Note of a recent US overseer meeting are posted below. WINGS posts these notes because of our concerns about the ongoing failure to properly address CSA issues. An analysis of the meeting notes by Perplexity, an AI system, summarises these concerns :
- Minimization of Allegations: The discussion around the return of an individual with allegations is concerning. The seriousness of the situation appears downplayed (“not a crime to be weird,” “taking pictures of children and families”), with more emphasis on being able to answer critics than on child safety or transparency. The reliance on an unnamed “man in California” for assessment, rather than formal child protection professionals, raises questions about the adequacy of safeguarding procedures.
- Insularity and Dismissal of Criticism: There is a tendency to characterize critics as unsatisfiable or as lacking faith, and to dismiss external concerns as “echo chamber” talk. While some self-reflection is present, the overall tone suggests defensiveness rather than openness to substantive reform or outside accountability.
- Hierarchy Justification: The defense of hierarchy is largely scriptural and anecdotal, with little discussion of the practical implications for transparency, accountability, or abuse prevention. Historical doctrinal issues (like LWD) are acknowledged but quickly dismissed as no longer relevant, without detailed examination of their legacy or impact.
- Lack of Victim Perspective: The conversation focuses on the accused, the workers, and the church’s reputation, with minimal attention to the experiences or needs of victims or survivors of abuse. Jokes and laughter about serious topics may indicate a lack of sensitivity to these issues.
- Echo Chamber Risk: The group’s own use of the term “echo chamber” (even if jokingly via ChatGPT) highlights the risk of insularity and groupthink, especially when facing significant external criticism.
Conclusion: The meeting notes reveal a leadership group grappling with criticism, doctrinal challenges, and allegations of misconduct. While there is some evidence of self-awareness and scriptural engagement, the overall approach appears more focused on internal cohesion and reputation management than on robust safeguarding or meaningful engagement with dissenting voices and victims. This raises ongoing concerns about transparency, accountability, and the prioritization of member safety.
The overseer meeting notes were formatted and Released by Abbi & Mike Prussack / 2×2 Church Updates. The notes have been confirmed to be legitimate. While much of the discussion is paraphrased, with some verbatim quotes, the note-taker did their best to accurately capture the context of what was spoken.
Overseer Meeting Notes March 25, 2025
The following notes were taken by an attendee of an overseer Zoom call in March of 2025. Speakers are identified by name only when the attendee was positive of who was speaking.
There were a total of 17 people on the call.
Known attendees (last name given only if it was able to be confirmed)
Barry Barkley (Former overseer, senior worker)
Brian Getz (WA/N. ID/AK senior worker)
Dale
Darryl Doland (WA/N. ID/AK overseer)
David
Jay Wicks (Oregon senior worker)
Jon
Merlin Affleck (B.C. overseer)
Mike
Larry
Ray Hoffmann (New York/New England overseer)
Richard DenHerder (China/Asia overseer)
Rob Newman (CA/AZ/HI/Pac. Isl. overseer)
Wayne
Pre-meeting
- General chatter about the friends and where attendees are staying.
- Discussion of health conditions of some of the friends.
- Ray reported he was in NY City but would be leaving for special meetings.
- Confusion regarding one of the attendees. Darryl surmises it could be Richard.
- Someone said “Just as long as it’s not Cynthia.” *laughter*
- Unknown attendee later determined to be Jon.
Meeting
- Discussion with Rob regarding arranging the return of someone with allegations to meeting. (Believed to be referring to Name Redacted)
- Rob was asked if there were children in the meeting. He responded that he wasn’t sure. He checked and confirmed that there is a family in the meeting with children.
- Rob was asked if they had consulted any professionals to see if he was safe. Rob responded that he went through a man in California that they’ve used before. He said his finding was that he was a low concern.
- Response from person asking was that it was good to be able to have an answer for the friends who would ask questions, or the critics.
- Rob said the most serious thing that happened was taking pictures of children and families.
- Someone mentioned that he was just one of those strange personalities.
- Someone else mentioned that it wasn’t a crime to be weird. *laughter*.
- Someone quoted Willie Jamieson as saying “If I’m going to err, I’d rather err on the side of mercy, make sure I’m not part of the problem.”
- Rob was asked if he’s been in any meetings at all. Rob responded that he hasn’t been in any so far.
- Rob mentioned that his elder and elder’s wife have been very supportive through the situation and they know him better than anyone.
- Confirmation was given of his (perpetrator’s) wife being very loyal.
- Someone mentioned that the alleged perpetrator was one of the names put on a list by Bridging the Gap, and they’d listed their overseers on it as well. (Believed to actually be referring to lists by Pamela Walton)
- Someone asked for clarification that they had actually published a list.
- Response: “Well, that Jenn Tschetter did, whatever she’s on.” (Jenn included Pamela’s list in a recent weekly newsletter)
- Richard DenHerder asked if they were serious offenders or not serious offenders.
- Someone responded that it was a little of everything.
- Someone else said that they had gone through a process and were deemed safe to be in meeting again. But that others spin it in a way that makes it sound like they are putting a bunch of dangerous people in meeting.
- Same person said it was all carefully done.
- Richard says that Bridging the Gap had done a bunch of sessions on exposing the Truth.
- Richard explained that he had taken transcripts from all of the sessions and was in the process of using ChatGPT to process the transcripts because he doesn’t have time to listen to all of it.
- He is using ChatGPT to determine all the complaints against the church and about doctrine.
- Richard mentioned that lots of the friends are listening to those sessions and it’s good to know what they are being fed.
- Richard says that so far ChatGPT had said “warning: echo chamber” *laughter*
- Someone says “So a robot is smarter than they are.”
- Richard says he thinks the word is “honest”.
- Rob says the offender is not in meetings yet. The elder and his wife were going to wait until after special meetings to approach him about returning to meetings.
- Darryl asks Richard if there was much mentioned in the Bridging the Gap videos about hierarchy.
- Richard confirms this and offers to send everyone the summary from ChatGPT.
- Darryl talks about recent reading in Revelation about John talking to an elder. He uses this to note that there’s even hierarchy in heaven.
- Darryl says that people are saying that ideally there would be no hierarchy, but even John’s vision of heaven had hierarchy.
- Ray mentions Michael the archangel and how that seems like hierarchy to him.
- Someone chimes in that it just comes down to having order.
- Richard mentions that you see hierarchy in the body. If everything was equal we would just be a blob. And that he’s sure the foot enjoys the hand scratching it when it itches.
- Richard says that one of the complaints they had was about the LWD (Living Witness Doctrine), which he quickly says they (the workers) don’t believe.
- Richard mentions that the LWD (Living Witness Doctrine) did come up in the church at one point in history but was “cleaned away”.
- Someone asks what LWD is.
- Richard responds that it’s the belief that eternal life is only gotten through the workers, and that the truth is an unbroken line back to Jesus.
- Ray recounts a story of someone who contacted him and wanted to attribute the origins of the truth to William Irvine.
- Ray says his response to this person was to ask if he’d be satisfied if he gave him the name of the person who brought the gospel to William Irvine? Or if he’d be satisfied if he gave him the name of the person who brought the gospel to the person who brought the gospel to William Irvine? Etc.
- Ray said he answered for the person, no, you wouldn’t be satisfied until I could give you names that go all the way back to Peter, because you have no faith.
- Someone mentioned that George Walker had said that if LWD was true then he’d have to deny his own testimony.
- Richard said that they (people on Bridging the Gap) say that you don’t need to go to meeting to serve God, or they say they have better fellowship outside of meetings. He then says this is not scriptural.
- Someone says quote of “by one spirit we are all baptized unto one body”
- Someone else quotes Malachi “those that love the Lord spoke often one to another”
- Someone else quotes Psalm 50 “gather my saints together for those who have made a covenant with me through sacrifice.
- Ray says “don’t forsake the assembling of yourselves together”
- Richard says one complaint they (Bridging the Gap) had was that the workers pick and choose Matthew 10.
- Darryl says that they have a list, and that some of the things they say we don’t do, he begs to differ.
- Darryl says that they say the workers only do 18% of the things described in Matthew 10. But that’s not the percentage he came up with.
- Darryl is asked where that came from, he thinks it was on CCF, but may have originally been on Bridging the Gap.
- Richard said that on Bridging the Gap they had said there was no need to go 2×2, but the verse they quoted was where it said to send Paul and Barnabas. *laughter*
- Someone says Henry Moore’s answer to this was “we do greater works”.
- Speaker clarifies that Henry was an old Irish worker.
- Merlin says he’s up in Northern BC and he’ll admit he has a couple coats (referencing the previous discussion about the claim that workers don’t follow Matthew 10 where it says “Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes.” *laughter*
- Someone says that one of the friends, after reading Matthew 10, had said it just sounds to them like “don’t take more than you can carry around.”
- Same person says people are always looking for what they can get, and we (the workers) are always looking for what we can get rid of.
- Someone said that a man had been coming to their meetings and his companion had spoken in a meeting on Matthew 10 and after the meeting the man came up to him and said that he now saw that the workers are the apostles. He had gotten that revelation just sitting in the meeting.
- Darryl said another thing they have a problem with is “go not house to house”.
- Darryl said that when this was brought up, Craig Stockwell mentioned that buddhist monks go house to house looking for money and people don’t like that, and that’s not what Jesus was recommending.
- Darryl then said there are other places where it does talk about apostles going house to house.
- Someone mentions that before that it says “if they receive you, remain in that house…” and they go on to say that if there’s a mission, there’s a need. They also said that they sometimes leave sooner than they should because of their fear of being a burden in the home they are staying. Says this happened more in the past than it does now.
- But they finish by saying that this wouldn’t satisfy the nay-sayers, we don’t need to satisfy them.
- Rob says the dissenters have a great motivation to discount the ministry because if they don’t discount it they fall into that group of people that Jesus said “it would be far better for Sodom and Gamorra, than to reject those that he had sent.”
- Someone else says that nothing will ever make them happy.
- Someone says there’s a large group of the friends who are solid and don’t need any help, and there’s a large group of people who are not “part of us”, but it’s really all about the ones who are right on the edge of those two groups. That maybe they can help one or two of those, not with reasoning, but with clarity given by the workers it can help them come back.
- Same person says there’s not much you can do with the info from Bridging the Gap, but it’s nice to know what is said.
- Someone said that they had a lady in their field who was in this position, and God woke her one night and told her she was drinking poison. So the Lord is well able to rescue those who want to be rescued.
- Someone else says the Devil uses a little bit of truth to bait us to catch us in a lie. He tried it on the Lord, he used scripture.
- Ray mentions the stones between the cornerstone and the headstone. He references something that Barry had said at an earlier time, that sometimes the stones in between just need to be discarded.
- Barry recounts a time that George Walker invited him to his room at a convention in Ohio and he said that if a few shingles blow off a roof, that can be repaired. But if a disease gets into the foundation stones, that will be felt through the whole building. To fix it you may have to set a few good stones aside until you can get down to the one that’s crushed, and build up again. But what it comes down to is that it’s up to the Lord.
- Ray says to think about how we felt when we were called. We had no clue what the future would hold, but were willing for whatever Jesus had planned for the ministry. References spirit that young people have when they first start out, total submission to the rock. Versus the spirit of resisting the rock like the dissenters.
- Someone relayed a story of a couple he had stayed with who told them their testimony. They had been going to another church and the pastor had mentioned that workers were in the area and that people should use their discernment when interacting with the workers. They prayed to have discernment and had invited the sister workers over. They said that as soon as they opened the door, they knew that they were the servants of God.
- Barry relayed a story told by Jack Jackson. Jack had said that he had told the sisters in the early days not knowing the language, that God would use what they were more than what they say.
- Ray spoke about the parable of the treasure hid in a field, and that it does seem that God is hiding that from a lot of people. He mentioned in Jesus day that when the blind were made to see and the deaf to hear, thatJesus always told them not to tell anyone. The people who are worried about a hierarchy and all, they are missing the hidden treasure.
- Ray says they have reduced Jesus down to CSA and are missing the treasure.
- Someone talks about how they were talking about Truth in gospel meeting and how it’s the same everywhere in the world. He had said in his sermon that he had been in Asia, in various countries, and they could have fellowship due to all having received Truth. The call-in number for the gospel meeting hadn’t been muted, and someone listening had said “That was a waste of money (the flights around Asia), they could have taken that and given it to the victims.” *laughter*
- Darryl says “stop the heart and sell the blood” (referencing that the movement of workers among countries is as vital as having a beating heart)
- Someone asks if that’s a Chinese phrase?
- Someone says that circulation is good and is a miracle.
- Someone else says, in reference to hierarchy, that none of them were pressured to go in the work. It was a personal calling.
- Someone else says that none of them asked to be overseers either.
- Someone says that overseers have the privilege of serving servants. “And carrying out a lot of garbage. Save somebody else from the job.” *laughter*
- Someone asks Richard if people in China ask about the West.
- Richard responded with yes. He talked about meeting people and that people talk positively about the West.
- He mentioned that he’s in China on an Irish passport and he often says he’s an Irish citizen to avoid the politics of America.
- Richard talked about a man who owns a coffee stand who likes to talk. The man asked him if he thought there is a deep state controlling the world. Richard said no, that the only one in control is God. The man asked if he believes in God and reads his bible every day and gave a kind of smirk.
- Richard says they are nice people and that they are watching his testimony.
- Richard mentioned tarot cards, that they don’t use that much in China.
- Ray talked about a woman who recently stood up in a meeting, and another lady who they thought would stand but she hadn’t due to a misunderstanding of what testing the meeting meant.
- The lady who recently stood up is 90 years old and is quite tall, and was brought to meeting by one of the friends who is a “midget”.
- Richard mentioned that the Chinese are superstitious, and most of them know it’s quackery. But there are some who have a spirit that they deal with.
- More discussion about fortune telling.
- Discussion about two professing men who had died in a small plane crash. Noted that the plane had been completely compressed, but the man’s bible was found a short way from the wreckage without any damage.
- Meeting adjourned, with discussion of plans to meet again the following week.
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Barry and Rays conversation about stones and discarding them. It’s very interesting how they bring this up Barry was in the room in 1972 when Don Reynolds molested me as a child. Barry you did nothing to save a child. I will always remember you for what you didn’t do or say! The only stone you will have is a millstone!
Thank you, for sharing. It’s so very sad they won’t admit to their terrible behavior, and you are correct about the millstone.
It is grievous to witness men who bear the sacred responsibility of shepherding souls gathering together, not clothed in humility and brokenness, but laughing as though they sit in the courts of earthly kings rather than before the throne of a holy God. Instead of being weighed down by the burden of repentance, clothed in sackcloth and ashes, their hearts are lifted up with pride, drunk not with wine, but with the intoxicating fumes of power and self-importance.
It calls to mind the solemn words of Isaiah 28:
“Even the prophets and the priests stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine; they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. All the tables are covered with vomit, and there is not a spot without filth.”
(Isaiah 28:7-8)
What a wretched scene — supposed watchmen on the walls, not awake and weeping between the porch and the altar, but carousing like fools at a banquet. This is not the soberness of Christ, who wept over Jerusalem and bore our sins in holy fear. This is not the spirit of a broken and contrite heart that trembles at His word. This is mockery. It is a profanation of sacred trust. The laughter that rings from their meeting is not the sound of victory but the sound of judgment gathering at the door. For when those charged with warning the people grow drunk with their own voices and blind to the hour, how great must the fall be!
3 “The pride of those drunken leaders will be trampled underfoot. 4 The fading glory of those proud leaders will disappear like the first figs of the season, picked and eaten as soon as they are ripe”.
Thank you, I was so sickened when I saw this. Appreciate your insight too.
Good grief.
Surely we don’t need anything more to show that these guys aren’t fit for “leadership” roles.
Why is the first order of business to discuss how to get a perpetrator back into meetings? Why does Rob not even know whether children regularly attend his potential meeting (which is just one of several concerns they SHOULD have, and of course there can always be visiting children)? Why have they used some unnamed “man in California” with unstated qualifications to determine safety (which isn’t even really a thing)? Why is the main goal to “have an answer for the friends who would ask questions, or the critics,” rather than to protect children and other vulnerable people? To what is the perpetrator’s wife “very loyal,” and how is this relevant?
Why are they so obsessed with finding supposed Biblical evidence for maintaining “hierarchy”? The examples given about the archangel and the body show little understanding. Here is what Jesus said about hierarchy: “Jesus called [his disciples] together and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave — just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.’” (Matthew 20: 25-26) There’s almost nothing else in the Bible about hierarchy in the New Testament church, but there is a LOT in both the Old and New Testaments about wolves and false prophets.
Ray seems to misunderstand what Jesus is referring to in the parable about the treasure hid in a field (Matthew 13: 44). It’s the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ as our loving Savior, not a particular earth-bound church or group or ministry. We haven’t “reduced Jesus down to CSA,” but we have recognized wolves in sheep’s clothing who are pretending to represent Jesus.
It is appalling to learn that this group of senior brother workers **laughed** at the suggestion that money spent on sending workers around the world, should instead be redirected to support victims and survivors of abuse in this church. In fact, that would be ONE way to show accountability and honesty and repentance (Matthew 3: 7-9, Luke 19: 8-9).
The list of names that they mention is maintained by the amazing Pamela Walton, with updates posted on the “Exposing Abuse: 2x2s” facebook page. The Bridging the Gap group they mention is a wonderful resource publicly available for everyone to access: https://bridgingthegaponcsa.com/
Much of their discussion was to try to get help to contradict what we have found to be true. In their effort to prove the lot of us wrong, they have just proved even more concretely that we are correct! Very sickening behavior.
Agree!
Because many people read WINGS but may not have the time or inclination to seek out other sources, I’d like to also recommend this excellent series from Jonathan McLernon. In clear and concise language, he describes how our church became a haven for sexual abusers, and how we can heal as individuals and as a community. These short essays are publicly available, no account or password required.
A nice interpretation of what another person heard. Why was this “leaked”? Leaking what one individual “heard”, in itself smacks of something illicit.
The word “leak” is probably appropriate based on past practice of overseer meetings. Overseer meetings have long been opaque. Minutes of these meetings are never shared with the Friends, and from my experience, not with regular workers either (other than directives that come out of the meeting). The absence of transparency of those meetings suggests an intent of secrecy, so public dissemination would almost certainly be considered a leak by the participants.
The opaqueness is one of the primary reasons the church is so poorly managed. Transparency leads to accountability which leads to higher quality decision making.
Okay. Makes sense. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.
Because “What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.” Nothing illicit here.
I see, said the blind man. Or so I heard said the deaf mute. I’m not disagreeing. Just seems a bit presumptuous, assuming one knows the true thoughts and intents of fellow humans.
Why are YOU not completely aghast at what these supposed leaders are laughing at, and discussing? These notes came from someone who was in attendance (a worker), not someone who has anything to gain by sharing what took place. One of the first comments “as long as it’s not Cynthia”…what are they afraid of, if they are doing what’s right? She’s a private investigator, who has been nothing but fair, honest, and professional in every interaction with the ministry. THEY have returned with pretty much nothing but lies, deceit, and hatred. For what? Because, the truth means they will eventually lose their chushy lifestyle, and they are mad! They don’t care about you, they don’t care about each other, they don’t care about anyone but themselves. Millstones are waiting for every single one of them.
I am completely aghast at how judgemental you and others are. I agree Cynthia Liles is a good and qualified investigator. But SHE is just a human judge like YOU are. But thanks for doing the Lords work. I’m sure He appreciates your help! 🤗
What saddens me the most is, being raised in “the truth” and told lies by our parents who didn’t even know they were telling lies because they were brainwashed into believing what the workers told them; all of these things have turned God-loving people into sinners and non-believers. The ‘truth’ cult has caused suicides of those who just wanted to feel close to God and Jesus but no thanks to the workers, were made to feel like losers and sinners. And then, there are those like my older sister, who taught her daughters that all they had to do is profess and then they could go to the movies, wear pants, do whatever – until Sunday morning or Wednesday night or gospel meetings or “friends get-togethers” where they presented themselves as perfect. My older sister’s daughters – during their teen years – waited with bated breath – for each of the new ‘Harry Potter’ books and movies to come out. Books and movies that are ALL about witchcraft and MAGIC. They were obsessed!! Oh, but as long as they read their Bibles and prayed for those 15 minutes before bed, they were assured by my sister, that they were SAVED and would go straight to Heaven when death comes. My child, who doesn’t go to church, is non-judgmental, helps all of our older neighbors with whatever they need, does everything for me without me asking, believes in God and can quote a multitude of Bible verses but if you talked to my so-called ‘professing’ sister, she would say my child is headed straight for hell when he dies. I’m so angry. I’m so disillusioned. I only hope – and PRAY – that when I die, I can ask our creator and his son….why, why, why.
Are people really brainwashed? Or do they simply neglect to use the living soul, with accompanying conscience and gray matter God gave humankind? Blaming and anger and disillusionment are human characteristics, IMO. I plan to opt for asking for mercy rather than my human inclination.
With regard to hierarchy, I can’t see why these self-appointed ‘overseers’ are so confused in trying to find justification for having a hierarchy. Jesus was clear and unequivocal in Matt 20V26 and Matt 23v11 in instructing the apostles/disciples that there should not be a hierarchy. Jesus said that they were all equal, so clearly there should not be overseers above workers and male workers should not be above female workers. If Jesus was expressly instructing that there should not be a hierarchy, then how can these men say that they are ‘God-appointed’.
If these men were honest they would be willing to obey Jesus’ instruction and get rid of the position of overseer, and give females workers equal authority and they would go back to doing what Jesus instructed them to do; feed the lambs and sheep and preach the Gospel and the things Jesus commanded.
well put you are 100% right on
I hope this circulates to as many people as possible. The lack of compassion, integrity, and general theological knowledge is unbelievable.
This is a general reply. There is a saying often used in legal writing – “Res ipsa loquitur,” or, “the thing speaks for itself.” The account above certainly does.
I have no reason to believe that this is a fabrication because it conforms to traits we have seen over and over through the years. I also feel the testimony of someone mentioned as a possible source, and those who made the account available, have proved to be true. That out of the way, I want to be fair in my response.
I do not know in what state or province this information was gathered. Depending on the jurisdiction, this could violate privacy laws. But since it is out there in the public sphere now, and in view of the fact that it might have been “leaked” by someone in the meeting, it seems fair game for comment.
No doubt there will now be confidentiality oaths taken before such meetings. It is an embarrassing indictment of the very kind of secrecy and exclusivity that has contributed to the mess we have seen. The attitudes expressed, as well as the private nature of the meeting, violates the letter and spirit II Cor. 4:2. Had secrecy been the rule in Acts 15, we might never have had such a fulsome explanation given of that meeting – consisting of ministers and elders among the fellowship – in Galatians. Indeed, none of us would be even concerned, Gentiles being swallowed up in the strictures and structure of the dead works of The Law.
I determined to analyze the notes myself, but knowing particular words and meanings could be debated ad nauseum, I’ll limit myself to the general spirit of the thing. Again, it is with full knowledge that the way this information was collected might be in violation of privacy rights. But the “genie is out of the bottle.”
If it sounds a bit like locker room talk it is because that is the way a lot of these meetings go. I say that as one who has spoken to senior workers involved in these meetings, though I certainly never was in that rarified atmosphere when I was a “worker.”
To those involved – why can’t you open up a bit and invite elders into your councils? Not doing so only fuels the fires of suspicion, which are justified by your past secrets. Why joke about the Living Witness Doctrine (LWD), as if it were some aberration on the spiritual radar screen before any of us were born, that was corrected and forsaken? I went into the work in 1980. It was very much believed and reinforced among us. In fact, I and others preached it, and I for one was never admonished or advised to desist. So it is disingenuous, even downright bearing false witness, to joke about and deny. Remember that exclusivity, which is the direct result of the LWD, breeds arrogance, arrogance breeds despotism, despotism breeds fear, fear breeds blind obedience, blind obedience breeds spiritual sloth, and sloth produces acceptance of anything, lest one be excluded. Meh, but what of a few shingles blowing off the roof?
It appears that the Great East-West Divide has now been breached, spanned perhaps by an issue we can all agree on – that CSA is bad. Halleluiah. That is quite a revelation. Why then would such a fellowship claiming such pure spirit-led motives and actions, historically hide, obfuscate or dissemble regarding such heinous acts towards children? That isn’t what any fellowship claiming spiritual primacy would do. And why continue secret meetings that only compound suspicion and the problem of exclusivity, mystery and malfeasance that is endemic amongst the fellowship? Why?!? Is it pride? Does not pride go before destruction?
It would have been better to discuss the divorce and remarriage issue, but I realize the meeting would have ended as soon as it began. We can all agree that CSA is bad, and some of you can argue forever why we should not have an organized response emanating from your organized meetings that can apply to our (gulp!) organization. Some of you have no problem telling people that going to Meetings is essential for salvation, yet you deny entrance to those who are divorced and remarried, effectively, according to your theology, excluding and denying them salvation. And shame on any of you who do not agree with that extreme position, yet pretend to have fellowship with such men. Instead, you coalesce around an issue that everyone agrees is bad, figure out ways to rehabilitate and re-assimilate the guilty, but leave the divorced/remarried yoked with a scarlet A, or cloaked in purgatory, at least in your own minds. Enough with the “agree to disagree” philosophy (theology??). This kind of ambiguity is deadly to those unfortunate enough to have suffered the horror of divorce. Afraid it might open the floodgates? Just try walking with someone through that valley, with all its spiritual, psychological and economic cost, even ruin, and tell me everyone will jump on the bandwagon and enjoy such a “blessing.”
So, you can joke all you want about serious issues, and you can ignore other issues severely impacting fellowship that should never be geographically determined, just so you can pretend to be brothers, united in a common struggle against those who would expose truth. Every other verse in II Cor. 4 (“the ministers’ chapter”), hinge on verse 2. And reach for the lowest-hanging fruit, even if is cankered and marred. You may not ever open your councils to lay elders, and you may never adopt common-sense guidelines in the face of world-wide scrutiny by law enforcement and the public, but you could make a clear stand on the divorce and remarriage issue, so that people who actually believe that you have such power to bind on earth that which the Lord looses in Heaven, can lift their head and claim the redemption of Psalm 107:2, which Jesus freely gave penitents, but that you deny.
Regarding the above paragraph, it doesn’t include everyone in that meeting, but if the shoe fits, wear it. The point is, don’t circle your wagons as if preparing for a savage fight. Open up your councils, discuss issues openly that alienate people (especially the Big One that still divides east and west), and do not jest about serious life-or-death matters. I am sorry your confidentiality was breached, but really, there is nothing hidden that shall not revealed. I hope those in that meeting read this. Perhaps if any of you are eavesdropping on this site you will.
A brother to all who are in Christ Jesus,
David R. Serra
Thank you for this Dave. I appreciate you and your stance and couldn’t agree with you more!
Thank you for your support and comments.
As both a CSA survivor and divorced and remarried I’ve never been asked by any overseer how I feel about abusers returning to meetings with full privileges. I have been denied meeting privileges since 2015 in Arizona by Rob Newman and in 2019/2020 in Oregon by none other than the infamous Dean Bruer who said he and Jesus didn’t approve! Go figure that one out!
It is shameful the things these arrogant men have done to people, be thankful you don’t need to attend meetings of a false religion to get into Heaven! God loves you, and no human can take that from you.
100% agree. This is whole meeting was shameful. When I brought up the Hierchy issue back in August 2024 to Richard, Doyle, Darryl, and Rob at the Olympia convention grounds (the question was actually directed at Richard), not a one of them could come up with any verse anywhere to offer to those of us sitting there. Scott Price had recently done a study and collected verses and put them in one of our state news sites, which I had read (all taken out of context), and Scott knows me well enough that when Darryl turned to him and said, “Hey Scott, you just did a study and posted about this very thing, would you care to share those with us?” Scott looked at me, then at the ground, and then back at Darryl shaking his head “no”. So, I said, “So, there isn’t any? Because, all I can find is Jesus explaining to those in His ministry that were fighting over who would be the greatest, and Jesus told them no one….” and Richard retorts “well, we think there is”…lol But, he had nothing, and he never will, because Jesus didn’t want any of them being over another. We don’t only have state/province overseers, we have country and world overseers…we are very similar to the Catholic church in how we are set up. In another conversation I asked about why the Elders had their authority in the church taken from them, and if they wanted things to be righted they needed to start by give that authority back to the Elders. The response was, “the Catholics tried that, and it didn’t go so well”. So, they even look to the Catholic church for answers.
JW. Shame on you You are a failure on all levels.
Let the Light shine bright. Truth is and always will be. Pride blocks repentance. Turn to the LORD, and do the right thing. I believe He has let you know what that is. The right thing often isn’t the easy thing. Thank you Jesus and Glory to God!
Ugh. I’m so tired of hierarchy. It’s in churches, workplaces, families, even schools which explains so many school shootings when bullied children feel left with no life and no choice because of no self-esteem. I’m NOT condoning school shootings; I’m just saying, I understand it. Even during these discussions, I see those who strive to appear smarter and more well-informed than others. I have siblings like this. Siblings who did their worst during teen years and then married for money and then re-professed because God knows, the current professing friends and workers aren’t living up to “The Truth” rules of the 70’s and 80’s. What happened to….the one true way never changes”? It’s pathetic of any human being to think you are above any other human being. Get over yourselves.
I am sorry. I can sense the pain in your response. This person’s terrible comment towards JW (whoever he is) triggered me. I have tried to communicate directly and raise concerns to “overseers” and received no productive response. Even though JW seems to be a worker on the attendee list, he didn’t need a railing that that against him. I feel strongly that God has let these overseers know what they should do. He has done this through many many many people trying to clue them in. I am so thankful to have the worker church in my rear view mirror. God’s peace to you.
Wings thank you for your hard work and your transparency. What is done in the darkness will be brought to the light, seems to come to mind.
My dear dad was a die-hard truther until the day he died in July 2018 at almost 93 years old, after a hard factory-worker life with 6 children and a wife who was sick a lot. He always told me when I complained about my manipulative ‘still a truther’ older sister – ‘don’t worry; the truth always comes out, one way or another.’ Amen, I sure hope it does.