In response to the avalanche of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) and adult Sexual Abuse (SA) disclosures since early 2023, various groups have been drafting and issuing policies and guidelines. The Australian and New Zealand overseers have even created a website with their documents including Worker Code of Conduct and Child Safe Policy. However other areas have not developed or issued any guidelines/policies, or are failing to adopt draft documents.
In December 2023, there was a Zoom call with the Arkansas Missouri Oklahoma Task Force and Craig Winquist, overseer of the region, to discuss draft guidelines for safe church practices. Jennifer Horton, worker in Oklahoma, was also present. The call was recorded with the consent of all who were present. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkiXL0EjSw
Starting at 32:20, Craig advised that he did not feel that there should be any formal policy.
The summarised questions/comments and Craig’s responses, are noted below:
Re Developing North Carolina Guidelines for Tri-state area
Craig Winquist Well I’m you know familiar at least in some ways with what we’re looking at here. I guess you know I raised up in some of our first conversations and that is you know it’s a matter whether we do anything or not really, and then if we do what do we do.
I know last year when this all started in the spring, I was under the impression that we probably could come up with something that would be helpful policy if you want to. I was really positive on that and I’ve talked to a lot of other people. I talked to Matt and he worked with Kurt; he was months into that with him but the more he got into it, you could say the less he felt good about it and I’m coming actually to kind of the very same conclusions. I just am not at peace with trying to institute a policy like this, and so it’s going to be a problem I know, but I obviously have to live with my own conscience and be at peace with what I feel I can do for all of us and so I don’t know where to go from here for everyone.
I know that a lot of people feel if we don’t have policy that somehow we’re abandoning the whole thing on CSA and SA and I don’t feel it has to be that way at all, but I don’t see any way to be able to push this forward and impose it on people that I know are unwilling for that and don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t see it as creating unity. I think there has to be some other way, and I don’t know. It’s just I’m just speaking from my heart. I noticed that in the task force that those most of the people involved were all pro policy and there was no one, as far as I can tell, that really attempted to find some other route or suggest any other thing. So I don’t feel that we’ve had really a lot of balance along that line either.
We’re pretty far into the process and the reason we are is because I wanted to be fair and I want to listen to the different points of view, but at the same time I have to do what I feel is right and I’ve prayed about it, thought about it, and it’s no simple process at all.
Re: If there isn’t a policy, how would actions be communicated?
Craig Winquist Well I don’t know just what the wording would look like exactly. The only thing I know is that when these cases arise that we obviously want to, I mean we’re just going to do what has been said. We’re going to listen to the victims, the accusations, the process be a lot the same in terms of people have to step aside from their meeting. We’ll have to look at that in that way. So what we practice I don’t think could be in a lot of ways different from policy, but I don’t see any way of being able to create some kind of enforcement mechanism. I feel it really is something that we need to have the direction and guidance of God and of the spirit in a lot of these situations. I don’t see any kind of human algorithm or process that really does that. But, that doesn’t mean that we’re going to drop that, ignore that, or go around it in some way.
Re: How would ‘Spirit led decisions’ be different to what has happened in the past?
Craig Winquist Well I think there’s a number of things that can do that because obviously when people are going to come forward it’s going to occur in a certain area. It’s going to be a certain family, it’s going to be a certain Church, so our level of awareness of what’s taking place is a whole different world of understanding at this point in time. So the church isn’t going to drop it and we’re not going to drop it in that sense either.
What we’ve already done in the state is, when these cases have come up and they’re all old cases, that we’ve asked those people not to be in the meetings presently and that is kind of revolutionary at least in some areas anyway.
I’m just saying things here but I mean it’s going to involve the church. I think the church obviously has an interest in what takes place and so you know we’re not going to do something that the church isn’t happy with either. so I think there’s a number of people involved that would make sure the outcomes are not going to look in the future like they maybe have in the past, but until you actually have that happen, I don’t know how to how to test that really.
Re: (1) There are many people (perhaps 50% in the Tri-state area) who are unaware of the Dean Bruer case, and not aware that there are already 670 known abusers and thousands of cases, so it isn’t being honest if everyone doesn’t know how bad it is.
(2) Failing to have a policy is not bring unity.
(3) There are many guidelines in the Epistles that have been followed, and many sanctions for breach of other unwritten moral policies, so why is there a struggle to deal with the criminal matters of CSA and SA.
Craig Winquist What I’m saying is that dealing with it doesn’t necessarily mean writing North Carolina policy. Obviously there’s a lot of things that have happened that have caused people to lose confidence in the workers or their judgment or however you want to put it, so you want to turn to some other means to find something you think is fair or right. I understand that. I just am not convinced that’s what God wants us to do. I don’t see any reason why we can’t just handle that because we just want to do the right thing.
Re: Predators taken out of the meeting presently. What happens after presently?
Craig Winquist Well I think that would have to work with the local churches involved in that decision about what they would do, what they feel about the person and yeah I don’t know, that would have to be on the ground at the time.
Re: As a leader, you need to lead, yet you don’t want to upset people.
Craig Winquist I can’t just stand here and ad lib that kind of answer. I mean it’s obviously a serious consideration about what that means and I can only do what I feel comfortable with. My decisions that I’m making, I find difficult from two points of view. I know I’m going to be making some people unhappy and it doesn’t matter what I choose, that’s simply not a possibility, especially the situation we’re in now. There isn’t any easy way forward; if it was we’d all be headed there.
All I can do is what I feel in my own heart is really the right thing to do before God. That’s I guess the best I know how to answer your particular question. I can’t really go into the details about how people are going to take that. Everyone’s going to have their own impression about whether that’s good, bad or indifferent, but I don’t know what will happen until you actually have the case. I haven’t had any particular recent case of CSA, I don’t know of anything that’s real current along that line.
Re: What if our local church chooses to follow the North Carolina Policy?
Craig Winquist I haven’t really thought a lot about that. I think in general, the churches are going to be having to make some of these decisions on their own about what they’re what they’re comfortable with.
Re: Concern that workers aren’t following I Corinthians 5. Being spirit led, yet countless overseers across the country are reacting differently.
Well at least I’ve told you a little bit about how I feel and my concerns. I realize that leaves a lot of question marks and I’m not surprised. We will keep in touch with people. I’ll be talking with our staff and obviously we’ve got some things that we need to discuss and talk about. We hope we can put something out that you’ll be able to understand a little bit better maybe what where we’re coming from, but it’s not something I can do just impromptu really like this. I do feel it’s just fair that at least I let you know kind of where I’m coming from and I’ve been listening to everyone else for a long time. I think I know where everyone else is coming from and so we do love you, we care for you, we care for our children, and we want to do what is right and good for them and for us and for the future and of course we obviously want God involved as well and I think everyone does as well. This isn’t the end of our conversation but we’ll just keep in touch.
Re: How can trust be restore when it has been violated / destroyed? It won’t come back unless we see something visible. We can’t keep doing the same things we have done for 75 years.
Jennifer Horton I just wanted to say that in the field where I was earlier this year the last field where I was in we had a situation of CSA and it was handled and the person is not in meetings anymore and the people who went to that meeting are feeling trust, trustworthy about those decisions and things are calm in Oklahoma. I think that he was the only perpetrator that we have in Oklahoma actually but I’m just saying that this is a case that was handled and it’s been since the Dean Brewer case and people are aware of what’s happened and it was taken care of. That was without a policy.
Re: How would convention ground owners in another state know that the person should not attend?
Jennifer Horton Well he’s been instructed and he understands that he’s not to be at any convention not to be at any gospel meeting and not to be at any special meeting he’s very well aware of his parameters.
Re: That person visited out-of state as his situation wasn’t communicated/known. Would this have been known at all, but for the disclosures since Dean Bruer?
Jennifer Horton It’s correct that we have known about it and we did what we could and it’s been in the court system and the courts have been handling it since it happened. It was not the Dean Bruer that brought it to light, it was we were aware of it and it’s been in the court system.
Re: How can we trust predators to follow recommendations from the workers when we know they don’t care about safety standards?
Jennifer Horton I felt like it’s worked well in Oklahoma. He doesn’t come to Convention anymore and he doesn’t come to Sunday morning meeting anymore and he doesn’t come to special meeting or gospel meeting anymore.
Re: Is there blind faith that he will do the right thing or does everyone know about him?
Jennifer Horton He’s well known in Oklahoma. He would he would understand that everybody knows who he is.
Re: He knows that people in other states don’t know about him, so what is there to stop him turning up there?
Jennifer Horton Yeah might be a situation of where there should be more communication but if the law doesn’t lock him up then we can’t really control him as far as where he goes and what he does so it would come down to a communication really more than a policy.
Re: Why can’t we have a simple protocol to protect people?
Jennifer Horton All those things were done like everything that was in the protocol or in the policy or whatever were done, and people did their reporting and it was reported to the workers it was reported to the elders they were all involved. Everyone knew about it, then a letter was sent out to the whole state saying this person is no longer going to be, this has been a problem and he’s no longer going to be at convention, special meeting, whatever, so it follows even the policy of those who need to know and then that would maybe be a question as to how many need to know. So maybe that’s where a little bit of the problem comes in, is in knowing how many people need to know, but as far as how the thing was handled, it just it was handled according basically to the policy guidelines that we’ve been studying but we didn’t have a policy about it we just understood that that was the right thing to do and so that’s what we did.
In March 2024, some of the team had a meeting to discuss the creation, operation and ending of the Taskforce on that call with Craig and workers. The video starts at 1:38:40
https://youtu.be/hHkiXL0EjSw?si=gl3yMAFl2_B89z7A&t=5920
They recalled early optimism that Craig supported the creation of a policy, and his comments: “…he said I think everyone will have a policy, it’ll either be one that the workers and people have worked out together or if that doesn’t happen people will form their own policy. He said he was convinced that everyone would have a policy”.
One day he said he had read all of the proposed policies that he knew about and he thought he liked the North Carolina policy the best, and Texas seemed to have more pages about how to get predators back in the meeting than it does on helping victims and he didn’t like that.
Members noted that at a meeting that happened in December, where Craig was going to provide his thoughts, there was only one thing that happened between Thanksgiving and that and that was the Tennessee special meetings that Craig attended and there were several overseers there. Whatever happened in Tennessee stopped the progress. Within a week our policy, Minnesota-Iowa was stopped and Southwest was stopped and you might say it was very coordinated on how the policy stopped. What did stay intact was Texas and North Carolina.
It was noted that overseers have access to the list of ~750 alleged perpetrators, but that information has not been provided to elders or to sister workers. There are apparently 10-12 names in the Tri-state area, yet Jennifer Horton claimed that there were only 2 cases in the area: one supposedly unfounded, and the other being dealt with by another state. That lack of disclosure, and lack of removal of those people from meetings, does not show proper honesty.
WINGS commends the task force for their work and keen moral clarity.
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Craig Winquest said, “I know last year when this all started in the spring, I was under the impression that we probably could come up with something that would be helpful policy if you want to”.
First of all “this all started “ (the sexual abuses) when the group was formed by William Irvine. The veil was finally lifted last spring. There are women who are in their 90s now and they tell of being sexually assaulted by workers when they were young. This didn’t start last spring!
Craig says, “I was really positive on that and I’ve talked to a lot of other people. I talked to Matt and he worked with Kurt; he was months into that with him but the more he got into it, you could say the less he felt good about it and I’m coming actually to kind of the very same conclusions. I just am not at peace with trying to institute a policy like this, and so it’s going to be a problem I know”.
“The more he got into it “. Getting knowledge of the sexual abuse, the history of the sexual assaults and who is responsible for the sexual assaults, yes it makes the leadership very nervous because they have been involved with these abuses directly or indirectly through the cover up of the sexual abuses.
Not wanting any policy means that you don’t need to call out your fellow workers who you know have committed crimes because there’s no policy in place to do so.
I know Craig Winquist and I used to think he was a good guy and a man of Integrity. Now, it’s obvious he has no moral compass and he doesn’t have any decency or empathy for sexual abuse victims. Instead of being a man of God, these leaders have chosen to use their power and influence, going in the opposite direction. It is sickening to see them being so weak, corrupt and foolish. It is sad and shameful and even more sickening that they have so many people still putting up with this nonsense and follow along with these corrupt people.
The overseers must have been given some new “you will not accept guidelines unless they are very scriptural” edict from the top. Because, many people/professionals over many months spent incredible time and effort researching and compiling information on how to help and deal with predators. The guidelines were for the congregation as protection against the ministry & the elder’s (which a HUGE majority were former workers), and the handful of other categories. It was NOT a document that ANY minister should have had any say in. We don’t allow a naughty child to choose their punishment! The problem is, the ministry doesn’t even know what the scriptures say about how to deal with criminals, and vile individuals, or they would have accepted the Washington State Guidelines as written. These overseers and workers don’t follow the Bible, so how are we to be protected? Which verses were going through their minds while they were raping and molesting our children, teens, women, or wives?? Destroying their victims futures…for the high of “I have them completely under my control”. Like, what human, who claims to be a servant of God, can abide by allowing that? It’s simple. They aren’t servants of the God of Heaven. People better wake up, and get their children, teens, women OUT while they can, because the fewer they have to choose from, the more likely YOUR child or grandchild will be their next target!!!
This development is incredibly disappointing. It is reverting back to the old ways which has been dangerous for children for a century.
It reminds me of the Leonard Cohen song “The Future” line that says “it’s over, it ain’t going any further”. Child safety progress is over.
The small minded hardliners and system loyalists have won. Their excuse is the lack of prescriptive scripture. They lack sufficient intelligence to understand scriptural principles which is why they need prescriptive direction, ie word for word biblical rules . The guidelines being developed all over the world are perfectly aligned with scriptural principles but since the loud cognitively impaired folks can’t grasp the principles, they have successfully quashed it.
Double up your own child protection. The safest course for parents now is to take your children out of gatherings: particularly conventions, special meetings, social gatherings, and keep the workers out of staying in your homes if you have children. Responsible parents now have to take these drastic steps if they want to protect their kids. The leadership takes no responsibility, and worse, they are actively bringing predators back into the meetings, and sorry, that is a fact. I take no pleasure in writing this.
NnThey all talk a lot without saying anything useful. Just squirmed and wriggle around without committing to anything. What is so hard about doing the right thing?? Craig says he wants to do what God wants, but who is he afraid of?? Obviously not afraid of God, or he would be going after every pedophile and rapist that is known. Instead he made an elder of The Monster Ira Hobbs and put meeting in his home, (who is a well-known 90yr old pedophile and rapist) Try to tell me that he was led by the Spirit of God in doing that, you can’t convince me in a 100yrs! I tell who he and a lot of the workers are afraid of, the so called overseers on top of the hierarchy of all so called overseers! I haven’t lived 75yrs and having seen lying and deception in the religion that I grew up in from 4-5yrs old til I was in my late teens, to not be able to see those fruits when I see them, and I see plainly, alot of those fruits in this current corruption! May God help us, and help and guide the FBI in their search of all the criminals in our midst, and save us from the deceptions of the guilty, and bring justice to all!
Honesty and integrity? These are issues of moral behavior and legal crimes. The ministry would have you
believe that they are innocent of any wrong doing. For 4 decades that I know those in the fellowship have been
looking for a correction and change. No change is coming, if they wait long enough it will all go away and everything will be the same.
How many men and women are they covering for? It appears the practices of abuse have been there since the foundation of the church. Thus the doctrine of exclusivity was established and the brainwashing began. This is not to say that all are evil but all have accepted the doctrine of a few – all become evil by association.
I know that sounds harsh. Matthew 18:6, Christ is very explicit about caring and loving the children. Romans 8 is a clear picture of how are life can be. The Corinthian church was admonished for their life choices and Paul told them to flee from evil. Since the very beginning man has been evil, thus Christ died to release us from our sins. That does not mean to keep wallowing in the same cesspool.
Our children are too precious to continue exposing them to the evil and hateful ways of the ministry. When we left the fellowship I had to ask my family for forgiveness.
These men will not change they are to self righteous- why they will not accept the love and freedom of Christ I do not know. I will continue to pray for honest ministries and those who love Christ.
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The workers have never had a problem promulgating guidelines for the fellowship. One that stands out is with regard to divorce and remarriage, which was/is hardly a spirit-led edict. If the fear is having to admit to some level of organization that goes against representations to the contrary, let’s just get real. The recent overseer meeting in Nashville is a direct contradiction to that fallacy, as are many other indicia of “corporateness” that are routinely observed and displayed.
a quick count has Craig saying “I” 43 times. So much for being Spirit led.
Wow!! Astounding at the 1hour 10 min mark when someone crying says “I’ve felt no love from the ministry” not ONE WORKER on the call apologized or offered care. We are dealing with people that do not have the heart of Jesus
I listened to the recording of the discussions on YouTube. Thank you very much to the task force for your openness and transparency in posting the recording for others to hear.
The task force members on the call presented well-thought-through proposals, and asked clear, respectful and incisive questions. Craig Winquist joined the call 35 minutes late (because he was having supper…), then immediately dismissed the group’s proposals, and addressed their concerns only in the most vague and self-referential way.
How can this man possibly be considered a leader or decision-maker, by anyone? Selkie Hope spoke so eloquently around the 54:30 mark in the recording about true leadership qualities. These qualities are not displayed at all by the fellowship’s “leaders” on the call.
In refusing to take any clear course of action, Mr Winquist says, “At least I’ve told you a little bit about how I feel and my concerns. … We will keep in touch with people…. This isn’t the end of our conversation but we’ll just keep in touch.” Anyone who has ever been employed recognizes this as a non-action kick-the-can statement from “management” who intends to do absolutely nothing different. We are now more than a year into a major crisis in our fellowship, with a problem that has devastated thousands of lives. Anyone who says the best approach is to take no correcting action and to “just keep in touch” is in no way fit to be in a “leadership” role.
So again, why is this man (and others like him) considered a leader, with control over others? Why is his opinion sought, if all he’s going to do is make vague statements and stall? Whose community is this? Is it Mr Winquist’s to do with as he will? Can the people in this Tri-State area not seek God’s guidance themselves for how to handle things in their meetings and fellowship? Would this not be more biblical and sensible?
One of the great things about Jesus’ teachings is that he frequently taught about the importance of the greater principle. This is a lesson lost on Winquist and the hardliners who live by prescriptive rules.
To wit, the pushback that Winquist would be facing as he struggles with “unity” is that the hardline forces resist anything that appears to be organizational. “We are a family, not a religious organization like the false churches”. That concept is life and death with these folks, so much so that it supersedes the safety of children and compassion toward victims. It is a complete Pharisee mentality. I probably don’t need to give examples of the teachings of the greater principle but 3 examples are the disciples picking corn on the Sabbath to survive, Jesus healing on the Sabbath, and the man who neglected the welfare of his parents with the excuse of giving to the church. Resting on the Sabbath and giving to the church are all good, but survival, healing and taking care of vulnerable people are the greater principle. This is lost on the hardliners and Winquist, who is probably smart enough to understand this but has sold his soul to the Pharisees and dinner with them.
If there was ever proof that the ministry group and a significant portion of the Friends have fallen into Phariseeism, it is right there on that YouTube video.
This has been tangentially visible for years, but now it is right out in the open.
Watchman: How very true! It cuts us to the very core! This even when we have been released from this culture for over 10 yrs. Little did we know or understand this “Phariseeism”. So very little did we understand; that THAT night he was a tag-along with the Big Cheese at our Dinning-Room Table; both without their Bibles and Without the Holy Spirit explained to US our Salvation had NOTHING to do with the very life Blood of Jesus! Our ‘salvation’ was only because we had believed in their Ministry; Alone. We had never heard such a ‘doctrine’! NOT in 70 years!
And because our realizing and in “testimonies” we had been expressing our grateful hearts to God for the blood of Jesus. Our little – close, church group were complaining because it made them uncomfortable when we talked about the ‘Blood of Jesus’ being our redeemer! SO – our sentence was: – we could not take part!
We have studied deeply and constantly – God’s very Word since that time. Paul explains in Ephesians 6:11 – :18 THAT we must put-on the ‘whole Armour of God’ to withstand the “wiles of the devil”. AND the #1. ‘helmet of salvation #2. the sword of the Spirit = the very Word of God!
In our deep studies, we read of Jesus speaking with the Pharisees(as the very government of Israel) as they question and accuse Jesus in Matthew 21:42 – :43. Jesus’ response them: Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the ‘builders rejected, the same is become the “head of the corner”……….. :43 Therefore I say unto you, “”The “Kingdom of God” shall be taken from you —– WOW! and THAT Happened! Our Bibles record that very plainly! AS Jesus warned that government of Israel in Matthew 12:31 – :32 about ‘blasphemy against the Holy Spirit’ shall never be forgiven: Acts 6:9 thru 7:60 records the very Supreme Court of Israel with their very own hands stoned Stephen and sealed their own fate!
What a very fitting comparison you have made with Craig eating with the Pharisees: before lowering himself to this dastardly deed. ALL the while knowing “full well” the Ira Hobbs twisted – criminal – inhuman deed and ALL the great “nothing” those Pharisees did! While in the “Holy Spirit”!!!
I don’t know Craig, but based on some things I read, I had high hopes that he would be one that would make a difference in the fight against CSA.
Thanks to all in the task force for everything you’ve put into this issue. I watched all the video, and shared your disappointment in the direction that Craig seems to be heading.
It was also disappointing that he put the stop on a newsletter.
Not sure how “Spirit-Led” 2.0 will be any better than the original version, that has been an abject failure for the past 100+ years.
I suppose at least something is being done, in contrast to the communication vacuum here in the uk.
Maybe now that convention season has finished, attention will turn to getting a long awaited policy out.
There seems to be great resistance in the overseers to put that word ‘tolerance’ into the Zero Tolerance Policy. They seem to be reserving that word ‘tolerance’ for another section or paragraph or clause in the religion’s doctrine.
The islands downunder have been willing to put those three words together. Otherwise, it seems elsewhere that Zero Policy is what will remain as the doctrine.
But I also did see some reasonable amount of consideration from a few leaders in the early stages of this revelation of dark corners in the inner sanctums of the enterprise. But somewhere along the line there seemed to be some abracadabra that happened – and now there seems to be a message of a different form coming out of the top hat of the ministry. Most interesting. Did they pull a rabbit out of the top hat and watched people’s glee … then more rabbits started popping up they didn’t realize? And now the exercise is trying to keep the rabbits in the hat for posterity’s sake?
And as far as the alternative of being led by the spirit? I give them all the benefit of the doubt and perceive it is all being very much led by the spirits. The spirit of anti-care for the victims. The spirit of anti-humility to step down from their pinnacle of religious enterprise pride and help out and admit they need to change their ways. The spirit of anti-restoration of the wounded. The spirit of anti-interest in the abused and anti-information about the enterprising individuals in the ministry and elders.
Ah yes – so many spirits. Maybe they all can go back to their sermon notes over the years and revisit the number of times they admonished the people to possess the spirit of Christ. Interesting that Spirit has become of little interest to the power brokers in this ministry. For some reason, the wind has shifted. Is anyone watching? Keep your eye on the wind in the world. The answer my friend, may be blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind.
….I know there is at least one commenter on Wings here that does not care for me mentioning music that does not fit their view of what the gospel is …but may I suggest people listen to this one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MMFj8uDubsE
Then maybe I also suggest people start hunkering down in the white, clean pages at the back of their bible. The white pages with dark writings.
UKer, good point about “Spirit-led”. Spirit-led got us thousands of crime victims and untold thousands of abuse victims where the abuse falls short of criminal, but abuse nevertheless.
Spirit-led, by observation of the past, means nothing more than “I will do what I feel is right”. No consideration for Christ principles, virtues, compassion, truth or even basic justice. Just what feels right, and that is why manipulation and dishonesty is so rampant. A leader/worker/overseer can do whatever they want and claim it was the Spirit leading them. This is terribly dangerous.
I plead with parents once again: double your vigilance to protect your kids. The danger is real as there is nothing to stop the predators in the group, nothing but you.
Using “Spirit-led” in a dishonest way may also put a person at risk of blasphemy. I hesitate to comment on something so eternally serious, as I don’t have any special expertise on interpreting these ideas, but here’s the clearest statement on blasphemy I know of in the Bible, recorded as being the words of Jesus, from Matthew 12: 31-32:
“And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
“Spirit-led, by observation of the past, means nothing more than “I will do what I feel is right”. No consideration for Christ principles, virtues, compassion, truth or even basic justice. Just what feels right, and that is why manipulation and dishonesty is so rampant. A leader/worker/overseer can do whatever they want and claim it was the Spirit leading them. This is terribly dangerous.”
Exactly. Thanks Watchman for expressing it better than I ever could.
So Craig, let me summarize what you are basically saying…
If you support instituting a policy, you are going to upset those who believe there should be no documents at all for the church you refer to as “The Truth”. Understandable, because you have preached all along that the absence of any documents proves that you only follow the Bible (it does not), so the laity has been convinced that documents are “wrong”. Also understandable, because the presence of such a document would lend weight to the argument that we actually do have a “organization”, though the ministry continues to push back against this concept, preferring to be vague by saying “we are organized like a family is organized, but we are not an organization.” And being an organization would set it up for potential lawsuits, so the accumulated funds that you have and keep separate among the different territories would be put at risk. Lastly, it might upset the uber overseers for all of the above reasons. (You should note that a policy as such has nothing to do with doctrine, and it can be aligned with biblical principles,, so it would not actually contradict what you have been preaching all along, so you are seeing that wrong.)
If you decide to not institute a policy, you will upset the multitude of people that are calling for such a policy because they recognize the need to hold leadership and perpetrators accountable and to protect the vulnerable and support victims (instead of just trusting that they will be “led by the Spirit”, because they know that that has not worked for the last 100+ years).
So instead you choose to do nothing, and hope that it will die down. You will instead try to just keep doing what you have been doing in terms of handling these issues, which has been an abject failure and gotten you to this point in time.
Craig, there are an awful lot of “I’s” in your discourse. You state “I obviously have to live with my own conscience and be at peace with what I feel I can do for all of us and so I do not know where to go from here for everyone.”
Do you consider yourself a leader? Whether in-state appointed, or appointed by the upper hierarchy, you are in the position of being a “overseer”, and therefore in the position of being a leader. All of the “I’s” would suggest that you acknowledge this. However, responses such as you gave are not leadership.
Leaders recognize that they cannot please everyone, but leaders commit to doing what is right, and commitment to a clear plan forward with the reasons stated for commitment to the plan will demonstrate leadership. So there are those that would push back against a policy. How about firmly stating that a policy is not doctrine, but that a policy acknowledges and supports victims, protects the vulnerable, standardizes responses to infractions/crimes, and holds both perpetrators and leadership accountable to the body at large? Worried about your funds being at risk? That ship has already sailed… But a policy might help protect them in the future. If you’re trying to please everyone (in the name of “unity”), you’ll please no one (i.e. there will neve be unity). Better to do what is right. Do you think Jesus brought unity? (“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.”)
What happened to showing love, especially for victims past and present?
What happened to protecting the vulnerable?
What happened to “stand for what is right , even if it’s difficult”?
If the Spirit is not moving you to this, perhaps you need to check that Spirit…everything you state seems to imply a fear of man for either doing or not doing something…no wonder you are not at peace. Who are you serving?
What are you afraid of? The uber overseers? Losing the funds? Losing your position as overseer? Losing your position as a worker? Losing the support of the “privileged Friends”? Going to jail?
Are you afraid of what may await you in eternity?
Remember the Bible account of the man given one talent who hid it away out of fear. He lost everything as a result of doing nothing…
This really is not that difficult…talk about “straining at a gnat.”
Be victim centric.
Protect the vulnerable.
Make Zero tolerance truly Zero tolerance.
Show repentance through your actions.
Lead if you’re going to be a leader. Stand for what is right. And if it’s not clear what is right, you should not be a leader.
None of that goes against scripture.
Why does it seem that you are all flogging a dead horse?
No “policy” or rules are going to create any kind of real change, the foundation is not there.
The hierarchical structure of this organization works for those at the top only. Just as it does for any “worldly” organization or political faction.
Now that we are being flooded with light, and Christ consciousness is returning to the planet, the light is illuminating a lot of darkness for all to see.
From a bird’s eye view: you want things to be different and you are trying to create change. It isn’t going to happen. No amount of stonewalling and beating around the bush seems to make some people able to see that. Maybe the best way to create change is to walk away from William Irvine’s “grand experiment”?
Why wouldn’t you routinely gather a group of beloved friends and discuss for an hour or two the Bible that you cherish; have an utterly delicious potluck dinner; perhaps have that guy with the guitar bring it with him and you could all sing and be in JOY, rather than fear?
Doesn’t this seem more in keeping with reflecting the glory of God?
Why has everyone lost the ability to follow their intuition? To feel in their body when danger lurks? It’s there for your guidance. Your inner knowing which you can translate as the voice of God.
Banish “cult speak” and speaking in medieval English. Why wouldn’t you want to live in love and joy and service to others as a mirror of a loving God, instead of living in fear?
Where is the charity? Where is the burgeoning love? Why instead, is there obligation and guilt and shame? Punishment for cutting hair? Make a list of ridiculous rules, I dare you, because there are lots of them. Then ask yourself why they exist.
When I was quite young and had already professed (out of fear), I began to ask questions of my parents, grandparents and workers regarding things that I did not understand. When no answers were ever forthcoming, at the early age of 12, I was eventually labeled “insolent”.
The level of brainwashing I see is unbelievable. The crazy amount of silly rules that have nothing to do with what is in your heart or your good works is astonishing. The astounding amount of CSA as well as the business model of money laundering and tax evasion is also mind boggling.
If you’ve lost the ability to follow your intuition, you might want to at least adopt my life long motto: QUESTION EVERYTHING
CWS
I agree with almost all of what you wrote and how you are articulating this matter in the church.
But I disagree to your first sentence about it being a ‘dead’ horse. I think it is quite ‘alive’ and ‘well’. Whatever alive and well might mean to different folks. It just may be a horse of a different colour than what people perceive.
And after reading some of the history, I personally have become okay with Irvine’s experiment. And have become okay with his sidekick Ed Cooney. From what I see, those two guys were booted from the experiment in the 20’s and 30’s when it started to morph into an enterprise that was desiring control over people’s hearts and minds. And big money was at stake. And there are no allegations (at least recorded) that they were desiring control over children’s bodies, nor covering for those that did.
So I am okay with those two guys and the rise of this church. But those that say this particular religion/church started with Jesus when he was a man on the earth and it was not Willie, those I believe bought a lie and then proceeded to sell it. All religious enterprise needs to buy into and sell a couple certain lies that it can function to control people. Without these certain lies, they cannot buy nor can they sell their ‘truth’. Or someone’s truth.
You speak of Christ’s consciousness returning to the planet. I am right there with you. From what I see it is quite amazing. I wondered if there was another one that went/goes to meeting that perceives this. And I don’t mean just within this organisation. Not sure whether you go to meeting or not. Doesn’t matter to me. Belonging to the group and the gift it offered was the first lie that started to shut down people’s minds, extinguished their intuition, took away most of their vision, convinced them they need not ask and seek and knock, and above all – convinced them that the words recorded of Jesus were just a lie. Namely, ‘the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth’. Another close runner up on what religious enterprise convinces people was just a lie? Jesus words when He said “the true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth”. The voice within the people was encouraged as long as it conformed to the strategy of the enterprise. Otherwise, the people were convinced that voice was of ‘self’ and just ‘human reasoning’. I too was sailing in that ship on the sea for the first 55 years of my life. Call me a slow learner ….about all the ships in/on the sea.
But most of the church just started on a journey in March 2023. Not many I see being awakened from their slumber. They seem to be tapping the snooze button. They cherish the ‘rest’ the organization offers. The organization masks the fears that are building blocks laid right on their foundation of Christ. They are not realizing the rivers and fountains that at one time provided a certain amount of living water …are slowly turning to blood. What is in the cup is changing slowly and most do not perceive. They are slowly becoming inebriated – and care not of what they might be drinking. ‘No way! I’m not schtoned!’ They care not that some of the wedding party are going home. Just as long as there is more to drink and ‘friends’ to drink with.
In case you are wondering, I still go to fellowship meeting. My grandchildren are 6th gen to go to meeting. I see there is a realization happening in the church – people are making a choice of what they want their family to be. And people are deciding who they want their brothers and sisters to be. And who they want their father to be. Some are digging for answers because they are starting to see things; others have no interest in seeing anything more than what some men have convinced them of. Sometimes we find the cost of not asking enough questions. We were all told in so many words; ‘don’t look a gift horse in the mouth!’ The horse was free, and we liked the price.
Here is a question for people! What does it mean when prophecy says the sickle was thrust in and gathered the clusters of the vine of the earth? People can ask themselves that question if they dare!
I find a need to ask questions also. I am fine with people calling me insolent to the forces and motives of religious enterprise. It looks like CSA will have to remain though as part of the fabric of the enterprise – with or without policy. They see what they want to see. And the remainder of their followers? They see what they were told to see. I am not discrediting the policy – I just think it will be but window dressing to the enterprise – but as the days go by, it is looking like protection of the children is becoming a harder sell anyways. To me, there is not much point in asking more questions of those that don’t like being questioned. Their pride has stated their answer. It looks like someone has made their bed – with them still lying in it.
I’m out Mark and this gives me a broader view and different perspective than if I were in.
I should have perhaps said “christed consciousness” because I did not mean Christ’s consciousness as you took it. Jesus was an ascended master but that was not even his name really as the letter “J” didn’t even exist til recently in the long view of time.
Also, “flogging a dead horse” simply means that nothing is going to change. It will never get up and run. Thus, it simply means futility. You are complicating things.
okay CWS – understand more of where you coming from.
And yes, I may be over complicating things. I think there may be many over simplifying things also.
to the task force:
Please, for the sake of yourselves, your families, and everyone whom you care about, listen to the direction of the Holy Spirit. (It’s obvious the workers aren’t following the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit.) If it were up to me, I would go ahead and implement the policy. Are you serving God, or are you serving men who only serve themselves? I wonder what Craig is afraid of to not want what is so obviously right. “Do not fear to follow JESUS, HE will lead you safely through every dark and dreary valley, and your failing strength renew.”
My prayer is that you will stand firm in what is right, and don’t back down from flawed, broken human beings.