26 August 2023
Dear Sacramento friends and elders,
We have previously written to you about Gilbert Smith’s participation in meetings. Today we feel moved to apologize for all of the pain we have caused through this whole process. We realize now that we erred in even discussing Gilbert’s return to meetings when so many are still reeling from all that we have learned in the past five months. We understand that we put the elders in a difficult position by asking them to review all the information and come to a decision. We see how our actions appeared to care more about a perpetrator than for victims or survivors. Our mistakes are teaching us how much we have to learn about the far-reaching impacts of sexual abuse.
As we mentioned in the previous letter, only volunteers will meet with Gilbert and Sharon for fellowship, and he will not be attending any public meetings. We also want to let you know that we are putting an indefinite pause on any attempts to put perpetrators back into established fellowship or public meetings. We understand that there is still much to learn, and we want to proceed carefully. We recognize the need to increase our knowledge about sexual abuse and pledge to continue learning. Our future efforts in this arena will be centered on supporting victims, dealing with perpetrators transparently and doing our best as a staff to listen and respond from our hearts to the needs and questions of God’s people.
This season is difficult, and we realize we have not always understood the impact of our efforts and the extent to which people are hurting. Thank you for your patience with us, and please hear our heartfelt apologies. We love you and appreciate your help as we all seek to ensure that meetings are safe and peaceful places for fellowship and worship with God.
With deep care,
Rob, Harold and Richard
WINGS Note: See previous reports at
Concerning Decision Despite Opposition
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Friends and workers in California, I just want to ask, why are these men still making decisions for you? Why are they still in positions to state that “we are putting an indefinite pause” on efforts to re-integrate abusers? Why is it even their decision whether and when to take actions on behalf of your meetings?
In August 2023, anyone who is still at their slow stage of “learning” should not be making decisions for others. Perhaps they can “learn” as regular fellowship members, but they should not be making decisions that affect your meetings, worker placements, doctrine, or anything else related to our fellowship. With every decision they’ve made, they show how out of touch they are, how poor their judgment is. In other parts of life, anyone who made this many poor decisions would have been fired or resigned by now.
The longer people like this are allowed to remain in positions of authority, the more decent friends and workers are driven away. Men like this, clinging to power in arrogance, are a danger both to their own souls and to others.
I was born and raised in this fellowship and I am still attending fellowship meetings in my own region. I feel glad to count many workers and friends among my good friends. Regardless of what happens in this group, I’m grateful that my faith in God and Jesus is strong and I hold fast to that.
But these men MUST be removed from their positions of authority among us.
Observer- exactly, well said!
Well said indeed
Observer, you are exactly right. They need to be removed and also need to be removed on the East coast as well. Not only the top three or four but many other overseers, how do we do this?
There are ways but not too many people willing to stop supporting those who are wrong.
Question to Wings,
,….Why were the comments closed on the first letter referring to Gilbert Smith abuse?
Wondering if it’s true about Gilbert wife’s on victim shaming? as reported here, calling them lies etc….
Shouldn’t she be required to make a Full Written Apology to victim’s that she shamed via phonecalls?
Policy is to close comments after 7 days minimum. Comments often stay open longer but no guarantee.
Ya I have the same Question…. Leave WFT comment section open + transparent. What’s going on if this is “for victims” and “For the People”? 🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️ Very Weird.
Our standard WordPress settings are to NOT close comments.
All three posts re GS have ‘Allow comments’ status.
I don’t know why it appears to be closed.
We asked them when they were here in Washington, “what would it take to remove you?” Neither one is interested in stepping down. They said, “when the spirit is withheld”…Hello?! You are making terrific decisions…doesn’t that show them that they shouldn’t be an overseer? Step down already!!!
comments are not open yet on the Three GS posts
Comments were never closed on those Sacramento posts. Make sure you click on the heading of the story first as replies do not show up in the News Index.
Dealing with perpetrators……..
What about dealing with concealers as Richard Harbur is ? also Jim Price and Scott Porter that cover up child sexual abuse in Ecuador?
What about dealing with Richard Harbur a man that abuse his power and authority and he is back in Ecuador as an overseer ?
What about dealing with Richard H. that had a restraining order because he cover up Child Sexual Abuse ?
What about dealing with him because a professing lady was in meeting with her little daughter and because her daughter was crying in meetings he screamed at her :
I told you get out !!
( The cry of the little one bother to Richard )
What about dealing with him because he kicked a dog of the convention ground and the dog landed somewhere on the ground?
( the owner’s dog was speechless and sad)
What about dealing with him because he told a profesing lady : Why you keep feeding your daughter knowing that she is going to die ?
The mother answer to him : because she is my daughter and she is alive .
( the daughter had an accident is in bed and she needs to be feed )
Richard Harbur step down from the work .
Ray Hoffmann and Lealand Broughton
They both know the corruption in Ecuador and they do nothing to help us .
They both have to step down from the work.
Ray Hoffmann never answer my emails about CSA . Rob Newman said that Ray is the one dealing with Ecuador. He isn’t.
Who is ? Who care ?
Ray is in completely silence about CSA the same actitud has Lealand Broughton the overseer of all South America and he knows what happened in Ecuador and do nothing .
What about dealing with the sister workers that support the workers that cover up child sexual abuse ?
We need changes and we need it now .
…doing our best to listen and respond ….
True ? Show us with changes that this is true and show us CERO TOLERANCE of CSA / SA and WA ( workers abuse )
We need changes and we need it NOW .
Who care ? Who listen to ?
Who is going to intercede and make the changes that we need ?
Soy Colombiana, y aún asisto a las reuniones ( son 22 años ahora) porque estoy convenciada fervientemente que La Verdad, El Camino Y la Vida es nuestro Señor Jesucristo. Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con su pensamiento, que personas que han abusado así del poder, han hecho daño a otros pequeños que han llegado a las reuniones, Son como este hermano mayor en la casa del Padre, intentando decidir quien entra y quien no, enojado con su hermano menor por ser un pecador, sin reconocer su propio pecado en el corazón aún más perverso porque se peca contra el Padre.
English translation: I am Colombian, and I still attend the meetings (it is 22 years now) because I am fervently convinced that The Truth, The Way and the Life is our Lord Jesus Christ. I totally agree with your thinking, that people who have abused power like this have hurt other little ones who have come to the meetings. They are like this older brother in the Father’s house, trying to decide who gets in and who doesn’t, angry with his younger brother for being a sinner, without recognizing his own sin in his heart even more perverse because he sins against the Father.
I am so thankful for people who are seeing beyond what is going on around us. This IS the way that Jesus taught (or closest to it here on earth) and leaving isn’t the answer. Doing something about it IS. Can you call your police or military police or whatever governing body handles crimes against children, and tell them about what is going on? Tell your lawenforcement that your overseer and the elders are “With Intent to provide new and current victims they are insisting that these predators be allowed to attend our worship/fellowship meetings”? If there’s no laws in your country against it, how about getting your local government officials involved to create laws?
Richard Harbur how you justified the 5’000 dollar that you gived to a professing couple to buy a piece of land in Ecuador for convention ?
Supposed to have convention in this piece of land and now this professing couple don’t want meeting in their property and they keep the land for themselves.
How do you justified the money giving to you ?
What about many professing people in Ecuador that doesn’t receive the help of the friends in USA that send money for the poor to help them ? But ….yes …. there is money to buy ” property ” and you and Lealand Broughton were together on this .
Letter is a good start and it sounds like I’m not satisfied with the apology but they need to do better than that. They need to personally apologize to everyone who was in the June meeting with friends and workers where the workers didn’t listen at all to the friends. Richard DenHerder was and probably still is strongly against ex- communicating pedophiles. He believes everyone should be attending meetings who wants to be there.
My question is, how do three men OF GOD miss so badly? These three men who claim what they share in gospel meetings comes from God himself….yet none of these three head workers got it right? They collectively all missed the wisdom that the saints all shared with them. Now they are apologizing. Frankly, logically, it’s too late. You aren’t trusted now. We trusted that your wisdom comes from God and now you’re all apologizing because none of you got it right. I applaud the friends and elders in Sacramento who stood up for children, survivors and victims everywhere. Workers stock has gone way down in everyone’s book. Our three head guys in California got it wrong. All three. I could understand if one or two got it wrong….but all three? Yikes. This is why you were asked to step down. Not out of violence and hatred but out of love for the fellowship. It seems like we care more than you do and now pride is just getting in the way of The Father and The Spirit. You’ve gotten so many things wrong and those who are still supporting you are just scared of change and don’t have the stones to stand up. Good start on the apology, but maybe you all could share how you reached your decision to fight so strongly to have perps back in fellowship? Perhaps you can share why you all felt the need to scorn the friends in Sacramento? Maybe apologize to the friends everywhere for blacklisting some folks there? If not, it can start to get real uncomfortable. Don’t believe me? Well, you were all wrong before and frankly it must be embarrassing. Speak up now, before you get taken to court.
Sincerely, not heeding your counsel.
Amen, They ALL got it wrong on the East coast too.
Yup in Canada too. Be Off with You…Deceivers for Satan.
The first paragraph was excellent and is appreciated, but I have a suggested rewrite on the rest of it to clarify what it sounds like to the most jaded of us ‘fessin’ folk: We’re sorry, but we’re going to stick with the decision we’ve already made to have GS in at least some meetings in spite of what at least one of us covered up about him. We’ve already created a special little Sunday morning meeting for him with volunteers. Let it be called “informal” or “non-public” so it sounds new. We don’t plan to do this again with other alleged offenders in our region, at least until this noise settles down. We’re constantly learning about CSA/SA, but never coming to an understanding. We are the deciders. With deep care for what we want and how this looks, in spite of what you’ve asked for.
And why have you volunteeres agreed to meet with a pedophile? Zero Tolerance? The crime dictates that zero tolerance applies here…Meetings only over the phone! No special privileges here!
Reread the tendencys that this person has, you want to lie down with this man?
My questions are not of a hard heart here….
There is no reasons to limit yourselves is there?
Where is your bread going to come from? Where is your fellowship going to come from? A self-righteous man?
that has no integrity?
It boggles my mind?
outside the camp?
separate yourselves unto righteousness?
special treatment?
All the rules should apply here.
And to think that if young adults are found to go to a Bar they can’t speak in meeting for a period of time!???
to a Halloween/ Costume/ party they can’t speak in meeting!?
if they drink they can’t speak in meetings?
if they watch a movie they can’t speak in meeting!?
However, if there’s a crime against a child….if GS could teach a teenager to build a boung ( sp? )
if he could stand over a sleeping child!?
if if if if if …..
you overseers want him to have a special little meeting!!!!!!
Do you Overseers understand my righteous anger?
if a couple is divorced!? they can’t speak in meetings in the West!??? but can in the East??
I’m all about the doctrine HERE!!!
WhERE ARE YOU WORKERS on Doctrine!???
WHERE/WHEN DID YOU Go WRONG!!
Just saying — it is NOT ONLY THE WORKERS THAT ARE MESSED UP IN THEIR THINKING! It is many elders and the volunteers that offered to meet with Gilbert Smith, the sexual predator that should be in jail. WFT post states, “Rob and Richard took a vote of the 11 elders as to who would be willing to have this known and confessed perpetrator in their Sunday meeting.
–
4 elders voted NO.
2 elders could not commit and said that they wanted to asked their meetings.
5 elders voted Yes.
–
It was determined based on this minority vote of 5/11 that this known and confessed (of some of his abuses) perpetrator, is now allowed to attend meeting in the Sacramento area”. A majority number of elder votes was not needed to allow the sexual predator to be given clearance to attend meetings!
–
NOTE: This a KNOWN AND CONFESSED SEXUAL PERPETRATOR!!!! ONLY FOUR OUT OF ELEVEN ( 4 out of 11) voted ” NO” on a confessed sexual predator being in their church meeting! That means 7 out of 11, the vast majority of elders, would NOT STAND up for moral, ethical standards to prevail in their meeting that they presided over! How can a family with children, who are the innocent ones among us, be in the presence of a known and confused sexual predator that has faced absolutely no retribution for the crimes he committed? The moral compass of the elders that did not vote “no” to have a sex criminal in their meeting, have the same moral code of the workers responsible for even thinking of allowing this monster back into fellowship meetings. The moral rot from the top three, down to the head workers, has filtered into the elder ranks. It is obvious, with only four out of eleven elders standing up for principle, or the fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for what is ethical and Godly behavior, the majority of leadership sides with the devil.
I for one am confused when I read all these posts on Gilbert Smith who I neater heard of before. There are many posts about several accusations against him and even that he has openly admitted to them and yet he has not been found guilty and served time? Why not? Have any of you gone to the authorities? Do they know of this case?
Next up is his coming back to meetings. Are there any signs of repentance? Just wondering what is really going on here.
On the Mighty app, an elder’s wife (her husband attended the “Secret Meeting”) said Gilbert admitted to at least some of his CSA allegations to Rob Newman (CA overseer).
My assumption was that the crimes happened in a geographic area where the statute of limitations would preclude the victim from pressing charges; I don’t know if that’s the case with Gilbert, just my assumption.
In another case here in CA, a man has multiple allegations of abuse. At least one of his acts of CSA occurred in the state of CA and fell within the statute of limitations, but the victim hasn’t pressed charges, and their family stood by them so they wouldn’t be re-traumatized.
Getting offenders charged & prosecuted is not easy, which is why only a fraction of abusers end up in jail.
It’s SO sad for what’s happened to every victim. If they truly are a victim, then the parents are complicit in the crime if they don’t report it, even if it’s against the wishes of the child.
But, the victim shouldn’t have to be the one to turn them in. The Predator should be turning themself in to authorities (whether time has expired or not) if they want to make things right.
Repentance:
1) Turn yourself in to authorities and take responsibility
2) Admit to EVERY human you have harmed
3) Admit to what YOU did to them and the words you terrified them with
4) Admit the crime against them was wrong
5) Accept the consequenses
6) Accept Therapy, Spiritual Guidance, and chemical or preferrably surgical castration
The above shows there’s a tiny shred of honesty and hope.
No predator EVER has ONE victim. These predators are only admiting to ones that they KNOW won’t turn them in (because they are SO terrified by “Don’t you say anything to anyone, because I KNOW where you live…”), or there’s a law prohibiting them from being charged for what they did to THAT victim (time ran out, or there’s no proof left behind). This is not a trait that just shows up one day, and then they “get it out of their system” or “I just wanted to see what it was like just this once”…it starts usually with the predator having been the victim, who then goes on to create more victims. Let’s STOP the cycle!!
if he was repented….he would say he knows that he lost his privileges.
and takes his lumps like a good person would knowing that he blew it
and have no expectations
Yeah, exactly.
Richard DenHerder is just plain EVIL. He is consumed by the devil himself! He’s arrogant, and won’t listen to ANYONE. He doesn’t care that the Bible doesn’t provide any substance for having an Overseer, because he likes being in power…He’s one dangerous individual. But, so is Rob, and it’s not just Richard that is influencing him. They were both pleaded with here in Washington to keep the predators OUT (I have several family members who live in California). I would encourage ANYONE who is where these two are, to not allow them onto your property!! If they think it’s okay to offer up new victims to these criminals, then they are even more evil than I imagined! They both informed us that they were the “annointed ones” when they were here in Washington…like anyone who was honestly serving God and praying with faith to believe couldn’t be (nor could any of the other workers). It was sickening!
“Just plain EVIL” is an understatement. Your characterization of the meeting in June in CA with a number of folks, and his pious, arrogant attitude/spirit was on full display. In conversation, he has demonstrated the same “spirit” in that he does not entertain such low-level thoughts.
What I find incredible, is the purported higher, christ-like spiritual standard they espouse is NOT attainable when failing to attain the NON-christ-list standard of the worldly heathens. The results of the last 100+ plus speak to the dismal standard that has been achieved. Secrecy pertaining to immoral/criminal/financial acts and behaviors has fostered the catastrophe of the ministry today.
The “anointed ones” overlooked the actions and behavior John VDB for 30 plus years, claiming his behavior to be on the lower end of the scale.
Okay, so where is the encouragement for the volunteers that have to meet with the pedophile and his victim shaming wife!
I’m assuming that GS will not be able to speak in meeting for at lest rhe first 9 months, the amount of time you workers require a woman with child to wait….and the victim shaming that a young girl has been given, asking her to apologize to her peers for having made a grievous error.
And while I’m speaking , what about the secrecy that surrounds the Work….us sinners are made to confess our sin openly maybe it’s time the Top confess their sin as well …Yes we want to hear all!
Nothing covered anymore!
If they are “volunteers”. They don’t HAVE to meet with Gilbert. I know from those IN their meetings that Sharon knew all about his child preference, and did nothing. Then, she has the insane idea to go after a child, to demand an apology, herself? I highly doubt she would have had the guts to go after an apology from a male adult in their meeting. So, she should be put out too!
Any sane person would voluntarily put every single criminal (predator) out! Unfortunately, leadership around the world don’t fit into the “sane” mindset.
For Christ, thank you for recognizing Evil !
henoffou, Mrs. Sharon Smith! what a piece of work she is……she has alot to swallow
@just saying I agree. I knew her before she married Gilbert…she was trouble in the work…and has left a destructive wake.
This is a three- ring circus. Wow.
Everything happening right now is so reactionary. These three clowns can’t seem to get ahead of anything. They are just bouncing around, reacting to the loudest squeaking wheel. Trying to get things back to the secrecy program….i.e. “ lets have a secret vote amongst our hand picked favorites. Thanks to our information age, it’s getting much more difficult to operate in their secret ways. Maybe they should throw a couple forward thinking Sister Workers (if there are any) in the mix of these 3 stooges. Put one of them at the head of this genius task force. Wow, I never thought I would talk about “Workers” like this, but this is just pathetic.
I’ll believe that they really are making an effort to do what is right when they start making EVERYTHING transparent. Finances included. Secret votes become public. Allow everyone to have a say, not just the hand picked conformers. Making changes because they want more honesty, and transparency in the organization. Not doing it because they are reacting and are forced to do it.
THAT – would be a good start.
EXACTLY, 100% in agreement. I have been away for 30 plus years, and did NOT have a disparaging word or thought, until late March 2023. Since that time, watching the S### show devolve into what it has become, is astounding. Complete reaction and leading from behind. And I never would have thought I would be writing these words and thoughts today.
Way too late and the damage is already done . Sadly.
Who care for our children ?
Who care for the victims?
Who care for CSA,SA,WA/ workers abuse ?
Who care for the suffering that souls went through for exposing pedophiles among us?
Who care for the trauma in our friends ?
Who care if a soul is excommunicated for speaking against CSA ?
Who care if a soul cry day and night ?
Who care if a soul is being blame ?
Who care if a soul isn’t believe?
Who care if a soul is devastated ?
Who care if a soul lost their song ?
Who care if a soul have to be in the presence of a pedophile while in meetings?
Who care if the overseer doesn’t listen and doesn’t want to make changes ?
Who care if a soul as Jeremiah doesn’t want to live anymore ?
Who care for the consequences for speaking up ?
There is one that always will care : it’s Jesus .
Also there are many who care as you reading this post .
As you know there are 3 ladys that exposed pedophiles among us and fight for justice. Thank you so much to all that care and support the victims.
Amen!
Reply to -Justice will prevail.
On AUGUST 18, 2023 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2, Concerning Decision Despite Opposition, it was posted, “Recently a private (secret) meeting was held in the Sacramento area. The Sunday morning elders for the 11 meetings were invited (no wives, no union elders or Wednesday night elders) by Rob Newman and Richard Denherder to discuss a known and personally admitted CSA perpetrators readmission into fellowship meeting”. NOW, Rob, Harold and Richard, the bumbling three stooges, say, “We understand that there is still much to learn, and we want to proceed carefully. We recognize the need to increase our knowledge about sexual abuse and pledge to continue learning… and doing our best as a staff to listen and respond from our hearts… (the) season is difficult, and we realize we have not always understood the impact of our efforts and the extent to which people are hurting”. These three could not find their way out of a wet paper bag, and yet they are leaders of a huge geographical area, impacting many people in a religious organization. They say, “there is much to learn …about sexual abuse… and respond from our hearts “. It is time someone responded from the God given brains, instead of their sympathetic to sexual predators hearts! The common sense of a God fearing person would put out ANYONE that is found in anyway engaged in child sex abuse. That person would be expelled and barred from the group permanently!!! FOREVER. No exceptions. But, with the ” truth” management, and the devil, there is ALWAYS exceptions! “Just one little bite, Adam! This beautiful fruit won’t hurt you…”. These three jokers would be humorous, if the subject matter wasn’t so important and devastating to the victims.
WORKERS, ROB, HAROLD and RICHARD have written at least THREE letters (AUGUST 18, 2023 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2, Concerning Decision Despite Opposition, AUGUST 20, 2023 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2, Sacramento Decision Change and AUGUST 27, 2023 BY WINGSFORTRUTH2 Overseer apology to Sacramento friends and elders) for ONE sex predator — and how to accommodate this sex predator. These same three WORKERS, ROB, HAROLD and RICHARD, invited the ELDERS from ELEVEN MEETINGS to meet with the workers so that these ELEVEN elders could help accommodate this ONE sexual predator. This one sexual predator, Gilbert Smith, has various personnel accounts, from different parts of the world, where he was a worker, of his sex crimes. All this commotion and fuss caused by WORKERS, ROB, HAROLD and RICHARD for the benefit of one sexual predator! And, not one mention of ANY follow up with that victims and what became of their tattered lives and how the victims are coping. No mention by WORKERS, ROB, HAROLD and RICHARD that the victims are being cared for and are getting treatment for the savage behavior they had to endure. These WORKERS, ROB, HAROLD and RICHARD are not only a shame to their religion they run, they are a shame to God and society as a whole. The only thing missing is these three feel no shame. These three are a delight no one, except the devil. The devil continues to win with Rob, Harold and Richard.
100% de acuerdo Para Cristo. En Latinoamerica es igual, los siervos mayores preocupados para tapar este asunto de las violaciones han encubierto a un perpetrador por años, y en ningun momento se mencionan a las victimas. Muchas con sus vidas destrozadas porque no es solo el acto en si de la violación, es la traición general de siervos y siervas que hablan en nombre de Dios, a quienes no les ha importado en nada la vida? por que somos mujeres, porque son niños???? Dicen para no dañar el testimonio de la Verdad y desanimar a otros.??? pero no es tolerar a Jezabel dentro de la iglesia como dice el mensaje en apocalipsis.? Por favor que esto no quede impune. Son muchos años ignorando a las victimas.
100% agree For Christ. In Latin America the same thing happens, the elderly servants concerned with covering up this matter of rape have covered up a perpetrator for years, and at no time are the victims mentioned. Many with their lives destroyed because it is not just the act itself of rape, is it the general betrayal of the servants and servants who speak in the name of God, who have not cared at all for life? because we are women, because they are children???? They say so as not to damage the testimony of the Truth and discourage others.??? but it is not tolerating Jezebel within the church as the message of the apocalypse says.? Please don’t let this go unpunished. They are many years ignoring the victims.
Translation to english
A small flicker of light in this letter but only after people stood up to their non-spirit-led decisions in the first place. But it is still better than things up here in Canada. No crisis here eh! Overseer Mike Wool-Over-The-Eyes-H. is on a listening tour in Alberta meeting with the elite friends that worship and fund him. Getting a feel for how people are doing!!! Why is that necessary Mike when there is no crisis?
Meanwhile in Manitoba and NW Ontario, JR’s allegations haven’t stopped Overseer Jim A from moving forward as usual. Now is not the time for him to handle a crisis as he is preparing sermons for a long convention tour to NZ and Australia. If you are from down under, please start asking questions before he arrives. He is complicit and has done nothing to address CSA, SA etc. Counting instead on the ignorance of the rank and file.
I’m sorry for what’s going on in Canada too! I think the only way these guys (ours in the USA, and all around the world) are going to ‘get it’, is for them to wind up in prison and endure the daily violation that criminals rain down on those who allow or participate in crimes against children.. So, call your local police and tell them that Mike H****et and give the Elders names that are ‘ok’ with them attending, are “With intent, offering the criminals fresh victims and current victims, for the sole purpose of CSA. Because , there’s absolutely no chance that anyone who has participated in CSA is ever going to be present at a meeting without them being there solely for the purpose of finding their next victim. They will start out grooming the congregation, then start working harder on the child’s family, and then the child specifically…until they destroy the child!
The Sheriff told me “IF they are trying to make things right, and there’s any hope for these criminals: 1) they will turn themselves in. 2) they will admit to what they did. 3) they will admit it was criminal. 4) they will accept the punishment. 5) and they will. accept all the help offered (therapy, spiritual support, and chemical castration (or surgical)…which will all take decades, if there’s a shred of hope that they MIGHT, get better.
Fed up in Canada,
We heard that Micheal Hassett brought in MrWayne Hutchinson
who covered for Marion Crawford that SAed Morgan who had to leave the work and her parents lost convention in NB because they demaned total Zero Tolerance………………………………………………………..Yes, Canadian knows all about MH…..rumor has it he that he had Harold Hilton shipped into
1 didsbury to tell the people not to talk…..Am I right did it go down like that Micheal…?
Combining the three letters from the head workers that have been sent out regarding the Sacramento Sexual Assaulting worker/ elder, this is how they read; “Dear Sacramento friends and elders, We have previously written to you about Gilbert Smith ( a known and personally admitted CSA perpetrator regarding readmission into fellowship meeting). We (the head workers) invited the Sunday morning elders for the ELEVEN meetings (no wives, no union elders or Wednesday night elders) by Rob Newman and Richard Denherder to discuss a known and personally admitted CSA perpetrators readmission into fellowship meeting. These eleven elders were told that while this (sexual predator) has admitted to (some) of his abuse, that a FOUR hour phone assessment was done, and he had passed (assessed as NO longer a risk). So the sex predator is now able (according to the CA/AZ policy) to be readmitted to attend meetings (INCLUDING those with children). It was determined (by the elders) based on this minority vote of 5/11 that this known and confessed (of some of his abuses) perpetrator, is now allowed to attend meeting in the Sacramento area. Gilbert Smith (the confused sexual predator) is a former worker and current elder in California. During his time in the work, Gilbert (stalked prey) in California, Arizona, Idaho, Alaska, and Chile. Known (sexual assaults) stem from his time in Alaska and Chile. In the late 90s, Mark Huddle (who was removed from the work in April 2023 due to several (of his own child sexual abuses) was approached with some of (Gilbert Smith’s) allegations. His response was that the (victims) was overreacting, and nothing further was done. …After we considered the attendees in the remaining Sunday meetings, we realized there are no Sunday meetings that could host Gilbert without complications. This has been a new experience, but we do feel the encouragement of our Father’s help as we seek to do what is safe and peaceful. We appreciate your effort and help to work through these processes in a way that promotes peace. Our future efforts in this arena will be centered on supporting victims, dealing with perpetrators transparently and doing our best as a staff to listen and respond from our hearts to the needs and questions of God’s people”. With these head workers having everything now under control, it’s good to know, and very reassuring they can once again lead God’s people. Lead them where though, is the question!
This is at least the 8th letter that Newman has sent out since March (all on Wings – God bless you for this website). Some of the letters talk about all the CSA training that he has had and other letters have CSA directives for others to follow. For Newman to champion this latest boondoggle and then blame it on his lack of CSA knowledge is bush league. Maybe he needs to go back to the minor leagues.
I am very glad God is in in control and not all these arm-chair quarterbacks.
God is definitely in control, and He’s moving people who are responsive to His touch. Some would rather pretend that either nothing is happening, or there’s nothing they are responsible for. How different things in the scripture would have turned out had everyone God was speaking to sat back and did nothing!
Amen
Which “God” are you referring to? Any chance that would be the same “God” that has allowed the CSA/SA/cover-ups which have occurred over the last 50+ years in the ministry? By the “spirit led” ministers?
Please elaborate.
Do we believe or understand the ” righteous anger” that is felt here? Jesus was angry sooooo we know it’s okay to be angry.
I want to think that the overseers decision to “right” the wrong is forthcoming on their part, however it would seem that their just finally feeling the “Push Back” we people have decided to apply.
Make them accountable!
There are readings from a number of people all over the world that give us pitiful people’s a HUGE look at personalities here, and it’s Nothing I would have ever expected from “Our servants”.
We been told for soooooo long what a sinful people we are…….when it appears that a huge number of our servant At the Top are the Sinful Ones. It boggles my mind, and I’m trying to love God and Love Our People…and love our Conventions, ….. to think of the cesspit the Top has created I can hardly comprehend.
Where do we go from here? I love our family, is there a family still? I been reading about the EGOS, I never could have comprehend the Egos….
Yes, it’s rightful righteousness indignation. Which is scriptural. These “overseers” are not doing the scripturally right thing, which God would have shown them had they been sensitive to His dealings. I’m guessing they are feeling very guilty because of their own disgusting behavior, and thinking if they “erred on the side of mercy” (which is a very dishonest way of thinking) that they would be less guilty before God. Doesn’t work that way…but, perhaps these two aren’t familiar enough with the scriptures?
Using the old football anology, there are still many group members that continue to carry the water.
Max, if the shoe fits wear it. You are quite outspoken NOW about those who have gone astray. Tell us when and how you discovered their going astray. For that matter let us know when and how Jesus was transparent and showed his disciples that Judas had gone astray? Glad Jesus was true to His Word. I came not to condemn but to save. Glad that he still is the Savior that comes into our lives to save us.
I remember so well the story of a wonderful lady who had one glaring fault. Whenever she was met with others and someone had a word condemning someone she would speak up and say something good about that person. One fellow got so frustrated with her that he told her “I think you would find something good to say about the Devil”. She quickly replied ” well he was a busy little fellow wasn’t he?”
A Men – I have no idea what you are even talking about, but I do know that your group condemns all that are not “professing”, especially God fearing Christians and their Pastors.
Completely agree. Their motive? More to it than CSA/SA. They want the complete destruction of the fellowship and they’re weaponizing the CSA/SA issue to do it.
De hecho, ¿cuándo y cómo Jesús fue transparente y mostró a sus discípulos que Judas se había extraviado? Me alegro de que Jesús fuera fiel a su Palabra. No vine a condenar sino a salvar. Me alegro de que él todavía sea el Salvador que viene a nuestras vidas para salvarnos.” Es verdad que Jesús no trató de manera diferente a Judas por eso cuando el dijo “Uno de vosotros me va a entregar todos dijeron “Seré YO, Maestro?, aún Judas dijo lo mismo. Pero mi pregunta es? se puede salvar a uno que no se arrepiente?. NO. Arrepentirse es como Zaqueo cuando escuchó a Jesús, entendió que era pecador, y dijo: He aqui, Señor, la mitad de mis bienes doy a lso pobres; y si en algo he defraudado a alguno, se lo devuelvo cuadruplicado”. Solo dicen “perdon”, y todo sigue igual ??? Eso es incomprensible para mi. Nuestro Señor Jesus no hizo ni hace nada encubierto. La mujer con flujo de sangre por 12 años, se escabulló por en medio de la multitud que apretaba a Jesús, “si tan solo tocara la punta del manto”, era su suplica, Jesús la expuso, la mujer temblando se acercó y contó toda la Verdad que le habia acontecido, habían muchos testigos. Jesús le dijo “Tu fé te ha hecho salva; ve en paz, y queda sana de tu azote”. Una confesión y una suplica por perdón además que reparen a las victimas es todo lo que necesitamos para devolvernos la confianza en la confraternidad. El que tiene un verdadero arrepentimiento tendrá este sentir verdadero en el corazón de pasar la verguenza que todos se enteren de su pecado, rogando ser perdonados.
Yes, isn’t it strange that CSA/SA is defined by the experts as an incurable condition. I suppose the closest we have to it in the scriptures is leprosy? They were excluded, feared, and had to call out unclean, unclean. We do have several examples that Jesus completely healed them, touched them and they then followed Him I wonder do we now believe that we have found a sin that Jesus has no power over? Do we just believe that God can take care of my sin but not the other fellows sin? How did we get to this watered down belief? I still believe in a wonderful God who can make any repentant sinner a child of His. I’m glad He is the final judge.
it would appear that any “outsiders” as you say are trying to take the Way down……The workers are doing a Great job themselves and it appears theydon’t need any help from “OUTSIDERS
TFE, if your house ever catches fire, just remember, “God is in control”. Don’t bother calling the fire dept. In fact….quit going to the doctor and just remember that “God is in control”…..therefore you need to do nothing. Just have faith.
Well… at least a sincere apology is welcome!
However to avoid yet more errors in any of their forthcoming actions, why don’t the ‘three’
i) Thoroughly read the excellent treatise … Urgent Professional Request to the overseer and workers in the States of CA AZ NV HI.
ii) Acknowledge its existence, understand throroughly, co-operate with the writers of this excellent work including any questions and further points they may have.
iii) Implement the document in all their decisions regarding SA/CSA , and spread the word around the globe as best practice.
(Moderators no silly pseudonyms (eg P…… &Disgusted) should be allowed on this site)
King James Version uses the word “pisseth” at least 6 times in the Old Testament. Not sure why you’re objecting to a Biblical word.
Rob & Richard have been plead with by many many people. (Professionals who have been educated, people begging to help that work with this type of stuff daily) been given and told statistics, and given much CSA/SA information, which they in their arrogance have chosen to ignore, and told these people “they don’t need the help”…If they claim “they didn’t feel moved” it’s because God has stopped talking to the WALL that is these men’s hearts. Satan loves what’s happening, because chaos makes people frustrated and they give up and walk away. Satan doesn’t care about anyone, he just doesn’t want God to have a family. These two seem to be his workers. Yes, I’m speaking of firsthand knowledge.
Amen, I loved your response….I want that again in our fellowship….there’s alot of changes that need to apply.
Lets start at the TOP and then it can drip down on all of US.
Amen, I disagree here….
okay your talking about sin…..
.leprosy: Flesh eating disease. A sin, yes that could be forgiven. Last time I looked into leprosy it didn’t harm children, CSA happens when someone abuses them…leprosy hurts a child if they come into contact with a leper ……., do I have a draw you a picture
Child Sexual is harming a defenseless child
a crime against humanity, totally different sin, may God judge them, I just don’t want to brake bread with pedophiles. Sin has consequences and this sin takes the sinners out of the camp, out of harms way
Just Saying , I don’t believe any of us want to break bread with a known pedophile. But it’s a harder question concerning a godly repentant pedophile. What will be our reaction when we meet a godly repentant pedophile in heaven completely forgiven by God. I hope it’s not – God you sure made a big mistake.
Sadly, too many think “they can easily be rehabilitated…if they just repent”. What is repentance? It means a complete turning away (removing ones self) from that which is causing us to sin. If someone is desperately trying to get back to coming to meetings, but is seeking no therapy, or castration option, and all they are doing is seeking spiritual guidance, they don’t truly want help and are just pulling the wool over the eyes of the one doing the guiding. There are ZERO cases of anyone in the world, who’s made actual contact with those they were abusing, every getting rehabilitated. They are just wanting to come back to a group of people who make it easy for them to find their next victim.
It’s true this is a forgivable sin, IF there’s true repentance. Remove yourself from the fellowship and start a relationship with God, and I believe wholeheartedly that God will forgive and keep them. But, go back to your feeding ground of victims and prey on the innocent…the wrath of God will be incomprehensible.
People dusting their hands off and claiming “I just trust in God that he’ll do what’s right…”
“Leave it all in Jesus hands…”
What this is saying is “I’m really lazy and I don’t want to be confrontational. What will be, will be”.
Lazy. Lazy. Lazy. Don’t be a piss ant.
These workers will really find out who doesn’t support them when they call my number and I tell them they aren’t welcome to bring their ass backwards anointed wisdom and gospel to my area.
Reminder: these workers won’t listen to the saints. They’ve said and I quote “we are anointed”, in regards to their status amongst the workers. Are those the humble words we want from our leaders? It’s so embarrassing to say you trust in them when they’ve blatantly got everything wrong. That’s not even an exaggeration. Literally everything. And some want to continue to leave it in Jesus hands? I don’t even know what that means anymore. I know it means you want to do nothing and see what shakes out, but wtf. Mothers and Fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers seriously want to “trust in God” with their children’s well being. You sound so dumb and unintelligent saying that. DID THAT STRATEGY WORK IN THE LAST 5 MONTHS?!?
Hope is a horrible strategy. Take actions into your own hands. Or trust these fools who go on hikes and send emails all week. Gods work? Please. I’m sure God didn’t plan on you sitting on your butt on your computer all day. Go wash my dishes after I cook your dinner. Say “thank you” once in a while. You ministers have better health insurance than I do. You drive a more reliable car than I do. You have a better phone than I do. You eat better food than I do. You have more access to TV than I do. Acting all humble when it’s your time on stage like God is using you as his personal bugle. Who are you? Are these words harsh to you? Softest people on the planet. Surprised your bones don’t break when I shake your hand. So disappointed in so many workers. Coming away from these “listening tours” saying “everyone is so mean”. Grow up. It’s your responsibility. What would you say about these meetings if people weren’t “mean”. Answer their questions. Be humble and take it on the chin like a man. Two faced lying overseers. See you down the road.
Ps. You don’t have my vote.
Well said and it’s exactly how I Feel Too….Enough is enough. This Cult was Built by man and man alone. Very evident. It has to All be destroyed…. No repairs. Gods done with these losers. Thank Goodness. It’s OVER. Crash the System …. Thank you God.🙏🏽💖🥳
Amen, we won’t know anything about their sin if we’re all in heaven together. Remember about the Rich man he knew Lazarus didn’t know about the rich man.
God will help repented sinners, and a repented pedophile will know they can’t be AROUND CHILDREN!
Stats tell us only 2% of Pedophiles really want to change and get help…….there is a documentary on YouTube that is non practicing ped he agrees that he doesn’t DARE be anywhere NEAR CHILDREN.
Look for it someday.
And thy tell us, you give the statistic of only 2% can be truly made right. Yes I’ve seen those statistics. I won’t argue with them, but I do question how in the world the experts came up with those figures given that CSA is probably the most unreported crime on the earth. The majority of victims do not report for thousands of very valid reasons.
But 2% of sinners in general repenting may just be a huge number. Jesus did say few there be that find it, speaking of repentant sinners. I am always struck by the several lists in the Bible that speak of sins of the flesh. Most of them start with murderers and end with liars. None of them will be in heaven without true repentance. I doubt that the recovery of liars is much above 2%?
What people need to understand is, the 2% reformed, that is from the national group of those who have been seen by a Forensic Psychologist and were deemed a non-contact (ie: taking pictures up someone’s skirt) offender. IF there’s been contact, there’s NO CHANCE of them EVER being rehabed…it’s 0% of reforming. If these people that are offenders were to turn themselves in, we would learn what type of offender they are. Not all who assault a child are “pedophiles” For example: Child Molesters=people who assault children UNDER the age of 13, Incest Offenders = people who assault those who they have authority over generally starts prepubescent and can continue into adulthood. Rapists=forced sexual assault and there’s actually THREE groups within this group: anger rapists, power rapists, and sadistic rapists. Exhibitionism=is the most common form of sexual offending behavior. The exhibitionist is typically a male, and the victim is usually a female, and will rarely seek physical contact with their victims. Generally, they become aroused by the reaction of the victim. Voyeurism=is the act of becoming sexually aroused by observing unsuspecting individuals who are naked, in the process of disrobing, or engaging in sexual activity. Frotteurism=involves touching and rubbing against a nonconsenting person to achieve sexual gratification.
There’s more to all this, this is just a small window of information.
However, there are statutes of limitations. So, for those who are past that limitation, YOU should remove yourself from ANY contact with children or whatever type of humans fit your criteria! Go find a councelor, and admit to your criminal behavior, admit it was wrong, and accept all the necessary help!
Amen, you asked Max, about those who have gone astray, “Tell us when and how you discovered their going astray?” Why get so into Max and not the problem at hand? Why not go after those workers that have gone ” astray “, and are still workers, than someone giving their insight on this forum? I’m not Max but it’s easy to see those that are ” gone astray”. These people side with the predators and not the victims. They side with evil and not the innocent. As for, “let us know when and how Jesus was transparent and showed his disciples that Judas had gone astray?” Jesus always knew Judas would betray Him, “Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. (John 6:64). Jesus let the other disciples know who would betray Him when He specifically stated that Judas Iscariot would be the disciple who would betray Him. At the Last Supper, Jesus told His disciples that one of them would betray Him that very night. When Judas asked Jesus if he would be the offending party, Jesus said that he would indeed be the betrayer. Matthew records the highlights of the conversation. “Then Judas, His betrayer, replied, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” “You have said it,” He told him. ” (Matthew 26:25). Jesus did condemn Judas when Jesus gave a fitting epitaph to Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” (Mark 14:21). You state, “I came not to condemn but to save”. That’s not Biblically correct. The actually quote in John 3:17 states, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” Jesus is God, which means He is the only One who can truly condemn a person. That was a good story about the “wonderful lady”, but that too, is not Biblical.
For Christ, you have brought out several scriptures at the last supper to “show” that Jesus told his disciples about Judas. Are you surprised that Jesus hadn’t been more transparent with them much earlier? That’s the overriding theme I read into the anti-worker posts? Also if as you say Jesus did tell them why did the disciples wonder what mission Jesus gave him when he left them that night?
it took 30 years before the victims in My household could even mouth the words that they were abuse! they couldn’t even tell me what was done to them, I had to guess and they nodded yes or no…..we’re talking about victims in the 30s being reduces to helpless child …
put that in a pipe and smoke that one……than we can talk
So I don’t care what stats say, what people in and out of truth say we’re living the pain in my household and it’s not pretty
thank you to those people out there believe us and consider living with abuse 24/7 …365
For Christ, you are right it was Jesus mission from God not to condemn so I think you would agree it’s as good as if He said it himself. We need to also remember that He said to the adulterous woman, neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.
Jesus also said to beware of false prophet’s which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. We have children to protect.
Brian Marx, you bring up a good point, we have children to protect. We have raised four wonderful children and have always felt they turned out so well because of the wonderful friends and workers that helped so much in their early years. We have been blessed with sweet fellowship, love and care for almost 60 years since graciously being brought into contact with the God of heaven and the Son he sent to relive his life within us. I still fondly remember the first convention we attended in Chugwater. It seemed that every worker touched on that verse, “Christ in you the hope of glory”. I was astounded because I had just finally read through the New Testament and I didn’t see that. When we got back home, I began to read again, and it seemed like that truth was everywhere. How I wish that everyone on this site could know the love we have experienced.
Concerning the wonderful friends we have been blessed with, we have also seen that the seed falls into all the different soils that Jesus told us about. I guess fortunately for us they have taken themselves out of fellowship when it became evident that the cares of life or the other evidence of no fruit brought to perfection occurred.
Concerning the workers in our area, I have nothing but love for them. Whether they have spent a year or their life in the work, they have all given a lot more than I have.
We can all appreciate thankfulness. You were attentive parents, or you could have been singing a different song. I too grew up in similar circumstances as you describe. But, I’ve since learned that many of those worker’s that had been a rock to us…were actually grooming us, and the whole time they were in our home, they were watching for just a moment of a window of opportunity….
Does that mean we lump them all together and toss them all out? No. I love our ministry and those who have given their lives. But, we have been warned that their will be wolves in sheep’s clothing. So, stay attentive!
Amen, good point — “Do we just believe that God can take care of my sin but not the other fellows sin? How did we get to this watered down belief?” God can deal with most sin. The three unforgivable sins are the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-30), the unwillingness of people who know God to repent (Hebrews 6:1-6), and taking the mark of the antichrist (Revelation 13:16-17). All three sins are birthed out of a deceived, hardened, and self-righteous heart. That being said, who you allow into your life and your family and your home to have fellowship with is up to you, based on your past life experiences, common sense and caution. For example, most people wouldn’t care to be around a Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, or Ted Bundy types. If someone thinks they have “changed their ways”, most likely you just invited a snake into your life. If someone choose a shameful lifestyle then it’s between them and God to fix it, and God can. Ephesians 5:11 says, however, “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them”. If someone is a child sexual predator and admitted to it, have they gone to the authorities and turned themselves in and then served their jail time? Have they asked the victims for forgiveness? Have they admitted to all their crimes? Have they then lived a crime free life following all of the above? Trust is earned, respect is given, and loyalty is demonstrated. Betrayal of any one of those is to lose all three.
Jesus blood was for ALL people. However, they DO need to repent, IF they want His blood to cover their sin! These predators are NOT taking the steps necessary to repent and show they are truly sorry nor do they want help! If they DO: they will turn themselves in to law-enforcement, admit to every child they have harmed, admit that the harm they caused was wrong, accept the consequenses (just like those who end up pregnant because of fornication, or those choosing adultery, etc.), AND be willing for chemical or surgical castration…and time has proven, that this conversion back to normal, will take DECADES.
We don’t domesticate wolves, and then use them to guard a flock of sheep – that would be considered insanity. We do what we can to keep them seperated, so no harm is done to the sheep!
For Christ,
This is one of your finest and helpful responses.
Thank you, Those of us that stand against CSA AND SA doesn’t mean we don’t have grace, kindness, forgiveness etc……we stand for victim’s that couldn’t stand for themselves, we stand because we’re can and have integrity, because crimes against humanity are simply crimes and criminals need to paid their dues, and sin has consequences. Stop the criminals and the crimes! If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime.
As Michael Hassett said …..
All is well , everything is ok. !
Judy and Chuck, you both should have listened to your lawyer!
Are you an ex worker ? Did you worked in south America with AL that he sexual abuse children ?
No Judy, but I did hear that you as an ex worker used to go through the girls closets in their homes and tell them which cloths you thought were inappropriate for them to wear. They really didn’t appreciate your snooping in their closets and dictating what they should wear.
Amen, “if as you say Jesus did tell them why did the disciples wonder what mission Jesus gave him when he left them that night?” I am not saying Jesus told the disciples about Judas betraying Jesus, the Bible says that in Matthew 26:25, “Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body”. The study of the apostles is fascinating! To answer the question, it is first necessary to understand the political condition that was prevailing in Israel in the days of Jesus. The Israelites were under Roman rule and captivity for hundreds of years even before Jesus was born. The Romans charged the Israelites with large taxes. Further, they disrespected the Israelites, and subjected them to harsh treatment. It is just like, some country conquers your country, and takes your money in the form of tax, and mistreat you, all just because they have a powerful military. Though the Romans did not interfere much in the religious matters of the Israelites, the Israelites hated them due to their atrocities. At this point of time, Jesus, a born Israelite, started His ministry, and did great miracles like bringing the physically dead back to life, healing the sick, etc. On seeing these miracles, a section of the Israelites started looking at Him as the Messiah they were waiting for. Yes, the wild guess of the people that Jesus is the prophesized Messiah is correct. However, they failed to interpret the prophesies accurately, as they expected the Messiah to overthrow the Roman government, and establish His own government. They failed to understand that the Messiah did not come to set things right politically, or to free Israel from the Roman captivity, but as a sacrifice for the sins of the entire humanity (which included the Romans too). Until Jesus was caught and taken to the cross, most (if not all) of the 12 disciples were also expecting Him to overthrow the Roman government. Further, each of them could also have expected to get powerful positions in His rule, after overthrowing the Romans. Little did the disciples know the Messiah came to conquer not by force, but by love! It was only when Jesus met them (after rising up from the dead) and stayed with them for 40 days, the disciples got it right about His mission. That is why the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was so important, and even more importantly, His resurrection! the Bible says, “If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins” (1 Corinthians 15:17). The point is not that the resurrection is the price paid for our sins. The point is that the resurrection proves that the death of Jesus is an all-sufficient price. It was not until then the disciples realized what mission Jesus gave them when He left them that night before His Crucifixion.
For Christ, Enjoyed what you wrote about the disciples coming to know the true mission that Jesus had for them. This would be when He sent them into all the world not just a ministry for the Jews as when He first sent them out.
Actually my original question to you was concerning that the disciples didn’t really know why Judas left or what Jesus had asked him to do as we see in John 13 below
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
This just points out to me that Jesus was not transparent with His disciples. I find no fault in this lack of transparency. Do you?
Jesus had no hidden agenda and He was totally transparent with His disciples. There were many times the disciples did not understand what Jesus was trying to convey to them, or the significance of it. In Luke 18:34 there is good example of this, “The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about”. The disciples really didn’t get it much of the time. Jesus was always up front and truthful, however. Jesus was transparent. Jesus showed us how we need to be. There was nothing wrong with Jesus!!!
So now you are saying that Fesus told them all about Judas’s faults, but they just didn’t understand? Nice play on words.
Sorry Amen ….more lies on the way just because I exposed child sexual abuse .
What ever people say I leave it in God’s hand. .
After reading all this blather, I will say it again, that I am more thankful than ever that God is in control and always will be. (And as for your information P.and.D. I am referring to the one and only God of Heaven and Earth.) I believe the CSA/SA situations and how they were handled was terrible and mistakes were made, but God has ‘for the time being allowed these overseers the opportunity to make changes and issue an apology, and I accept their apology and I will give them some time. And I don’t accept the view that the workers are just pure evil and it is God’s will that they must be kicked out of the ministry. For saying that, I was attacked and called a lazy “piss ant” and stupid by these angry little keyboard warriors and haters of the fellowship who spend all their time attacking anyone who does not attack and condemn the workers and overseers and join in their demands that they step down or else. By the judgement of these dozen or so self-righteous devil’s advocates on this site, apparently Jesus should have stepped down because he was the one who picked Judas, and Jesus did not kick him out of the ministry. Anyway I trust in God’s control and I believe waiting on the Lord in prayer is definitely not laziness and it has infinitely more power than anything else to further God’s will.
Amen!
So your okay with Child sexual Abuse?
Let’s put it on the line here….
They started it by doing it, covering up for those who did it….
Just to clarify your okay with that? you need to read the stories of the victims, then rethink your response,
you need to see the suffering that I’ve seen
you need to walk in our shoe
you need to see the horror of a flash back
but your fine right?
God is in control? Please. I have to know what this means. What exactly does this include or exclude? When Dean was luring poor children to his hotel or molesting children, sister workers and hiring strippers on Sunday nights after gospel meeting. Was he in control of that? If we’re going by the Bible’s perspective about God being in control….the very first account of human interaction of Adam and Eve, God said, “don’t go to that tree and eat that fruit.” Eve went right to the tree and ate the fruit. Right away God wasn’t in control of her. He gave her a righteous spanking but what does “control” mean?
If God is in control he was on the side of the three (unprofessing) women who met with Doyle in Oregon and pushed to take the Dean Bruer case to the proper authorities. The workers have been sitting on this case for about a year? They weren’t going to say anything. That was just the tip of the iceberg. How many workers have stepped down now and/or asked to leave because of child molestation or pedophile tendencies? Those cases have been covered up for years and decades. It wasn’t the workers idea to share those. Their hand was forced. Again by three (unprofessing) women.
The Judas analogy is a terrible analogy. He was one man. There have been 30 and counting workers. The story of what he did was awful. He sold out. He also repented and killed himself in anguish. These workers aren’t repenting. They are doubling down. They propose “zero tolerance against pedophiles!” Two weeks later they apparently have gathered a little tolerance because they immediately are trying to get a pedophile directly back into fellowship despite the pleading hearts of the saints who have children and grandchildren with them. Their skewed vision costed many families and individuals to “lose out” as these folks decided the workers don’t in fact have an ear up to Gods mouth. So again, I would like to know what HE (God) is in control of?
Overall, I’m sorry you have to sell your soul to this fellowship to make your life make sense. You have to play the trump card of “God is in control”. If he was in control of this and it panned out the way it has…I’m not sure that’s the God you want to spend eternity with.
totalmente de acuerdo. Porque ninguno ha pagado carcel por el abuso?
I truly belive that God IS in control, yet He gives us all a free will. GOD has brought these things to the light now. There will always be evil things in the world around us. Now He’s said, “That’s Enough!” to all of the peds, perps and enablers in this fellowsip! They are an absolute shame in the fellowship. CSA/SA is the NUMBER ONE thing that MUST be dealt with. Then, there is the money situation, man’s rules, hierarchy and secrecy. Truth welcomes scrutiny, …doesn’t call for ‘secret’ mtgs, is completely open and transparent to all. Now we just need to DO OUR PART and then wait and see what God will do. (#234, v.4, “I do the little I CAN do and leave the rest to Thee”) Meanwhile, we continue our precious relationship with our Loving Father in our heart and with ALL who love Him, in truth, ‘inside’ or ‘outdside’…and ANY who love Jesus are on the ‘inside’.
I agree with some of what you said, but when people who choose to be in authority (when the scripture does not support their position of authority – never does the Jesus say anything about any apostle or disciple being above another…quite the opposite!) choose to also NOT listen to MONTHS of pleadings by PRAYING people, professionals, law enforcement recommendations, and look the other way when statistics are layed before them or spoken to them…that’s just showing they don’t think anyone else’s prayers are worth anything, they are not willing to “learn”, that they aren’t being “led by God”, and when face-to-face meetings take place, they deny the word of God…that’s EVIL. Richard has coddled abusers, and without warning to the recievers – sent abusers to other places because he was tired of dealing with them…all while his praying STAFF members were pleading/and begging him to do something…that’s EVIL. Rob, also doesn’t care what is being put before him, and he’d rather coddle the abusive violaters than help the victims…all while ignoring the pleas of the people who deal with this evil on a daily basis. No, Jesus didn’t throw Judas out, but Judas didn’t have a pretty end either and at the end he was exposed, just like what’s happening now with these two.
The way is perfect, and right…you are getting frustrated with even those who are rising up in Righteous Indignation against evil…which is also scriptural.
I’m also praying for the Kingdom, and yet I understand why these people are SO angry! Sexually abusing a child (or abuse of any kind) is not “just a sin” against a child, it’s also an abomination to God. Find Clint Bechdolt’s sermon on here and read it. It will do you good! Most of the staff around our country is NOT comfortable with what’s taking place in our country, and are not free to DO anything to change it. Many are leaving the work because of the arrogance and abuse handed out by “those in authority”…what about showing LOVE one TO another? Bringing the Spirit of God with them when they come to homes or anywhere else?
Yes, predators CAN be forgiven…IF they repent. Which would mean: They would turn themselves in to law enforcement, admit to their actions, admit it was wrong, and accept the consequenses and all help available. But, they MUST understand, it’s going to take DECADES of Spiritual Guidance, Therapy by professionals who understand their thinking (they are very slick and can fool the masses), and be willing for Chemical castration/surgical castration. This shows there’s a glimmer of hope that they may have one shred of honesty within them. Which is what Richard and Rob SHOULD be encouraging, while these criminals stay away from God’s people. If these criminals truly WANT help, and want to be right with God, He will help them no matter where they are.
TFE, you mean “the one and only God of Heaven and Earth” which permitted John Vandenberg to behave in this manner?
https://johnvandenberg-theworker.org/
The inappropriate touching of a young girl which raised the ire of another who called him out? Please elaborate on the benefits and drawbacks of “God” permitting this behavior to occur by JVDB. Please elaborate on the benefits and drawbacks of “God” permitting the ministry to abide his behavior for 30+ years.
How does one determine which “God” is the correct “God” to follow? I am REALLY curious to learn how one discerns such.
And yes, this is PissedAndDisgusted, again!
Amen
Pure evil ….when some workers and some elders rape children.
Pure evil ….when some overseers move around the pedophiles.
Pure evil …when some workers support the abuser and raper rather than the victims.
Pure evil …when some workers blame the victims .
Pure evil … because for years and years we couldn’t speak up because the FEAR OF THE consequences.
Pure evil… when some workers hide and cover up child sexual abuse .
Pure evil …when workers said to a victim :
You are crazy .
Pure evil …when overseer don’t listen about CSA /SA and don’t care at all .
We need changes and we need it now .
Judas didn’t rape children .
Rape children is a crime .
Are you aware of that ?
Justice will prevail- even though it’s hard to read it, it’s true, it’s pure evil! I whish I had a magical wand to make it all better, if it’s hard for us to read it, how much harder for those who have been hurt by these despicable act’s and the struggle for many year’s afterwards to heal……God knows.
This fellowship have and still are destroying themselves, don’t blame the messenger.
That which is not from God will eventually crumble, as we can clearly see happening in this fellowship.
They call you a “piss ant”…..you call them “self righteous devils advocates” and “keyboard warriors”. Lots of name calling going on for sure. I will have to tell you though, if I had a child that was molested by one of these trusted servants, and I read your post that want to protect these predators and the ones that knew about it and simply moved them to a different area to do it again and again, I would probably be calling you something worse than a “piss ant”. If you HAD a child molested by one of these evil men, and you post what you do….there is no name for you.
TFE…..LIGHT BULB…….They are not going to kick themselves out. They are just relying on the hope that there will be more like you and go on – business as usual.
Barnum & Bailey- well said!
You are doing a fair amount of judging and condemnation yourself Mr. T. But it is fine for all in the “Truth” to judge and condemn any that not part of the group. After all, y’all believe that you the only “right ones”. By the way, it is your group that is doing the CSA/SA. We as victims have a right to be angry – we were slandered and lied about when these crime’s occurred. Don’t forget, God will be the final judge.
TFE, it appears you are quite angry and do not show much love. I feel most responses on WFT are constructive, and not blatantly mean spirited like your posts sound. You say, “I accept (the head workers) apology and I will give them some time”. I hope you have a lot of time, because there isn’t anything that will change. These guys want to placate the members and still make exception for their buddies, the sex predator and those who covered for the predators. What you speak TEF, is just ” blather”.
Que triste como suena esto. Jesús tolera el pecado?… No.!!! la biblia dice que Dios aobrrece el pecado. Estamos hablando de una comunidad de personas que han renacido de nuevo, por la obra del Espiritu Santo…. quienes somos llamados hermanos en la Fé de Jesucristo. Por eso tenemos autoridad para opinar, no podemos ser tolerantes con el pecado dentro de la comunidad. Es lo que esta pasando en el mundo, la falsa tolerancia, termina aceptando cosas depravadas, que siendo mentiras repetidas con los años se abrazan como verdad. Yo todavía tengo esperanza que se levanten hombres de Dios Valientes que pongan orden y barran la casa de los falsos siervos que como lobos rapaces solo siguen su propio estomágo.
Translation
How sad this sounds. Jesus tolerates sin?… No.!!! The Bible says that God hates sin. We are talking about a community of people who have been reborn again, by the work of the Holy Spirit…. who are called brothers in the Faith of Jesus Christ. That is why we have the authority to express an opinion, we cannot be tolerant of sin within the community. It is what is happening in the world, false tolerance ends up accepting depraved things, which being repeated lies over the years are embraced as truth. I still have hope that brave men of God will rise up to put order and sweep the house of the false servants who, like ravenous wolves, only follow their own stomach.
https://www.gotquestions.org/whole-counsel-of-God.html
We need to teach/preach the whole council of God, no cherry picking verses allowed.
Comparing Jesus tolerance of Judas to the dispicable way that CSA and SA was and is still handled in this fellowship is insane, period.
Louise, you are correct!!! The crucifixion of Jesus was predicted many, many years before Jesus was born. Jesus predicted His own death three times, and the Old Testament has over 300 mentions of Jesus before he was born. Judas was part of the plan and was needed to fulfill the prophecy. Jesus Christ willingly dying for all mankind has no comparison to child sex abuse. “Comparing Jesus tolerance of Judas to the dispicable way that CSA and SA was and is still handled in this fellowship is insane, period”. That is nuts! The evil of child sexual exploitation is simply that; evil. This evil is not necessary to fulfill any prophecy! The cover up of this evil simply shows where the minds of these people/ workers are. To tolerate child exploitation is of the devil and these men are being controlled by the devil. Their actions and choices make that abundantly clear. Jesus Christ would not tolerate these actions as He did Judas. Comparing the two situations as one and the same, shows a very dismal knowledge of what Jesus is for. And Jesus would be for these evil people.
Jesus would NOT be for these evil people, the head workers, making such horrible decisions!!!
For Christ- I agree with you, it’s truely nuts!
It reminds me of the crazyness we see even with gender identity these day’s, people are going crazy, calling normal abnormal and visa versa.Doesn’t it say something about this in the Bible?
henoffour — your post, August 30, 2023 at 10:03 pm, is VERY enlightening. Thank you!
Daily reminder that if you care more about people leaving the fellowship than you do about workers covering up any kind of abuse and not reporting crimes to authorities and moving pedophiles around from field to field then you’re the problem too. Have a nice day.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
This verse has come to mind many times as I have read many of the comments on this site. I have read posts from some of you that have been abused or you know someone who has been abused and much is said about how they need to pay the consequensas of their sins, they need to be in jail, they are evil etc etc. it’s like, if they suffer than I’ll be happy? If they suffer than the victim will feel better?it all sounds very close to avenging ourselves, with lots of wrath. Another verse comes to mind along this line.. Math 5:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. I don’t believe seeking vengeance and forgiveness go together.I noticed in this verse there are no conditions on what the other person did or didn’t do after the trespass. It simply says we need to forgive.
This brings up the issue of repentance that could come after the trespass. If there is no repentance God can have no fellowship with the sinner and neither can we. But that doesn’t take away our need to forgive if we want forgiveness from God. In reality it is only God who can truly measure whether there is repentance. If there is repentance He will gibe forgiveness and He will give His Spirit. It is only then that we can have sweet fellowship with our Father and His children.I hope we each can see the need for His forgiveness.
Repent is an action word meaning acknowledge, apologize, make restitution and turn from the sin/ crime. Only God can know that the 4th one has been done. For many of us this is not a forgiveness issue. This is a safety issue with common sense solutions: 1. inform people of the alleged offenders. 2. Remove the alleged from meeting in accordance with professional advice, scripture, logic and statistics. Forgiveness from God requires repentance. In the past steps 1 & 2 have not been done and there has most often been zero repentance. Some professionals have said that the few repentant predators are willing to bear the social consequences of their actions including prison. Right now, several thousand friends and many workers are concerned and raising their voices, and still there is tremendous push back to change. Why is that? It is because we are wrestling with spiritual wickedness in high places. There is significant willful blindness that we are pushing back against. The status quo is indefensible. RETREAT!
re·pent
/rəˈpent/
verb
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin.
That is the dictionary meaning. I personally like the definition that Godly repentance is saying and showing my way is wrong and Gods way is right. You bring up a good point that most of us don’t look at a non repentant sinner as someone we need to forgive. That is why I have thought of that thought so often, that if we do not forgive those who sin-against us than God won’t forgive our sins. We do have a couple of good examples in the Bible of this in action. Steven being stoned to death and Jesus on the cross, both saying Father forgive them they know not what they do. Of course there was no repentance that preceded this.
People that rape little children LOVE you.
Since I said without their repentance and forgiveness from God we can have no fellowship with them, I doubt what you say is true.
Using your logic in quoting scripture there would be no need for a criminal justice system, laws, courts, police or jails. We would all just sit around and let crime run rampant like in Haiti or Afghanistan or San Francisco. God will avenge all, but maybe not in our life. Thus, the need for law and order.
Maybe you are just wanting this scripture to apply to your group, so the peds and pervs and preds can keep doing what they are doing without consequences?
That is your logic not mine. Glad you have such a pure life that you don’t need to forgive others. Carry on my good man.
Wow….Amen you lost it on this one…..us wanting the abusers to suffer…..God is going to take care of thar and deal with them much later.
ITS ABout Getting the Peds and pervs off the street so they can’t continue to abuse more children which create more NEW VICTIM’S and more destroyed lives!!!!
Not sure what I lost, I agree completely with getting them off the street. They won’t be found in my home, and they weren’t allowed around my children. I guess I should qualify that last statement because there is one of the alleged pedophiles who has repeatedly been named on this site that was a great help to one of my sons, and another who was a great help to two of my grandsons.
Of course that was before any accusations were made against them. That is the difficulty we all face with this issue, it is extremely hard to know who the perpetrators are. It’s not obvious to most and the same person can appear very normal to some, because they are, and appear as devils to others, because they are.
I too have had much help from more than one brother worker who has now been outed. But, that’s what Grooming looks like. They are so very kind and helpful, which makes it hard for other adults to believe they’re evil. Which is part of their plan, to keep the children silent. Your boys were being groomed to be victims. Thankfully, there wasn’t opportunities given for them to become victims!
Now I see why almost all comments on this site are so negative. I have tried to write some that are positive and they disappear?
You had two posts go to Spam. There must have been some trigger words in there for the WordPress algorithm. Both posts are now up. If there are more missing, let us know.
That took care of it. Thank you.
Ironically I chose the name Amen because I finally found a positive post, but I didn’t find many more.