Introduction by the group “Connected and Concerned Friends”
A week ago, we received the attached letter from a worker who viewed the Connected and Concerned Friend’s forum. The writer’s intention was to post it publicly, but we have chosen to protect their identity.
While this letter is written by one individual, we believe it represents the views of enough people in the ministry to warrant a response. We appreciate that this letter gives us another opportunity to explain the purpose of this community. This forum was created to keep individuals informed, connected, and working toward positive change within the fellowship, specifically in response to the crisis of child and adult sexual abuse. In all of this, the goal is to uphold Jesus and support the healthy examination of traditions. Our effort isn’t about making Jesus less, it’s about making Him everything, as in Him there is no abuse, deceit, or harm.
Genuine faith in Jesus is not fragile and will stand up to questions, discomfort, and introspection. We believe that our fellowship will be strengthened (not weakened) by healthy examination, transparent communication, acknowledgment of wrong, and by advocating for meaningful policies and the lawful response to crimes.
We have attached the original letter (name redacted) and have also included our response to that letter directly below this introduction. Our team wants to acknowledge and thank the many workers and friends who are showing compassion, wisdom, and courage in our current crisis. As always, we appreciate your respectful comments and thank you for continuing to adhere to our Code of Conduct.
From the Connected and Concerned Friends Hosts
CONNECTED AND CONCERNED FRIENDS RESPONSE TO LETTER
Prior to our point by point response below, one of our hosts wrote this after reading this worker’s letter to us, and we wish to include this in our opening:
Friends,
I recently returned from a camping trip to the North Shore of Minnesota. As my husband and I pulled into our camping spot for the night, I received the aforementioned letter. I read it quickly before setting up camp and tried pushing the thoughts of it away so I was able to focus on my family. But that night as I pondered the letter and stared into the flames of our campfire, I was wondering how Moses knew that the bush was burning but not being consumed. It’s easy enough to see that a bush is on fire, but possibly harder to realize that it isn’t burning away. When I was watching those logs, it was pretty obvious that the only way he knew they weren’t burning up, is if he stopped and studied their unwithering leaves with curiosity. Only then did God speak to Moses out of the bush and show him the plan for saving Israel out of Egypt.
Why do I mention this? Because for the last several months there have been many in our fellowship who have viewed our current situation with panic. Friends and workers alike have tried with all of their might to put out the fire and return everything to “normal”. The woeful part of this response is that they are not beholding the church with wonder and seeing that while it is currently engulfed with flames, it isn’t consumed. They are not looking at individuals who feel righteous anger and genuinely marvelling that their faith in Jesus isn’t consumed. That although their trust in the system is completely shattered – that their desire to have fellowship isn’t consumed. That although their lifelong dreams of raising children in a seemingly idyllic tradition has crumbled – that their trust in a glorious God isn’t consumed. That although they’ve borne abuse and neglect – that their hope in a righteous God isn’t consumed. How can people be so thoroughly encompassed with fire, yet not consumed? It is because God is in it.
We are collectively a burning bush – completely encompassed with righteous anger – yet not consumed with despair because our faith is in the Living God. How can we speak of such horrifying crimes, such disgusting abuse of power, such wretched deceit, and still believe that there is beauty to attain to? Because we are burning, but not consumed. We ask that our fellowship stop trying to quench the righteous fire, and instead marvel that God is in His people.
So, how do we marvel at a church that is completely engulfed and not rush to quench it? This is how: we listen to people. We validate their broken trust. We learn from the most vulnerable, whose voices had long ago been silenced. We reach out our shaking and weary hands to other hurting people. We focus on Jesus – the glorious and mighty Savior, and lay aside any falsehood that man or form is the answer to our salvation. And this is the point of our effort: to marvel at the church that should be destroyed, but somehow in its people, there’s a kernel of genuine faith still very much alive.
A few weeks ago I was talking to a worker in my state. On this day they confided in me that it was hard to take criticism from individuals who are encompassed with righteous anger even though there is shared urgency. I said “I’ll stand in the gap for you.” I wasn’t sure what that would look like, but I was genuine in my offer to take some of the heat. Shortly after, I was asked to be a host on this platform and I very much see myself in that place. Standing in the gap. Taking the heat of emotion and betrayal and distrust from a church in flames. Taking some of the heat and channelling those emotions into a more productive avenue of activism. All so that maybe, just maybe, we can have a stronger and healthier fellowship when the smoke clears.
RESPONSE TO WORKER’s LETTER
The below text is a combination of documents. For ease of reading:
Black Text: One worker’s thoughts and concerns.
Green Text: Our team’s answer to their concerns/questions.
Blue Text: Copied sections of the Encouraging Thoughts letter.
________
Dear Connected and Concerned Friends,
I have some questions and suggestions for this group (5 main questions, 5 main suggestions, 5 pages). There are many in this group that I know, love, and respect. I don’t want them to be taken up in something that is evil and against the will of God.
I sure don’t feel like I have all the answers and some of the things I say here could be totally wrong! Please forgive any of my misunderstandings. Thanks for giving me a safe place to share my feelings. Please consider and help me to be assured that this group is on the track:
QUESTIONS
1) What is the purpose of this group? The purpose of our platform is to advocate for meaningful change within the fellowship we love, by focusing on Jesus instead of tradition.
2) Where do you get your information? The letters from workers are shared by members who get that information from their staff. CSA/SA news is typically received from the workers, personal accounts, or AFTT and Wings.
3) Why are you doing what you are doing? As stated above, our mission is to advocate for meaningful change within the fellowship (particularly CSA/SA and root causes of abuse).
4) Who started this group? This forum started as encouraging texts between friends and acquaintances. Shane and Devon developed an app to keep our conversations going in a more organized way. The rest of the team followed shortly after to share concerns, hope, and possible solutions.
5) What is the end goal of this group? Our team would love it if this community conversation led to a furthering of cooperation between the ministry and friends. Through cooperation we desire to enact changes that address CSA/SA abuse, root causes, communication, and a refocusing of the fellowship on Jesus instead of tradition.
SUGGESTIONS
1) Don’t Go Too Far
Sometimes a strong reaction is necessary. An extreme overreaction is never the answer. When you are driving you might get very close to the edge of the road. There is a real and significant danger. Does that mean you should jerk the wheel as hard and fast as you can away from the edge? You will probably roll the vehicle and get yourself and those riding with you killed or seriously injured. We are aware that the issue of child sexual abuse, sexual abuse in all its forms, is a very serious issue. The danger is real. Does that warrant an extreme overreaction? Emotions can cloud judgment. Emotions are high. Enemies of God and His people have been given great occasion to blaspheme. Old wounds have been torn open again. We can’t let all of that cloud our vision. We shouldn’t make hasty decisions. We must be sure they are the right ones. It is good that some have been outspoken about the issue for the sake of those who have suffered abuse and for the sake of our fellowship. I fear some might take liberties they shouldn’t. Even if we are the victims of abuse or feel we should defend those who are or could be in danger of being, it gives us NO right to: slander, harass, spread lies, falsely accuse, try to change the perfect way God has made, become self-righteous, or many other ways we could err.
We agree that no one should be spreading lies, slandering, or harassing anyone on the platform. Our Code of Conduct is clearly stated and we have a team of 13 people (currently) who monitor posts and comments in real time. An urgent and bold stance on CSA/SA and the examination of root causes is not an overreaction.
2) Be Realistic
Many have been hurt. Some assert that we need to “make sure this never happens again!” That is impossible. We can’t eliminate all risks. We would have to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and supervise everyone 24/7 so we could intervene when they are about to make an error. Even with our best of efforts and protocols, if people are involved, there will be risk. Should we put cameras in all of the families’ homes? Should we put GPS trackers on everybody? Should we live in communes with glass walls so everybody is always supervised? Don’t let your emotions trump reason.
The traditions of our fellowship (particularly focusing on form/outward appearance, imbalance of power, and not wanting to “gossip”, etc.) have created a culture that allows perpetrators to operate with ease. No one is saying we should have cameras and GPS trackers. There are solutions that have proven effective at reducing abuse and we are advocating for those policies. (Zero-tolerance policies, prevention strategies, education, third party investigation of accusations, balance of power, transparency, communication, etc.)
3) Be Patient
People often urge us to “Do Something!”. It is said that caution is the greater part of wisdom. We are wise to be cautious. We are dealing with very serious issues and pressure to act can build rapidly. The immediate reaction is not always the best one.
We understand that policy changes, nationwide consistency, and the rebuilding of trust will take time. But patience is not the same as passivity. We hold patience for the process of meaningful changes, but we do not have patience for inaction and half-hearted attempts.
4) Remember The Goal
I understand Connected and Concerned Friends to be a group wanting to help us address the issue of sexual abuse. Is it? I would hate for it to become:
– A hate group against God, His people, and His ministry.
– A group that uses the issue of sexual abuse as a weapon to advance its own personal agenda.
It would be shameful to use those who have suffered abuse to try and impose warped human ideas on the people of God.
CCF has always been about encouraging healthy and much needed change within the fellowship. There is no hidden agenda. Our fellowship will be strengthened (not weakened) by healthy examination, transparent communication, acknowledgment of wrong, and by advocating for meaningful policies and the lawful response to crimes.
5) Retract and Revise the ‘SupportiveLetterToTheWorkers’.
I hope whoever put this letter together had good intentions. It seems full of misunderstanding. I found it alarming and offensive. It reflects very badly on the Connected and Concerned Friends group and perhaps completely misrepresents the opinions of the members. Here are my feelings and concerns:
“To the workers advocating for change”
Please explain ‘change’. What kind of change are you looking for? Do you want better understanding of and action in dealing with the sexual abuse issue? That is a reasonable and much-needed change. Do you want to make the way of God and His ministry into what you want it to be in your human thinking? That never goes well. Read Numbers 16 for one example.
The letter you are referencing is a compilation of messages from members. This was a collaborative effort with no single author. The letter was sent by individuals who wanted to encourage their workers to listen and advocate for change. The change we are advocating for is an appropriate response to CSA/SA (which includes: prevention, education, third party investigation of accusations, balance of power, transparency and communication.)
Reminder:
Blue text: Encouraging Thoughts letter (written by multiple individuals)
Black text: One worker’s thoughts.
Green Text: Our team’s response.
“We see you. We appreciate you. We care for you. We are so thankful for your continuous effort to restore trust and to create a safer community. We need you. We can’t imagine how tremendously difficult it is for you right now. You’re hearing the desperate cries just as we are. You’re processing the layers of betrayal and distrust just as we are. You’re realizing how you’ve contributed to a silent and unsafe community, just as we are.”
You are very quick to focus on the ministry, perhaps putting all blame on the ministry, but what about your part in contributing to a silent and unsafe community? Is it not more likely that all of us: Workers, Friends, parents, siblings, everybody, have had a lack of knowledge and action that has contributed to problems with sexual abuse?
We agree that there is need for everyone to be more thoroughly educated on CSA/SA and that a balance of power between friends and ministry would be a healthy and overdue change. However, recent revelations have shown that our system of ministry is especially conducive to these types of abuse. Despite parent’s best efforts to keep children safe in their own homes and meetings, these abuses have continued to happen by authority figures (with the majority of those accusations involving workers). We are not “blaming” workers, we are observing that the patterns of abuse are particularly potent in our ministry. Part of our contribution to a safer community involves addressing the reason that these abuses are prevalent in the first place. Unfortunately, most efforts of addressing the systemic patterns of abuse have garnered little response or action from the ministry. We are willing to collaborate on this issue with friends and workers alike.
“There seems to be an expectation for you to suddenly get everything perfectly right without proper training. While you’re still hurting. Sometimes your heartfelt, best-intentioned words are attacked, your intentions misinterpreted.”
Those in this group don’t seem to have any qualms about attacking and misinterpreting others, attacking and misinterpreting the ministry especially.
This was a statement from a member who seems to be expressing their understanding that there is a lot of expectation put on the workers. This statement was meant to convey compassion for the workers, not to attack the ministry. In terms of attacking language on our platform, our Code of Conduct clearly states that people in our community must share their feelings in a respectful way, and we have a team of moderators to hold that standard. We understand that you and others may feel uncomfortable reading certain comments, simply because of the nature of the topics we are discussing. If you feel like people are misunderstanding you, we encourage you to engage in a respectful conversation with them and explain your point of view.
“We see you trying, and for that we are so thankful. We want to encourage you to keep fighting, keep working for justice, for safety, for the victim-survivors, for the women, children, and men in the fellowship. It’s ok if it’s not perfect from the first try. We often learn best from the act of trying. We promise to do our best to be gracious and understanding with our feedback.”
Thanks for this. We in the ministry need a lot of help and support and correction. I read many of the comments on the Connected and Concerned Friends site that give me the feeling of underlying resentment of the ministry. Can such a group adequately support the ministry in its efforts?
There is certainly a feeling of distrust and scepticism toward the workers by some of the friends. These feelings are a natural response to repeatedly witnessing victim stories being ignored, belittled, covered up, and dismissed by members of the ministry. In terms of our platform supporting the ministry, we believe that giving the community a place to share those feelings is how we begin the process of healing trust.
While all of this is going on, you’re expected to maintain your position and routine in the ministry – continuing to visit homes, continuing gospel meetings and conventions, continuing to “be there” for everyone around you – while you’re struggling to process everything yourself.
I’m glad you understand this.
We do, and we appreciate how exhausting this process is for everyone involved.
“The ministry you’ve given your life to has betrayed you. Your companions, your overseers, those you’ve looked to for guidance, those you’ve confided in.”
The ministry has betrayed us? Really? That is an appalling accusation and misunderstanding. Some of our Friends have made very bad choices that hurt others. Do we say, “Our fellowship and Friends have betrayed us!”? No, it is INDIVIDUALS who have betrayed us.
I believe the betrayal that this member is referring to is the system of how our ministry operates (hierarchy, lack of transparency, no legal recourse) that has led to a culture where these crimes are able to happen and go unchecked.
“And yet, you continue to have a love for the ministry, a love for souls. And that’s why you keep fighting. You know God is still reigning, that God is righteous in His judgment and cares so deeply for the victim-survivors you’re fighting for.”
I agree God still reigns, is righteous in His judgment, and cares deeply for all hurt by abuse. You’re not sure how much longer your boss is going to be in his position. And yet you feel compelled to continue under his direction. There are so many conflicting commands surrounding you: from the concerned, from the victim-survivors, from the young workers, from the head workers, from those asking you to be silent.” Who is ‘our boss’? Do you mean the overseer(s)? The overseer of the state I’m in is not my boss. He doesn’t think he is and he doesn’t want to be! This statement is a total misrepresentation of the ministry and overseers. I have spent a lot of time with several overseers. Sure, some overseers have done wrong and haven’t been true to their calling. Does that make the rest of them wrong? Did Judas’s failure make the rest of the apostles wrong? Did they need to totally reform the ministry because he fell? You seem to misunderstand the role of an overseer. An overseer isn’t the one who ‘makes all the decisions’ and ‘has absolute authority’, though he certainly gets blamed for decisions if people don’t like them! It is not a position we covet for personal gain. Sisters and brothers aren’t standing in line to become overseers. The burdens and responsibilities are great. The pressure is great. The criticism is great as Connected and Concerned Friends and other groups undeniably prove. It is horrible that you would disrespect overseers as a whole, men who are giving their lives and are willing to fill such a difficult role.
We do not disrespect overseers as a whole, but the characterization that overseers do not have the authority is not true. We need a culture of introspection that examines this hierarchy so that a multitude of diverse perspectives can help guide the fellowship forward.
We in the ministry, overseers included, are servants working together. We are subject to God, each other, and the needs of all. God is our boss and He will be in power forever. It is appalling to say that someone else is ‘our boss’.
This was a comment from a member, and the term “boss” was an unfortunate choice. I think we can understand that this person was referring to the very obvious fact that the overseer holds some authority over other workers. Just like all of us have a natural boss at work, your overseer is yours. They are the ones who assign what field you preach in, which companion you will be with, where to go for convention preparations, etc. Again, the word that this individual chose wasn’t helpful, but it also wasn’t inaccurate.
“We encourage you to continue to listen to the voice that matters the most: our Heavenly Father’s. And while we long to be an encouragement and support to you, we know that He is the greatest source of comfort, hope, and support for you, as well as us.”
That’s good advice! This letter seems like poisoned honey; there are some good thoughts, but also many that are toxic.
An encouragement to examine root causes and traditions may be uncomfortable, but it is not toxic.
“And here are some words of encouragement that folks from our group (a group of nearly 1400 friends supporting you)”
Our group. I thought we were the family of God and all in this together. Why do you need to organize into a special group? Whenever people organize in such a way, it typically doesn’t lead to good things. They feed on each other’s anger and misunderstanding and feel empowered to go beyond what is true, right, decent, and acceptable. Mob mentality enters into the picture. I hope this group hasn’t become or doesn’t become a hate group against workers, against God, and against His people.
Again, this forum is moderated and held to the standard of our Code of Conduct. This forum hopes to encourage change from within the fellowship, not form a hate group outside of it. In terms of organizing, Human beings naturally organize. Conventions, meetings, worker state staffs, and work days are other examples of ways that humans organize into groups of people. Cultural bias is a genuine concern for any large group, including our fellowship as a whole, so we must be diligent to focus on Jesus.
“Truth sets us free. Any delay in removing predators implies guilt or complicity. Survivors have waited decades, years to feel safe in fellowship. Thank you for ensuring meetings are a refuge, not a torture chamber.”
I can see the importance of dealing with predators wisely, which could involve conviction, removal from fellowship, whatever is appropriate. I can see the importance of being sensitive to those who have suffered abuse and not forcing them to be in company with a person(s) who would make them feel unsafe. I feel like supporting those who have suffered abuse is a critical issue in all that has happened lately.
However, this letter makes it seem like the two ways this group wants to accomplish this are:
1) Take control of the ministry. Untrue. We wish to work alongside workers in the ministry.
2) Attack those who have been accused of sexual abuse. Perpetrators of sexual abuse must be handled by professionals. We have no desire to attack individuals, but discussing their actions may feel unsavory based on the nature of those crimes.
There is a lot more to helping the problem than removing known predators and somehow reforming the ministry: Yes. We must examine root causes.
Removing known predators is important, but what about supporting those who have made mistakes and repented? Yes. Professionals can support perpetrators. We are not the judge of any person’s salvation, and their fellowship needs can be met in many ways outside of meeting.
How do we keep children safe from those who we don’t know are sexual predators? Education, prevention systems (such as provided by GRACE organization), and meaningful no tolerance policies.
How do we balance trust and precaution? Meaningful policies, transparency, and communication will result in both protection for children and an increase in trust.
What about fostering love and having a conscience toward God, rather than police force and written policies? What about the unity of the Spirit rather than unity of political will? Love toward God motivates us to advocate for meaningful policies to protect our most vulnerable. The Spirit will always move us to protect and serve one another.
What about actually wanting God’s will to be done rather than our own? Jesus protected the vulnerable, defended the children, cared for the widows, and provided for the poor – the Will of God is very clearly in favor of protecting the vulnerable.
What about teaching your children, while they are in a safe environment, how to keep safe when they are out in the world? Yes, parents have been doing this for generations. Ironically, parent’s feel that keeping their children safe in public situations is less difficult than keeping them safe from perpetrators in their meetings and homes.
What about making Jesus the priority in a family’s home? Of course.
What about maintaining a good spirit in the home? Of course.
I fear for the children whose parents are involved in a group that would have such tunnel vision and misunderstanding. What kind of spirit are those parents bringing into their home? A spirit of hate and disrespect for the ministry? A spirit of pride and self-righteousness? A spirit of scorn and vengeance? Hopefully nobody in this group has that kind of a spirit and I am simply misunderstanding where you are coming from. You really need to revise this letter if that is the case.
Being aware of problems isn’t the same as having a spirit of hatred. The feeling of righteous anger is not the spirit of disrespect. The feeling of urgency isn’t the spirit of pride. When faced with such wretched crimes and deeds within our own fellowship, we absolutely should feel alert, angry, urgent, and motivated to do something. These are appropriate feelings to experience and help to teach our children the importance of valuing and helping the vulnerable.
“Jesus doesn’t change, but we must. For all of these years, we have not. Seems like we’ve focused more on Paul than on Jesus (more on appearance than the weightier matters). We completely support all of your efforts to be more like Jesus. We are trying to do the same.”
Where did this thought come from? Have you even read Acts and Paul’s letters? If that’s what we get from his life and teachings, we don’t understand Paul at all. Paul encouraged those he wrote to and labored among to focus on Jesus. He was focused on the weighty matters. Paul’s life and writings help us to focus on Jesus. If we began focusing on Paul, wouldn’t we realize he points us to Jesus as the One we should focus on? Of course, we as humans are prone to focusing on appearance rather than what is really important, but to say that Paul has led us astray to focus on appearance rather than the weighty matters is nonsense.
This comment from a member may have been well meaning, but we agree, does misunderstand Paul.
“We are here, “waiting in the wings” to help with anything we possibly can. To support you, to work with you, to facilitate the needed changes within our fellowship. Please don’t hesitate to reach out with anything we can do to be of help for the greater work currently happening.
Finally, if you are not ok, that is ok. There is support available, and it is ok to seek out that support. With a unified purpose for truth, honesty, and God’s will to be done, Connected & Concerned Friends”
Nice words, but I wish the rest of the letter gave me more confidence in the group. Based on other parts of the letter, if I needed help, I would certainly go elsewhere.
There are many resources available, and we encourage you to find help and support in the way that best serves you.
ANALYSIS OF LETTER BY A CCF GROUP PROFESSIONAL
When we are discussing issues as complex and vulnerable as child and adult sexual abuse within a church, a bilateral and ongoing conversation is ideal. It could be unwise to attempt to understand the heart and mind of a representative of the ministry based on this letter. Still, there are questions we might ask, things we might be curious about.
- “What is it you feel?” Despite using the word “feel” and “feeling” 8 times through this letter, the writer does not share with us what they are feeling. Relational communication includes vulnerability, the sharing of one’s own feelings and curiosity about the other’s feelings, thoughts, motives. Our Father and our older Brother, and the Holy Spirit, are fully expressive of their feelings, giving them words, and intensity, and value. We may have gender, ethnic, cultural, or familial reasons for discomfort with feelings, but our Creator does not.
- Despite not identifying their own feelings, the writer expresses significant mistrust, fear, and anger towards the leaders and participants in Connected and Concerned Friends, including fear of those involved forming a “hate group.” We could ask, “What is it that you most fear?” When we are not in touch with our own fear, we are in danger of projecting unkind motives onto others, to misunderstanding others, to moving into extreme stances that make it more difficult to connect.
- “Who are you protecting?” While the writer states a wish to take appropriate action for the protection of victims of sexual abuse, the letter focuses on false allegations, dismantling or discrediting of the ministry, “extreme overreaction,” C&CF using sexual abuse as a Trojan horse for forum member’s personal agendas, the difficult and unrewarding role of overseer, and much more.
- “Is it ok for the ministry and friends to see things differently? Do you believe friends can have a personal connection to God, be led by the Holy Spirit, and have revelations from scripture?” Throughout the letter, while the author acknowledges that they don’t “have all the answers” and need to be forgiven for any “misunderstandings,” they also state they “don’t want [the members] to be taken up in something that is evil and against the will of God”, give strong warnings through a metaphor about driving too close to the edge of the road, urge the readers to “be realistic,” “be patient,” “remember the goal,” “retract and revise the letter to workers,” speak out against mob mentality, and 3 times opine that friends are forming a hate group and/or fostering a spirit of hate for the ministry.
- “What do you see as a better path forward?” Unfortunately, much of the letter is written using logical fallacies:
- Slippery slope and straw man: The author states that the forum is working to “make sure [csa/sa] never happens again” (a straw man, as that is not the stated goal of the forum) and then attacks that with a slippery slope argument that things will go too far and we will end up using GPS trackers, video monitors in every home, and glass-wall communes.
- False equivalence: In speaking of the role of overseers and the ministry, the author attempts to narrate the responsibility as belonging to “INDIVIDUALS” rather than accepting responsibility and accountability as one member of the larger ministry.
- Straw man (again): By repeatedly accusing the forum of being a “hate group,” a group that is using child sexual abuse as a tool to advance its own personal agenda, and other hostile views, the writer has created their own license to discredit the group. (Note: It is unclear how the author believes 2000+ have come together non-anonymously to advance a destructive agenda against the ministry.)
- Red herring: By focusing on the writer’s fears about the group, attention is taken away from the issue of child sexual abuse by ministers and friends; lack of meaningful repentance or acknowledgement from the ministry for its role; lack of transparency from the ministry about communication, decisions, overseer meetings; state or national policy; or law enforcement involvement.
While logical fallacies do not automatically destroy effective communication, they hinder it. The listener is left sorting through the illogic, confused and baffled by what is being communicated. The focus is taken away from the original concern. When reading this letter, the reader knows the routes the writer does not want to take but does not hear what the writer considers a better path forward.
- “What do you value?” The writer states their desire to deal with the issue of sexual abuse of children and adults, but most of the letter is focused on maintaining the `status quo, expressing negative thoughts about the believed intentions of forum members, and critiquing the content of the Letter to Workers.
Our concerns about this letter and ideas presented in it:
Our faith group has been long plagued by sexual abuse of children and adults, the hiding and enabling of that abuse, as well as lack of transparency or communication about the structure, power, and finances of the authorities: Overseers, workers, elders. While many have been suffering from the abuse for generations, some have become newly aware of the depth and breadth of the problem. People feel betrayed, deeply wounded, mistrustful, afraid, sick, devastated. It is in this climate that this worker’s letter was written and attempted to be publicly posted on Connected and Concerned Friends. (Sources, see CSA and SA News, WingsfortheTruth.info, AdvocatesfortheTruth.com)
Here is what a survivor might notice in this letter:
(Please note: survivors will have a variety of responses, and all responses are valid, legitimate, and understandable. We do not speak for all survivors and encourage survivors to speak for themselves if they feel safe doing so)
- The writer offers no plan of action.
- The writer does not connect empathetically with survivors in any meaningful way, and it is not clear that the writer has attempted to understand the experience of sexual abuse of a child or adult. The writer lacks empathy or understanding and may benefit from reading survivor’s accounts of their abuse.
- The writer minimizes the ministry’s role in an apparent attempt to shift the shame and blame to “individuals” and friends. Rather than using their role in the ministry to accept blame, responsibility, and accountability for those who will not accept those things (as Jesus did for all of us), the survivor may see the writer distancing from all accountability and responsibility.
- The writer focuses on the possibility of false allegations and protection of perpetrators in the lines: “Attack those who have been accused of sexual abuse” and that we have no right to “…slander, harass, spread lies, falsely accuse, try to change the perfect way God has made, become self-righteous, or many other ways we could err.” From a survivor’s viewpoint, it is clear the author has strong suspicions that there are many false allegations. A survivor would likely not trust this writer to believe his or her experience of sexual abuse. The author will likely be seen as lacking in empathy to understand what it costs for a victim to come forward and speak their shameful story.
- While the writer states the ministry and friends should be united and not in separate groups, a survivor will also notice that they repeatedly defend the ministry, attack the friends, speak against false allegations, and do not offer meaningful protection for abuse survivors or prevention of further abuse.
- In reading the logical fallacies noted above, a survivor may feel characterized as hysterical, overreacting, disbelieved, unprotected, maligned, and suspected of being resentful, hateful, or rebellious…due to joining a community of friends who are finally boldly, consistently speaking out against violation, deceit, mismanaged power, oppressive traditions, and unlawfulness (both in committing crimes and then covering them up).
- In the author’s denial of the power of even the overseer, the survivor will understand that the writer either cannot see power and oppression or is so far unwilling to admit their existence, which is in itself a blindly privileged stance. The survivor may conclude that the writer is unwilling to use their power and privilege for the good of survivors but is instead committed to pretending it does not exist.
Here is how a survivor might feel upon reading this letter:
Hurt, confused, angry, betrayed, helpless, shocked, horrified, powerless, ashamed, withdrawn, mistrusting.
Closing comments:
- The ministry and the church are not equal and not the same parts of the body. The ministry needs to take responsibility for what they own, and the church does also. (see “differentiation,” “boundaries,” “authoritarian versus authoritative”)
- It is ok for one crisis to open a much larger conversation. People are trying to understand how sexual abuse of children and adults could have been a problem for as long as it has, and they are looking at all the possible factors. (see “systemic change” and “first- and second-order change”)
- Open discourse can be healthy. Truth, goodness, beauty, and truth can withstand the challenges of examination and discussion (see all the stories of Jesus talking about uncomfortable things; “open systems” versus “closed systems”).
- Relationships between people and parts of a church work better when both are willing to listen, truly, curiously, with an open heart and mind, and without suspicion. (see “reflective listening”).
- Due to the nature of this crisis, with ministry violating the church, repeatedly hiding that violation, and moving workers around, the onus of listening is on the ministry. It is problematic for the ministry to ask the church to tend to their needs for two reasons: The ministry has betrayed the church. The ministry is in a position of power over the church. (see Diane Langberg’s book Redeeming Power for a discussion of good use of power and authority).
- What a survivor may want to see instead are:
- Accountability
- Transparency
- Empathy and compassion
- Respect for boundaries
- Commitment to restoration and justice
- Humility and willingness to seek outside help
To find a path forward, significant relational repair will be needed. Unfortunately, the thoughts and beliefs expressed in this letter do more to wound those harmed by sexual abuse and the church that is trying to protect them and prevent future abuse.
*** NOTE*** CCF have received feedback to this letter. See the PDF below.
The orignal letter from the worker to the CCF Group
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Yes! That is what I mean. People thought I had an unchristian spirit in my last post to you, but I was trying to help you te see how your posts were coming across. This is better. Simple and compelling!
After reading the pdf FIVE PAGE DOCUMENT from the worker, I feel like I just got sent to my room without any supper. With this attitude, how does one speak up about our concerns or confide in this worker and the rest of the staff that are right along beside him/her. It also creates a struggle to provide a home, etc for them. We so hope they realize this SOON.
Thanks for your feedback, I won’t do the effort of even reading it now.Waste of time.
But William Irvine and Edward Cooney DID start this fellowship. My parents, who heard workers in the 1920s, always acknowledged this (as did those workers). Why do this worker and some others continue to call this fact “nonsense”? People can love the fellowship without thinking it had some tenuous “back to Galilee” thread.
I never heard of those men until I was in my 30s. By that time, I had already established a relationship with God and found that the meetings were the only place my souls was fed and refreshed. Yes, I was born and raised, 3rd generation. Those men have zero to do with my current relationship with God, but they were instruments used by God to establish the form that goes on today and brings a lot of joy to people in meetings. Whether they stayed faithful to God or not is of little consequence in my life. He used them for a specific purpose.
So I don’t really want to hear about them, and I certainly won’t be talking about them, but if anyone asks me, I have no problem telling them that God raised up some people in Ireland to spread the Gospel.
It is what started on the shores of Galilee that we believe and follow, not an unbroken succession of people.
Thank you for a most enlightening letter. We needn’t offer templates for the workers to use to respond to Friends – their true responses are important to note. The CCF professional’s take on the letter is also very enlightening. How did we go so far astray as to having to defend changes that mean less child sexual abuse and rape from a worker who calls that a Hate Group??
Yes!!!
The attempts to force people back into being controlled is both sad and funny at the same time. If the workers want absolute control, there needs to be accountability and responsibility with that. However, it is clear the workers who last held a job 50+ years ago are not able to understand how much has changed and have not developed the skills to guide a church.
Thanks “connected and concerned friends”
this is well answered! But why did you have a problem with my posts on connected and concerned friends when it was done in a civil but brutally honest way? If I that endured only emotional abuse in the fellowship was not allowed to be brutally honest in a civil way how would you handle survivors of CSA and SA’s brutal honesty? As I said, Jesus was brutally honest with the Pharisees, his diciples told Him that the Pharisees were offended by what He said, Jesus didn’t apologize for what He said, it was the truth.
NathanB: I was a member of CCF group about 4 days… I posted my testimony, the Deity of Christ, Jesus is God the Christ NOT God the Father, the Triune God, the history of Jesus 2×2 apostolic/workers ministry and New Testament fellowship 1800 years prior to the Faith Mission workers, William Irvine and the early days 2×2 workers… then the 5th day I got the message I was NO LONGER a member! I was shocked….
Nathan, Have you reached out to any of the Mods there to get specifics of how you may have violated the TOS? It may have just been an a bit of an overreaction to you posting your opinions of “doctrine” in the wrong part of the site. There are many specific threads for different types of discussions.
Hi RSR,
No, I haven’t. The readers were on the main chat discussing the Deity of Christ and I jumped in and we had good discussion. People love it, then they told me to move it to bible study “content” which I did. I followed their rules but still got banned.
I very disappointed, I wish them the best with their mission but I hope they don’t eventually throw the Baby/the Ministry and fellowship out with the Bath Water.
Yes that is strange indeed Nathan, did they give you any reason? What you said sounded all good, not that I agree with the ministry part but thats beside the point.
Hi Louise,
They did NOT give me any good reason… I told one moderator I love the friends and workers, the fellowship and God and I was NOT there to tear it down. Many readers enjoy reading my testimony and posts.
That is O.K. I see MANY of them want to focus mostly on CSA and get the ministry to deal with it and make it right with Zero Tolerance policy. I just want them to STAY focus on Jesus teachings, His Truth and Way… Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Some have made shipwreck of their faith in God and eventually become atheists.
God is cleansing the ministry, the friends and the Church, He is pruning, cutting away branches that is rotten, or produce no fruits. So, there are room for more good fruits to grow in the future. The Ministry and the Church will be SAFED for most everyone.
Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 13:7-8 7 Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong—not that we will appear to have stood the test, but that you will do what is right, even if we appear to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.
The Pharisees tried to destroy God and Christ’s True ministry and the New Testament fellowship through using Saul, who later changed his name to Paul. In Acts 5:33-35 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; and said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
~~ I tried to show the readers on CCF that Jesus 2×2 apostolic ministry and the New Testament fellowship was set up God the Father, who sent Christ/God His Son to carry on His plan of Salvation for humanity 1800 years prior to the Faith Mission, William Irvine and the early days 2×2 workers who tried to follow the same pattern.
If William Irvine and Edward Cooney 2×2 Humans experiment ministry and fellowship and origin of men it will fail and destroy itself eventually, BUT if the origin/foundation from God and Christ then be VERY, VERY careful because nobody wants to fight against God, Christ and Holy Spirit… the Result will be VERY bad in the end and for eternity.
Paul the apostle learned the HARD Way, he fought the way and truth of Jesus tooth and nail if it wasn’t for Jesus mercy on the Way to Damascus Acts 9 he would be paid a terrible price for it in the Day of Judgement.
Allow God, Christ and Holy Spirit purifying, cleansing the ministry and the Church but be very CAREFUL to say this is Cult and lead people out of the fellowship. I wouldn’t want to be in his/her shoes in the Judgement Day that caused people to lose their Crowns of life, eternal life forever. Point people to follow and focus on Jesus teachings as the Truth and Life.
NathanB
Truly. An outstanding letter
Written by professionals. There will be a split in the fellowship it has to come with the attitude that these folks have. If you hold Jesus in your heart folks please steer clear of these people. ANTI WORKER…AND ANTI FELLOWSHIP. ALL THEY WANT IS TO TEAR US APART.
You’re saying CCF folks are anti-worker, anti-fellowship and just want to tear you apart? That’s not my impression at all. Rather, I think they want JUSTICE for victims. And they want to see the kind of changes made to the way things have been done that contribute to abuse. Jesus would too. If you hold Jesus in YOUR heart you do not need to fear CCF or any other ‘group’ that may come from this critical time. And, if you hold Jesus in your heart you do not need to concern yourself with the critical thinking of others. If you are built on the rock foundation of Christ, it will withstand any group. So, trust God. He’s knows His. He will always have the back of His own. But that does not mean He won’t require true change in people.
That letter the worker wrote to correct CCF? I thought I might have to take some Peptobismol and it was hard to read. Not because it contained facts I would have a hard time facing. But because it so ‘missed the mark’ and is out of touch with reality.
None of this would be happening right now or even be a topic for letters if there wasn’t so much abuse and if it wasn’t covered up by so many for so long.
I Completely agree with you Angela. Sorry “Defender”, that sort of rhetoric is not only unhelpful, but toxic. You & this worker claim that CCF and others want to “Tear us apart” Yet the the loudest voices claiming there is some “rift” or “split” are coming from the likes of you. That’s like setting a house on fire then running around pointing at everyone else yelling “arson”. This is exactly the problem within the culture and tradition of this way that has led to so much trouble. Anyone who dares ask questions, or stand out by calling out abuses of power etc. have been chastised and accused of being some sort of antagonist. ANY organization, run by humans, that not only refuses to accept criticism or collective oversight, but then accuses even the most well intentioned suggestions of being “against them”, is not only corrupt, but doomed to repeat its mistakes till its own destruction. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, it’s fascinating, devastating, & infuriating, that those who are railing against change, those who are once again attempting to stick their heads in the sand, who are accusing everyone desperately searching for solutions of being the actual antagonists, Somehow these people don’t realize its their behavior, that not only caused this crapshow, but this behavior is killing the thing they claim to be defending. Without Major Change, Our little way, will die out.
Defender, I’m a little confused by your comment. First you said “truly. An outstanding letter. Written by professionals.” Are you referring to the worker’s letter? It was written by a minister, not by a professional. Then, you proceed to state “steer clear of these people. ANTI WORKER… AND ANTI FELLOWSHIP.” To whom are you referring? To the CCF group?
No, Defender. Opposing CSA and SA is neither anti-worker nor anti-truth. PERPETUATING ABUSE AND ENABLING PREDATORS IS ANTI-WORKERS AND ANTI-TRUTH. We watched as the Catholics struggled with ongoing sex abuse, the Mormons struggled with hidden wealth, and now we are disgusted to find those same things in our fellowship. It takes brave, honest people to want to save something that became so fat from God.
The worker’s letter to CCF reveals much about their own sick mind working to try to gaslight CCF and anyone who would dare question their authority and anyone who would dare question how the leadership has shown itself to be LUKEWARM in its response to the CSA\SA critical moments in the fellowship. Yes there’s been some response. But, I am afraid it’s terribly lacking and doesn’t really address the problem adequately nor address core issues and root causes. They don’t seem to get it. Little does this worker know, many will see right through this sick attempt at “correction”. And, for many it is simply too late. They have had too many chances. People have started notifying the FBI sad well as other law enforcement agencies and Advocates For the Truth. If there is stonewalling or silence now from workers they may have been instructed by their lawyers. We don’t blindly obey the workers. We are critical thinkers and we are using the brains endowed to us by God. The worker who wrote this letter comes across as if they think they have special power over people; which reveals he or she may be a narcissist, is grandiose? Or maybe they are actually scared of what is going to become of this. Sorry dude or dudette, your days of control over the flock are over.
I could not have said it better!
I believe there will be a split, has been one for decades, those that stand up for whats right, those that care about the vulnerable and innocent, those that follow God alone versus those that don’t want the boat rocked, worship the workers instead of God.It has to be, there is no other way, you can’t change a wolve in sheeps clothing to a sheep, only God can, their footprints have revealed their true identity being wolves.The true sheep will separate from them and follow their true Shepherd-Jesus.
Well said! Sadly I have to agree.
All this looks like the tower of babel. All the different ink colors, people can’t agree, everyone seemingly pulling in different directions, just confusion. If God’s word was the focus that would make it simple. Too much peoples view point here and not enough of God’s. Find peace and really read your Bible. Praying where God should led you. Read your Bible some more. You will find your answer. I have.
The answer to what? What to do about CSA / SA within this way? Reading the bible & praying will not make abuse stop.
What is your point here?
Hi there Louis. The ink colors were used to distinguish flow of thought. It was an attempt to capture conversation on paper and AVOID confusion. Personally, I think the true source of confusion are the numerous predators in our midst who have left a wake of destructon and harm, not these indivudals (in the letter above) attempting a civil, transparent conversation with a minister. Speaking to a minister and to our brethren is not defiance of God. If you are called to go inward and pray and read for direction, that’s wonderful. But not everyone will be called to an identical course.
Appreciated your response Abigail !
I am so glad they used different colors😊
Actually the different colors of ink are used to assist with clarity, so one is able to tell who is saying what. It’s well done. There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing a response to the worker letter in this format. I wouldn’t assume they have not read their Bibles. In fact they likely have.
To Nathan and Louis,
Thank you for your kindness. You have hearts that God has granted you to care about His cleansing and his purifying. I’m thankful we still hear His still small voice that He is purifying the dross from the gold. I’m glad for those who have pressed toward the High calling. I’m so glad losing my mom dad in their 90’s and 6 months apart, that they do not have to see this painful and hurtful division. Dad and mom both were in the work at one time, and I’m thankful for their faithfulness. I’m thinking of those precious souls who have gone onto their eternal reward and died for what they lived for. They do not have to see this pain and division of those they have loved so much..Thankful for His perfect cleansing..
Hi Mustardseed,
Thanks, for your kind words…. Your parents years labored in the work were NOT in vain, they have gone on to received their rewards, which they spent years in the work.
God has purifying and cleansing in Church from the beginning Read Revelation on the 7 churches, 5 churches were in bad and horrible conditions, teaching false doctrines, sexual immorality, Lukewarm services, idols worshipping and so on.
God and Christ have been cleansing and purifying the churches/True Bride constantly through the centuries to the time of His 2nd coming so the Bride of Christ to be clean and white as SNOW before God. The first nature must be subdued in this life so, the Second nature can rule and reign with Christ 1000 years. May God help us to allow to have Christ has full reign in our hearts.
I think it is clear.. the Christian faith as a whole is very divided. If you look at other major world religions – Hindu, Islam, Jew they all manage to keep themselves somewhat united.
Within the Christian faith there is always unhappiness and people who have the idea of a “better way”, the thing is with CCF, they won’t have anyone who is willing to take the jump of faith and have their own ministers – it will just be like Cooney and Irvine, they will split away and then split apart again based on other disagreements. This is how the Christian faith has been for 600 years, the most divided of them all being the USA – how many variations of “Christianity” are there in the USA?
I don’t see CCF as any form of solution. It will bring out people who support gay marriage, who support abortion, who support D&R, who support all the other items on todays woke USA agenda and automatically will lack unity.
The anger over CSA is legitimate, the suggestion that the solution is dividing and breaking things up – is not a solution in my mind.
Wow, I think you forgot about a lot of wars, beheading, terrorist activities, etc. If you think Islam is united.
Nowhere in the Bible are gay marriages supported or abortions. Men with men is an abomination to God.
Divorce and remarriage are supported in certain circumstances and in no circumstances is it the unpardonable sin. It is never called an abomination.
This is an in-depth subject, not the place to discuss it here.
Putting away and divorcing are two different things.
Many people have suffered needlessly because of the workers lack of understanding , condemnation , and judgment in this matter .
God doesn’t punish the victim.
Too bad they weren’t as diligent in their judgement of child sexual abuse and sexual abuse.
Please try to learn more about this topic so as not to cause more harm to innocent people.
Fervent, Ernest prayer is the best place to start, there is no authority greater than the Holy Spirit.
And may you never find yourself in the position of being divorced, it shatters many lives, thankfully our God helps us to pick up the pieces again.
Said in love and kindness.
CCF is trying to help in this crisis, as you are witnessing many workers , overseers, friends are silent.
There were no gay people or abortions in biblical times so it shouldn’t be surprising that the bible doesn’t address those two issues.
Well said!
To the professional who reacted to the workers letter.
The first part of your letter comes off as very unkind. How can we ever hope to build bridges if a worker raising concerns gets attacked in this manner?
You sound like you are trying to impress people with your academic terms. But it comes across as name calling and unkind to us who are used to normal letters and not academic papers. The second part is better.
But I will just be honest. This response just solidifies the fact that I have no interest in your group.
This comment is for the “professional” so I will make another comment to the group as a whole.
Really? You think they are just trying to impress people? You’re making an assumption. It’s possible they are just using a skill they have to communicate through writing. It could be their forte. Why are you slamming them? If you are secure in your calling and election there is no need to overly worry about what will become of the letters. You have mentioned cleansing….well, consider this exchange is part of that process.
To CCF.
I hear you, and I see you. You are frustrated, and so you have decided to “organize” a group to come up with solutions. You are frustrated with the workers, so you have built a box that you think the workers should fit into, and when workers don’t just hop into that box, you just get more frustrated.
I am not a member of CCF. I am afraid of a fellowship within the fellowship.
I am going to meeting and finding a lot of comfort there and praying. Yes, God is still on the throne, so let’s act like we believe that.
I am not suggesting inaction. If there is something I know about, I will report it to law enforcement or say something. If there is a victim I know, then I will reach out to them in person. I don’t have young children, but if I did, I would be proactive to protect them, and I do watch out for young children that I know and will say something to their parents if I think there should be more supervision.
I am not sitting around doing nothing. But I am also not a vigilante. If each of us looks after our little sphere of influence, then every part would be looked after. What good is 2400 or so people getting together and talking about what should be. And writing letters as one entity.
Why not write personal letters to your local workers if you want to encourage them? What good is a letter by a bunch of nameless, faceless people with questionable content that you don’t even agree with, yet you publish it.
People want to speak truth to power, but remember God is the One on the throne, so it would be good to be careful with our attitude and words. Rebellion is never right. Godly wisdom is right.
There are workers and friends who have used their liberty as a cloak of maliciousness. They are not true men and women, and they are a blight to our fellowship.
I am glad that God took down Dean as He did and in the place he did. There is no question about Dean! It is clear that God did that, and now He is using those that want to expose abusers for a good purpose. I am thankful there are those that want to expose every bit of darkness. Yes, people who are misunderstood are getting swept away with that intense focus, but that is ok. This work needs to be done, and if a few good men are accused, so be it. God knows! And those accusers will be held accountable of it is false. I don’t need to sort that out. God will.
But it is the way that people are wanting “meaningful change in our culture” that has me afraid. I would like to see a list of what you mean by meaningful change. How far are you wanting to go with that?
I think the workers (for the most part, not all) are trying. People are getting kicked out! None of the workers can feel anymore that things are getting swept under the carpet. It is all getting exposed from decades ago, and that is good! So now why can’t we just be patient and see how they do?
I want a list of the meaningful changes you think are magically going to make children safe.
I know some of your ardent supporters will attack me as having a wrong spirit and being so inferior to you. All that does is make me even more sure I don’t want to come to your platform. If my voice is not welcome.
I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am just asking questions for clarification.
TRT, it’s OK that you don’t get it. Not everyone will. The issue, however, is that you don’t want anyone else to say or do anything. The reality is that the workers only have power over people as people are willing to grant. In the coming months you will see more and more people step away as people like you claim there are no issues with CSA and SA. For every Dean Bruer, there are still 200+ predators hiding in the shadows. You are free to seek your own type, but it seems likely there won’t be others seeking fellowship with you.
If what you took away from my post is “as people like you claim there are no issues with CSA and SA,” then you obviously didn’t read it, so your other words are empty.
I am definitely not thinking “The issue, however, is that you don’t want anyone else to say or do anything.” You prove again and again that you didn’t read my post. You just want to throw out accusations. Fine.
Thanks for the interaction. It just proves my point that only certain voices are accepted by your enlightened group.
There has been a “significant trickle” of people leaving the meetings over these issues. However, there are a huge number of people who are graciously waiting to see if there is collective will to fix the problems. If that doesn’t become apparent over the next few months, the significant trickle will become a flood. The fellowship will be left with the blind leading the naked.
Watchman. I think you have a good point, and that is what I would urge people to do, be patient. The workers are having listening meetings. Maybe, just maybe something will come of this. I agree that it doesn’t have to be indefinite waiting, just a little patience.
You wrote you are afraid. Yes, you do appear to indeed be fearful. Fearful of what, specifically? You have absolutely nothing to fear if you’re following Jesus. I agree it will be sorted out. God has always worked through people to help bring about justice on earth. Are you trying to shame CCF into stopping their efforts? Such tactics have been used on victims for too long. You also come across as if you have special knowledge with regards to who goes on to a just reward. Or who doesn’t. Are you God? . CSA is a crime. The response to CSA from the workers In authority has overall been lukewarm. That’s simply not okay. CCF is clearly very concerned about this. For many folks this is simply a matter of good faith and doing what needs to be done to rightfully combat these terrible crimes. The leaders of the church are in a position to actually do the right thing here. This is a situation in we have already been very very patient. There comes a time when action is required. Mainly action for victims or potential victims.
Absolutely!
I think as long as hard lines are drawn regarding no interest in one group or another group, then constructive dialogue will always be stymied. I respect the attempt evident from both writers in that exchange to have dialogue, and both apparently listen to and learn from each other. That kind of cooperation will never be wrong.
Hello Nathan B- that is truely strange?
Sorry about your experience.
We aren’t going to agree about the meetings being the continuation of the 1 century churches and ministry, I have done a in-depth study of the 1 century churches versus the fellowship and it doesn’t compare, I will send a link of my study if you are interested to read.
Yes, Louise…. Please send me your study and finding on 1st century Jesus 2×2 apostolic ministry= The Vaudois or the Waldenses Vs. the early days 2×2 workers…. I will post my 40 years of studying/finding how the Vaudois/Waldenses have MANY similarities in doctrines, belief, the 2×2 apostolic/workers ministry and fellowship/worship in the homes of believers for 2000 years since the time of Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century….
I say this is TRULY great miracles when a person understands Jesus, the apostles teachings, the Vaudois/Waldenses and the early days 2×2 workers like brothers and sisters of the SAME Faith, Belief, and Family…. whom they have NEVER met each others but they are guided by the Holy Spirit to Carry on Jesus 2s2 apostolic ministry and the New Testament fellowship to the time of Jesus returns.
I did NOT post on the main CCF chat but on different places a few different places on the Vaudois/Waldense historical documents beliefs compare with the 2×2 workers, now all DELETED. Some were offended well, I say let the READERS make up their own minds and decisions on what to believe or NOT to believe.
Hi Nathan B- here is the link:
https://ex2x2.info/2022/05/19/is-it-true-lets-see/
Hi Louise, Thanks for the link…. Did you write that article or somebody wrote it and you believe it was correct understanding and explanation of Matthew 10.
I read that link and studied NOT too long ago, and found MANY misunderstanding of interpretations of Matthew 10 instructions Vs. the workers today going forth in Jesus apostolic ministry or the harvest field to the time of His returns.
Matthew 10 and Luke 10 mission instructions Jesus gave to the 12 and 70 apostles to go to the Children of Israel and He told them NOT to go to the Gentiles at this time. Why?
In Acts 4:19-26 Peter explained it was God who promised to the children that when the Messiah came he would give the Jews/children of Israel the FIRST opportunity to hear the gospel before the Gentiles nations. In Matthew 28 the GREAT Commission Jesus sent them to ALL of Gentiles nation with the gospel in Acts 2 and 10 and they continued to go forth through down the ages.
Jesus gave The 12 and 70 apostles, Paul, Stephen, and a few others power to heal because it was foretold that when the Messiah came He would show the people miracles, healing just like Moses did when God sent them to the children of Israel as their savior/redeemer. Jesus and the apostles performing miracles to prove to the Jews in their days He is the Anointed Savior/Redeemer and He had to show them through miracles/healing the same power as sign God had sent him just like He sent Moses to be the children of Israel.
In the Matthew 28 the Great Commission to the Gentiles nations, God did not promise the apostles/workers with miracles, healing with their preaching Jesus SAVES! those were the signs given to the Jews/children of Israel in Jesus and apostles days.
~~ There are MANY interesting lessons the workers today can learn from Matthew 10 like live in life of simplicity! Don’t possess or carry too MANY worldly belonging with them through their Itinerant life style.
I wish we have a place where I can explain many interesting lessons in Matthew 10 and Luke 10. The workers today and through down the ages are NOT to follow the 12, the 70 apostles Matthew 10 and Luke 10 instructions. Those instruction of miracles, healing, raising the dead were for the apostles in Jesus days when he sent them out specifically to the Jews and those miracles were God promised to them. However, God can heal people today!
By the way, Edward Cooney tried to heal one of the friends like Matthew 10 before the overseer, the workers and the friends in 1928…. He couldn’t do it because healing like Matthew 10 was fulfilled by Christ and the apostles already. Most believers today KNOW Jesus Christ is the anointed Messiah and Savior of mankind. God sees there is NO need to REPEAT signs, miracles, healing and raising the dead again.
Thanks, for letting me share what I have learned and studied…
Thanks for the time and effort to reply Nathan B, but we aren’t going to agree on this, God’s Word would have to change for my view to change, if you can show me clearly from the Bible that my study on this is incorrect then I will change my view.There is no indication from God’s Word that miracles was only for a certain time frame.
Kindly.
Louise
There is no doubt in my mind that if the ministry was from God that they would not preach a different gospel, which as Paul says, is no gospel at all.By adding their ministry and way of worship to salvation( they say one needs to hear the gospel through them and remain in their fellowship) aswell as adding conformation to outward appearance before someone can be baptized, they are preaching a different gospel. No matter what anyone has sacrificed, they still cannot make themselves part of God’s Salvation.They have been placed as a ministry on a pedastal, competing for the spot only reserved for God.Many friends have madea a idol out of the ministry, this is a great offense against God.
I do believe this is the root of the evil we see exposed now.
Louise, God has given you wisdom and discernment on these things. Thank you for sharing!
Thanks Brian, I am humbled that God can work through little me, all glory be to God now and forever!
Louise; You are correct. They do not preach what Jesus preached nor what the 12 preached. They do not preach to whom Jesus nor the 12 Preached.
The gospel they claim to preach is Not in God’s Word.
#1. Their Gospel is Not what Jesus preached to Nation of Israel: your King is here.
Acts 2:41 All who believed gospel to them as Jews; did apostles Doctrine :42 etc. :44-:45 and grab the Jewish “worship” :46. and this continues thru Acts 7:.
Acts 3: Where: :1 in God’s Temple – (4:1-3 place of Israel’s very government)
To who? :12 ye men of Israel. :13-:18 Government did what?
What was the solution :18-:20. That Government MUST believe and do
Then Acts 3:20 – :21 is what God in heaven would do for that very Government of Israel as had been promised to Israel through-out the O.T.. Again, that Government “would NOT”! :22- 26 is record of their history and God’s work.
#2. Their Gospel is Not Gospel The Risen Jesus Christ gave to Paul.
Ephesians 3:1-9 explains what God gave and is 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Oh, as we have experienced and heard of the great, deep abuse made much worse for victims by their very act of ignoring our heart is broken again!
Knowing, now, how rampant it is and also the deep cover-up is world wide: we are grateful for their very OWN action of excommunication of us.
This sent us to deeply study our Holy Bible and search God’s Word for His will and very mind. IT is a brutal journey. Thankful we had those who walked beside us; comforted and encouraged. We would like to communicate with you if possible.
We do NOT have a solution to fix the “Tradition of Men” made by Men and not according to God’s Word or example.Shadowshaper
Hello Astounded,
I hear you, yes I have experienced excommunication aswell, not pleasant but as you have experienced, it helped towards the goal of getting to know God and His Salvation and to disregard men’s traditions.
I give Wings permission to share my e mail address with you, thanks Wings.