, the problem is NOT in you! It’s in the hearts of those who look upon others with a judgmental eye and who do not depend on the leading of the Spirit. Thank you again for your inspiring testimony.
Dani, this makes me sad. So much of what you were told is ridiculous. As a teenager I dealt with some truly wild workers who were, to put it plainly, wrong. Even my mom just ignored them.
There’s a lot of sexism still but in my area, those old people are dying out.
Excellent letter and so perfect in the depictions. Loved the comment regarding there are two meetings
( perhaps in most or many, many meetings ) – one for the Pharasees and one for those trying to follow Jesus. That sums up so much!
Thank you, Dani, for sharing your perspective. We need to hear it. I agree with you, and I’m sorry that was your experience in our fellowship.
What has become clear is the overseer and senior workers are accountable to no one, and that is a huge problem. We see this lack of accountability currently by overseers not be honest and transparent in explaining to the church what went wrong and how this happened.
The overseer/senior worker group are the least accountable people I have ever witnessed.
Any position of authority must come with accountability. This lack of accountability is why this abuse has happened. And it is to the ministry’s great shame.
It is also clear the overseers and senior workers have one set of standards for themselves and another for the friends. The cognitive dissonance required to tell someone they cannot be baptized or take part, but to allow a criminal abuser to remain in the work is astounding.
It is more of a crime to have short hair and/or wear pants than to sexually assault someone. Something is SERIOUSLY wrong here folks. WHY would overseers condone such behaviour – because them themselves are involved????? Hmmmmmmmmm When I was in the work a brother worker was removed because of this. Another brother worker worked hard to make sure it didnt become known to the vast majority. WHY????? Have to question the reasoning and the character behind these decisions.
Let’s break down the “Beholder” comment:
1. “Church”
A “Church” by the implied interpretation is a public worship and/or building.
Jesus teaches it matter what is on the inside, not the public facing form. Standardized appearance appeals to our natural desire for belonging as well as a tool for control.
If we give up our self control to become part of a “church” we do it exchange with our direct relationship with God through Jesus.
2. “do what you want” – conviction and revelation
We will all be judged by our fruit. God alone knows the potential that we all have been given to be productive.
If we choose the ditch of hiding behind tradition (self-righteousness) or the opposite ditch of sin – we will be judged accordingly. That judgement belongs only to God.
Imbalance
The power imbalanced was initiated by “professing” people who prefer to worship tangible things.
By idolizing the workers we have destroyed them.
By leaving millions of dollars to the “homeless ministry” we hung a millstone around their necks.
As a group we need to dissolve everything that isn’t God serving (bank accounts, management without oversight, the complex idols of convention grounds etc.).
When we have returned again to a homeless ministry that is operated by faith we will attract again those who have lost out and be the light Jesus refers to in Jo8v12.
So many of our brothers, sisters, cousins and friends have left because the the hypocrisy and coverup (and the rape).
If we hope to again have fellowship with these people we love, we need to accept the truth of what our group has become. The first step is to actively reconcile our own service with our true teacher, Jesus.
Amen!! And to add my two cents… we need to get rid of our “system” foundation and rebuild our fellowship on Love (Jesus) – the right foundation.
Sonora, we also hope to have fellowship with you who we love someday again, not under man’s authority but under the authority and freedom of the Holy Spirit.
Also we have not “lost out” please don’t think that of us.
In “lost out”, I was specifically thinking about to those who have stopped serving God entirely because they associate God and Jesus with serial rapists and their enablers.
There are many experiences, I only reflect on the hopelessness this “brood of vipers” has brought on my own family and friends.
I couldn’t agree more Sonora, so many have their salvation in Jesus tied to imperfect men! This will get ugly but we need to be there for the ones who lose out.
Our daughter refuses to enter any type of church and cannot read the Bible anymore due to the abuse, outright lies, corruption and dirty looks she endured from elders, workers, friends, boyfriends, and relatives. She is still one on the best people you will ever know – just wish she could have experienced a decent Christian church in her youth. Believe she will be back someday but maybe not in my lifetime.
This was a post from this morning. I spoke with someone and their reaction to this letter was, “It is terrible. They’re trying to turn this into a worldly gathering and deciding they don’t need to pay attention to what God wants, They are leading people astray.”
that wasn’t my take on it. The letter does say to do what you are comfortable with. For myself, it just made me take a really good hard look inside myself. I don’t see myself wearing different attire for meeting, because what I wear for meeting is pretty much what I wear if I go to Edmonton grocery shopping. I do wear jeans etc. at home when I’m working and for comfort but that’s not what it what I wear or feel comfortable with when I’m going to something a bit more formal. A good part of that is because I am aware of what is most flattering on me.
I feel like in the past, when I’ve looked at others who don’t quite fit into the picture we have formed about what one of gods children “should” look like, I have looked at that and thought there might be a struggle, when in fact what I am basing that thought on is based on tradition and not doctrine. Lots to think about, but primarily this has made me take a good hard look inside myself.
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A standing ovation to original post!
Refusal to submit is the beginning of change.
The black stockings ceased after the female friends refused to wear them anymore.
Wow, what a suggestion. Refusal to submit. That is exactly the Spirit these people had.
Luke 19:14 KJV – But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
See verse 27 to find out how that went for them.
The spirit of rebellion is never in line with the spirit of Christ, but being patient and letting God take care of things to make them right is.
TRT, that is a good plan for anyone devoid of God, conscience and an understanding of justice.
How is having a rebellious spirit going to bring about justice for the victims? You don’t know God if you think rebellion is the right course of action. These things should have been dealt with years ago, as soon as they came up. Now it is being dealt with.
I understand people are angry and frustrated, but what is being suggested is simply rebellion, and does nothing to help the victims.
How am I promoting something devoid of conscience? The Bible shows us that a spirit of rebellion is not right.
What “rebellion” are you talking about? If manmade rules are abusive, you stand up against them and seek justice for those who are threatened, abused and mistreated. God works through people and always has. It starts with a conscience and ends up with doing what is right.
It’s ok. I was actually responding to Cheri’s call to refuse to submit. You have your ideas, I have mine. Refusal to submit is not in the Bible. David was anointed king 15 years before he became king. He refused to lift up his hand against Saul. He waited, enduring Saul’s attempts at his life, having to live in caves etc. Was that right? No. He could have taken things into his own hands, but he waited for God. God took care of Saul, and he took care of Absalom. When David was going to kill Nabal, Abigail came in the spirit of meekness to remind David that vengeance belongs to God.
Yes, God is currently using the hand of men to deal with evil in His kinfmgdom. But the Spirit of rebellion shouldn’t be promoted amongst His people.
You title yourself watchman, but as a watchman, I am wanting you to know that rebellion is against everything that the Bible teaches.
Psalm 46:10-11 KJV – Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Exodus 14:13-14 KJV – And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
Have a good day.
TRT, rebelling against man’s judgements and rules is complete different to rebelling against God. Cherie Kropp is NOT suggesting we rebel against God, but rather that we rebel against man made rules which are used merely as a form of intimidation and control. As a 60 year old woman who has always toed the ‘expected’ line, I am actually tempted to get my ears pierced merely to show that such things are irrelevant in the sight of God. Moderation and modesty are far more of a Godly testimony than total abstinence and a self-righteous spirit.
My comments here don’t appear anymore. The moderators seem to be either losing my posts or not allowing them to be posted. So we will see if this one is deemed unworthy to be published.
A person would do well to look at the life of David to see what is right in the eyes of God regarding dealing with people who are wrong. David waited patiently for 25 years for God to take care of Saul, even though he had been anointed king. He was unwilling to lift his hand against Saul.
When he was going to take care of Nabal, Abigail interceded to keep David from taking vengeance into his own hand.
When we stand still and see the salvation of God, then all of the glory goes to Him.
These things are going to be eliminated, God will cleanse His kingdom. But just be patient. When we push ahead, we can get ourselves in trouble, but when we are careful and prayerful, God will take care of things in His time, and He alone will be glorified.
I hope you understand that I am not saying these things are right, just it is good to look at how someone who wa “a man after God’s own heart” dealt with things that were not right.
It is always right to encourage people to pray and ask God, not to encourage people to “refuse to submit.”
Sorry. That was needlessly rude to the moderators of this website, who are freely giving us access to their site and are wading through this enormous stack of comments. Please accept my apology for a rude comment that was made out of frustration but with no respect to the owners of this site. Thank you all for this enormous amount of work you are doing. I am so sorry!
there are appropriate things of God to submit to, there are things that are highly inappropriate things of man that we do NOT submit to. I feel a lot of overseers are so weak because they are more concerned about the approval of man not of God. Afraid to lose the money that is freely flowing if they start developing a backbone.
It’s mind boggling how this “women should only wear skirts/dresses” thing became doctrine. Pants weren’t a thing back in biblical times, both men and women wore robes/tunics. Not to say that there weren’t differences between what men and women wore (I believe women’s robes were longer, for example). However, nowadays pants are considered the norm for both men and women, and in fact encouraged in professional settings. Go to a public space and look around you. I was at an airport recently and among the crowds there was just one woman wearing a dress, and she was by far the most provocatively dressed out of everyone I saw.
As a girl I had the same experience as many other professing women whose accounts I’ve read online or heard in person. I was allowed to wear sweat pants at school, but if we had workers over I had to change immediately. Often I had to come in through a back door and try to sneak to my room before they saw me wearing my sinful clothes. I will never forget the look on a visiting sister worker’s face (she was from Spain, her name was Mercedes) when she saw me in my school clothes. It was a mix of extreme disapproval and contempt. I had countless fights with my mom over clothes, makeup or accessories. Even though I was always very conservative-looking, she still disapproved of the way I dressed because I didn’t look “professing” (and still does).
My grandma, born in 1912, always had an issue with the dress code, even though she never wore pants herself. She thought pants were more modest, and she didn’t like the “easy access” skirts gave to men. I wonder if she had a bad experience she never shared.
Back in those days, she was given a very hard time about what colors were appropriate to wear, was forced to wear thick black or brown stockings (in the middle of summer, in a very warm climate), and was told it was sinful to wear a watch. Whenever sister workers would show up where she lived, people would stare, laugh and shout “come see these women in costume”! They looked completely out of touch with reality.
She was always looking forward to the day women would wear pants in meeting. Every time I came back from a trip abroad she would ask me if I had seen it yet! (She was hoping it would first start happening in a more “progressive” country)
I haven’t attempted to wear pants in meeting yet, but I do wear light makeup and keep my hair shoulder length. Once I had an encounter with a sister worker by the convention bathroom. She basically came up to me and told me that she used to wear makeup back in the day, and one day she didn’t and she looked at herself in the mirror and thought she looked horrible. And that’s when she made the decision that she needed to “work on her personality”… What a thing to say. I tried not to take offense, but I still think it was extremely rude of her. In no uncertain terms, telling me I needed to do the same!
I’m hopeful that we can remove these ridiculous man-made rules from our fellowship. Like others have commented, by no means do I intend to minimize the huge problem we’re facing with Child Sexual Abuse. But I do believe this dress code is a big part of conditioning and control, which has led to much more serious issues, such as child abuse.
For 2 years I’ve worn pants to spring special mtg, breakfast at convention, and every Sunday all winter long. I live where it’s very cold and skirts are neither practical or safe in the winter. I’ve worn my hair down for mtg since i was 20. I’m not thought highly of by many of the friends amd workers but I’m not looking for approval of men. If we stop complying, the control has no power.
That’s awesome! I wish I had your courage.
I, too, have worn my hair down since my late teens. Where I live we have very cold winters also and I always thought it was insane that I had to put on a skirt. I’m already the black sheep of our meeting, so might as well try wearing pants to meeting this winter 🙂 In the summer I’m actually comfortable wearing a dress to meeting.
But in general, when I’m home or out running errands I’m either in jeans or yoga pants. And I don’t change if I know the workers are coming to visit (which is rare, given my black sheep status…)
There are sister workers in other countries that sometimes wear pants (in everyday life, I don’t think to meeting) because that’s what’s culturally appropriate and modest for transportation (on motorbike). I wish your grandma could’ve known about that!
Thank you for your message! She particularly wanted to see change in the “meeting dress code” for women. Though I’m sure knowing that fact would have put a smile on her face 🙂
One of our hymns says “Silence all your thoughts and reasonings in subjection to His will”.
Your letter and this website in general are what happens when we start to use our human reasoning instead of obeying God. Our clothes and the way in which we maintain and present our hair are of extreme importance to the Lord. It gets mentioned over and over again in the Bible throughout the Old and New Testaments. Protecting children is all well and good, but it barely shows up in the Bible. When we become obsessed and conduct these witch hunts, we are worshiping idols instead of focusing on those things that God demands.
I’d rather maintain long hair and wear a dress now and have a hope of heaven, rather than have short hair and stylish clothes for a season and then get it all burned off in the lake of fire and get tortured for all eternity.
As another hymn says: “Long with you he pleaded, but you would not hear, now he cannot help you though you FAINT WITH FEAR”
This comment is so twisted and despicable that it shouldn’t be published. However, we will let it stand here as an example of why the fellowship is facing such a flood of information about criminal acts committed and being actively covered up.
Just when I thought my capacity for outrage had maxed out based on actual events in the church, this comment appeared. It’s either expert-level trolling, or cult-level derangement. Either way, it aptly illustrates the challenge in effecting real, lasting change in a system with these entrenched beliefs, and it will not happen overnight. The victims are real, their pain is real, and change is mandated, not optional.
Agree with you Jonathan –
WiFriends please take another look at your Bible. Also the hymns are not Gods word
Don’t believe everything you read. This is clearly trolling. I haven’t known anyone who thinks this way, at least not in my lifetime…
it’s cult level derangement. there are people who actually think this way.
Would love to know those verses in the New Testament that speak about women wearing skirts.
Also the women’s hair in a bun verses.
I just cannot find them.
It’s Old Testament: Deut 22:5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Deut 22:5 is an odd verse in that it is apropos of nothing – it has nothing to do with the preceding or subsequent verses, but it takes you where you didn’t expect to go…
This verse is routinely trotted out to justify no pants for women. But IMHO it is a misinterpretation that is the result of an euphemism in translation: if you use the online blue letter Bible to examine the original Hebrew, the phrase that is translated as “that which pertaineth to a man” is a Hebrew word meaning “utensil, apparatus, implement of hunting/war/music or tool” among other things. Not clothing.
For 97 percent of men there is no appeal to wearing a woman’s garment, but for 3 percent it is a kink/turnon. That would be offensive to God. Wearing men’s clothing is not a kink for women, but wearing, shall we call it a prosthetic phallus, would certainly fit with the original Hebrew and be an equally offensive kink in the eyes of God.
It also fits with the fact that some pagan idols/gods would switch from male to female and back at will, but that’s an entirely separate and very lengthy conversation…
Hair in a bun is traditional association avoidance from a time when only “loose” women wore their hair down.
Men wearing a tie is N American tradition – in much of Europe not even the workers wear ties because it is currently a cultural mark of someone you shouldn’t trust.
For myself, I haven’t worn a tie in meeting for years since I figured out their purpose: if woman wants to spice up an outfit she may choose a tighter fit or a lower neckline or a higher hemline or pick something sleeveless or even backless; but a guy… he picks a jazzier tie. It is the sexual part of formal dress for men. IMHO that has no place in a worship gathering.
The shape of a tie is phallic and resembles a miniature version of the Washington monument (significantly a gift from Egypt, a center of pagan idol worship). Pagan worship typically focused on the sun or the ability of the human body to reproduce. When you read in the old Testament of an image it usually refers to something like the Washington monument and it represents either the sun’s rays or a phallus. If a grove was mentioned, that was a large scale representation of the female pubis.
Even the modern-day church steeple actually has its origin in the image used in pagan worship.
Probably not what you were expecting, but now you know…
Change in our fellowship is an interesting phenomenon: when cars first appeared on roads they were toys of the wealthy. The sentiment of the day apparently was “Well Saints don’t need those!” Then when cars became mainstream, Saints didn’t need radios… TVs are still taboo but children now carry cell phones and the average age for a boys first exposure to porn is 10 years of age. As usual humans strain at gnats and swallow camels…
Wifriends, you say ”Our clothes and the way in which we maintain and present our hair are of extreme importance to the Lord.”
What did Jesus say about dress and outward appearance? NOTHING… except that you may look fine on the outside but inside you’re all kinds of corruption and perversion.
What did Jesus say if you don’t protect children? It’s better if you drown yourself in the sea! Ooops…did you miss that part? Oh, and all the many times Jesus referenced the child….
Yes, I know you also said “Protecting children is all well and good” How very generous of you!! But pretty astoundingly dismissive.
As a professing man with two babies, I’m stunned by this comment. You take the time to quote hymns written by men/women, but let’s pause and quote the book on which our faith is founded, aka The Bible.
You say, “Protecting childer rarely shows up in the bible”… Yikes! Let’s see what Jesus has to say about this.
Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”
You mention that our outward appearance is “of extreme importance to God.” Well, let’s see what God has to say about that.
1 Samuel 16:7
“But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”
Lastly, you seem concerned that you will be destined for Hell if you don’t dress a certain way. I don’t really see that in the bible, either.
Do you really think so little of our Saviour’s sacrifice? Is his blood meaningless? Is our Father really so unkind?
I pray that you get a better understanding of this.
As for this letter, I applaud it. I will love you as a Brother and Sister in Christ no matter what clothes you choose to wear. After all, the Body of Christ is made up of many different members.
Wonderful post, daydestin. I want a future in this fellowship for your babies and mine. What this letter says and people like you are the way forward and our hope for the future.
Interesting because we were always told that it was to show submissiveness to our husbands… Hair in bus, dresses, skirts etc. My husband does NOT like my hair in a but and it NOT a fan of long skirts or dresses? NOTE our looks are NOT as important to God as our spirit… I know a few woman that dress as you suggest but are just plain awful people!!
Sorry I should have edited this before sent but rage had taken over
“wiFriends”,
You appear to be a religious zombie. You can bite me, but you’ll have to catch me first. Alternatively, you could just wake up from your deep sleep, and join the rest of us in our new reality. Changes will be made with or without you.
So, wiFriends–guess why the worship of idols was such an abomination to God? Guess why the children of Israel were supposed to root out those idol worshippers and completely destroy their culture/religion? Someone, wiFriends, needs to spend a little time in the Old Testament…Here’s the clincher: they were SACRIFICING CHILDREN to idols! And that is the jist of it. God isn’t so insecure that he’ll order people to be destroyed simply because they are Buddhist, or Hindu…no, he ordered those people destroyed because of their vile practices including the sacrifice of children to their idol. Which is exactly what some people are doing now–rather than worshipping God, they have instead worshipped the church, and in doing so, they are sacrificing children. Idolatry leads to no good place.
Well said, Lorraine. This is child sacrifice to the idol of “the perfect way” and its man made image. Our God abhors this.
Amen.
Amen
Go to your nearest school district and become a driver or transportation aide and when you have to get down on the floor of a school bus to tie down wheelchairs then do come and talk to me about the pants issue. Oh, and I work with lots of older men as well as very young men. I’m sure they would like to see a dress up over my rearend.
This mindset is the exact requirement for keeping this system afloat as is. How many times at convention have we been encouraged to stay on the inside and keep looking in? You are following orders, wiFriends. Unfortunately, the result of that has only ever been implosion.
Wisconsin really needs to read Leviticus 20:1-3. Sacrifices of any child was punished with death to the offender. CSA is essentially the same thing. Keep reading in the same chapter and you will read about punishment for SA and other deplorable acts that are hard for most to imagine. Do not ever recall this chapter peached about during my 60 plus years in attending meetings.
I’m hoping you’re a troll, but sadly I don’t think you are. So, let me get this straight: to you, having long hair and wearing a dress is more important for your salvation than doing the bare minimum to protect children from being sexually abused in this fellowship. Got it, thanks.
As a member of God’s Kingdom that was sexually abused as a child I am disgusted by your attitude “wiFriend”. To say “Protecting children is all well and good, but it barely shows up in the Bible” is so wrong and unChrist-like. Have you read Matthew 18:6 “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” To be clear, those are Jesus words. Those are Jesus thoughts on Child Sexual Assault in God’s Kingdom. Wear whatever clothes you want, put your hair up in a bun, I really don’t care. But do not ever speak so unChrist-like in the presence of seriously wounded people on this forum that experienced CSA or had a loved one that was sexually assaulted. My anger at your callus remark is overwhelming right now. Take your self-righteousness somewhere else.
This reply us actually funny! This person should be a stand-up comedian! I’m actually rolling on the floor laughing!! It’s an awesome comment.
WiFriends, please, PLEASE quit your day job and start your new comedy career! I would pay big money to see your shows! Please! Love you!
The God I believe in understands the sovereignty of each person; each soul. Yes, He is our Lord, but we are each individuals before God. We are His children, but we make our free will choices. Yes the Holy Spirit can be persuasive. But we are STILL allowed free will and our own choices. What we wear and how we appear: No one has a right to dictate something so personal; what you put on you own body. This is not really a “my body my choice” moment, but in a way, it is. God gave us these bodies. We are to honor them on the inside FIRST; it is to be temple. The inside of the temple is what God is most interested in; it is there that the most sacred things between you and God take place. If it is not honored on the inside, whatever is on the outside means nothing; ZERO. I have long been the type of person that is more concerned about what I put INTO my body; or the kinds of atmospheres I am in; as these things have far reaching effects on our overall health.
1 Peter 3: 3-4
“Don’t try to make yourselves beautiful on the outside, with stylish hair or by wearing gold jewelry or fine clothes. Instead, make yourselves beautiful on the inside, in your hearts, with the enduring quality of a gentle, peaceful spirit. This type of beauty is very precious in God’s eyes.
You’re right, clothing and outward is not important in God’s eyes.
Thank you to the author of the post and the commenters who have spoken up in support. We owe it the the victims to make sure these crimes stop happening now! Addressing the systemic oppression of women through judgement of how they dress and look will help. We need to empower our women and girls to speak up and speak out. I believe there is enough space and love for all of us to live by our own convictions.
Just like the Pharisees, the truth has been adding unbiblical rules for the friends to follow since the beginning when William Irving founded the truth.
The dress code for women leads to pride and judgement but not holiness.
Please read about the history of this man made religion. It didn’t start on the Sea of Galilee but in Ireland by an unbalanced, charismatic, and immoral man.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_by_Twos
Just like the Pharisees, the truth has been adding unbiblical rules for the friends to follow since the beginning when William Irving founded the truth.
The dress code for women leads to pride and judgement but not holiness.
Please read about the history of this man made religion. It didn’t start on the Sea of Galilee but in Ireland by an unbalanced, charismatic, and immoral man.
Thank you for this letter and for opening up this conversation. I have been unpacking this recently, as I peel back the layers of tradition that have distracted me from my actual service to God. I am ashamed of how I have judged people on their outward appearance, thinking I could know what was inside from their dress, hair, and jewelry. We are so easily conditioned to put weight on the physical but it takes away from a spirit-led relationship with God.
Others shared some ways it’s connected to the larger issue of CSA by the power structure and control. To add to that, judging the cup from the outside seems to be a driving factor in the way CSA and SA crimes have been handled. 1) Protecting the “look” of the ministry/ church over protecting the flock/ church, 2) thinking you can judge a person to be good/bad from their outside look or demeanor especially doesn’t work when there’s been abuse. Not only do perpetrators typically choose victims that are vulnerable/ subordinate but after someone has been abused they typically have mental health issues that make them seem less trustworthy.
A friend in our field recalled the first time she saw a sister worker walk barefoot in her kitchen (not wearing black stockings, gasp) when she was a child, she was so shocked by it. For our generation that sounds so trivial. Looking back that is how this transition will look, trivial.
Up until the last months, I have stood by the tradition of outward appearance. I thought about what Paul says in Romans 14 about not wanting to offend and be a stumbling block by doing something someone else is convicted about, even if we aren’t convicted about it ourselves. Recently God has been helping me see how it is a stumbling block to continue upholding strict traditions and baseless rules. A stumbling block to the fellowship and a stumbling block to people seeking God out who are distracted by strict unspoken rules in our church.
I think God is trying to unpack that for many right now. Change is uncomfortable, especially when the thing changing has been linked to Godliness. But I am working towards having a relationship with God where he can reveal things to me that go against what I’ve been comfortable with and be less invested in human approval. As my friend says, don’t put God in a box.
With love from NC,
Jana
Jana, your comments are a great summary of how many of us have reacted – “I don’t get it, but I don’t want to offend anybody either “. Thanks for your input, it succinctly explains the problem and the solution.
MAX, I am so sorry about your daughter. My husband and I will pray for her tonight. God knows her suffering and I believe there is much grace in heaven for her.
Thanks Kim – we appreciate your prayers. She is a very strong person and I believe that she knows God better than most due to her love of people and nature. Being deceived by the “Truth” is a very bad thing for many and the results can be tragic. Some go completely off the deep end and others are drawn closer that ever to God. Thanks again.
I wasn’t able to reply to your earlier comment Max so I’m very glad Kim commented. I am so very sad about what happened to your daughter. I know many of us will be praying for her.
I just want to add that I am also glad that there is a growing feeling for breaking free from things that are in fact contrary to what would be sound doctrine.
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I do want to mention a few red flags that have come up when reading this post and the ensuing comments. Because I realize that there is a huge difference between simply unloading and actually effecting change. Please hear me out – I know it’s going to sound like preaching and I totally don’t mean that. I just am giving my observations.
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One of the things that I’ve learned about myself, is that when I find myself getting “incensed” or “outraged” or anything in between, those feelings are not from God. When I realized this about myself, it has helped me to step back and take a look at what I’m trying to hold on to. This is why I’ve been particular sensitive to this happening here. Anything that isn’t really ours, anything where we allow our feelings to be dictated by the actions/words/emotions of others, creates an unhealthy and pretty much unsolvable situation. It’s a co-dependency. Anything we feel defensive about, we don’t own yet.
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Unfortunately, and I speak for myself, trauma such as CSA can exacerbate this and make it difficult to overcome. But in spite of that, it’s simply not effective for real change to take place. It’s just not going to happen.
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I’ve read a lot here about those that feel like they are the black sheep, not taken seriously, pushing the envelope, so to speak, and going against tradition. Obviously this situation has not been effective at producing change in the church traditions. It simply marks us as weak, or a rebel. I’ve thought a lot about this – if certain traditions are so entrenched amongst those who would, by all measurements, be considered the most invested, most faithful, of the group, how can change even happen? What does it take to get people to take us seriously? I’ve kind of been consumed by this question the last couple of weeks.
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I’m quite timid – I’m not one to rock the boat. If someone who could be my mother tells me in the meeting that she thinks my skirts are too short, I’ll wear them longer. To me, peace is more important, and as a professional, I know that dressing for the sake of minimizing distraction is extremely important in the business world especially for us women. And if I’m causing a distraction for even one person in the meeting, I’m willing to change that, even if I think it’s ridiculous.
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I’m not old enough to have first-hand understanding about the transition from black stockings. But I do remember another situation. I wasn’t there to witness it – this is second hand – but it affected all of us. It was when red was the evil color because of its connection to the red light district. The overseer of Texas, William Lewis got up on the platform wearing a red cardigan. I really don’t know anything about the man, so I’m not here to condone or defend him. What I realized, however, is that it took someone like him to put a stop to this ridiculous expectation. Because he was well respected. He wasn’t working on the fringes.
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I’ve watched with interest the changes of my day – as one by one traditions are shed away. One of them was ties for the men and pantyhose for the women. This has more or less followed the loosening of such expectations in the professional world. I remember when we all carefully hid our toes and now we’re wearing flip flops on Sunday. Well, I’m not sure I’ve worn flip flops to a meeting yet, because I feel a bit convicted about living up to a professional code of dress and then thinking that Sunday should be casual. But that’s just my personal expectations of myself. I have no problem when another does so.
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I have a personal experience that happened when I was a young adult that has helped me along these lines ever since, and it’s been on my mind a lot as I seek to learn how to recreate it in a larger way in myself. I moved to a much more conservative part of the country. And I always wore short sleeves to the meeting. It took me a while to realize that I was the only one who was. Amazingly, nobody ever said anything, likely because I was new. But when it dawned on me, there was no going back – I refused to start adhering to that rule unless someone were truly offended by it and said something to me. So it occurred to me, I just need to decide that it’s ok and be confident with my decision that it wasn’t against the teachings of Jesus – and just to love my way into their hearts so that they couldn’t care less about my short sleeves. I think it worked – I have no idea what they said behind my backs, but they treated me like their daughter and I loved them from the bottom of my heart, no matter how steeped in tradition some of them were. They were sincere and they loved God and his son Jesus and were waiting for His return. What more could I expect from the fellowship?
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I’m just not convinced that general mindset changes – like those pertaining to the unwritten dress codes and such other natural things – are going to be effectually changed by a group of people getting together and deciding to try to convince the powers that be that we need to change things. Nobody can hear that. To me this is a very individual change. And it’s going to be brought about one by one by those that are loved and respected, that have invested themselves in the fellowship and have a deep love for everyone, that the recipients can clearly feel. I know for myself this has been very effective. I remember when the first sister was in our home who didn’t have on pantyhose and I was momentarily shocked, but I loved and appreciated her so much that I didn’t even think about it again while she was with us. As I thought about it later, I was so thankful that she had the courage to step over a line that I KNEW needed to be erased – but I just needed a little nudge to realize that it wasn’t doctrine. In fact, it was nothing.
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Now, for a number of years, I haven’t even used “thee and thou” in my prayers, after hearing workers doing it. I hated the way it sounded at first, but it wasn’t too long before I’d completely bought into it. My mother had a melt down over that one, and I’m not sure she’s yet convinced that it’s ok. But I love her, and do it anyway.
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I know this is likely a lot less popular opinion, but I am not convinced that the workers as a group, nor the overseers specifically, are the ones holding us back on these traditions. Maybe there are a few that get up on the platform and preach about those things. Somehow we get hung up on listening to a few vocal ones that are often way in left field. I think it’s simply a generation gap, with a certain amount of exceptions.
“Educate and empower”, I’m not sure I understand your point. You are saying you’ve been thankful for workers who took a stand and dared to be different. You’re also saying that in some ways you’ve done it yourself. I appreciate that you don’t want to be a stumbling block and cause offence, but clearly these workers risked that in order for positive change to happen. Also, think of those for whom adherence to man-made rules and traditions has become a stumbling block over the years.
You say that you don’t think workers are responsible for holding us back, but you gave three examples of workers who didn’t “follow the rules” and how that made you and others reconsider your views on clothing and using “thees and thous”. Obviously we all have been looking up to the workers in one way or another, so I do think they are, at least largely, responsible for the status quo of our fellowship. Yes, only a few will stand up and speak against certain attire or makeup, but I’ve never heard any speak out against our man-made rules. I hope some have, but I never witnessed it or heard of it happening.
I may have misunderstood the original letter, but the message to me was that this WAS going to be an individual decision. I’m not aware of anyone collecting the names of women who will show up in pants at convention or anywhere else, or anyone organizing a movement. I think this letter may be an encouragement for some to do what they have believed to be right all along. Again, that’s how I perceived it.
Ellie, thanks for your response. I am aware that the point of what I’m trying to say can be lost by reason of using too many words to explain it.
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Going and getting my ears pierced to prove a point – how do you think that the meeting is going to look at that? Are they going to say, “Yes! Now we are free from this stupid tradition!”. Of course not – it’s just not how it happens. Rather, they are going to think, “I wish that she would give up her rebellion and find true joy in unity” or some such other thought. Rebellion never gets taken seriously. Not here, not anywhere.
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Everyone knows my spirit, and if I have a spirit of rebellion, I’ll never get taken seriously – in fact it drives people the opposite direction. If I act like you’re a victim of tradition, then nobody will hear I, and all I do is make myself more bitter and less credible in the eyes of others.
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But – if they know I love them and am really invested in the fellowship – and they love my spirit of unity – I can guarantee that it will create an entirely different reaction if I come in wearing earrings. It might throw everyone for a loop – but when I continue to show them a spirit of love and unity and have a wonderful spirit and humble response when questioned – I think it makes a clear difference. This is is just the way normal human interaction works and is not confined to spiritual settings – This isn’t rocket science.
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If you’ve had workers on that kind of a pedestal, that’s YOUR problem. Perhaps you should be questioning your parents for teaching you that unscriptural belief.
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Before that incenses you entirely, I do understand that those in authority will automatically have greater mental control over us as well. I still think that’s a product of those of a previous generation (my mothers’ parents) wanting the workers to be like the powerful preachers of the churches they were coming out of. It’s an error in the group mindset.
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The generation gap was a big point I was trying to make. My mother is a lot stricter in her beliefs than most of the workers I know. And especially once a certain age – maybe retirement – is hit – then even the simple error of unknowingly sitting in someone’s chosen pew in the meeting is grounds for being considered a rebel! Which happens to me when I visit my mother and go to meeting with her. And I think many of the older sister and brother workers would be subject to this same age-related issue. We love them dearly and take into account their generation and experiences.
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And I’m not saying that everyone in the same generation acts the same way – but it’s harder to find someone under 60 who is fully on board with the old fashioned traditions.
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Instead of reducing our credibility and thus our ability to make a difference by doing rebellious things – how about we take time to invest ourselves in the fellowship and gain a reputation of being a loving contributing member – then by our reputation we can effect a lot more changes to the group mindset.
Thanks for taking the time to help me understand your point.
I’m not sure why you’re making this personal though, by saying that I’m “putting the workers on that kind of a pedestal”. I’m not sure what type of a pedestal you’re referring to since I never mentioned that I did anything of the sort. I just said that we tend to look up to the workers, which is understandable since they’ve made a huge sacrifice by devoting their entire lives to the ministry. That doesn’t mean I’ve put them on a pedestal, though I know many have, or at least had in the past. Clearly a big mistake.
You’re saying that we should steer clear of “rebellious things” and focus on “investing ourselves in the fellowship” and being a “loving contributing member”. Does that mean that women who choose to dress non traditionally to meeting automatically aren’t those things? That would be quite a judgement to make on someone just based on what they choose to wear.
“But – if they know I love them and am really invested in the fellowship – and they love my spirit of unity – I can guarantee that it will create an entirely different reaction if I come in wearing earrings”.
Wouldn’t that still be a rebellious thing to do?? You know that none of the friends wear earrings but you still choose to come to meeting wearing them. Do you see my point? How do you bring change if no one dares to non-conform? Change comes by people pushing for it little by little and it doesn’t have to be done in an aggressive or confrontational way. And guess what, this worker you mentioned, wearing the red cardigan on the platform – I bet some people thought he was being “rebellious” at the time.
I don’t claim to have all the answers and I also don’t intend on changing the way I dress to meeting anytime soon. I’m comfortable in my appearance but in the past I did have to push some people’s boundaries to get to this point (definitely my mom’s). I didn’t do it intentionally to irk or upset them, and they knew that. I just wasn’t comfortable in adhering to their standards of a what a professing woman should look like. I think that’s the ultimate goal, to be respectful but also comfortable in the way you present yourself.
Hi Ellie, and thanks again for your thoughtful response. The things I said to you personally, I meant them to be read as “you” generally and I’m sorry they came across so pointedly at you.
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I didn’t intend to imply that we should steer clear of doing things that others would see as rebellious – more I am talking about the spirit in which they are done. We’ve come a long way already, and each generation has seen a progression from dead works by which we could judge ourselves and others. And in studying how previous things were successfully overcome, it seems to me that it’s not about having the courage to take a stand, so much as it is that we truly feel that a certain tradition amongst us is standing in the way of our ability to freely enter into this wonderful fellowship. I think it has to be a conviction for ourselves personally rather than feeling it needs to be for the whole fellowship. And I think it can only empower others to do the same when we are clearly invested in the fellowship and truly love our meeting; and those in our meeting know we love them and care about them and want the best for their soul.
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The earrings were a bad example and I’m sorry about that. One thing I am indeed mindful of is that no matter how wonderful our spirit is, if the meeting in general is not ready for such a thing, it will simply backfire and it won’t be to our credit. Love is willing to do things for the sake of others’ conscious. Change does need to be slow so that others have time to process it. Some people truly seem to find comfort in things always being the same from the time that they/their predecessors made their choice to be a part of this fellowship. We love them and cringe at their constant criticisms of those who are more progressive. I think they need our extra love and care as a form of assurance as we make changes for the sake of our own peace of heart, and to be more in line with scriptures. They don’t need convinced, they need assurance.
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Really, all that matters is our only doctrine – that we love one another as Jesus loved us. If we make changes with that as our guide, I have a feeling that God would be laying that same change on many hearts, and we will find we are not alone. This seems to have been the case in past days as well.
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These are just my thoughts in trying to understand what actually works to effect change, and what will ultimately backfire on us.
To:Sir/Madam who goes by the name of “Gay bar”
Now that’s really cute, “Gay bar”, great way to flag your gossip!
Did you dig into and research the veracity of your continuation to forward this story? And do you have ANY evidence that this information is not true? If you don’t, then YOU are spreading gossip that highlights the creepiness of this information. If you have evidence that supports your claim, then you better clear that up. Otherwise you’re just casting more unwarranted suspicion on what may be a non-event. Just explain!!
Also Concerned, I think the commenter who signed their name as “Gay bar” was making a very valid point – that if there’s not sufficient evidence to back up such an outrageous claim, it is nothing more than slander, which doesn’t help anyone to take any of the claims seriously then. Making the statement that Jim was in a gay bar is hardly a non-event. It’s a rather serious allegation and deserves to be questioned and proof be demanded. The point “Gay bar” was trying to make was that if someone were looking for a secret gay relationship, a public bar is likely the last place they would go for fear of being found out. I don’t know Jim – maybe he is dumb enough to do something like that, but I personally find it a bit far fetched, especially that the other workers would be covering for him (However, stranger, worse things have happened – I don’t question its possibility). Based on what you said, “do you have any evidence that this information is not true?” – By expecting the questioner to blindly accept every allegation until proven false, how does this make you or the one making this allegation any different than the very ones that you’re accusing?
The bitter seeds who run this website are happy to approve the slanderous, unproven accusations entirely unrelated to CSA. Just as long as it makes the fellowship and workers look bad. But if you try to post Godly, well-reasoned discussion of what the Bible says, it will never be approved.
EXACTLY!! And that’s the point of my post, Educate and Empower. Saying, “oh that’s just gossip” just elevates the visibility of the post when you have likely made NO EFFORT to determine which/how many workers were told, what parts are true or not. “Gay Bar” DIDN’T EVEN ASK, because perhaps he/she didn’t want to know. Yes, all rumours need to be investigated if you feel so moved as to refute them. Yes, of course, refute and scoff if you have to but for goodness sake do your homework.
You say “It’s a rather serious allegation and deserves to be questioned and proof be demanded.” Well then! Question and demand proof! “Gay Bar” didn’t. They just spun another silly supposition about how smart or foolish Jim may be. Which is straight up gossip!
An aside…would it have been more acceptable if it had been a sports bar?
wiFriends, We are here by the invitation of those that run this website. They have the right to determine what they post and what they don’t. If you don’t like it, you are free to start your own website.
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Also concerned, I’ll repost here “Gay Bar’s message in its entirety:
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Jim seen in a gay bar – this sounds like a nice gossip rumour. Are all rumors to be investigated? If he was looking for discreet gay relationships there are plenty of options instead of a gay bar…
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To me it’s clear that he did question and demand proof – perhaps the wording was too complex for clarity: “Are all rumors to be investigated?” And he/she gives explanation why he/she thinks that it could have been just a rumor rather than actual fact. So clearly he/she did want to know.
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The other two allegations regarding coverups by Mike Hassett and Merlin Affleck – we have clear explanations for these allegations on this website and they would be a concern – because they have a real affect on victims. But this about Jim has nothing to do with CSA/SA. If it’s true, it would be a concern for whether or not he should stay a worker as it’s a very poor choice for one who has been elevated to overseer (and also stupid, given it’s a public place). But it has nothing to do with CSA/SA and amounts to nothing more than character assassination by being included with legitimate allegations unless it’s clearly proven to be true. In fact, by being included in this list, I think most of us completely forgot about what the important accusations were against the other two overseers and concentrated solely on this juicy bit of gossip.
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By your sarcastic belittling response to “Gay Bar”, it gives the appearance that you’re more interested in having a place to freely accuse and slander anyone, rather than focusing on uprooting some of the systemic issues amongst the oversight regarding CSA/SA. Maybe that’s not your intended point and if not, then you’ve also been misunderstood based on what you wrote.
WiFriends you have completely missed the point. Makes me wonder if you have a lot to lose by exposure of all the rot within our church (maybe if nothing else you’re a “superior saint”?)
In response to your accusation that this website is run by “bitter seeds” who are out to make the fellowship and workers look bad I would have to disagree. It is run by four people, three of whom are still in active fellowship within our church. They do not want to destroy the church.
The website was set up to deal with only CSA, but God allowed Dean Bruer to die in a motel and thus open the floodgates to exposing the corrupt and criminal practises of some among us.
Regards what gets posted, they seem to be doing a pretty fantastic job of remaining neutral in that regard. I’ve seen a few pretty vile comments posted and given this websites stand against CSA, I know they would be vile to them also.
If the discussion bothers you, maybe just stay off the website?
Jim Atcheson was seen by Brand who was in the work a long time ago, he is still alive. Brand abused someone we know. The victim met with him to begin some form of healing.
While they talked he mentioned that he had seen Jim in a gay bar. Brand was/is a practicing gay man. Brand and the victim told the workers who informed Jim in advance. It’s how they work to cover for each other.
This is so dumb. Wear pants. Wear jewelry. Wear makeup. Very few people will actually care. It’s probably shocking to realize how little people stop to spend time and think “well THIS PERSON is doing something wrong.” This has nothing to do with child abuse, sexual abuse, etc. Paul DID say to let your adornments be your spirit but you do you. If wearing pants is the hill you wanna die on, go for it. I’ve been in plenty of meetings with women in pants, even jeans, who took part. If I looked around gospel meeting, so many people have dyed hair, wear makeup, wear nail polish. It’s not a rule. It’s a personal conviction and personal decision. Wear pants and stop trying to use this actual awful crisis to further your own agenda.
‘Here I Go’ I agree that clothing should be irrelevant but just curious, what country do you live in? I’ve been in the UK, Ireland, NZ and Australia in recent years and NEVER seen females wearing trousers in fellowship meetings, convention or gospel meetings (unless they are ‘outsiders’ for lack of a better term).
Same here. Lived in the US and different parts of Europe, never seen it or heard of it happening.
In the USA. Without getting too specific, I think I’m in the most spiritually liberal part of the USA. Our overseer is awesome too. In the past he’s sent a few thing that were supposed to be encouraging suggestions about how we dress, and sure, some parts were a bit dated, but he really just encouraged everyone (men & woman) to be more modest and less high fashion. Part of this area is quite wealthy & one of the conventions looked like a runway. He’s also had an excellent response to all the things that have been happening. In my meetings, we have 1 lady who always wear jeans and another who wears pant suits. I’ve seen others dressed similarly at conventions.
I feel sorry for so many of y’all because it seems like there are a lot of people just making up rules for how professing people are supposed to be. I’ve often wondered what would happen if people stopped conforming to some of the clearly made up rules – west coast doctrine, I’m looking at you. The divorce thing is ridiculous but that’s a comment for another day.
‘’Here I Go’ thanks for responding; your overseer sounds great. …. can we all come and join you! 😉😁
Actually, our overseer isn’t bad either and when I read of the behaviour and attitude of a lot of the N.American overseers I feel very grateful for what we have. The KJV here is slowly dying out and NIV and NLT are used by a lot, particularly the younger generation but also quite a few of the older under 60s. Younger generation are also bringing changes in clothing, makeup (and probably jewellery will follow) and most of our workers who would have preached those things are either in resthomes or died. I feel our younger generation females will eventually also start wearing trousers to meetings.
In light of the current situation all these things seem petty, but the reality is there have been SO many rules around clothing/appearance for women. We even had a visiting worker from overseas tell us a couple of years ago “Men are known by their Spirit, women by their dress”. 🙄
I agree that this should not be and I have started wearing pants to convention, Sunday morning, gospel and special mtgs. But I have also been judged. It IS looked down upon by at least some of the workers and friends. We mentioned to the sisters that we really appreciated someone in our mtg. This women had been professing for maybe 2 yrs and she feels the outward appearance just doesn’t matter so she hasn’t conformed to any of our rules. The sisters comment to us was Well, she still has some things she needs to work on. Really!!?? Don’t we all?! We knew the unspoken was her hair, jewelry,pants. So people in our fellowship DO stop and think oh look what she’s wearing, she must be on her way out. It’s a sad reality in our fellowship.
I know older ladies who their whole professing lives REFUSED to wear black stockings in the 20-30’s. Apparently that was considered a definition of “modesty” by some in that era 😅.
I’m not a female (I’m pretty sure) so probably shouldn’t even comment.
As an observant father & gfather, there are more appropriate and safer ways to exhibit modesty for today’s active young ladies. 🤷🏽♂️
Regardless, I agree: this discussion has strayed from CSA and devastates the original mission of these admisistators .☹️
Hi Junior,
As an older male (grandfather), you are speaking from a position of privilege and I don’t think you are qualified to comment on whether there is a connection between an antiquated dress code that causes power imbalance and CSA. If you can control how a female dresses, how much easier does that make it to control her in other ways?
Having 2 older sisters, one daughter, 6 granddaughters AND a mother who grew up going to and (sometimes participating) I humbly beg to differ with your opinion of my qualifications. But unlike most here, I did not come to judge anyone’s beliefs 😊🤗
I have always dressed western, hat, boots,shirts, even tho from Minnesota. Possibly out of place in some circumstances, but am comfortable being me. Am 80 and retired in Arizona and still wear my boots and hat🤠🤠. In my early 20’s, girlfriend and I escaped from back door of meeting shed after seeing Peter Hunter heading our direction 🤣. Don’t think he liked boots and hat.
I have always made comments since my youth about the absurdity of the dress code. I recall back in the 60s, early 70s, even workers wore their skirts at the knee. Then in the mid-70s, middies came back into fashion and I wanted one in the worst way. I was told it was wrong, I was trying to be like the world. Seriously, a skirt that is more modest, like my mother and her sisters used to wear in the 50s was worldly??? And a maxi length, I was just trying to get attention. Well, every woman worker today wears middies or maxi skirts. What changed? Are they worldly? That is today’s style.
So I want to add my thoughts here about how this crazy dress code came into being. I may be completely off base, but this became my revelation when I started watching movies set in the 19th century. Back then, women did not wear pants, and at a certain age, young women wore their hair up. It would have been the prostitutes, or other women of questionable character that wore their hair down, and later that cut their hair short. I don’t need to go into all the other fashion changes, but you get the drift. Those attitudes somehow became entrenched in our fellowship. They are certainly not scriptural. It only talks about modesty. And let me tell you, dresses are not always modest attire, which I can attest to when I was wearing one and the wind blew my skirt up over my head revealing a lot more than the shortest mini skirt to every man that was standing around. More than a little embarrassing. Dress should be a factor of the era you live in, not some outdated attitudes that no longer exist outside our fellowship. If the workers are going to preach false religion, does that exclude the Amish and Mennenites (sp) who have a dress code? They wear dresses and hair up as also.
I find this the same with the attitude about TV. I understand that we need to not let electronic devices take over our lives, but to allow computers and the internet (way easier access to porn, etc.) but a TV is forbidden makes no sense.
But I will not go on. I just think understanding where the attitudes and traditions probably originated helps further the conversation.
Thanks for your thoughts on dress code. I have always thought that there is no need to dress frumpily or in an old fashioned way. Modesty is the order.
How many times did Jesus disappear in the crowd; he was obviously dressed appropriately in the order of the day.
We take so much literally and ignore the rest. I see no problem with jewellery, in fact Abrahams servant provided Rebecca with a nose ring and bracelets. Yet wearing of jewellery is frowned upon.
Again all Timothy recommends is that we are modest and not given to excess whereby we draw attention to ourselves.
Alcohol is another point which is not allowed but the Bible is full of it and in fact turning water into wine was Jesus first miracle. Again moderation; if we don’t imbibe how can we show moderation.
Anyway just my thoughts.
Months later, I now see more clearly how visual tells like dress and appearance have an adverse effect. I apologize for my comments several months ago.
@wvpeaches As a co- author of this post, and also a survivor of CSA (which I did not have the courage to reveal in the original post) I thank you for coming back with your comments. Over the last few months, I have learnt that we all need to be patient and kind to each other. We are all coming to these terrible truths from different places. The power that has been given to the workers through our compliance to their rules, which have nothing to do with God’s righteousness, has allowed the imbalance and therefore the abuse. Something else that I have stopped doing recently is referring to this church as The Way, The Truth etc. I just call it the church now. Over 50 years of conditioning to unravel. Thanks again and I wish you all the best.
Hi, does anyone know whether this movement among professing women to wear pants and jewellery to the meetings has been making any progress anywhere in the world? Unfortunately, it appears to be a non starter where I live!
Maybe …just maybe, it is a non-starter because no one wants to be a ‘starter’.
Could it be part-and-partial of the same psyche where the speaking up about CSA was a non-starter? The fear of man or the religious enterprise?
Or do/did both scenarios carry an element of ‘respect’ for our friends and workers and the religious institution?
Or are both scenarios a condition of ‘fitting in’?
I understand though – one matter is a weighty matter of justice and judgement – the other not so much.
@ Your Brothers and Sisters In Christ – I’m going to guess this is from a group that doesn’t believe that Peter and his peers writings are from Jesus teaching them. In I Timothy 2 & I Peter 3 both mention the adorning of gold and silver, and plaiting the hair, etc. But rather to adorn ourselves with shamefacedness, sobriety, and a meek and quiet Spirit…the hidden man of the heart, which is not corruptible.
I have no problem with the wearing of pants that are modest, because there’s no scripture to advise what women are to wear as far as clothing goes. In many countries our American clothing that our workers have insisted we wear far more closely resemble “mens attire” than that of the women around the world. Perhaps some man in Europe decided he wanted quicker access?? Because the tradition of skirts being “4 inches above the ankle” or “At your knee” (depending on their original religious training) is nothing more than religious traditions that were brought over from Europe with the first ministers who came…because theyprobably felt like that was part of “being Godly”. However, if you are trying to keep modest and not draw attention to your “desireable parts” you may want to consider wearing a tunic or something similar to cover your arse so you aren’t drawing attention to your now very outlined one! Use common sense when it comes to modesty, because that too can be taken overboard. This is where Temperance comes in. Today, we see women walking around with only their eyes showing to other’s walking around in what appears to be their underwear or pajamas/nightwear. Having Temperance in our lives will keep us from those extremes, because it helps us to not be seeking attention.
However…
I Cor 11 tells us about women’s hair, it’s to be used for a head covering durin prayer and prophesying, and we are told in 1 Thessalonians 5 to “pray without ceasing”. Does that mean it has to be in a chignon or “bun”, no. But, again Temperance will help us to keep it in a way to not draw attention to us. Our point as Christians is for other’s to see Christ in us…a “peculiar people” (Some definitions: Strange, Odd, Unusual, Particular, Special, Funny, Different, Individual).
This same chapter addresses Men’s hair.
One thing I DO know, is the Spirit of God isn’t going to tell one person or group of people to be more modest than another group. If you are trying to draw attention to yourself, then you aren’t allowing the Spirit to have it’s rightful place. But, we have not been allowed to let the Spirit lead us in these things in the past, and I think most in the ministry who are rigid in this outward look…are sadly misguided.
I will continue to follow the teachings that have been preserved through these last couple thousands of years by Jesus, his Apostles, and Disciples, because I don’t want to be led astray.
@ henoffour, I appreciate your comments.
A few thoughts regarding 1 Corinthians 11 and hair. I don’t have an absolute answer regarding the length of women’s hair. I continue to seek God’s mind.
It does seem the issue being discussed was propriety in public worship and honoring our “head.” Women’s heads were to be covered (either by hair or a veil); men’s heads were to be uncovered. If we apply the “pray without ceasing” to women, should we not also apply it to men? Would that mean then that men should never wear a hat, and that when they do they’re “dishonoring their head”? It’s highly likely Jesus covered his head at times.
While visiting Malaysia many years ago, 2 sister workers took me to visit a Muslim mosque. At the entrance was a cart with head coverings and a sign requesting short-haired women to please use one of the coverings while touring the mosque. In front of us were 2 women with short hair. They each grabbed a head covering and went in, but us three ladies whose long hair acted as our covering simply walked in. This made Paul’s words in 1 Cor 11 come alive to me: “…but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved [as it was for the Muslims there], then she should cover her head.” NIV
Is culture at play here? One hundred and twenty years ago it was definitely a shame for a woman to have her hair cropped, and apparently the same was true in first-century Corinth. Is it now? Is it in the U.S.? Latin America? Europe? Asia?
A few years ago a sister worker told me about a visit she had while working in another country. The man commented that our group was almost more “Paulian” than Christian. That gave me pause. Then more recently, someone mentioned the need to take in and apply the words of Jesus FIRST, then the teachings of Paul and the other NT writers, not the other way around. That resonates with me. I have tended to focus on the teachings of Paul (and Peter, etc.), then tried to understand Jesus’ teachings in light of their words. This is backward. When I first apply the teachings of Jesus (which are timeless and cultureless), I can then better discern which teachings in the other NT writings are dealing with issues of culture (which change with era and region) and which reinforce Jesus’ timeless truths.
Jesus never mentioned women’s clothing or hair. Does this mean it doesn’t matter? Of course not. But when we’re talking more about women’s hair and clothing than we are about rampant child sexual abuse, pornography use, and immorality, something’s gone awry.
One thing I know for sure: I have spent too many years judging my sisters in Christ (both inside and outside this fellowship) regarding their hair length and clothing—all by just a glance. I am deeply ashamed of this and I purpose to change.
ForThis, I agree with your insight and what you write. It seems we have been covertly taught to judge by the sight of our eyes and hearing of our ears. And if not covertly taught, then overtly sanctioned with a natural inclination of human nature.
I also agree about us (I should say most all religious people) having a hankering to follow Paul. I have come to admit, he saw the light, but he was not That Light.
After all, Paul had one foot in Rome at the end of his life. Any wonder that Roman Emperor Constantine with his crew of priests along with the historian Eusebius decided they needed a book and include the ‘truth’ that Paul had to offer. Not sure why or how for 55 years I glossed over what is recorded of Jesus saying “The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth”. Or maybe my eyes did not see that the words ‘Holy Spirit’, ‘all’, and ‘truth’ were in the same sentence. Or maybe I was slumbering in the meeting where that was spoken on.
If you will permit, I would like to take your train of thought one step further in our being maybe a little backwards in our search for truth; at least for those that have an inclination to search for truth. Do we not go to the bible every day (or twice weekly) to search for something there, and then ask the Holy Spirit to bless what we found there so we can offer something on the alter of truth in meeting? Could the Holy Spirit be a wee bit watered down by the time we make our offering?
For my part, I am amazed at all the faith I had for so many years in the things that had a man’s input and name attached – and how little faith (if any) I really had in the Holy Spirit to deliver the message completely and accurately.
The tenants of the “fellowship” is more about the proper hair length (for both woman and men), the proper dress, attendance to meetings, proper observation of customs such as no t.v. (it used to be radios), and worker worship. The key tenets of Christianity are: the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, salvation through faith, the importance of love and compassion, and the resurrection and eternal life.
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It’s noted, “Jesus never mentioned women’s clothing or hair”. That is correct. Jesus instead talks about what is important; salvation and the key tenets of Christianity over and over. What should we focus on? What Jesus talks about! What is the focus of the fellowship? What can be seen outwardly and can be used for judgment by others. Two completely different focuses.
ForThis– culture and knowledge of the context of the Bible has to be understood, for the meaning of the Bible to be understood. You stated, quoting 1 Corinthians 11:6, “…but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved [as it was for the Muslims there], then she should cover her head.” You then note, ” Is culture at play here? One hundred and twenty years ago (when the “fellowship” was founded by William Irvine) it was definitely a shame for a woman to have her hair cropped, and apparently the same was true in first-century Corinth. Is it now? Is it in the U.S.?
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When 1 Corinthians 11:6 was written, apparently, some Christian women in Corinth were rejecting the cultural norm to have their heads covered. In that society, women with heads uncovered in public were signaling their sexual availability, or association with idol worship. Apparently, some women of the church in Corinth were failing to cover their heads while praying and prophesying in church. Paul says bluntly that this practice brings shame on their husbands, fathers, or the male head of their household.
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The gap between millennia and cultures can make this reasoning unclear. A modern parallel might be a woman attending church services in extremely revealing clothing, or lingerie. Acceptable as those are in the right context, the surrounding culture perceives those as sexually-suggestive choices. While it seems extreme to imagine someone going to church in their underwear, the point Paul makes is exactly that. Sincerity and “freedom” don’t override how others perceive that appearance, which would be an embarrassment to the person’s spouse.
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Context and culture always comes in to play while studying the Bible. What was culturally unacceptable, or acceptable, regarding hair and clothing changes. The clothing and hair style of Jesus day, would be looked at as very different today. The same with when William Irvine began his “great experiment” 120 ago, the dress and hair style was culturally different from Jesus day, and currently. Jesus never made a big deal about hair and clothing, instead focusing on the matters of the heart, faith, love and eternal life. Matters much more important than hair and clothing.
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It’s actually pretty silly that people can base a religion around such temporary and surface issues. Hanging onto the dress and hair style of the William Irvine era is exactly, though, what the “fellowship” has done and making it a sin to NOT have such an outward appearance. The importance of dress and hair has been taken to such an extreme, outward appearance is in the form of Idol worship. It has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with the pride of humans and fitting into a religion founded 120 years ago.
Subject on Hair: and Paul’s response.
We understand this subject is evolved because some were trying to explain why the 2×2 membership gives “Power” to the ministry.
It is impossible and has been impossible to “remain in the as is now “fellowship”, if, and when certain overseer’s put their mind to oust anyone! They covered their tracks with deep lies and smeared the member; while forbidding any one to fellowship or even contact. This was done with threats to excommunicate; also, any who dared.
We do not consider that “giving power”!
We consider that “taking power” result is all the CSA/SA by “Power”!
AND we are ALL shocked by their holding onto THEIR Power as they claim to be LED By the Holy Spirit!
Thank You WINGS for Posting this unraveling of their reality!
And their inability, at this point, to hide their true Nature and inability to really, actually understand the very grave position the abused, victimized, boy or girl; man or woman; they have by their own actions: destroyed. Do any of them have ANY “shame”?
Concerning the subject of Hair and dress; that is contributed to Paul.
1 Cor 7:1. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me……
This 1 Cor. 11: continues from chapter 10:29-:33. give none offense…
11:1 Be ye followers of me AS I also AM of “Christ”. (Not as I follow Christ!). :2 Then he encourages them to keep ‘his’ ordinances’
1 Cor. 11:3 BUT -(a change to subject of hair). remember they asked him questions.
The MAIN concern is 1 Cor. 10:32 give none “offense”!
1 Cor. 11:16. BUT we have NO SUCH CUSTOMS…….
Many of you have ideas that this is a cultural issue. It is! This is in Corinth. A large merchant sea port – with a very diverse national population. Each nationality had their very own “culture, religious guidelines. Paul lists some: :4, :5, :6, :7. ….
However, Paul tells them they all have one thing common :3, and :7 the woman is the glory of man :8 – :12. the woman glories her man with her hair… OOPS, women now object! BUT you can glorify your man, EH?
Paul states: :16. we have no such customs, neither the churches of God.
AND even Paul’s Gospel of Grace given to Him by the “ascended Lord and Saviour(Eph.3:1-:9)” teaches 1 Cor. 10:31 “Do ALL to the “Glory of God”! Hair is NOT the issue!
AND here: CSA/SA should not even so much as ‘be named among you’, yet, it is treated as ‘just’ a problem, no big deal, we are in control. The government of Canada seems to be taking this REALITY of criminal sexual abuse in the name of religion, very seriously. We hope we can be encouraged by their action.
“One thing I know for sure: I have spent too many years judging my sisters in Christ (both inside and outside this fellowship) regarding their hair length and clothing—all by just a glance”. This IS the ” fellowship”; judging sisters regarding their hair length and clothing. Judging! Judging by the outward appearance. So prevalent — very, very widespread. And shallow. And completely meaningless. And hair length and clothing will keep you from being baptized.
I have been abused in this faith in every way possible. First from my own family and then by the workers who turned a blind eye. Now as a mother, I have seen people of place treat my own family with contempt because we stood for what is real truth. I was raised to believe if the hair, clothes, etc. were not as the workers demanded, I was doomed to hell. Now the workers say there are no rules, just modest attire which is totally different from one person to another. So changing our clothes, or hair styles, or wearing of more jewelry and makeup does ABSOLUTELY nothing in changing the conduct of our overseers. Because all they have to do is start lies about those who take a stand and the rest especially the worker worshippers will black list those who make such stands.
The ONLY way to take down these overseers who refuse to help the average “friend” is to stop supplying them with money. The wealthy among us are keeping them in power. No money, no rule. This could also force the good among them to actually take a stand. Also just because they call and ask to stay in our homes, does not mean we have to say Yes. Tell them, change things or find another place to eat and lay their heads down. Take away everything and they will be forced to make changes.