The site https://ausnzinfo.com is intended to provide information and support in relation to child safety.
“Child safety is of utmost importance to us. This site has been created as part of our commitment to keeping children safe in our fellowship. It will be regularly checked and updated with resources and information for survivors, supporters, parents and all those who share our responsibility and vision for zero-harm to children. We encourage all visitors to check back frequently for new content and updates.”
The site was set up and will be maintained by (anonymous) members of the overseers’ advisory group. It is signed by the overseers of Australia and New Zealand: Malcolm Clapham, Graeme Dalton, Wayne Dean, Trevor Joll, Alan Mitchell, Stephen Thorpe.
The primary sections are:
Apology
Latest Update
Documents
Support
Resources
Educational
About
Home
It mentions ‘our fellowship’ but doesn’t directly indentify as relating solely to the Friends and Workers.
It appears to be limited to Australia and New Zealand, as there is no reference to overseas victims, including in countries where Australia or New Zealand have leadership.
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I would like to hear more about the abuse happening in the Atlantic provinces and in Canada. Is there an email where I can look? Also about helping with financial help for victims in this area. Thank you
Our family applauds the efforts of the overseers of Australia & New Zealand for:
Recognizing this as an issue and working to educate and inform the friends so our children are safe
Apologizing to those harmed (I’m not aware of anywhere else in the world that’s done this?)
Providing a united approach so offenders can’t just move around unchecked. For those in other locations around the world, Australia and New Zealand are about the size of continental USA, with 4 time zones and 6 overseers.
On the surface it does appear this way, @Thank you, I agree.
Someone closer to the situation might be able and willing to provide more insight into why and how this website got established. It’s been suggested that the website is at least in part an attempt to qualify for the Australian National Redress Scheme for children who were sexually abused in Australian institutions https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/).
In order to qualify, an institution (e.g. a church or religious group) needs to have some official presence, and a website might be one way to partially address this requirement.
interesting observation Observer. Something I did not think about.
We will come to know if the thought and intent of their hearts was to offload the help for the abused onto the government. In other words, “Go over there and they will help you!”
I would say if they continue being the Jetson Ministry with no inclination to help the victims from the hidden treasury, it will be a dead giveaway as to the thoughts and intent of their heart.
It is interesting to see the public relations (PR) that is obvious in the apology letter and slick website that is being utilized, and is so far from the usual church spin. It would be interesting to know that cost for the PR firm that did the background work here.
It will also be interesting to see if known paedophile sympathizers will be freely excepted, or paedophiles themselves will be introduced back into “the fold” as they have been in the USA after their exploits have been uncovered. While this latest PR move looks good, as the saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.
The culture in the group runs very deep. That is what is in need of change. Just in the last week there was a post on Wings For Truth, ““New Zealand Woman speaks of sexual violence she faced in Two by Twos”. That post showed that the culture there was no different than the culture of that found within the group in the USA. This latest website looks good but it seems to be smoke and mirrors and nothing more.
Use your imagination.
This website states that the “church” now has a zero tolerance policy. It notes:
This is saying that there is zero tolerance for sex abuse and also for covering up sex abuse. This would eliminate a lot of workers from “going forth” if these words have any meaning, because there is many, many workers that have known of sex abuse and stayed silent, when they should have stood up and stopped sexual abuses.
It’s very doubtful these zero tolerance words have any meaning. Words are just that, words. Zero tolerance is a very sharp edge. That means there’s no wiggle room. Zero means none. If the overseers say, zero tolerance, and don’t carry through with their pledge, they are liars.
Most likely, that is what you have with this “zero tolerance policy”. Because if the workers that didn’t lend a voice to past victims that they knew about and were let go, the workers ranks would be significantly diminished. And, they can’t have that. So, yes these zero tolerance words are just words and the overseers are liars.
Very recently there have been three new articles about New Zealand and Australia and the ongoing sexual abuses taking place there. People have responded with: ““We have clearly communicated our zero-tolerance policy for harm against anyone in our fellowship”
This is why words mean nothing at this point. There ARE alleged perpetrators attending meeting still, that the workers ARE aware of.
It’s nice they give the ABC a run down, but where is the communication that was promised to everyone in the church? I believe last comms from the AG and Overseers was October last year.
Words, words, words”.
Another replied: “Yep, 100% all valid points. I’m squinting really hard and can see zero care for survivors”.
Someone else said: “ok friends, I know we’re all becoming accustomed to abuse in this fellowship and probably feels like what more can be said.
Please say, do something, this is life shattering, criminal, horrendous”.
Yes it does look like someone (the overseers?) paid good money to a professional firm to dress this sexual abuse situation up to make it look like someone is doing something about it. Obviously that is not the case. People who are there tell a different story.
The ship is still steaming in the direction it always has. It doesn’t matter if there are icebergs everywhere. If you don’t look for them, you won’t see them. The sexual molesters are still allowed to freely be on board. Full steam ahead! Just listen to the (overseer) ship’s captain, and you can feel safe.
Will anyone give me a little space here to be the devil’s advocate? I know what you all think about the devil and that you all stay well clear of him. Whomsoever him is. Some beast way over there….but not here, right? So likely you will stay clear of this writing if I say I am playing devil’s advocate. One less thing for me to worry about. I know this may not be the place for it, but I think Wings has provided some latitude for opposing views. If you don’t see this writing, you will know without a shadow of a doubt they did not approve.
Some opposing views even come wrapped in the same wrapper it seems to me here on Wings. And maybe I can be blamed for something that seems like an opposing view in my own writing, but I am seeing what people could see as an opposing view and they not yet have the picture maybe.
One opposing view (in my view) within a certain person’s writing is a very strong voice for advocacy for the victims on the one hand (thankful for that), but some pretty strong religious language against people that may be truly God’s children that the Holy Spirit may be having true fellowship with – the very ones that may also be CSA victims of the enterprising ones in the church. But because the golden calf of religious enterprise has said that such-and-such people are wrong, wrong, wrong and will never be allowed to be clothed with God’s Garment ..well it seems to me that advocacy of the abused is good to them (I agree), unless of course hammering them for getting a divorce or them getting married again (or a few other things) is more important to religious enterprise (I disagree). Are we a people that advocate for change, but just please don’t push back on our notions of superiority too far? For we say in so many words, it is written right here on the golden calf. What would religious enterprise do without the golden calf? They wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. Ah! The golden calf saved the day, starting in the 1400’s; Christ was taking too long to come down from the mountain. And mankind lusted after what their eyes could behold. We will call it the image of God and shape it howsoever it looks good and pleasing to us. And shape it they did …about 40,000 different ways, all to different people’s liking and interpretation.
So let me move on further up the road of advocacy and further get up many people’s noses. I am going to say ‘good on ya mates’ to the overseers in Australia and NZ for taking a bold step in even making a website, in broadcasting an apology to the global feathership where birds of a feather flock together.
I do agree that it is maybe a year late, and do agree that deep down it could be but lipstick on a pig, and do agree that it could be just a heap of some more pretty words. I also agree this may be some good jockeying in to position to employ some legal defense tactics against the long arm of the law. I do not know these things.
But I see it as the Aussies and Kiwi’s have some spine. They were willing to go it alone in this united, so united, so very, very united global feathership. Not saying in any way that they don’t have a mess to clean up in their own house, because I understand they do.
Now! Where to! Why did they have to go it alone? Because they were always islands unto themselves and had to figure it out on their own? I say they are a durable people, and not someone’s floozy. And if I had to guess, they may have made a suggestion to other nations or even invited other nations to join the movement to get something started at least in making a first step. They must have had to thumb their noses at the likes of Uncle Barry, and Uncle Ray, and Uncle Sam, and Uncle Dale…and so many other aunts and uncles! No?
I am actually quite surprised the South African’s have not said they will go it alone also and do something in the global feathership. In the apartheid era, they thumbed their noses at the rest of the world that backed away from them. I agree on the reason the world backed away from them, but they are a gutsy people with courage; also nobody’s floozy. But I think something has gone awry in the governance of those people’s. Maybe the tide is turning on the bad governance though. We will come to know.
I have worked in both countries. Before I worked in those countries, I felt they had a certain arrogance to them. But it was not long working in those countries that I realized their ego was a bit on the high side of the balance point for likely good reason. They had learned to stand up and go it alone, come what may.
And the UK in the feathership? What ever happened to them? I will likely get flack from people to suggest that it might have been good for Churchill to have been still around to lead the charge on defending the church and going to war against the despots within the church. He would have been 150 years old, but he likely would have got something done. But I spent five days in BC a few weeks ago with two guys from eastern Europe – I mentioned Churchill once and knew from the look on their faces I need not quote Churchill any more. One man’s hero is another man’s despot.
And speaking of the UK, what about the Irish? A strong people with a fighting spirit. No strangers to hardship! Northern Ireland knows a thing or two about going it alone. The ships left Ireland’s shores with the workers destined for God knew what lay ahead. Whatever happened?
So here we are. Do you think this global feathership will get it together and follow the Australian and New Zealand lead in making a good first step in admitting this three ring circus was too hush-hush? Where nonsense was covered and the money just evaporated? Haha. Not a chance. They are playing jester to the clowns. And the clowns of the other nations do not perceive. Look at their web address! They knew right well the rest of the world would have too much ego to get on board their lead.
Maybe most of the church are looking at the golden calf and have seen clearly, without a shadow of a doubt what it says there. Something about a three ringed circus is not easily broken. Thank heavens for the golden calf. that we can interpret as we please. What would religious enterprise do without it? The light sent from heaven for sure we say! We the people do so love the slight of the ‘right’ hand. The miracle of the yielded life to the golden calf is so fulfilling. And we all have our sundry views on what really is ‘God’s doing’. We may be all victims of religious enterprise actually, not just the victims that suffered sexual abuse within the church by enterprising individuals. We may have got our temporal eyes fixated too much on the golden calf that cannot speak, that cannot hear, and cannot see. Oh yes, it certainly can speak as you say – but mostly to the imaginations within our minds.
Anyone want to stuff their nationalistic or personal pride and desire for control in their pocket and join the Aussies and New Zealanders in their acceptable (to me at least) first step? My guess is, the AU’s and NZ’s would not be too proud to permit some collaboration. I could be wrong.
I will crawl back in my igloo now on the frozen tundra of Canada. I will be a good Canadian now and apologize for whatever someone thinks I need to apologize for. Whatever happened to our cajones in apologizing for the greater good though I do not know. Were they just snow balls we had tucked up tight? And you know the old saying about snowballs in hell, eh!? The Aussies are looking at us likely and thinking we peed our pants. I don’t think it is incompetence (something like incontinence but a wee difference) in general. Some just may have lost their vision in this country on who they want their leader(s) to be. The politics of religion and the religion of politics! Babylon across the world seems to be on shaky ground. Two islands have already fled, trying to distance themselves from the noisome sore revealed within the church. Some estimations have it that it will be 10-15 years or so before Euphrates dries up. Kick your feet up and relax everyone. Put on the tunes. You got time. Just keep your eye on the golden calf. No need to observe the truth coming in the cloud as we speak. And heaven forbid anyone would speak of spiritual fornication, spiritual adultery and spiritually being wed to another…in opposition to the One that once was (but for a short season until we got our eye on something else), but still wants to be our first love. You can thank religious enterprise for that. It was a short betrothal, but not something to talk about or concern ourselves with – but don’t dare separate from your first husband or wife! Hell fire awaits! Especially if you marry another! Fire the furnace double! They have it coming! The golden calf even said so!
I was working around the yard maybe six weeks or so ago and this little voice within moved me (with a bit of continual prompting for a while) to go and phone an elder that has shown great capacity to care (in my mind), a brother of an overseer and ask him as a brother in the church to ask his brother to stand down. I did get an ear full even though at the first of the conversation he said he would do more listening than talking. A most interesting listening period for me that helped me to get a bit clearer though on why things are the way they are and why change in the church may be but delusional thinking. But long story short, one of the things he told me tells me most people are in trouble along with the whole world of ‘christian’ religious thinking and we will not find our way out of this thing. He told me the bible was 100% true. That’s right up there near the top, no? Hard to beat that, no? Not much can outdo that score, right? Ya – the world has steaked their faith on the beast of religious enterprise, and the mark it made on mankind. The Christ gets but the backside of our affections – and the religious world cries foul …fake news. They say they have the Christ in focus. What can I say!? It looks like I have been outflanked. CSA may just have to organically remain within the church of the two by twos. Just make sure no one sees you let your hair down though. And cover up with the fig leaves of religious enterprise. There is great value in all looking like a virgin. If you all have the same uniform, it will promote good feathership. You all just need to get on the same page ….or chapter…or verse. Whatever. You can still read between the lines in a verse if need be. Not so easy to read between the lines in a Word though. Having said that though, I don’t underestimate the lawyers commissioned by religious and political enterprise. Your word? My word? His Word? How can we twist His Word to allow our client to get off?
And if you prefer two companion words travelling together, how about Love and Truth? Good friends, no? No need for a whole dumpster of nationalistic, religious, and political jibber-jabber rubbish I would think. But ya – I am guilty. I also used a lot of words to explain Love and Truth were goodly friends and beneficial neighbours. (flip! should I have spelled it neighbor?…sorry!) The managers of the ministry in the islands downunder have at least broadcast to the world some words of truth in their misdeeds. Time will tell how much love is in those words. And if they have any brakes and reverse gear in their campaign bus of religious enterprise to go back and help the victims.
Just my view. I am content to stand alone. Spit it out if you don’t like it. I do not apologize for that. Just take my writing with a grain of salt if you find it distasteful. And I am fairly certain – the rest of the world is taking the Australian and New Zealander leaders with a grain of salt. The other nations most likely think it is distasteful what they did. Oh well. Whatever. One man’s jealousy is another man’s envy. One man’s delicacy makes another man wretch. Do you think the rain will hurt the rhubarb?
Not trying to divide and conquer. I just had some notion to try to conquer the divide in the church. But alas, I do not think this is what is meant to be. It is foretold in the stars. Shall I interpret their alignment otherwise? Not going to ask religious enterprise about it. I used to buy into their astronomical philosophies that poo-poo’d the gravity of reality and the reality of gravity. Maybe they can add some wings to their golden calf to overcome the gravity of this situation in the church. And maybe some ears that can hear the cries of the downtrodden. And maybe add some eyes that can see. Better yet, some eyes front and rear so they can see where they have come from and where they are going to. That I can buy. Otherwise, what religious enterprise is selling, this Canadian ain’t buyin’. Regardless of NAFTA….or protection of someone’s turf of religious enterprise. There will be some bawling going on when their beloved golden calf just stands there idol and proves to be dumb at midnight. That is when you can tell Him with a flourish all the things you did and didn’t do for His sake. And you can rest assured remembering the days when the golden calf spoke to you with such great authority. But just don’t fall on your face now. It will be a sign of weakness. Can’t have that.
I have talked enough. Let’s sing a hymn now. How about 313. And sing it like you really want to know who Him is. And check that He is the only thing deep hidden in your heart. Not some other hims having a man’s name that profess they knew or know what is the purpose for your life. And they had/have hidden things in their heart that they want not to have uncovered. Some of those blokes or shielas may have had some other enterprising ideas how everyone in the world should think. It is called nationalist, religious pride, desiring authority and control over those that want to be the Bride. The genesis of the beast. Very adept at guile. Guile with a smile. (or is that a grin?) But it has a best-before date stamped on it. What happens after the best-before date, God only knows. But He has given us a glimpse, if anyone cares to look see. Are you one of the spiritual elect that could be deceived? Or are you one of the religious select that will be deceived? You might want to look see what you are bowing down to. Because this 2×2 enterprise has a pile of dirty laundry. They may also want to put the dirty money in the washing machine at the same time. And just putting it on spin cycle most likely will not cut it.
Thank you Australia 2×2’s and New Zealand 2×2’s for putting your pride in your pocket and at least apologizing and taking the first step to do something about these atrocities!
And thank you Wings for allowing freedom of speech!
I have been kicked of Christian ex 2×2 Facebook group for freedom of speech, I didn’t attack anyone, I was very polite as usual, but once again as with CCF the moderators were biased!
We don’t approve all posts, but generally they have to be off topic or nasty to not get approved. We are neutral 2×2. We want kids to be safe and survivors to be supported….that is what WINGS is all about.
Thanks BGM, that’s what I appreciate!
Do you mind sharing here what caused you to get kicked off of that site? Their name alone should indicate what the majority of their followers opinions are. I like the open discourse of this site. Let’s people use their own minds and experiences rather than just parroting. I actually learn a few things here. (of course, I don’t have blind faith in any human)
Yes that’s what I appreciate about this site aswell!
I won’t name the sin, last time when CCF kicked me of and I mentioned it here it caused a debate and made me feel guilty for it did go of topic.I was introducing myself on the Christian ex 2×2 site this week, I mentioned that I got kicked of CCF for saying X is a sin as all other sin’s are, the irony is that these x2 sites are supposedly Christian but they condone sin X that is clearly a sin according to God’s Word.If we decide what is sin or not sin we become our own little gods and can’t call ourselves Christians.
Interesting. A friend of mine said she could not even JOIN the “Christian ex 2×2” site because her beliefs did not fit their criteria. I am a follower of that site and they do seem to be quite biased in a single direction and NOT tolerant of opposing thought, to me. Much like some other exclusive sites.
I don’t find that approach very helpful or contributory to realistic solutions, seems cultish.
A site that doesn’t allow open dialogue (as long as it is respectful and considerate of other’s viewpoints) I would consider more of an effort to promote a specific agenda.
Not what I personally come to any discussion sites for. Moderators are usually a reflection of the sites content.
I find this one to be very open and conducted professionally, with a specific criminal target: CSA. Most comments reflect one’s opinion and thoughts on the matter, and are usually tolerable/tolerant and sometimes helpful, to me.
The comments on all these related-subject sites, I suspect, are some part of the FBI Investigation in total of the CSA issue.
I have NO inside knowledge but in other legal investigations I HAVE been involved in, both pros and cons are weighed as well as professional statistics, to determine if crime occurred.
Doctrine or personal thoughts have virtually no merit unless it is criminal as defined by law.
Social media is used as a gauge for such, including hate, tolerance, radicalism, supported factual evidence. (re: Twitter, FB, TikTok, etc. used for promoting an agenda on unknowns like Covid, tolerance, grooming, biases, Russian collusion, terrorism, etc.)
Thank you for your open response.
While any wrong doing is that..Wrong..we humans think that there is permissible wrong and other wrong. Its in human nathre with no escape from it.
The idea that we can put others in a position of ‘Been in the Wrong’ , by Judging them, is not a allowable thing if we want the God of Judgement looking kindly upon our own self. However we are Judging all day and every day the ACTIONS of people..and we have every responsibility to ensure we do this. Having tried to explain they are separate..and Must remain that way..separate.
Actions are the ‘sin’ and the people are the ‘sinners’..
The following reference in the Bible is words of Jesus.
John, chapter 8 , verses 3 to 11. Specifically verse 7..and I quote..” he who is Without Sin among you ,let him first cast a stone at her” .
This is saying if you have done no wrong (ever) then you are free to cast a stone.
Naming anyone anytime about anything they have done that is wrong..is Judging the Sinner..a very dangerous position to put ourself into.
I don’t condone CSA any less or more than any other wrong. All fall into the wrong category of actions. Yes wrong may have been or may yet be done..
Usuing a name for those who are Trying their best to follow the teachings of Jesus by labeling or naming them in any way is contrary to his teachings.. His own words were ..quote ..John, chapter 15, verse 14..” Ye are my Friends if you Do Whatsoever I Comand you” . The only time a name given by Jesus..and it comes with very clear requirements of Doing..and Whatsoever.Nothing more or less..so the ides of 2×2 or any other name is a man given label that serves to divide and destroy..
I hope this puts clarity on how we should veiw all others and their actions .
I agree Des. Thank you for your writing. Your writing will not all be understood from a religious 5000 foot single fly-by.
Religion that has created ‘them versus us’ groups will always create and even subtly promote a ‘their sin’ versus ‘my sin’ mentality. I lived in that world and it is hard to break from it. We create this world where we are better than others outside the camp, and that filters right into our own group think within the camp. People watch each other. And because of that, people cover up who they really are. Religious enterprise breeds a very insecure group of people. They have not the courage to live honestly. Knowing they would be forsaken from the group or not be ‘honoured’ by the workers and friends instills a fear in people. In my estimation, we are quite a fearful group of people.
So at the end of the day, people end up getting their eyes off the Christ and following each other, in a magic-and-make-belief world we have created for ourselves where people try their hardest to cover up with the most virgin look-alike garment they can get their hands on. Honour from others is a strong human motivator. And that includes determining all the sins one self does not struggle with, and then standing on a perch and preaching to others what they should do to be right with God. And the group ‘togetherness’ atmosphere breeds sexual assault of the vulnerable children within the church – all under the cloak of self righteousness of the group. But uncovering our own sores and blight? Not for the faint of heart – especially if one of a person’s needs in life is ‘to belong’ and be accepted by their peers.
We will come to know one day the cost of needing to belong to something that is not the Bridegroom. We will come to know maybe that the preaching really underestimated how jealous the Bridegroom really is. The preaching promoted this message – ‘belong to us’. And don’t dare tarnish the brand. Rather keep your real self hidden. And with it all came fear.
And yes, the organization likely should do something about their name. Right now they are kinda calling the religion by the Bridegroom’s names. When we said we had no name because Jesus said ‘go in my name’ – we may have overstepped our bounds a bit in adding two names despite what we promoted – we actually took his names and used them. Evidently (to me at least) there are consequences to religious pride and feelings of superiority.
Won’t say any more now. Gotta get to work. The work of digging deep in my own life. As I dig, I find more buried rubbish. And building blocks of wood, hay, and stubble I am finding laid on the foundation. Despite what Paul’s gospel was, not sure those kinda building blocks are going to stand the test of time and weather the storms. But whatever – others can believe what they want to believe. But they better have a heap of hope in that belief if they have not tested it in some manner.
God is the only one that has the authority to call something sinfull, He is the only judge, it is wise to agree with Him on what is sinfull according to His Word and not our own opinion.We don’t think twice calling CSA and SA sinfull aswell as criminal, why would we not call some sin’s sinfull if indeed it is so? Do we care more what man says or what God says?The avoidance of dealing with sin and criminal activities have led to the caos we see being revealed over the last year in this group.
I don’t want anyone to tell me that whatever sin I am struggling with is actualy not sin or to minimalize it, that would not be the loving thing to do as we clearly see portrayed in 1 Corinthians 5
@Louise. You bring up a very valid point about God having all authority over sin. Most of us realize we are sinners, we have failed and continue to fail. We are weak in the flesh. We are so glad that we met Gods son and we heard those words to our hearts. Neither do I condemn you go and sin no more. We accepted gladly His forgiveness and mercy. We paid nothing, it was a free gift. Wonderful when we realize that Jesus holds out that free gift to others, not just us.
@Amen- yes! A free gift! But now we have the power to overcome any sin, we won’t willfully continue sinning.But as you said we will still come short, our perfection will only come after death.
Why are churches lax against CSA (most acutely the 2×2 church) and other sins? Why do we see more abuse within church circles than in other organizations?
Bertrand Russell explains. He is probably referring to the RCC or the Church of England but the general idea fits for almost all church groups, particularly the 2×2 system in how the dynamics work and why churches don’t particularly foster virtue but allow terrible things to happen.
“The power of the priesthood depends upon its ability to decide whether you shall go to Heaven or to Hell, and, in the former event, how long you shall spend in Purgatory. What must you do in order to be among the fortunate? Must you lead a virtuous life? Must you love your neighbor, as Christ ordained? Or must you obey the still more difficult precept to sell all you have and give to the poor? No, you need do none of these things. Getting to Heaven is a matter of red tape, like getting to a foreign country in war time.
First, you must avoid heresy, that is to say, you must believe everything that the Church tells you to believe. You need not know what the dogmas of the Church are, because that is difficult except for educated theologians, but you must hold no opinions contrary to these dogmas, and, if you ever feel tempted to do so, you must abandon the dangerous opinions as soon as you are officially informed that they are that they are not orthodox.
As regards conduct, you need not avoid sin; indeed, it is heretical to suppose that you can. You are sure to sin, but that need not trouble you provided you take the proper steps. There are seven deadly sins; if you commit any of these, and die before taking the proper steps, you will burn in Hell, but all can be forgiven to those who go through the correct routine. You must first tell some priest all about it, and profess due penitence. He can then absolve you, but may impose a penance as the condition of absolution. You are now safe from hell fire, so far as that particular sin is concerned, but to shorten your time in purgatory there are various things that it is wise to do, most of which increase either the power or the income of the priesthood. If you have enough money, you can commit a great many sins and nevertheless get to Heaven pretty soon. The more sins you commit, the more the Church profits by the steps you have to take to mitigate the punishment.
This system is very convenient both for priests and for sinners, but it is preposterous to pretend that it promotes virtue. What it does promote is mental docility and abject fear. This is the true power of the Church, entirely based on irrational beliefs, to find a path to control and sadistically punish. And the ultimate cure, in all these forms of mental tyranny, is freedom of thought. In a word, on all the most important subjects you must never think for yourself.“
— Bertrand Russell, Understanding History and Other Essays (1957), Ch. II: The Value of Free Thought, pp. 53-4
Junior Jones-
Exactly, I agree they should allow open dialogue as long as it’s done respectfully and considered of other’s viewpoints.They were intolerant of my viewpoint, I actually felt they tried to shame me into submitting to their views, it was the minority on the site, but it was still allowed, I was only on the site for x2 days, then got blocked without any warning, same with CCF.
The sad thing is I was really looking for people who left the 2×2’s for support, oh well it’s most likely a blessing in disguise.
Yes I find Wings For Truth very open and professional aswell!